Do you buy traffic? Save money. Reasons why you should NEVER buy from traffic brokers - GoFuckYourself.com

ldinternet · 06-25-2002, 03:54 PM

This is a VERY long post, but keep with me. This should be common knowledge, but many people seem to forget this when confronted with the arguments of a broker with the smell of dollars in their nose. So... if you're buying traffic now, maybe read this and realise that you're being $hafted.

Everyone knows that brokers exist only to make a profit, if there was no profit in brokering traffic, then all the brokers would quit.

An example, giving by a member on this board, of buying a television from Walmart is faulty, at best. This person claims it is better to buy from Walmart than get to their suppliers, because Walmart buy in bulk, and so, get a lower price than you could ever get from the supplier. I'll elaborate later.

Unless their margin is a few cents, unlikely, then it would be a better deal to get directly to the supplier for two reasons.

I'll explain those in a second. But for now, cutting out the middle man is the business model of many successful finance, insurance, and electrical suppliers. They don't only supply their product, but they also manufacture it. An example of this would be CIS - probably the United Kingdom's largest and most successful insurance company. Although their goods are intangiable - much as traffic is - their business model is that of cutting out the middle man. They have A LOT of brokers. Zurich is a broker, and their rates are insane. Of course, if a customer went directly to CIS, they wouldn't get as good a deal as Zurich do, but they'd still save money.

So the first, and most beneficial aspect of cutting out the middle man is to get a lower price. Whether it is a thousand dollars, five dollars, or a few cents, it doesn't matter, as long as the price is lower.

Example. I went to Jessops Camera Store today and looked at the Canon Powershot G2. The price was £650.

If I could get direct to the supplier, I could get a lower price than that. Of course, the price I got would never be as good as the price that Jessops Camera Store pays for their stock. But the price would be less than the price they charge me. If Jessops go to their dealers, maybe they get their cameras at £400. If I go to the dealer, I'd have to pay £600. But, the price is still less than it would be if I bought from Jessops.

The supplier can and does not sell at a higher price to customers than they sell to their brokers. It would defeat the whole purpose of them running a business.

If the production cost of a camera is £100, and the supplier sells to me at £600, they make a profit of £500.

If the production cost of a camera is £100, and the supplier sells to Jessops at £400, they make a profit of £300.

It is more profitable to sell directly to me, even if it is at a higher price.

If you cut out the middle man, you ALWAYS get a better deal. There is no two ways about it.

The supplier would NEVER sell to me at a higher price than Jessops do. Because that encourages me to go to Jessops and buy a camera. And the supplier only makes a profit of £300 when Jessops buys from them. It is better to sell to me at a price SLIGHTLY less than Jessops do, but make a much larger profit.

It is the same principle with traffic brokers.

The second advantage to cutting out the broker, is to reduce the margin of error. Let us say that I'm buying 1000 visitors from you every day. If there is a problem with that traffic, I have to contact you. Then you've got to contact the dealer and say "hey, whats the deal with your traffic?". If I cut you out, I can mail the dealer directly and get a reply directly from the horse's mouth.

Whereas it may take you 5 hours to see my mail, and another 5 hours for the dealer to see your mail, then 5 hours for you to see the dealer's response, then 5 hours for me to see your response, there is 20 hours in total.

If I cut you out and get directly to the dealer, he takes 5 hours to see my mail, and 5 hours for me to see his reply. A total of 10 hours. Hence, the margin of error is reduced.

Just like if I buy from the camera store, and there is a problem with my camera. Lets say, a component breaks. I need to take it back into the store, who will then send the details to the dealer, who will return a component to the camera store, which I will need to go and pick up. If I cut out the camera store, I get direct to the dealer. I send them the details of the problem, they send the components right back to me. The margin of error is reduced, and the time for the problem to be fixed is reduced..

It is the same with traffic brokers, as you can see above.

Cutting out the middle man is the successful business model of MANY companies. I can't even think of an unsuccessful business that uses that model. Just like the insurance company CIS, online car dealers that cut out the middle man, or even the movie BLOW where George Jung cuts out the marijuana dealer and gets direct to the source in Mexico, cutting out the middle man DOES work.

And that ladies & gentlemen, is why you shouldn't use brokers. Ever. Of course brokers are going to protect their business - they make money from it. Brokers exist ONLY to make a profit. If you're a newbie and don't want to have to negotiate, or don't know HOW to negotiate prices with a dealer, then you're probably better to stick to a broker. But you'll be wasting money.

Get a better deal and cut out your broker.

Opinions?

ldinternet · 06-25-2002, 03:57 PM

Just some basic information.

Now, I really should get back to some heavy revisions. Got exams to the end of June, and external exams RIGHT into the middle of August. Sucks.

fuel123 · 06-25-2002, 04:02 PM

This is going to win the DVD no doubt. I love stuff like this.

fuel

salsbury · 06-25-2002, 04:10 PM

you'll find *very* few circumstances where a supplier will sell you 1 item for less than what it goes for at retail. the supplier will probably sell it to you for MSRP, and retailers discount the MSRP to give you an incentive to shop there. maybe it's different in UK, but that's how it is in the US.

this is in the supplier's best interests. they don't want to have to deal with shipping items out to individuals all day - if they did they'd be in retail themselves, mail-order style. they want you to go to the retail shops and buy it from them - someone else to deal with the customer, handle the checks/creditcards/chargebacks/bounced checks, etc. so i think your analogy is flawed.

DrGuile · 06-25-2002, 04:14 PM

try any company website, than go over to pricewatch.com and see if its cheaper direct from the manifacturer...

thats one useless long post...

Jon · 06-25-2002, 04:14 PM

well since a lot of people will be reading this post, those of you who are not the brokers of traffic contact me - [email protected]
lets start a "fuck the brokers" uprising.

ldinternet · 06-25-2002, 04:19 PM

But. Even when the pricing is similar to that of the broker, you'll get the satisfaction of cutting the broker out. I know I would.

