I'm with you Halcyon.

Though I felt sorry for the lives lost on 9-11 but I went about my life as normal. War and terrorism has been going on since the beginning of mankind, it is only now that it has been dropped off at the door step of the USA. Now it finally hit "home" to the people who only know of such atrocities from watching the news.

More children die from starvation every night than the amount of people killed on that day, yet 9-11 will go down in history as one of the most life changing events of our time. Even though I lost someone that day, it was just another day on this planet where people were wrongly killed. Happens ever day in one manner or another. You accept it or you don't.

The United States Of America has already been defeated. It has changed the way we live and travel. It has taken away freedoms, and leaves us in a state of fear. Day by day we lose a little more. We are not too far off from a mild form of police state. Let another major attack happen on US soil and see what happens.

The USA can not win any "war" against terrorists. As it is said, one mans terrorist is another mans freedom fighter. No truer words have ever been spoken. We invade a country and call those who defend it Insurgents, yet we are the invading force. What would you do if your home was invaded? Would you become an insurgent and fight them? Fucking a right you would. THAT is what Americans would do if the battle came to your front door. You would fight to defend everything you had, and the people you loved. It would be your duty.

But these people are willing to die for their cause. They hate us. Everything about us. The more we kill them, the more it breeds more hate and young men willing to give their life for the cause. It's a no win situation. You will never defeat this. It's not possible.

I really do worry about the future. Another major attack, or two, and it's all over. Another plane flown into a building or blown up and I don't even want to think how difficult it will be to fly. A subway bombing in New York... a Train in Ohio... a Boat in San Francisco... A hotel in Vegas... I don't want to think about how that will change our lives that much more.

Though I worry for the future, I do not live in fear. Fuck all of it. I'm gonna go sometime.

it becomes clear when you look at the status of "post 9-11" activity vs "Post-Katrina" activity I think.

Man you come up with some bullshit !

Bush should have just declared war and declared marshal law and then you'd have something to bitch about.

I bet you can't provide one single link to any case in the USA where the Patriot Act has been used in the USA to violate any americans rights !

The Patriot Act is also temporary and passed by congress and compared to
any other time during American history it's very weak.

You said "100 years ago the entire administration would have been hung".

Do a little checking on Google and you'll see how ignorant your statement is.

Here's just a few I found in 2 minutes:

SEC. 2. FINDINGS.

The Congress makes the following findings:

(1) The freedom of more than 600,000 Italian-born immigrants in the United States and their families was restricted during World War II by Government measures that branded them "enemy aliens" and included carrying identification cards, travel restrictions, and seizure of personal property.

(2) During World War II more than 10,000 Italian Americans living on the West Coast were forced to leave their homes and prohibited from entering coastal zones. More than 50,000 were subjected to curfews.

(3) During World War II thousands of Italian American immigrants were arrested, and hundreds were interned in military camps.

(4) Hundreds of thousands of Italian Americans performed exemplary service and thousands sacrificed their lives in defense of the United States.

(5) At the time, Italians were the largest foreign-born group in the United States, and today are the fifth largest immigrant group in the United States, numbering approximately 15,000,000.

(6) The impact of the wartime experience was devastating to Italian American communities in the United States, and its effects are still being felt.

(7) A deliberate policy kept these measures from the public during the war. Even 50 years later much information is still classified, the full story remains unknown to the public, and it has never been acknowledged in any official capacity by the United States Government.

http://bss.sfsu.edu/internment/italians.html

German American Internment
http://www.serve.com/shea/germusa/itintern.htm

Japanese American Internment
http://www.geocities.com/Athens/8420/main.html


Here's some more before your enemy Bush took power!

American Wars which have resulted in losses of freedoms:

War of 1812:

Central government takes power from state government. Trade restricted.
Civil War: (1861-1865)
President takes over Constitutional powers of Congress.
Government examines private mail and telegrams.
Military leaders allowed to arrest citizens without warrants.
Criminal rights suspended (habeas corpus, etc.).
Freedom of speech and the press ended by arrests and presidential orders.
Draft of citizens.
Government seizes private property.
Taxes raised to support war.


