Doesnt offend me.
Not less safe or more safe now really.
Things will be put in place to stop things, & people will try & eventually get around them & they new rules & so on & so forth.. only natural.

I think the Govt uses allot of what happened against us though.. for sure.
Fear can be a great tool...

& no cant speak on brothers getting killed in somalia etc.. works the other way too tho, families killed here & there all the time.. everyone is always more alike than we all care to admit or see.

I appreciate your response.
And agree that I am not qualified to debate the Patriot Act (even if I beleive that the concept of "reduced personal freedoms for the sake of safety" is an important discussion.)

And while I agree that violence is reality (kinda the point I was trying to make), I disagree that response to violence must always include violence.

(And think Jesus would argue that killing is *not* "just a reality," too.)

Someone wrote to me this morning something that stuck:

"...the victims of every single terrorist attack in the world are every bit as dead and every bit as missed and every bit as innocent as the victims of 9/11. Remember them today, too, and send your mourning vibes out to their families as well."

You ask if we're safe and I don't feel as though that is a valid way to express this particular concern.

We're rarely "safe" from anything. Heart disease and cancer are all "threats" to ones' safety and if you stand on any corner in Harlem and yell out "I got 20K in my pocket and nobody around here is man enough to take it from me" will surely (and quickly) learn just how "un-safe" you are in America and that threat comes by way of other Americans.

Complications to the analogy occur because of "reasonable expectations of safety". If you eat poorly all through your life or smoke, it's reasonable to expect that you may have to pay a price later on and that price may very well be your own life. It's also reasonable to expect your ass is going to get jacked if you stand on a corner and yell out that you have money in a depressed neighborhood.

It's not reasonable to expect that when you get onto an airplane that someone on board is going to try and crash it into a buillding or blow it up. It's not reasonable to go to work and expect an airplane to be flown into your building

Because of the events of 9/11 we have to expect it now - but it's not reasonable.

Islamic fascists hate you and everything you stand for but it goes much further than that. If Tassy stood opposed to everything you support - they'd hate her too.. let me rephase that... they DO hate her and wouldn't think twice before beheading you or her and showing the event to the world.

Diplomacy will *never* work with these people. You can't muddy the waters with words of fairness and diplomacy when the people you are opposed to have no concious - no qualms against killing a child to get their message heard and that message is simple enough...

Believe what they believe, do as their teachings say you should do or you should die.... and they're more than willing to kill you if you don't.

I do disagree with you when you say that long term violence doesn't solve problems. Though it sucks to have to go through the process, you'll never again see Germany trying to overtake Europe or Japan the South Pacific and yes, I know this is an over generalization but my point is a valid one.

You can't use diplomacy to get termites to stop eating your house - they don't understand and though it is simple destruction, they don't see it that way. You have to kill them or lose your house. Islamic facists are the same way.

It sucks because they're "humans with communication tools" so you *should" be able to reason with them but until you come to terms with the fact that reasoning or diplomacy just don't work - it'll continue to mess with you as to why we gotta' do what we gotta' do to "protect" our way of life - hell just our very lives.

That's my :2 cents: (coupon has a cash value of 1/20th of 1 cent)

http://xmaster.fr/cartman.jpg

2HousePlague, you have an amazing writing style and insight.

Good response!
And the termite comparrison is serious food for thought.

Although I would argue that US foreign policy has been the equivalent of years of smoking. As the "body" starts to become sick/shut down/succumb to disease, It is not as simple as conducting surgery to remove the damaged portion.

....... history is replete with examples where those that refuse to fight are slaughtered by those who want to fight.

:2 cents:

our fear is the government's shroud of stealth.

they'll never let us forget. they need our fear to keep the machine running.

i am not afraid.

fuck gwb and co.

50................

i.e. That dude who got crucified.

"our fear"?

or

"your fear"?

my fear is people like you making blanket statements to mischaracterize the attitudes and feelings of 300,000,000 people to affirm your own feelings and rationalize them.

Nicely stated.

9/11 did one positive thing for america, it made the majority of america realise that the world is not just one country 0.02

blanket statements are always a danger. That being said, it is hard to deny the effect of fear on a populace.

In the doc "Manufacturing Consent" there is an awesome discussion about how leaders always do what they want.

But in a democracy, they don't have the luxery of acting at will (like a dictatorship, monarchy, etc.). Instead they have to maufacture consent.