The camera store example is flawed, but only slightly. When it comes to buying and selling traffic online, guys that are selling traffic aren't comparable to big time business in terms of costing. It was used purely as an example - their net profit isn't tens of millions of dollars every year, and they are in a position to cut buyers a good deal. Especially someone that may want to buy 100k traffic per day. I'd rather get that from a reputable dealer than Mr. Broker.

Buying traffic, as always, pricing is relative to traffic volume. One of the few circumstances I can think of where a dealer would refuse to sell to anyone OTHER than a broker, is when the dealer does not want to deal with extremely small transactions. But, anyone buying a small amount of traffic wouldn't make such a great saving by going directly to the dealer.

To buy large amounts of traffic from a broker without at least contacting the dealer (if you know who it is) to make them an offer would be INSANE. The worse they can say is no.

Hey... maybe I'll contact my hosting company and ask them to bring down my hosting by $5 per MB/sec. I lose nothing... they worse they can say is NO. Same principle when it comes to traffic. Just contact the dealer if you know who it is, and see what they have to offer you.

Sure. Any big purchaser would already know that. But recently I see people buying huge amounts of traffic from brokers. ;-)

FierceHost · 06-25-2002, 04:28 PM

Waist of typing, people buy traffic, to sale their product, boost their tgp, or many other things. If the people new how to receive the traffic other ways they probably would, or if they had the knowledge. The purpose for buying it is, because they want the traffic, and to some (with money) it's easier to buy it, then work for it.

ldinternet · 06-25-2002, 04:36 PM

But, I'm not suggesting that anyone work for that traffic instead of buying it. Simply presenting information for open eyes.

People can either take it, or leave it. Sure it is a useless post for many people, old timers, old hands in this biz. It is all common knowledge.

But if it cuts out one broker on one traffic deal, then, it was worth it.

kmanrox · 06-25-2002, 04:48 PM

very well written, but it makes no sense....

so you are saying, in essence, that we should not buy clothes from the stores, that we should make our own, or go to malaysia and pick up some jeans for ourselves?

is your big epiphany essentially tell us to start welding our own car and stop buying them from the dealers? if so, i haven't the slightest idea how to make rubber for the tires, do rubbr trees even grow in california?

perhaps, PERHAPS we should even start driving around our cities and collecting the 'garage sale' info from the peper plates stapled to the telephone poles, write up a list, then go hit up some garage sales instead of gettin the newspapwer which consolidates this in a timely manner, and has a good reputation?

this is pretty fun, i could sit here all day and have fun with you LD, but i have to look after my programmer who is programming a 100% automated, on-the-fly traffic brokering system that will not only broker tgp feeder traffic, but also gallery listings etc....

you see, the purpose of my form of brokering is to combine the hits from many sources, track it securely, and then send the targeted hits to the customers..... or would you prefer to track all of the feeder traffic you are buying and deal with 15 webmasters, all via e-mail, 10 hours there 10 hours back, if you need a link change thats 300 hours.... ouch

come back down to reality, its not as bad as you think

kmanrox · 06-25-2002, 04:49 PM

and that is officially the most amount of time ive ever spent on a post on GFY

Choker · 06-25-2002, 04:56 PM

ldinternet, very good post. you bring up some very good points, but you are also giving only examples that lien torwards your views on this.

First and foremost, I sell traffic cheaper in most cases than if you went to the supplier yourself. Many suppliers give me exclusive prices because they know I will buy a lot of traffic from them without bothering them with newbie questions, and they know I will not try to rip them off. I buy a lot of traffic from many different sources, mix it up to get a good mixture of quality and sell it. You as a buyer can't do this easily. Do you think guys want to go to 50 different suppliers, and try one at a time?? How many are going to screw him out of 50?? He is taking a big chance. With a reputable broker this should not happen. You are paying his prices not just for the traffic, but for his knowledge and know how. He knows what kind of traffic is best for your site. And the assurance that you will not get ripped off is worth a lot of money too. If you don't want to use a broker to buy traffic, then don't. There are plenty of people who don't know who to trust when buying traffic or don't have the time to deal with 20 different sources of traffic. Why should they when one person like me can do it for them for the same price if not cheaper than they can do theirself?
I have NEVER ripped anyone off, and never will. The only negative post about me you will ever see is from that faggot Pipecrew who I have never had any dealings with. He is just jealous of anyone who succeeds.

kmanrox · 06-25-2002, 05:05 PM

choker you ripped me off fucker

kmanrox · 06-25-2002, 05:06 PM

ahahaha j/k!!!!

ldinternet · 06-25-2002, 05:10 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by kmanrox
very well written, but it makes no sense....

so you are saying, in essence, that we should not buy clothes from the stores, that we should make our own, or go to malaysia and pick up some jeans for ourselves? is your big epiphany essentially tell us to start welding our own car and stop buying them from the dealers? if so, i haven't the slightest idea how to make rubber for the tires, do rubbr trees even grow in california? perhaps, PERHAPS we should even start driving around our cities and collecting the 'garage sale' info from the peper plates stapled to the telephone poles, write up a list, then go hit up some garage sales instead of gettin the newspapwer which consolidates this in a timely manner, and has a good reputation?

LOL. Okay Kman. ;) Both to Choker and Kman...
Same point that many people have made, or will make.

It is to be expected that brokers defend their business. I respect that, people wil defend their opinion. In the heat of business, that is only fair.

You made an example of making your own jeans. But, you wouldn't usually think of the factory outlet stores. It is a steal if you can get the same jeans for $10 less, if there happens to be an outlet in your town. But nobody is going to drive across a dozen states just to get to a Levi Factory Outlet.

Its a matter of convenience... of course. I wish I had all the answers. But, if it takes me an hour to go directly to the dealer on a traffic deal, and I save a few hundred bucks, then its worth it.

Usually it would be better for me to get directly to the dealer. I could save $400 or $500 a week by getting direct to the dealer.

But that model doesn't work for everyone, and it all depends on the situation. Under certain circumstances - like, I needed some filtered Asian traffic - I would go to a broker (even though I'd still negotiate on price). But for more general circumstances, I'd like to get directly to the dealer.

