Phoenix

100

Bush knocked down the towers

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12clicks

your schooling means nothing compared to the engineers schooling and experience.
The only thing I have loyalty to is common sense and the truth.
pretending to understand everything tfrom the expression on the president's face further undermines your credibility.

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12clicks

this is an absolute lie. Anyone familiar with the towers knows how thick the outer walls are and narrow the windows are because they did support the floors.

more lies. watch this video closely and you see the building begin to pancake exactly where the fire was burning.
http://911research.wtc7.net/wtc/evid...tml#northtower


continued lies. I guess in your zeal to reach the conclusion you *wanted* instead of the truth, it never occurred to you that the dust was created by tons and tons of sheetrock, eh?

yeah, because everyone knows that a fire buring out of control in a building will never cause its collapse.

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StuBradley

Yes, your "rational thought" would tell you this. However, anyone who knows about engineering will tell you that this cannot be true. If it were true, then the exterior facade would have to be about 10 feet thick (at the base of the tower) as it would be supporting the weight of the entire building (109 floors) above it.

The only reasonable way to build a steel and concrete structure (over 100 feet high or more) is to have a central core that carries the load combined with a glass (or in this case glass and steel) facade. Get out your phone book and look up a random structural engineer or commercial architect in your city. Ask them if this is true, since you seem to belittle my knowledge every chance you get.

I agreed that the pancake theory was possible. All I am asking is that IF the floors pancaked where was the 800 foot high UNDAMAGED steel core of the north tower? Even if they somehow toppled over it's tough to miss 40 some 800ft. long solid steel colums.

Instead they found no pieces of debris larger than 30 feet or so. Which means that these 800ft. long steel colums (which were previously undamaged and designed to hold the weight of the entire building and then some) snapped into at least 27 pieces each (800ft./30ft. =26.66666). This seems rational to you?

Actually, I thought that is what it was for the longest time. Until I read that the powder that covered most of the city later in the day was comprised primarily of powdered concrete. That does not make sense to me but then again I am stupid and uneducated.

Well it's never caused a tall steel structure to collapse in the past...ever. So I'm not sure what you are trying to say. There are similar buildings that have burned out of control for more than 24 hours and yet they stood tall.



One more thing...does this fire really look 'out of control' to you?

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Scootermuze

NIST?s findings do not support the ?pancake theory? of collapse, ......

Here

However... I agree 100% that the building began a straight downward collapse, then began to topple... But.. your intelligent engineers said that the bldg. lunged forward and fell.. not very observant of them..

notabook

I take it you never actually read the STARR report huh =(

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12clicks

every chance I get?
I've never noticed you existed before your attack post.
now, I'm sure that your here slinging porn because of your exceptional knowledge of building so these links will mean nothing to you but we've already seen that you aren't interested in the truth, just your version.
http://www.civil.usyd.edu.au/wtc.shtml
http://www.civil.usyd.edu.au/latest/wtc_graphic.gif



They were destroyed, just as the exterior columns were. read my link.

this is another lie.
plenty of pieces bigger than 30ft.:


you got a link for that story?

here's what I read:
Lioy and his collaborators examined the dust using microscopic, inorganic, organic, and particle size fractionation analysis. They found plaster, paint, foam, glass fibers and fragments, fiberglass, cement, vermiculite (used as a fire retardant instead of asbestos), chrysotile (asbestos), cotton fibers and lint, tarry and charred wood, and soot

The USGS team also analyzed WTC dust using scanning electron microscopy (SEM) and X-ray diffraction analysis. Like Lioy's group, USGS scientists discovered a complex mixture of materials: glass fibers (up to 40% in some samples), gypsum (wallboard), concrete, paper, and other construction debris. "I was just amazed at how many glass fibers there were," Meeker said. The high concentration of glass was due partially to windows, but primarily to ceiling tiles. SEM revealed that much of the glass was present as odd-shaped fibers and spheres. "It's not an effect of the collapse," Meeker said. These compositions are compatible with "slag wool," a common component of ceiling tiles and other building materials.

All of the samples were very alkaline. Aqueous suspensions of Lioy and Chen's dust samples ranged from pH 9 to 11.5. Nobody was surprised by the high pH values, which are mainly due to cement dust. CaOH, CaCO3, and CaSO4 from cement, wallboard, and other construction materials permeated the samples.

http://pubs.acs.org/cen/NCW/8142aerosols.html

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Scootermuze

I read your link..