It has calmed slightly, but our leaders were so good at this that questioning the path towards war in Iraq (with untold financial rewards for many close to those leading) was considered mild treason. Fear works.

unlike most, i think fighting has its place. people are not all the same. people are not all good. some people are violent sociopaths. some people are violent psychopaths. some people suffer from a wide array of psychological issues that drive them towards violence or inflicting violence on others for a wide variety of reasons. sometimes these people manage to ascend to the highest heights of power and control nations, their military and the direction of their country

when i was in about 8th grade, i had a much bigger kid that threw rocks at me as i walked to the bus stop and tried to fight me as well. it happened everyday. i knew it was just a matter of time before i got seriously hurt. it was just a matter of time before i got hit by a rock in the head or face. i told my parents, i told his parents, i told the school. i did everything possible to stop it without hurting him. - "awe... just kids being kids" they all said.

That put me in an awkward position. what were my choices? it seemed to me that no one was going to listen until i came home with blood flowing down my face or lost an eye and most of my front teeth from getting hit in the face with a rock. that wasn't a very good choice for me. my choice was to take my chances and hope i didn't get hurt... or stop him.

so... i told myself that i would end it. for good. i woke up, got ready for school... went out to the garage and got a 18" piece of 1 1/2" pipe, stuck it up the sleeve of my jacket and started walking to the bus stop. as i approached the bus stop, he started throwing rocks at me. i dodged them while warning him to stop as i continued forward. as i finally got up to him, he was standing there and smugly asked "what the fuck are you gonna do now? i think i'll just kick your ass" - i slid the pipe out, cracked him over the head... he dropped to his knees and i hit him a few more times to make sure he wasn't getting up. then i stood over the top of him and made if very clear that if he doesn't stop being a dick, he would be coming to the bus stop in a wheelchair.

.... guess what happened? the bus came, everyone saw him lying in a pool of his own blood, the cops came, his parents tried to press charges against me for being a bad guy.

i didn't think i was the bad guy.

i think it was a simple, normal act of self preservation that worked. he never tried to fight me because he knew my response was going to be 10 times worse than whatever he did to me.

that was the end of it.

i learned a good lesson. ...

i learned that sometimes "talking" can't bring resolution to a situation. sometimes you have to fight. sometimes you have to fight because the other side wants to fight... sometimes there is no choice (or at least no better choice). if there is no choice... then you fight to win and you make sure it ends right then and there, using any and all means necessary.

i agree... sometimes governments have to manufacture consent. people are smart. groups of people are stupid. europe didn't want to consent to challenging hitler on his military build up... even though it was obvious where it was going.

had someone taken the opportunity to "manufacture the consent" of the citizens of the weary nations who had already fought a horrible war, there might not have been a second world war. hitler was busy manufacturing consent right and left. burning of the reichstag, attacking jews, political house cleanings where "treason" was found etc. the world is an imperfect place, complicated with impossible situations where choosing the least worse solution is often better than doing nothing.

It may have been the end of the rock throwing. But I wonder what that kid's future became. Did his desire to overpower die with his injuries? Maybe so.

I'm glad your terror stopped. But I'd be suprised if his desire to terrorize did.

The nature of humanity has not changed since the beginning of humanity.. Only the scale of the stage it takes place on, and the possibilities that vastness can create. Humans by nature are killers and fighters, battling for territory, mates and all of the other things flesh and blood creatures do by instinct and by nurture. The only thing that's really different now is the fact that all those factors are stuffed into this little unrealistic box by "modern society", when in fact we have not really changed as creatures, only our views and capability of enforcing them have.

back before mainstream television and radio. people used to talk. they werent afraid to voice their opinions and whether a person agreed with anothers opinion or not, every opinion was respected. we have become a world where we are afraid to express ourselves for fear of being ridiculed, not accepted, away from the norm, etc.

one of the main principles that built the united states was the idea to question things that a person didnt agree with or things that just felt wrong. our forefathers fought wars to keep this idea alive. they may have not been right or wrong for their actions, but they believed in fighting for what was important to them.

today. the united states is a society of robots, complacents, etc... people that want the easy life, dont want to worry about whats really going on in the world, just be lulled to sleep by what the govt and the media tells them... "everything is ok", says the govt and the media.. they say that ignorance is bliss and we are a very blissful society..

a person like hal comes along that has achieved a higher level of self awareness and self love then most of you will ever feel or even understand. and what are the feelings and comments? hippy, fag, etc...

i am not criticizing those feelings becuase thats the same way most of the world feels.. but, if only the world had more people like hal that look at things from their window and are brave or comfortable enough to voice their feelings and opinions.

believe me, the world would be a better place....

there are so many changes happening in the world today.. as human beings fighting for our own existence each and everyday, wherther we realize it or not, we owe it to ourselves and to our future generations to protect the idea of free thought and expression... and to embrace others views and become more tolerant to opinions, cultures, and ideas that differ from our own..

exactly... EVERY living organism is exactly the same in this respect. fullfilling their most basic and primal genetic mandates.

as i have said many times... primarily, what makes us different from babboons is simply our ability to convince ourselves that are different than babboons..