Always a matter of convenience. People will always use whichever method is most effective... for me, where the ease exists, I'd rather get directly to the dealer. But that doesn't mean I'm going to drive 500 miles to save 10 cents on a tin of beans. Just the thought that people should consider their investment before handing the cash over... maybe a sample of traffic would be nice too. I wouldn't buy a new car without test driving it first.

I do respect brokers. Well... some of them. They do some great work, and can cut special deals - for example, on filtering or customer relations. Such as Choker, whom I have only heard good things about. I'm not making the point that brokers are ALWAYS useless. And I apologise if it appears that way, because thats not the point that I'm really trying to make. Consider this...

The first post was made from my point of view. That is to be expected. My way of business - that is, trying to get direct to the dealer and negotiate a price - doesn't work for everyone and isn't applicable in all situations, but people SHOULD consider it as an option before making an investment, if that option is available and applies to their needs. Its all I'm really trying to say. ;-)

DrGuile · 06-25-2002, 05:19 PM

if there wasnt a need for traffic brokers, there wouldnt be any brokers...

next...

kmanrox · 06-25-2002, 05:19 PM

convenience/efficiency + competitive prices amongst brokers + REPUTABLE, ESTABLISHED broker = happy client

plain and simple LD....

what on earth posessed you to make such a post? it's pointing out the obvious, let me sum it up for you if i may;

the world according to LDInternet

if you have all the time in the world to haggle and manage a million things at once, and search the world over for great prices, and nothing better to do with your time, then you should not use a broker...

-

if time is of the essence, you have a reliable broker, and you need targeted traffic, at a competitive rate, call a broker

KRosh · 06-25-2002, 05:20 PM

I have found in this business people will not deal with you directly unless you have a relationship with them. Then you have to spend time getting to know who has traffic and will sell it to you.

There is a lot of leg work that would go in to this for someone who doesn't have much experience. A broker is the only option at this point.
The "retail" examples do not apply in these cases.

BTW... IDinternet here is a challenge for you...
Try to purchase a Cannondale Bicycle directly from the manufacturer and tell me what happens...

ldinternet · 06-25-2002, 05:20 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by kmanrox
and that is officially the most amount of time ive ever spent on a post on GFY

Did you narrate whilst someone typed it out?

ldinternet · 06-25-2002, 05:23 PM

I already covered that guys. Of course, it is pointing out the obvious. It is all common knowledge. There aren't always multiple options available, but I for one will exploit them where available.

Read my last "longer than one sentence" post. It is all in there, and I know (I think) that I covered all bases with that one. At least I intended to.

Choker · 06-25-2002, 05:32 PM

Quote:

choker you ripped me off fucker

Busted, I confess Kman. But I only did it so the pole smoking Pipecrew would have proof that I am a thief. He has been wanting a piece of my ass for a long time.

ldinternet · 06-25-2002, 05:37 PM

Choker,

Whats the deal with Pipecrew? Or is it none of my biz?

Choker · 06-25-2002, 05:46 PM

Quote:

Choker,Whats the deal with Pipecrew? Or is it none of my biz?

He is one of these guys who hovers over this board, attacking people for fun. He has made many false accusations against me and many other people. Yet he has never done any business with me. He is just a jealous old-timer who gets his rocks off by trying to belittle people. He threatens to image source people he does not like. He is a bully. And I hate bullies.

G Sharp · 06-25-2002, 05:51 PM

Interesting THESIS. Analysis on the SUPPLY SIDE: Problem is, manufacturers often charge direct buyers more than they charge their distributors becuase the direct buyer does not have VOLUME purchasing power.

Think of it this way: If I have paysites that generate XX amount of exit traffic per day and it cost me YY amount to generate that traffic, would I sell it to a person who contracts for ALL of this traffic for a whole YEAR [the broker--distributor] or do I sell it for more piecemeal to direct buyers? Before you choose the latter option, note that there are a lot of costs involved in recruiting direct buyers, plus also customer service issues.

It all boils down to ECONOMIES OF SCALE--the larger the broker commits to distribute, the lower my costs, the more comfortable I feel in selling to him/her all my output for near the cost of production. I still make a profit and skip on the hassle...and rest assured on continuing demand.

Brokers, whether they broker real estate, stocks, or porno traffic, exist for a reason. They act as reservoirs of demand in a fragmented and dispersed market.

DEMAND SIDE ANALYSIS: Brokers build a reputation on their ability to deliver inventory. There is an efficiency built into a relationship where a party is specialized in sourcing, costing, and delivering supply in a consistent way. Sure, it can sometimes be cheaper to go to the supplier ourselves, but supply is not assured. Moreover, buying your supply from a broker benefits from the psychological dependence the supplier has on the broker. The supplier wants to please the broker because this person is a volume buyer, so the supplier is more willing to please the customer as opposed to a scenario where the customer approached the supplier directly. Unless you're HUGE, you are a one time shot to the supplier and service/quality may suffer.

So based on an analysis from both the Supply and Demand side of this economic relationship, the broker is a necessity in today's economy--whether online or offline, whether adult or mainstream. To use a final historical analysis, there have been brokers for thousands of years, the dynamics discussed above worked 5000 years ago as well as they work today.

The broker is here to stay.

ldinternet · 06-25-2002, 05:56 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by G Sharp
Moreover, buying your supply from a broker benefits from the psychological dependence the supplier has on the broker. The supplier wants to please the broker because this person is a volume buyer, so the supplier is more willing to please the customer as opposed to a scenario where the customer approached the supplier directly.

A factor that I didn't consider beforehand. But, an essential one. Definately something to think about.

That relates to the theory that a business may treat ALL customers well. But, it'll treat the bigger ones better.

Uncle Moe · 06-25-2002, 06:15 PM

My eyes hurt from reading.

2spy · 06-25-2002, 06:47 PM

i buy traffic from choker-----------it helps get me going

I have no complaints

FATPad · 06-25-2002, 07:35 PM

No matter what the industry, middlemen are there for one reason...convenience. And you pay for that convenience.