World War I: (1917-1919)

Government control over key areas of economy, including railroads, farms, and power plants; also fixed prices.
Hate propaganda sponsored by government, led to persecution of Americans of German descent, Irish-American, and Jews.
Vigilante groups form to lynch labor leaders and pacifists.
Espionage Act gave strict punishment to those critical of war censorship of mails. Censorship of press; end to freedom of speech (Sedition Act).
Supreme Court grants government right to overthrow freedom of speech.
Selective Service Act created mandatory draft.
Intolerance led to brutal attacks on Black Americans.


World War II: (1941-1945)

Government control over economy (rents, wages, salaries, factories, rationing, etc.).
Government sponsored hate propaganda.
Draft resumed.
Favored treatment for big business led to problems for smaller ones.
Japanese-Americans forced into concentration camps, lost their homes and property.
Labor unions lost rights.


Vietnam War: (1962-1975)

Presidents take over powers of Congress.
FBI and CIA spy on citizens.
Draft resumed.
Increased "cooperation" between government and big business.
Freedom of press restricted.
Criminal rights restricted.

http://www.eduref.org/Virtual/Lesson...y/HIS0002.html

Its a really good quote.
Very true.

edited for lameness: on: today by: me
nice job surfing and quoting...

now, can you make a statement or propose a theory that u actually come up with using your brain?

Of course not, because the information obtained does not need to go before a judge to determine it has violated anyone's rights.

Stop using facts and the truth, damn you! this is GFY!

Aaah... a tall cold glass of clean water. Refreshing.

Had to bump because I just lamely contributed my 2cents to the latest 9/11 thread... I had to.

he proposed a pretty solid theory backed with evidence that BradM's statement was not only absurd but 100% incorrect.

wrong.

you suck at this game.

just a friendly reminder that we are discussing ideas, not the people who hold them. I'm learning from the discourse.

and i bet some of your "Bush is the master of all things evil" weren't so against the "patriot act" after the terrorist attacks which prompted its conception... BY CLINTON and HIS administration over 10 years ago.

wrong... he propsed a theory based on what the govt and media tells you to think...

did the govt say that they were not intercepting communications via the internet years ago? yes they did.. they got caught and then said they were intercepting messages within the law....

did the govt go apeshit when it was discovered that they had a direct feed to SWIFT? yes... why? because they got caught with there hands in the cookie jar... in clear violation of US law....


the bottom line is that the bush administration has vehemently denied any claims of violation of constitutional rights and then when they get caught, they blame it on the nations interest in national security and protecting US citizens...

before you go on a tangent that i am against the republicans and the president, i was a strong supporter of bush... i used to have a respect for bush and the fact that he always stood by his word, whether you liked it or not... but, after seeing all the shit go down since 9/11 i have come to the conclusion that he is just a puppet of corporate conservitive america and that all of his actions are driven by corporate greed and the manipulation of the general populations minds...

:2 cents: I recently received a check from an very popular
affiliate program.
The bank that the check was issued from was located in Germany.
When I attempted to cash the check I was told there would be a
10 day hold on the check. The bank ( a national branch)
said they where very hesitant to even take the check.

I asked the teller to explain to me why I had to wait for
10 days to have the funds made available to me. it wasn?t a
huge check but it was needed.She then explained to me that.

Any checks issued from any country that might have
any possible terrorism ties had to be federally
investigated before clearing.

She also told me that this was because of the patriot act.
The banks have some leeway on deciding what and who
is investigated. If you are a very trusted biz-ness owner
they MAY not investigate. The banks choose to use this option
because of check fraud.

Basically what it comes down to is that international checks
are monitored along with your acct by the US Government.

Now that is seriously fucking with our civil rights.
Before the Patriot Act the government was not allowed to
monitor any individuals Income without a Federal Court order.