Regardless of your views on the matter, this is one of the most well-thought out and interesting discussions I've ever seen on GFY. Both sides with good statements and thought provoking responses. It's been a pleasure to read some intelligent people and their opinions.

heh heh...I'm fond of referring to humans as "monkeys with flame throwers."

I was just noticing how much I appreciated the voices different from my own in here.

The Patriot Act stripped away the rights of every single American, and you are all okay with that.

100 years ago the entire administration would have been hung. A nation of tolerance through ignorance.

And yet still act like them so often it's frightening.

On the contrary, I would rather risk a blown up plane than the whims of a corrupt government.

Really? Tell us which rights you have lost, please be specific and describe in detail what you tried to do that was forbidden, how the government stopped you from doing it, and how long you were detained/questioned/tortured/whatever while you were trying to exercise these rights that were stripped from you. I'm waiting, and be specific with the details. Thanks.

guess you missed the "I am not afraid." part.

you trying to check me means nothin to me, congrats.

for some reason you been ridin my nuts for a while.

deport all muslims and terror will be decreased by 80%, easiest answer.

this i agree with.

LOL... are you fucking joking? the govt is doing illegal wiretaps, monitoring all SWIFT transactions, etc.... its not whats obvious that scares me... its all the data collection that is being done covertly that could come back to haunt us....

Yeah, you're one of those types.
It's not what they have done to ME, it's what they have done to others. Didn't bush just admit to "Secret Prisons" that hold no trials, release no names and release no numbers of prisoners or locations?

Anyway, this could go on for pages like all other political arguments on GFY or I could just smile and laugh at how little you know and how much faith you have in a piece of paper and its inability to be misread or misinterpereted by a conservative supreme court.

So I'll do that.

i caught it after i posted actually. i am sorry. i just get a little tired of the insistance of some.. that we are "living in fear"

i'm not afraid either. i woke up today and did the same shit today that i did 10 years ago and was just as happy doing it.

i dont know why you think i have "been riding your nuts" ... i dont have anything at all against you. you have always seemed pretty cool.

dear neville, pretending you can appease your violent enemies falls apart as soon as you look at history.

There has NEVER been a long term peace achieved by appeasing your violent enemy.

no worries man. i like your posts so i was wondering what was goin on. i actualy confused you with that other poster with pleasure in the name,. apologies right back,

:love:

:thumbsup

The issue with the Patriot Act is that you lose a lot of your constitutional rights without really knowing. It increases warrantless surveillances on everything from banking records, library records, phone records, internet records, and on and on. Regardless if you know or not, you may have had your privacy infringed upon.

But I think the biggest issue that those of us who truly appreciate our constitution have with the Patriot Act is the lack of checks and balances. Checks and balances have always kept branches of government from becoming too powerful while ensuring that they were playing by the rules. The Patriot Act skips over the judicial branch in many aspects and allows for abuse.

Although some will support and trust your government, the judicial branch approving the surveillance kept things in check. It assured us that some government employee wasn't tapping his ex-girlfriends phone to see who she was chatting with.

So the issue isn't what rights you've lost, as we simply don't know. I don't know if my IMs have been read, my phone records looked at, or banking transactions checked. If the government wants to do these kind of things, they should ammend the constitution and change the laws in place that require a checks and balances system that we've lived with for centuries.

Another note. The Patriot Act has been responsible for only one conviction since 9/11 on terrorism related charges. This is less than the 5 years prior to 9/11. If the Patriot Act is necessary, it sure doesn't seem to be drumming up enough evidence to convict all the terrorists we are told are amongst us.

"Such is the price of freedom", as many would say were the characters in that play a little different.

I find it incredibly sad that so many of people in society have lost so VERY much of themselves that they frantically cling to ideals that they feel make them important, lift them up above others. It's almost like they're trying so hard to deny what they really are that they're willing to give up their right to free thought and expression just to do what they think will elevate them. I'd rather be a bird or a horse or a turtle in that case, thanks.

Wow.. very creative.. almost scary