Cogitator · 06-25-2002, 08:48 PM

Get a life.

Steve · 06-25-2002, 09:13 PM

What do I say to Choker when he asks if I have traffic for sale?
1)yes, I can send you this amount per day
2)no, I need to keep what little I have at the moment.

What do I say to anyone else who ICQs/e-mails me and wants to buy traffic?
1)Sorry, I do not have any traffic for sale.

Why would I deal with a broker, and not a single individual? Simple, I do not want to deal with a single indivual. Let the broker put up with their shit. That's what he has to do to earn that mark-up. My idea of customer service is a baseball bat. A broker displays a bit more skill in dealing with customers.

hahmike · 06-26-2002, 04:17 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Cogitator
Get a life.

you're to dumb to have an opinion, so shut the fuck up.

'tard.

a1ka1ine · 06-26-2002, 04:22 AM

i only want 10k of uniques a month, which is pretty small... you reckon any major sites would want to bother with a small $50-$60 deal like that??

..

=/

ldinternet · 06-26-2002, 04:29 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by ldinternet
One of the few circumstances I can think of where a dealer would refuse to sell to anyone OTHER than a broker, is when the dealer does not want to deal with extremely small transactions.

Quote:

Originally posted by ldinternet
But, anyone buying a small amount of traffic wouldn't make such a great saving by going directly to the dealer.

I already made a point of that guys. I'm not going to repeat myself.

Choker · 06-26-2002, 10:02 AM

Quote:

i only want 10k of uniques a month, which is pretty small... you reckon any major sites would want to bother with a small $50-$60 deal like that??

Yes, I do. You can buy say $50 worth of traffic (clicked or exit) from me however often you want. In your stats admin area, you can adjust your hourly force to whatever you want per hour. You can even start and stop your traffic flow from me whenever you want. I give my buyers complete control over the traffic they buy. If your site goes 404, you just turn my traffic to you off. And then turn it back on when you want.

pr0 · 06-26-2002, 10:54 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Choker

Yes, I do. You can buy say $50 worth of traffic (clicked or exit) from me however often you want. In your stats admin area, you can adjust your hourly force to whatever you want per hour. You can even start and stop your traffic flow from me whenever you want. I give my buyers complete control over the traffic they buy. If your site goes 404, you just turn my traffic to you off. And then turn it back on when you want.

Mmmmm like a well lubed faucet

So choker you have your own admin area to do that? Thats actually pretty impressive. Kudo's.

hahmike · 06-26-2002, 11:07 AM

pr0 can suck my untitled second page and broken email link.

Choker · 06-26-2002, 11:58 AM

Quote:

So choker you have your own admin area to do that?

Yes, all my buyers can set a maximum hourly force. If they set say 500 an hour, they will receive usually 300 to 500 an hour depending on how heavy my traffic is. The load is balanced thru out all the buyers so even if say 3 1000 an hour buyers all set their force at maximum at the same time, the other buyers will barely notice the decline in hourly traffic to them. The bad side of this is that if my traffic is very heavy, I may send almost double their hourly force. Not much I can do about this though. This is an indicater to me that I need to sell some more.

Za Ha · 06-26-2002, 01:36 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by kmanrox

so you are saying, in essence, that we should not buy clothes from the stores, that we should make our own, or go to malaysia and pick up some jeans for ourselves?

Great line!

ToyBoys · 06-26-2002, 03:42 PM

ya you also forget a few other things

A traffic broker spends jis time making sure that your account does well and that both sides are happy... If the deal doesn't run properly, guess who doesn't get paid and has no other source of income.

The broker also knows people and has many contacts, you shoudl be too busy building yer sites and working on them rather than marketing them. The broker does that for you.

Also the broker can watch yer traffic constantly and always hits you up when he/she hears of new deals.. Most likely you would not if you are working as hard as you should be.

Many brokers charge a very small fee avergaing around 10%. not a bad price to pay to have someone watching over your stuff.

By cutting out the middle man? are you referring to the buyer/seller thatthe broker brought to you? So they do all the work and you decide to cut them out? Where would you be had that broker not come to you witha biz opp... ? But hey fuck them up.

They act just like travel agents, sports agents, stock brokers
same setup... you need something. they know the people, and where to go to get it...

And if you think they do nothing and just take yer money.. you are a fool. They work their asses off, not only pleasing you, but the other partner involved.. They talk to people about anything and everything and are very reliable and are serving you.

Ever thought about a waitress's job, why don'd you just go visit the cook and get your food? why do you tip them? Because not only do they do their job, a good waiter/waitress will make sure that you havew everything that you need.

I am not speaking on behalf of every broker, because some do take advantage of the situation and are dishonest. I just know of many brokers in this industry that work their asses off and watch yer traffic every minute making sure that everything is working out well

if you want to cut them out... well go for it. but have fun, it's one of the most demanding jobs in this industry.

Socks · 06-26-2002, 05:46 PM

Choker will get my business for the simple reason he's the only motherfucker out here busting his ass to make sure he gets my business. It's just good business.

meRx · 06-26-2002, 06:19 PM

Gotta agree with socks ,
Ive been looking at buying traffic for july some time and i think choker will be who i check with first. He just sounds like an honest motha who is straight and on top of his traffic bizz.

Za Ha · 06-26-2002, 08:54 PM

so who are the TOP 5 brokers?

ANd why?

kmanrox · 06-26-2002, 08:57 PM

PeekHoles · 06-26-2002, 09:10 PM

Choker aren't you making a board for traffic sources besides yours. So you know if Choker recommends someone there going to be straight up.

BV · 06-26-2002, 09:38 PM

Good brokers are experts in the field wich they are brokering. Besides the fact of taking a huge amount of work off your back they keep prices lower than if you were buying directly. This is accomplished in many ways and there are many factors involved, especially when you are buying a volatile comodity.
I broker "cut foliage" in the mainstream world, and if my customers tryed to buy directly they would get fucked in a heartbeat.