So whether you know it or not you are being affected...

thank yuo for pointing out a real world example... i have been saying that just because you dont personally feel the effects of the patriot act, doesnt mean they dont exist...

That sucked, I had a 15 minute conversation with the bank manager.
She told me personally the she was required (while I was standing there). To call the check in to the federal investigation board.

Actually I'm correct, you should look over the Patriot Act before you comment on it.

The act allows the government to only have to go before a FISA court to allow for surveillance on your personal phone, library, computer records and so on. A FISA court does not require reasonable suspicion or evidence to do this, and they don't even need to obtain the permission for awhile after they have started surveillance.

Now my comment came on something you said about whether we had been infringed on. I said we'd never know, because the FISA court records are not public record. In fact, a Federal judge also said that individuals do not have the right to know if they have ever been spied on.

Those are the facts of the act, I'm sorry if you have read something different about it. My statement was true. I have not acknowledged whether I support or disapprove of the Patriot Act, just that it does not require the old warrants to look through our records.

Earlier today my wife told me that Osama there is upset with the US because we "set foot on their land" during the 1991 Kuwait war. Correct me if I'm wrong, but we were there on REQUEST from the Saudis and Kuwait (who fled to where during this crisis? England.)

Not to mention that fighting during WWII went all the way to Bagdad in the 1940s. They could all be speaking German now.

Here are Osama Bin Laden's reasons for attacking us, in his own words.... this is a speech he sent to Al Jazeera. I won't say how i feel about it, but I surely don't take the "cowboy" attitude and decline to educate myself simply because Osama was the one giving the speech.

All should read and educate themselves on the point of view of our enemy:

Praise be to Allah who created the creation for his worship and commanded them to be just and permitted the wronged one to retaliate against the oppressor in kind. To proceed:

Peace be upon he who follows the guidance: People of America this talk of mine is for you and concerns the ideal way to prevent another Manhattan, and deals with the war and its causes and results.

Before I begin, I say to you that security is an indispensable pillar of human life and that free men do not forfeit their security, contrary to Bush's claim that we hate freedom.

If so, then let him explain to us why we don't strike for example - Sweden? And we know that freedom-haters don't possess defiant spirits like those of the 19 - may Allah have mercy on them.

No, we fight because we are free men who don't sleep under oppression. We want to restore freedom to our nation, just as you lay waste to our nation. So shall we lay waste to yours.

No one except a dumb thief plays with the security of others and then makes himself believe he will be secure. Whereas thinking people, when disaster strikes, make it their priority to look for its causes, in order to prevent it happening again.

But I am amazed at you. Even though we are in the fourth year after the events of September 11th, Bush is still engaged in distortion, deception and hiding from you the real causes. And thus, the reasons are still there for a repeat of what occurred.

So I shall talk to you about the story behind those events and shall tell you truthfully about the moments in which the decision was taken, for you to consider.

I say to you, Allah knows that it had never occurred to us to strike the towers. But after it became unbearable and we witnessed the oppression and tyranny of the American/Israeli coalition against our people in Palestine and Lebanon, it came to my mind.

The events that affected my soul in a direct way started in 1982 when America permitted the Israelis to invade Lebanon and the American Sixth Fleet helped them in that. This bombardment began and many were killed and injured and others were terrorised and displaced.

I couldn't forget those moving scenes, blood and severed limbs, women and children sprawled everywhere. Houses destroyed along with their occupants and high rises demolished over their residents, rockets raining down on our home without mercy.

The situation was like a crocodile meeting a helpless child, powerless except for his screams. Does the crocodile understand a conversation that doesn't include a weapon? And the whole world saw and heard but it didn't respond.

In those difficult moments many hard-to-describe ideas bubbled in my soul, but in the end they produced an intense feeling of rejection of tyranny, and gave birth to a strong resolve to punish the oppressors.