It is possible that the blaze, started by jet fuel and then engulfing the contents of the offices, in a highly confined area, generated fire conditions significantly more severe than those anticipated in a typical office fire. These conditions may have overcome the building's fire defences considerably faster than expected. It is likely that the water pipes that supplied the fire sprinklers were severed by the plane impact, and much of the fire protective material, designed to stop the steel from being heated and losing strength, was blown off by the blast at impact.

It is possible? conditions may have? It is likely?
This is what I was talking about earlier.. Lots of speculation and opinions..

Scootermuze

Science, Engineering, and Speculation
Thomas W. Eagar and Christopher Musso


It is known that structural steel begins to soften around 425°C and loses about half of its strength at 650°C.4 This is why steel is stress relieved in this temperature range. But even a 50% loss of strength is still insufficient, by itself, to explain the WTC collapse. It was noted above that the wind load controlled the design allowables. The WTC, on this low-wind day, was likely not stressed more than a third of the design allowable, which is roughly one-fifth of the yield strength of the steel. Even with its strength halved, the steel could still support two to three times the stresses imposed by a 650°C fire.


Thomas W. Eagar, the Thomas Lord Professor of Materials Engineering and Engineering Systems, and Christopher Musso, graduate research student, are at the Massachusetts Institute of Technology.

juz

You moonbats are funny
and no I am 100% positive its not a conspiracy, those who believe it is give way too much credit to this administration

Z

There is no possible way to leak what really happened to the public without a worldwide fallout.

So, let the peasants keep consuming and 'round and 'round it goes.

12clicks

all vastly more reasonble and sound than the tinfoil hat ideas.

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macmark

I never looked into 9/11 conspiracies until recently and when I did stumbled upon the work of David Ray Griffin. The official story(ie, 911 commission report) is akin to that of the single magic bullet theory. I found the following real interesting, especially:

David Ray Griffin - 911 Commission Report: Ommissions and Distortions
http://video.google.co.uk/videoplay?...+ray+gr iffin

9/11 Mysteries
http://video.google.co.uk/videoplay?...12003&q=9%2F11

911 revisted
http://video.google.co.uk/videoplay?...09939&q=9%2F11

Given the evidence provided by the 911 comission conspiracy theory and the so called other conspiracy theories. There's no doubt in mind mind which holds more water.

Jman

No but I beleive in the 7/11 Slurpy's ;-)

(bad joke blame it on the wine)

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Xplicit

I'll go as far as saying I believe the world trade center was a controled demolition.

Some of the conspiracy theories are WAY out there though.

Rochard

Yeah, our government planned it. Hundreds of people were involved, billions of dollars destroyed, and yet no one said a word. Right.

Yes, there are hundreds of unanswered questions. And there always will be. It could be valid reasons for this - security issues - or perhaps the govenment doesn't want to waste millions of dollars attempting to answer the never ending questions.

Everything that is being questioned seems easily explained to me.

Does it look like there were little explosions down the side of the WTC as they fell? In fact, it does. And I'm guessing that when millions of pounds of concrete come crashing down the air pressure alone could cause that.

Why does it look like the hole in the Pentagon is so small? Maybe it's because it hit a wall of 16 foot concrete and the damn concrete didn't budge? Need proof? Take a look at the WWII bomber that hit the Empire State Building in the 1940's. Where did the wings go? I have no idea. But you do honestly mean to tell me that 160 feet of wing span full of fuel didn't just vaporize on impact?

What about the hundreds of people that were on these airplanes? I guess someone just killed them all, right? Must have taken dozens of people to kill them all - yet no one felt guilty about this?

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EBORG9

Anything is possible with the Bush/Cheney connection.

Corona

I take just the opposite view.

Name one thing they have done in six years that leads you believe they have the competence to pull something like that off.

shekinah

No I didn't ...

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i don't feed into it anymore.

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GAMEFINEST

i rather have sex than waste time with that nonsense

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Compound interest.

Rochard

Other than the fact he looked like a donkey that day, Bush did right. The President of the United States doesn't run out of a room as if his hair is on fire - and even more so if he's in a room full of school kids.