Just take my word for it cause it's true, seen it happen not only in my field but in several others too.

Cheers,
BV

RedShoe · 06-26-2002, 09:56 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by ldinternet
Cutting out the middle man is the successful business model of MANY companies. I can't even think of an unsuccessful business that uses that model. Just like the insurance company CIS, online car dealers that cut out the middle man, or even the movie BLOW where George Jung cuts out the marijuana dealer and gets direct to the source in Mexico, cutting out the middle man DOES work.

Get a better deal and cut out your broker.

Opinions?

Ld, Ld, Ld... Buddy you know I've always considered your advice to be gold. When I was just a wee Newbie, I used to save your advice (and other helpful webmasters') in text files, and go over them later.

But LD, have you gone mad?? You're using George Jung as a business model???? That dude is going to DIE in prison.

Are you suggesting that I kill Kman, Chocker, and Lane to get good traffic? ?

J/K good post

Like everything, I'll take the advice into consideration.

ldinternet · 06-27-2002, 05:44 AM

I don't remember recommending that anyone tries to fly in 660lbs of dope from Mexico...

Jung is used purely as an example, in the way that he cut his cash outflow. He hit a small snag with the fact that his business was illegal... but the same methods can be applied just as well to legitimate business to bring in a higher net profit percentage.

The most likely reason you're not a billionaire yet is because you listened to my advice.

j/k

... not that I ever give bad info (unless people mis-interpret it, which seems to happen frequently

)

Alright, the first thing you need to know about smuggling drugs, is that it's easy. The DEA are a bunch of losers. They couldn't find their dicks in a whorehouse. They don't know what the fuck they're doing...

06-25-2002, 03:54 PM	#1
ldinternet Confirmed User Join Date: Apr 2001 Posts: 8,245	Do you buy traffic? Save money. Reasons why you should NEVER buy from traffic brokers This is a VERY long post, but keep with me. This should be common knowledge, but many people seem to forget this when confronted with the arguments of a broker with the smell of dollars in their nose. So... if you're buying traffic now, maybe read this and realise that you're being $hafted. Everyone knows that brokers exist only to make a profit, if there was no profit in brokering traffic, then all the brokers would quit. An example, giving by a member on this board, of buying a television from Walmart is faulty, at best. This person claims it is better to buy from Walmart than get to their suppliers, because Walmart buy in bulk, and so, get a lower price than you could ever get from the supplier. I'll elaborate later. Unless their margin is a few cents, unlikely, then it would be a better deal to get directly to the supplier for two reasons. I'll explain those in a second. But for now, cutting out the middle man is the business model of many successful finance, insurance, and electrical suppliers. They don't only supply their product, but they also manufacture it. An example of this would be CIS - probably the United Kingdom's largest and most successful insurance company. Although their goods are intangiable - much as traffic is - their business model is that of cutting out the middle man. They have A LOT of brokers. Zurich is a broker, and their rates are insane. Of course, if a customer went directly to CIS, they wouldn't get as good a deal as Zurich do, but they'd still save money. So the first, and most beneficial aspect of cutting out the middle man is to get a lower price. Whether it is a thousand dollars, five dollars, or a few cents, it doesn't matter, as long as the price is lower. Example. I went to Jessops Camera Store today and looked at the Canon Powershot G2. The price was £650. If I could get direct to the supplier, I could get a lower price than that. Of course, the price I got would never be as good as the price that Jessops Camera Store pays for their stock. But the price would be less than the price they charge me. If Jessops go to their dealers, maybe they get their cameras at £400. If I go to the dealer, I'd have to pay £600. But, the price is still less than it would be if I bought from Jessops. The supplier can and does not sell at a higher price to customers than they sell to their brokers. It would defeat the whole purpose of them running a business. If the production cost of a camera is £100, and the supplier sells to me at £600, they make a profit of £500. If the production cost of a camera is £100, and the supplier sells to Jessops at £400, they make a profit of £300. It is more profitable to sell directly to me, even if it is at a higher price. If you cut out the middle man, you ALWAYS get a better deal. There is no two ways about it. The supplier would NEVER sell to me at a higher price than Jessops do. Because that encourages me to go to Jessops and buy a camera. And the supplier only makes a profit of £300 when Jessops buys from them. It is better to sell to me at a price SLIGHTLY less than Jessops do, but make a much larger profit. It is the same principle with traffic brokers. The second advantage to cutting out the broker, is to reduce the margin of error. Let us say that I'm buying 1000 visitors from you every day. If there is a problem with that traffic, I have to contact you. Then you've got to contact the dealer and say "hey, whats the deal with your traffic?". If I cut you out, I can mail the dealer directly and get a reply directly from the horse's mouth. Whereas it may take you 5 hours to see my mail, and another 5 hours for the dealer to see your mail, then 5 hours for you to see the dealer's response, then 5 hours for me to see your response, there is 20 hours in total. If I cut you out and get directly to the dealer, he takes 5 hours to see my mail, and 5 hours for me to see his reply. A total of 10 hours. Hence, the margin of error is reduced. Just like if I buy from the camera store, and there is a problem with my camera. Lets say, a component breaks. I need to take it back into the store, who will then send the details to the dealer, who will return a component to the camera store, which I will need to go and pick up. If I cut out the camera store, I get direct to the dealer. I send them the details of the problem, they send the components right back to me. The margin of error is reduced, and the time for the problem to be fixed is reduced.. It is the same with traffic brokers, as you can see above. Cutting out the middle man is the successful business model of MANY companies. I can't even think of an unsuccessful business that uses that model. Just like the insurance company CIS, online car dealers that cut out the middle man, or even the movie BLOW where George Jung cuts out the marijuana dealer and gets direct to the source in Mexico, cutting out the middle man DOES work. And that ladies & gentlemen, is why you shouldn't use brokers. Ever. Of course brokers are going to protect their business - they make money from it. Brokers exist ONLY to make a profit. If you're a newbie and don't want to have to negotiate, or don't know HOW to negotiate prices with a dealer, then you're probably better to stick to a broker. But you'll be wasting money. Get a better deal and cut out your broker. Opinions? Last edited by ldinternet; 06-25-2002 at 04:02 PM..