And as I looked at those demolished towers in Lebanon, it entered my mind that we should punish the oppressor in kind and that we should destroy towers in America in order that they taste some of what we tasted and so that they be deterred from killing our women and children.

And that day, it was confirmed to me that oppression and the intentional killing of innocent women and children is a deliberate American policy. Destruction is freedom and democracy, while resistance is terrorism and intolerance.

This means the oppressing and embargoing to death of millions as Bush Sr did in Iraq in the greatest mass slaughter of children mankind has ever known, and it means the throwing of millions of pounds of bombs and explosives at millions of children - also in Iraq - as Bush Jr did, in order to remove an old agent and replace him with a new puppet to assist in the pilfering of Iraq's oil and other outrages.

So with these images and their like as their background, the events of September 11th came as a reply to those great wrongs, should a man be blamed for defending his sanctuary?

Is defending oneself and punishing the aggressor in kind, objectionable terrorism? If it is such, then it is unavoidable for us.

This is the message which I sought to communicate to you in word and deed, repeatedly, for years before September 11th.

And you can read this, if you wish, in my interview with Scott in Time Magazine in 1996, or with Peter Arnett on CNN in 1997, or my meeting with John Weiner in 1998.

You can observe it practically, if you wish, in Kenya and Tanzania and in Aden. And you can read it in my interview with Abdul Bari Atwan, as well as my interviews with Robert Fisk.

The latter is one of your compatriots and co-religionists and I consider him to be neutral. So are the pretenders of freedom at the White House and the channels controlled by them able to run an interview with him? So that he may relay to the American people what he has understood from us to be the reasons for our fight against you?

If you were to avoid these reasons, you will have taken the correct path that will lead America to the security that it was in before September 11th. This concerned the causes of the war.

As for it's results, they have been, by the grace of Allah, positive and enormous, and have, by all standards, exceeded all expectations. This is due to many factors, chief among them, that we have found it difficult to deal with the Bush administration in light of the resemblance it bears to the regimes in our countries, half of which are ruled by the military and the other half which are ruled by the sons of kings and presidents.

Our experience with them is lengthy, and both types are replete with those who are characterised by pride, arrogance, greed and misappropriation of wealth. This resemblance began after the visits of Bush Sr to the region.

At a time when some of our compatriots were dazzled by America and hoping that these visits would have an effect on our countries, all of a sudden he was affected by those monarchies and military regimes, and became envious of their remaining decades in their positions, to embezzle the public wealth of the nation without supervision or accounting.

So he took dictatorship and suppression of freedoms to his son and they named it the Patriot Act, under the pretence of fighting terrorism. In addition, Bush sanctioned the installing of sons as state governors, and didn't forget to import expertise in election fraud from the region's presidents to Florida to be made use of in moments of difficulty.

All that we have mentioned has made it easy for us to provoke and bait this administration. All that we have to do is to send two mujahidin to the furthest point east to raise a piece of cloth on which is written al-Qaida, in order to make the generals race there to cause America to suffer human, economic, and political losses without their achieving for it anything of note other than some benefits for their private companies.

This is in addition to our having experience in using guerrilla warfare and the war of attrition to fight tyrannical superpowers, as we, alongside the mujahidin, bled Russia for 10 years, until it went bankrupt and was forced to withdraw in defeat.

All Praise is due to Allah.

So we are continuing this policy in bleeding America to the point of bankruptcy. Allah willing, and nothing is too great for Allah.

That being said, those who say that al-Qaida has won against the administration in the White House or that the administration has lost in this war have not been precise, because when one scrutinises the results, one cannot say that al-Qaida is the sole factor in achieving those spectacular gains.

Rather, the policy of the White House that demands the opening of war fronts to keep busy their various corporations - whether they be working in the field of arms or oil or reconstruction - has helped al-Qaida to achieve these enormous results.

And so it has appeared to some analysts and diplomats that the White House and us are playing as one team towards the economic goals of the United States, even if the intentions differ.