Everyone needs to keep in mind that none of us understood the impact that morning would have on us. At that exact moment I knew more about what was going at in NYC than Bush did.

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Dirty Dane

Those conspiracy theories are all nonsense, because it would require and involve so many people that it would be impossible without a leak. Its like saying Pearl Harbor attack was a simulation x 100, because then they could nuke Japan.

d00t

the 9/11 conspiracies - ARE government conspiracies!!!! The Gov runs the conspiracies... don't you get it ????? That way they still control the population no matter what they believe!

macmark

But only the people at the very top need to know the whole situation. Since 9/11 many people you might consider involved have said many things which support an alternative conspiracy theory. Examples......

Bush himself said..."I don't know where bin Laden is. I have no idea and really don't care. It's not that important. It's not our priority"...whoops.

Bin Ladens FBI's most wanted page does not mention 9/11 once. When asked the FBI said they had no evidence Bin Laden was involved, hence the reason it is not mentioned.

When testifying to the 9/11 commission Secretary of Transportation Norman Mineta said "I was made aware of it during the time that the airplane coming into the Pentagon. There was a young man who had come in and said to the vice president, "The plane is 50 miles out. The plane is 30 miles out." And when it got down to, "The plane is 10 miles out," the young man also said to the vice president, "Do the orders still stand?" And the vice president turned and whipped his neck around and said, "Of course the orders still stand. Have you heard anything to the contrary?".....this statement was not mentioned in the 9/11 commission report once.

Larry Silverstein, owner of the WTC, said about WTC7: "I remember getting a call from the, er, fire department commander, telling me that they were not sure they were gonna be able to contain the fire, and I said, 'We've had such terrible loss of life, maybe the smartest thing to do is pull it.' And they made that decision to pull and we watched the building collapse".......he later said by 'pull it' he meant get the fire fighters out of the building, even though none were ever in it.

Two men who worked in the ground zero clean up claimed to have personally escorted the FBI to the location of the black box flight recorders, yet none claimed to have been found. Strangely, they did manage to find one of the hijackers passports :-/

It's pretty easy to silence people, simply mention their family. If they know the US administration was involved then I'm sure they know what they are capable of. Also, perhaps it doesn't take as many people involved as you think.

Even if you disgard the demolition theory altogether there is enough evidence to suggest without any reasonable doubt that there was a HUGE cover up. I dunno how anyone can rationally disregard that.

Dirty Dane

Taken out of context. The important thing was the network. And several of the leaders have been killed or taken. Laden is only the top of the iceberg.

Wrong. On FBI's page it also says: "In addition, Bin Laden is a suspect in other terrorist attacks throughout the world" and Airline Pilots Association and the Air Transport Association has put an reward on his capture.

Just because he did not know how many firemen was in the building does not prove anything. He was not the fireman commander. And it was a situation of chaos.

The recorders are not black, but orange.

That is just speculations. What some are capable of does not prove anything.

It would take ten thousands of people + a lot of corrupt experts afterwards, incl. those working for insurance companies?

Which evidences?

mingsmoker

it's NOT true....

thebossxxx

There would be too many people killed to keep their mouths shut if the conspiricies were all true..

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macmark

Meh, how am I wrong? I said 9/11 isn't mentioned and it isn't. Ergo, not wrong.


Jeez, are you for real? I thought pretty much everyone who know planes exist know they have flight recorders known as 'black boxes'. Yes, they are orange in color but they are known as black boxes. Look it up.


Seriously, if you're asking what evidence exists of a cover up then I assume you can't know much about it. Read the Commission Report, it's right there bold as brass.

I'm not saying I believe any particular alternative theory, but I certainly don't buy the official one.

They said the needed a new Pearl Harbour(PNAC), they got one and now they think they can do pretty much whatever they want on the back of it. Who benefits, the oil and defense contractors who want to stay in Iraq for as long as possible. War is good.

btw, I know you can do a lot of myth debunking, and again debunking those debunkings and we could all argue forever but one of the things that no-one has ever been able to explain is that fact that one of the passengers of Flight 93 made a *13 minute* cell phone call to his wife from above 29,000ft(FAA). Something many experts have said is IMPOSSIBLE, from that height, at that speed, in 2001 when no such technology was in place.

Not one of the myth busting sites can explain this one.