06-25-2002, 04:02 PM	#3
fuel123 Confirmed User Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: New York Posts: 340	This is going to win the DVD no doubt. I love stuff like this. fuel __________________ 158112509 - icq http://www.empireofcontent.com

06-25-2002, 04:10 PM	#4
salsbury Confirmed User Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Seattle Posts: 1,070	you'll find very few circumstances where a supplier will sell you 1 item for less than what it goes for at retail. the supplier will probably sell it to you for MSRP, and retailers discount the MSRP to give you an incentive to shop there. maybe it's different in UK, but that's how it is in the US. this is in the supplier's best interests. they don't want to have to deal with shipping items out to individuals all day - if they did they'd be in retail themselves, mail-order style. they want you to go to the retail shops and buy it from them - someone else to deal with the customer, handle the checks/creditcards/chargebacks/bounced checks, etc. so i think your analogy is flawed. __________________ Last edited by salsbury; 06-25-2002 at 04:12 PM..

06-25-2002, 04:14 PM	#5
DrGuile Confirmed User Join Date: Jan 2002 Posts: 2,025	try any company website, than go over to pricewatch.com and see if its cheaper direct from the manifacturer... thats one useless long post... __________________ LiveBucks / Privatefeeds - Giving you money since 1999 Up to 50% Commission! 25% Webmaster Referal Powered by Gamma

06-25-2002, 04:14 PM	#6
Jon Confirmed User Industry Role: Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: New York City Posts: 2,578	well since a lot of people will be reading this post, those of you who are not the brokers of traffic contact me - [email protected] lets start a "fuck the brokers" uprising. __________________ WickedFire.com - Stay here. We don't need more of you. Not unless you have money, then, fine...

06-25-2002, 03:57 PM	#2
ldinternet Confirmed User Join Date: Apr 2001 Posts: 8,245	Just some basic information. Now, I really should get back to some heavy revisions. Got exams to the end of June, and external exams RIGHT into the middle of August. Sucks.

06-25-2002, 04:19 PM	#7
ldinternet Confirmed User Join Date: Apr 2001 Posts: 8,245	But. Even when the pricing is similar to that of the broker, you'll get the satisfaction of cutting the broker out. I know I would. The camera store example is flawed, but only slightly. When it comes to buying and selling traffic online, guys that are selling traffic aren't comparable to big time business in terms of costing. It was used purely as an example - their net profit isn't tens of millions of dollars every year, and they are in a position to cut buyers a good deal. Especially someone that may want to buy 100k traffic per day. I'd rather get that from a reputable dealer than Mr. Broker. Buying traffic, as always, pricing is relative to traffic volume. One of the few circumstances I can think of where a dealer would refuse to sell to anyone OTHER than a broker, is when the dealer does not want to deal with extremely small transactions. But, anyone buying a small amount of traffic wouldn't make such a great saving by going directly to the dealer. To buy large amounts of traffic from a broker without at least contacting the dealer (if you know who it is) to make them an offer would be INSANE. The worse they can say is no. Hey... maybe I'll contact my hosting company and ask them to bring down my hosting by $5 per MB/sec. I lose nothing... they worse they can say is NO. Same principle when it comes to traffic. Just contact the dealer if you know who it is, and see what they have to offer you. Sure. Any big purchaser would already know that. But recently I see people buying huge amounts of traffic from brokers. ;-) Last edited by ldinternet; 06-25-2002 at 04:28 PM..

06-25-2002, 04:28 PM	#8
FierceHost Confirmed User Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Indiana Posts: 424	Waist of typing, people buy traffic, to sale their product, boost their tgp, or many other things. If the people new how to receive the traffic other ways they probably would, or if they had the knowledge. The purpose for buying it is, because they want the traffic, and to some (with money) it's easier to buy it, then work for it. __________________ 250$ 1000GB / Mo - 2000mb space - 10 domains - .26 per gig overage <font color="#00FF00">ICQ 132871574</font>

06-25-2002, 04:36 PM	#9
ldinternet Confirmed User Join Date: Apr 2001 Posts: 8,245	But, I'm not suggesting that anyone work for that traffic instead of buying it. Simply presenting information for open eyes. People can either take it, or leave it. Sure it is a useless post for many people, old timers, old hands in this biz. It is all common knowledge. But if it cuts out one broker on one traffic deal, then, it was worth it.

06-25-2002, 04:48 PM	#10
kmanrox aka K-Man Industry Role: Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: The Gutter Posts: 29,292	very well written, but it makes no sense.... so you are saying, in essence, that we should not buy clothes from the stores, that we should make our own, or go to malaysia and pick up some jeans for ourselves? is your big epiphany essentially tell us to start welding our own car and stop buying them from the dealers? if so, i haven't the slightest idea how to make rubber for the tires, do rubbr trees even grow in california? perhaps, PERHAPS we should even start driving around our cities and collecting the 'garage sale' info from the peper plates stapled to the telephone poles, write up a list, then go hit up some garage sales instead of gettin the newspapwer which consolidates this in a timely manner, and has a good reputation? this is pretty fun, i could sit here all day and have fun with you LD, but i have to look after my programmer who is programming a 100% automated, on-the-fly traffic brokering system that will not only broker tgp feeder traffic, but also gallery listings etc.... you see, the purpose of my form of brokering is to combine the hits from many sources, track it securely, and then send the targeted hits to the customers..... or would you prefer to track all of the feeder traffic you are buying and deal with 15 webmasters, all via e-mail, 10 hours there 10 hours back, if you need a link change thats 300 hours.... ouch come back down to reality, its not as bad as you think __________________ Crypto HODLr Crypto mining Angel investor

06-25-2002, 04:49 PM	#11
kmanrox aka K-Man Industry Role: Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: The Gutter Posts: 29,292	and that is officially the most amount of time ive ever spent on a post on GFY __________________ Crypto HODLr Crypto mining Angel investor