And it was to these sorts of notions and their like that the British diplomat and others were referring in their lectures at the Royal Institute of International Affairs. [When they pointed out that] for example, al-Qaida spent $500,000 on the event, while America, in the incident and its aftermath, lost - according to the lowest estimate - more than $500 billion.

Meaning that every dollar of al-Qaida defeated a million dollars by the permission of Allah, besides the loss of a huge number of jobs.

(continued)

(continued... here's the rest of it)

As for the size of the economic deficit, it has reached record astronomical numbers estimated to total more than a trillion dollars.

And even more dangerous and bitter for America is that the mujahidin recently forced Bush to resort to emergency funds to continue the fight in Afghanistan and Iraq, which is evidence of the success of the bleed-until-bankruptcy plan - with Allah's permission.

It is true that this shows that al-Qaida has gained, but on the other hand, it shows that the Bush administration has also gained, something of which anyone who looks at the size of the contracts acquired by the shady Bush administration-linked mega-corporations, like Halliburton and its kind, will be convinced. And it all shows that the real loser is ... you.

It is the American people and their economy. And for the record, we had agreed with the Commander-General Muhammad Ataa, Allah have mercy on him, that all the operations should be carried out within 20 minutes, before Bush and his administration notice.

It never occurred to us that the commander-in-chief of the American armed forces would abandon 50,000 of his citizens in the twin towers to face those great horrors alone, the time when they most needed him.

But because it seemed to him that occupying himself by talking to the little girl about the goat and its butting was more important than occupying himself with the planes and their butting of the skyscrapers, we were given three times the period required to execute the operations - all praise is due to Allah.

And it's no secret to you that the thinkers and perceptive ones from among the Americans warned Bush before the war and told him: "All that you want for securing America and removing the weapons of mass destruction - assuming they exist - is available to you, and the nations of the world are with you in the inspections, and it is in the interest of America that it not be thrust into an unjustified war with an unknown outcome."

But the darkness of the black gold blurred his vision and insight, and he gave priority to private interests over the public interests of America.

So the war went ahead, the death toll rose, the American economy bled, and Bush became embroiled in the swamps of Iraq that threaten his future. He fits the saying "like the naughty she-goat who used her hoof to dig up a knife from under the earth".

So I say to you, over 15,000 of our people have been killed and tens of thousands injured, while more than a thousand of you have been killed and more than 10,000 injured. And Bush's hands are stained with the blood of all those killed from both sides, all for the sake of oil and keeping their private companies in business.

Be aware that it is the nation who punishes the weak man when he causes the killing of one of its citizens for money, while letting the powerful one get off, when he causes the killing of more than 1000 of its sons, also for money.

And the same goes for your allies in Palestine. They terrorise the women and children, and kill and capture the men as they lie sleeping with their families on the mattresses, that you may recall that for every action, there is a reaction.

Finally, it behoves you to reflect on the last wills and testaments of the thousands who left you on the 11th as they gestured in despair. They are important testaments, which should be studied and researched.

Among the most important of what I read in them was some prose in their gestures before the collapse, where they say: "How mistaken we were to have allowed the White House to implement its aggressive foreign policies against the weak without supervision."

It is as if they were telling you, the people of America: "Hold to account those who have caused us to be killed, and happy is he who learns from others' mistakes."

And among that which I read in their gestures is a verse of poetry. "Injustice chases its people, and how unhealthy the bed of tyranny."

As has been said: "An ounce of prevention is better than a pound of cure."

And know that: "It is better to return to the truth than persist in error." And that the wise man doesn't squander his security, wealth and children for the sake of the liar in the White House.

In conclusion, I tell you in truth, that your security is not in the hands of Kerry, nor Bush, nor al-Qaida. No.

Your security is in your own hands. And every state that doesn't play with our security has automatically guaranteed its own security.

And Allah is our Guardian and Helper, while you have no Guardian or Helper. All peace be upon he who follows the Guidance.