06-25-2002, 04:56 PM	#12
Choker Confirmed User Industry Role: Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: Orlando Posts: 9,024	ldinternet, very good post. you bring up some very good points, but you are also giving only examples that lien torwards your views on this. First and foremost, I sell traffic cheaper in most cases than if you went to the supplier yourself. Many suppliers give me exclusive prices because they know I will buy a lot of traffic from them without bothering them with newbie questions, and they know I will not try to rip them off. I buy a lot of traffic from many different sources, mix it up to get a good mixture of quality and sell it. You as a buyer can't do this easily. Do you think guys want to go to 50 different suppliers, and try one at a time?? How many are going to screw him out of 50?? He is taking a big chance. With a reputable broker this should not happen. You are paying his prices not just for the traffic, but for his knowledge and know how. He knows what kind of traffic is best for your site. And the assurance that you will not get ripped off is worth a lot of money too. If you don't want to use a broker to buy traffic, then don't. There are plenty of people who don't know who to trust when buying traffic or don't have the time to deal with 20 different sources of traffic. Why should they when one person like me can do it for them for the same price if not cheaper than they can do theirself? I have NEVER ripped anyone off, and never will. The only negative post about me you will ever see is from that faggot Pipecrew who I have never had any dealings with. He is just jealous of anyone who succeeds. __________________ ICQ me lets make a deal 116894466 Need dating, cam, or tube traffic? I got it.http://http://www.chokertraffic.com The Original http://www.chokertraffic.com/ Premium country pop-unders from $1.50 per k. I challenge you to compare this traffic to any other brokers. http://www.chokertraffic.com/public/tabs.php?t=o

06-25-2002, 05:05 PM	#13
kmanrox aka K-Man Industry Role: Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: The Gutter Posts: 29,292	choker you ripped me off fucker __________________ Crypto HODLr Crypto mining Angel investor

06-25-2002, 05:06 PM	#14
kmanrox aka K-Man Industry Role: Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: The Gutter Posts: 29,292	ahahaha j/k!!!! __________________ Crypto HODLr Crypto mining Angel investor

06-25-2002, 05:19 PM	#16
DrGuile Confirmed User Join Date: Jan 2002 Posts: 2,025	if there wasnt a need for traffic brokers, there wouldnt be any brokers... next... __________________ LiveBucks / Privatefeeds - Giving you money since 1999 Up to 50% Commission! 25% Webmaster Referal Powered by Gamma

06-25-2002, 05:20 PM	#18
KRosh So Fucking Outlawed Industry Role: Join Date: Nov 2001 Posts: 5,114	I have found in this business people will not deal with you directly unless you have a relationship with them. Then you have to spend time getting to know who has traffic and will sell it to you. There is a lot of leg work that would go in to this for someone who doesn't have much experience. A broker is the only option at this point. The "retail" examples do not apply in these cases. BTW... IDinternet here is a challenge for you... Try to purchase a Cannondale Bicycle directly from the manufacturer and tell me what happens... __________________ ICQ 115433750

06-25-2002, 05:23 PM	#20
ldinternet Confirmed User Join Date: Apr 2001 Posts: 8,245	I already covered that guys. Of course, it is pointing out the obvious. It is all common knowledge. There aren't always multiple options available, but I for one will exploit them where available. Read my last "longer than one sentence" post. It is all in there, and I know (I think) that I covered all bases with that one. At least I intended to.

06-25-2002, 05:37 PM	#22
ldinternet Confirmed User Join Date: Apr 2001 Posts: 8,245	Choker, Whats the deal with Pipecrew? Or is it none of my biz?

06-25-2002, 05:51 PM	#24
G Sharp So Fucking Banned Join Date: May 2002 Posts: 1,343	Interesting THESIS. Analysis on the SUPPLY SIDE: Problem is, manufacturers often charge direct buyers more than they charge their distributors becuase the direct buyer does not have VOLUME purchasing power. Think of it this way: If I have paysites that generate XX amount of exit traffic per day and it cost me YY amount to generate that traffic, would I sell it to a person who contracts for ALL of this traffic for a whole YEAR [the broker--distributor] or do I sell it for more piecemeal to direct buyers? Before you choose the latter option, note that there are a lot of costs involved in recruiting direct buyers, plus also customer service issues. It all boils down to ECONOMIES OF SCALE--the larger the broker commits to distribute, the lower my costs, the more comfortable I feel in selling to him/her all my output for near the cost of production. I still make a profit and skip on the hassle...and rest assured on continuing demand. Brokers, whether they broker real estate, stocks, or porno traffic, exist for a reason. They act as reservoirs of demand in a fragmented and dispersed market. DEMAND SIDE ANALYSIS: Brokers build a reputation on their ability to deliver inventory. There is an efficiency built into a relationship where a party is specialized in sourcing, costing, and delivering supply in a consistent way. Sure, it can sometimes be cheaper to go to the supplier ourselves, but supply is not assured. Moreover, buying your supply from a broker benefits from the psychological dependence the supplier has on the broker. The supplier wants to please the broker because this person is a volume buyer, so the supplier is more willing to please the customer as opposed to a scenario where the customer approached the supplier directly. Unless you're HUGE, you are a one time shot to the supplier and service/quality may suffer. So based on an analysis from both the Supply and Demand side of this economic relationship, the broker is a necessity in today's economy--whether online or offline, whether adult or mainstream. To use a final historical analysis, there have been brokers for thousands of years, the dynamics discussed above worked 5000 years ago as well as they work today. The broker is here to stay.

06-25-2002, 06:15 PM	#26
Uncle Moe Registered User Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: USA Posts: 94	My eyes hurt from reading. __________________ OneVerify Rocks , Get paid for free sign up, massive traffic and Free content too! NastyDollars $35 Per sign up! Free content!! Uncle Moe's Ultra Links Submit your sites here.

06-25-2002, 06:47 PM	#27
2spy Registered User Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Texas Posts: 58	i buy traffic from choker-----------it helps get me going I have no complaints

06-25-2002, 07:35 PM	#28
FATPad Confirmed User Join Date: Oct 2001 Posts: 6,693	No matter what the industry, middlemen are there for one reason...convenience. And you pay for that convenience. __________________ <a href="http://www.adultcontent.co.uk">Adult Content UK - Great British Content</a>

06-25-2002, 08:48 PM	#29
Cogitator Confirmed User Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Florida Posts: 672	Get a life. __________________ - this space intentionally left blank -

06-25-2002, 09:13 PM	#30
Steve Confirmed User Join Date: Feb 2001 Location: USA Posts: 6,894	What do I say to Choker when he asks if I have traffic for sale? 1)yes, I can send you this amount per day 2)no, I need to keep what little I have at the moment. What do I say to anyone else who ICQs/e-mails me and wants to buy traffic? 1)Sorry, I do not have any traffic for sale. Why would I deal with a broker, and not a single individual? Simple, I do not want to deal with a single indivual. Let the broker put up with their shit. That's what he has to do to earn that mark-up. My idea of customer service is a baseball bat. A broker displays a bit more skill in dealing with customers.

06-26-2002, 04:22 AM	#32
a1ka1ine Confirmed User Industry Role: Join Date: Apr 2002 Posts: 3,387	i only want 10k of uniques a month, which is pretty small... you reckon any major sites would want to bother with a small $50-$60 deal like that?? .. =/

06-26-2002, 11:07 AM	#36
hahmike So Fucking Banned Join Date: May 2002 Posts: 2,488	pr0 can suck my untitled second page and broken email link.

06-26-2002, 03:42 PM	#39
ToyBoys Confirmed User Join Date: Mar 2001 Location: Canada Posts: 237	ya you also forget a few other things A traffic broker spends jis time making sure that your account does well and that both sides are happy... If the deal doesn't run properly, guess who doesn't get paid and has no other source of income. The broker also knows people and has many contacts, you shoudl be too busy building yer sites and working on them rather than marketing them. The broker does that for you. Also the broker can watch yer traffic constantly and always hits you up when he/she hears of new deals.. Most likely you would not if you are working as hard as you should be. Many brokers charge a very small fee avergaing around 10%. not a bad price to pay to have someone watching over your stuff. By cutting out the middle man? are you referring to the buyer/seller thatthe broker brought to you? So they do all the work and you decide to cut them out? Where would you be had that broker not come to you witha biz opp... ? But hey fuck them up. They act just like travel agents, sports agents, stock brokers same setup... you need something. they know the people, and where to go to get it... And if you think they do nothing and just take yer money.. you are a fool. They work their asses off, not only pleasing you, but the other partner involved.. They talk to people about anything and everything and are very reliable and are serving you. Ever thought about a waitress's job, why don'd you just go visit the cook and get your food? why do you tip them? Because not only do they do their job, a good waiter/waitress will make sure that you havew everything that you need. I am not speaking on behalf of every broker, because some do take advantage of the situation and are dishonest. I just know of many brokers in this industry that work their asses off and watch yer traffic every minute making sure that everything is working out well if you want to cut them out... well go for it. but have fun, it's one of the most demanding jobs in this industry. __________________

06-26-2002, 05:46 PM	#40
Socks Confirmed User Industry Role: Join Date: May 2002 Location: Toronto Posts: 8,475	Choker will get my business for the simple reason he's the only motherfucker out here busting his ass to make sure he gets my business. It's just good business.

06-26-2002, 06:19 PM	#41
meRx Confirmed User Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: Oahu , Hawaii Posts: 362	Gotta agree with socks , Ive been looking at buying traffic for july some time and i think choker will be who i check with first. He just sounds like an honest motha who is straight and on top of his traffic bizz. __________________ <a href="http://www.freeezinebucks.com/ps.php?s=feb&u=merxxx"><font size="2">FreeZineBucks</font></a> <font size="2"> EASY MONEY! Earn $1.00/email address! NO DEDUCTIONS!</font> <a href="http://www.contentlotto.com/index.php?account=merx"><font size="2">ContentLotto</font></a> <font size="2"> Win Free Content , Hosting , Traffic , Site Designs & more! Why pay?</font>

06-26-2002, 08:54 PM	#42
Za Ha Confirmed User Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Still lost Posts: 5,112	so who are the TOP 5 brokers? ANd why?

06-26-2002, 08:57 PM	#43
kmanrox aka K-Man Industry Role: Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: The Gutter Posts: 29,292	=) __________________ Crypto HODLr Crypto mining Angel investor

06-26-2002, 09:10 PM	#44
PeekHoles Registered User Industry Role: Join Date: Jan 2002 Posts: 1,151	Choker aren't you making a board for traffic sources besides yours. So you know if Choker recommends someone there going to be straight up.

06-26-2002, 09:38 PM	#45
BV wtf Industry Role: Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: Bikini State, FL USA Posts: 10,914	Good brokers are experts in the field wich they are brokering. Besides the fact of taking a huge amount of work off your back they keep prices lower than if you were buying directly. This is accomplished in many ways and there are many factors involved, especially when you are buying a volatile comodity. I broker "cut foliage" in the mainstream world, and if my customers tryed to buy directly they would get fucked in a heartbeat. Just take my word for it cause it's true, seen it happen not only in my field but in several others too. Cheers, BV

06-27-2002, 05:44 AM	#47
ldinternet Confirmed User Join Date: Apr 2001 Posts: 8,245	I don't remember recommending that anyone tries to fly in 660lbs of dope from Mexico... Jung is used purely as an example, in the way that he cut his cash outflow. He hit a small snag with the fact that his business was illegal... but the same methods can be applied just as well to legitimate business to bring in a higher net profit percentage. The most likely reason you're not a billionaire yet is because you listened to my advice. j/k ... not that I ever give bad info (unless people mis-interpret it, which seems to happen frequently ) Alright, the first thing you need to know about smuggling drugs, is that it's easy. The DEA are a bunch of losers. They couldn't find their dicks in a whorehouse. They don't know what the fuck they're doing... Last edited by ldinternet; 06-27-2002 at 05:46 AM..