Osama and his rebels where trained by the Us Gov to fight the Russians.
After the battle/ war ended we no longer needed his assistance and decided he was a threat to the U.S. People seem to forget that part.

you started with a remark that there is no judicial oversite and finished by posting about the fact that there is in fact, judicial oversight?

... and you think i am confused?

:1orglaugh :1orglaugh

Hal for President!

:pimp

The FISA court isn't judicial oversight in my opinion. You need no evidence or suspicion to be given the right to search. You don't need to inform them for up to 30 days in some cases after you've started looking through personal records. And the FISA courts are not required to tell anyone who they allowed surveillance on, even well after the fact.

The FISA courts are not judicial oversight for American citizens. They are there for foreign surveillance. Look no further than the fact the FISA court has denied 2 requests ever. I don't consider that form of checks and balances the "judicial oversight" the constitution asks for.

stop making so much sense.

FISA is for "Foreign" communications interception and the supreme court said it requires:

(1) a showing of probable cause that a particular offense has been or is about to be committed;

(2) the applicant must describe with particularity the conversations to be intercepted;

(3) the surveillance must be for a specific, limited period of time in order to minimize the invasion of privacy (the N.Y. law authorized two months of surveillance at a time);

(4) there must be continuing probable cause showings for the surveillance to continue beyond the original termination date;

(5) the surveillance must end once the conversation sought is seized;

(6) notice must be given unless there is an adequate showing of exigency; and

(7) a return on the warrant is required so that the court may oversee and limit the use of the intercepted conversations.



If the target is a "U.S. person," which includes permanent resident aliens and associations and corporations substantially composed of U.S. citizens or permanent resident aliens, 50 U.S.C.A. § 1801(i), there must be probable cause to believe that the U.S. person's activities "may" or "are about to" involve a violation of the criminal statutes of the United States. § 1801(b)(2)(A),(B); see also § 1801(b)(2)(C) (knowingly engages in activities in preparation for sabotage or "international terrorism" on behalf of a foreign power); § 1801(b)(2)(D) (knowingly enters the United States under a false or fraudulent identity for or on behalf of a foreign power or, while in the United States, knowingly assumes a false or fraudulent identity for or on behalf of a foreign power).

A "United States person" may not be determined to be an agent of a foreign power "solely upon the basis of activities protected by the first amendment to the Constitution of the United States." 50 U.S.C. § 1805(a)(3)(A).

OF COURSE it was NOT muslim terrorists!!

If they did it, why the hell would they attack in daylight, when everyone could see them?? They can attack rest of the world, but attacking USA, their enemy #1, is impossible!
All muslims bragging about jihad, are just trolls and sig whores.

That is the FISA court, but that isn't the Patriot Act. The Patriot Act states now that the FBI only needs to say that the survelliance protects against terrorism to the FISA court. The court does not have the power to reject the application under those circumstances.

Just about 3000 americans got killed on 911. These people were killed by someone who truely believed in their fight for their freedom. It is called terrorism.

I am sitting here wondering about the number of people killed by the Bush administration and its allies in the years post 911. This is not called terrorism, but a fight for freedom and democracy in the world.

Can someone please explain the difference?

Who are we, the free world, to tell the rest of the world how to live and govern their countries? What gives us this right?

PS. I am full off sympathy for the people who lost their loved ones on 911. And full of sympathy for all people who loose loved ones in the act of war.

I never knew your stance...still don't...I read "There will always be wars....etc. etc." and then I saw those meaty paragraphs and just skipped to the end at "living, loving, laughing, etc..."

The PA still requires probable cause so they can't log on to your computer to see which sites you visit unles they have something on you first.

Trust me I'm one of the most anti Gov't people here (not in the terrorist way FYI) but as far as the Gov't getting in to peoples lives where they have no right to and so far the PA isn't been abused except they did use it to bust Paypal on their casino transactions.

I deal with Banking and there's been some changes but nothing that most banks weren't already doing. It just a fact that terrorists like to send money via common international transfers.

for the people of the world that dont understand the enemy.. the enemy is within.. if you are an american, it is your right to go against the grain of normal" society.. it is also your responsabilty to fight against the grain of "normal" society...

although 9/11 was a tragic event, it is not something that came without many years of american diplomacy.. america, since the industrial revolution, has decided that its "out way or the highway". we meddle in foreign policy and try to determine the fate of nations abroad.. it is said that "we reap what we sow"... the united states and its allies are now reaping many years of forced democracy and greed bestowed on foreign nations...

my only hope is that at some point americans will wake up and start to question the policy of our democratically appointeed govt. it will be only then, that we realize how far we have strayed from our original forefathers thought about what democracy means...

america has become a bully and a self appointed demigod in relation to how it (america) views the rest of the world.. there is no right and wrong when it comes to worldwide harmony and peace, there is only tolerance...

although i am of the opinion that ideologies of countries like iran have no place in the future of the world, i am also realistic as to the path to worldwide peace. it will require an abandonment of a "who's right and who's wrong" ideology and an adoption of "one world, one people" philosophy.. without a movement towards that, the world is in for a very rough ride... and ultimately, i think the paranoia of a single faction needing to rule the world will ultimately lead to its (world) demise...

may we, as a united people, someday (soon) find a common fabric that intertwines us (people of all nations) all into a single solidarity...

So what are you saying?

Let someone kill 3000 of our people and we'll just ignore it ?

Lets sit down and talk to them ?

What the fuck you talking about ?

Don't you know you're talking about President Clinton ?

It's a good debate, it shouldn't offend anyone ...

i think you have missed the boat, no disrespect, but here's why... agreed, you must have probably cause, but probable cause is a fantasy.. if you were drug dealer and i had an illegal wiretap on you and i heard you talking about selling drugs on said illegal wiretap... if i (the govt) really wanted to bust you, dont you think it would be a lot easier to get probable cause? let me answer that for you, the answer is yes... the issue i have is that the govt is using the PA and other national security protocals to violate many constitutional rights.. and is this effort to protect us from terrorism? no, its so that the govt can data mine our private lives in an effort to control how we think and feel.. you may think that this is all tin foil fodder, but let me know how you feel in the next 5-10 years when your civil liberties have been eroded to an uncomfortable state.. a state, where you actually realize how much freedom you have lost... at that point it will be too late...

let me give you a real world example... gas is lets say $2.00 a gallon.. in a few weeks time, it rises to $3.00 a gallon... you are outraged as well as many others... gas then goes down to $2.25 a few weeks later... you are happy... why, becauce gas is cheaper... well its not cheaper than it was 6 weeks ago.. but you forget about that becuase its better than it was...

get my point? well you should becuase it just happened to you over the last 18 months... dont belive me? go look online for the average gas price 18 months ago...

What I am saying is that what the Bush administration and their allies does around the world is not much better than what the so called terrorist did on 911. Don´t get me wrong, I think what happend on 911 was terrible and that attacks like that are inexcusable.

But have many civilians from Iraq, Afganistan etc, havent been killed by the allied forces in the name of freedom? We (the free world) pay back. Isnt it just natural they, our so called enemies, pay back as well?

But maybe, if the American government stopped believing that they are the watchdog of the world, things like 911 would never happen.

I am talking about, Ronald Reagan, George Bush Sr., Bill Clinton, and George Bush Jr..... all of them.. it started in the Reagan era in terms of Bush and the alternative agenda... Reagan was a puppet... Geaorge had more power than any other president in a long time... Bill Clinton another puppet... Jr. cant tie his shoelaces without Sr. etc approval..

yes, it sounds crazy but go do some research and u will see the parralells...

It really doesn't though. Read Section 215 of the Patriot Act. It's really creepy. All they need to do now is say that it is for terrorism and they have to sign off on it.

Well we lost over 1000 people in Katrina and we pretty much ignored it.