CDSmith

If I may, I know this has probably been asked before, but I'm asking it anyway....

So you're posting a message that you're looking to work for someone else. You have all these great webmastering and web admin skills, design skills, graphics, promotional, programming and maybe even photography stills as well.

My question is....
why do you want to work for someone else when you've obviously got the skills to build your own profitable network of websites? This always comes to mind and baffles me when I see a "Looking for work" or "I need a job" postings here.

To my way of thinking,

job=make someone else rich
own business=real potential for success

Comments? Thoughts? Brain farts? .... speak!

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Dawgy

sometimes a stable income is best. especially if youre just getting started.

take me for example. i do great, but if given the right offer id go work for one of the "big" players in a heartbeat. the only requirement for me of course, is that im allowed to keep doing my own stuff on my time. ;)

but yah, some people like having that regular paycheck.

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hahmike

a steady income combined with a desire to work as a webmaster is motivation for a lot of people...

there are a lot of skilled webmasters out there working for others, but very few of them deserve as much respect as a webmaster making $100k+ from their own traffic pumps or paysites.

take any webmaster as an example. i could use myself but i'm not ever so self indulging. so i'll take sleazydream 'cause hes the first to spring into mind. certainly deserves a lot more respect, in regards to webmaster skill, than mr. "i'm a nice guy but i'll go hungry if i lose my job" CEN employee. as i see it, quite a few of the employees see themselves as a skilled webmaster but have no idea how to handle many of the basic webmaster functions. designing an appealing thumbnail gallery for example.

mike503

yeah. i need a steady paycheck. building my own business doesn't guarantee shit. so i work the 9x5 and work on my other projects in my free time. work gives me the steady paycheck + benefits, which i couldn't afford to give myself.

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nocostporn

Just because somebody can design,doesnt mean they know how to market that design or else you would see cartoonists and hollywood special effect artists running the adult biz

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CD

You could be the best graphic designer in the world but that does not mean you have business sense. In fact many talented people lack the ability to exploit their skills beyond working for someone else.

Remember most people are quite happy with a weekly salary their health and happiness.

TheApostate

i need a job
i know computers, windows and linux
i know html
i need a job

pr0

experience man, some of the greatest experience comes from working for someone else.

i can only assume your basing this on my post last night....lol

But yea man, i make enough $ to be comfortable, but im looking to add to that, & gain some valuable experience at the same time.

allright

the experience and contacts you will gain if you work for one of the bigger companies is invaluable

CDSmith

Not exactly. Your post did bring this question back into my thoughts though, but I've always wondered this when seeing such postings.

To all: I suppose if it works for you, and you gain as you say "valuable experience" then, as long as you later put that experience to good use for yourself, I don't see the harm in working for others.

However, when thinking in the "long term", I don't see where working for someone else is ever going to get anyone "free", as in wealthy enough to do what you want to do whenever you want to do it. I worked for others for over 18 years and never got anything other than an existance, a huge debt and a bad back. It was after I began my own online business that I was able to realize some of my life-long dreams, such as working from home on my own time, taking a day or a week (or a month) off when I want, not when some bosstard tells me it's okay, and being able to pay off my debts and also pay cash for some larger ticket items that I've always wanted. Btw, when I started this biz I knew bugger all about websites or html or anything. Nothing. Nada. Zip. So these guys with a lot of certified qualifications looking for work sort of baffle me.

I just figure that with either working for someone else or working for myself, I'm going to have to put in a lot of hard work either way. The question is,... is that work really for my benefit or someone else's?

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Pete

depending on what skills a person has depends on whether they need someone else to carry them. Generally I think that when someone asks for a job in this buis. means they have tried everything and are just grasping at straws now!

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Pete

So anyway CD, I agree with your thoughts on this...If your so fuckin good why work for someone else!

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Pete

and yes I know your strong hold in this buisness. You helped me get my feet wet 2 1/2 years ago... remember?

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Mr.Fiction

I have had several businesses and it is my experience, regardless of industry, that only a very small percentage of people are cut out to be entrepreneurs. Most people are happy being able to forget about work after 5pm, having weekends to themselves, and not having to stress on the "big picture".

This is not a bad thing, it's just different strokes...

Dawgy

i agree. if someone were to offer me a nice salary id probly be wiling to give up these 20 hour days and massive amounts of stress, even tho it'd mean making less $$ overall

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CDSmith

Granted, in the beginning of building the business I did put in some insanely long stretches, sometimes going 3 days with literally next to no sleep or much to eat even. I was so involved in the learning process and the creation process that time was irrelivant.

But after a few years, your network is seeing a certain level of traffic, maybe some of your sites are scripted so you don't have to mess around with trade adjustments anymore, and the cheques from sponsors are regular almost like clockwork....... so where is the "20 hour days"?? Hell, nowadays it's 1-2 hours max to build and submit a gallery, an hour to do some updating & promoting, half an hour to answer the email, and another hour maybe to develop some new page ideas. And for me, one day every few months I do a big photoshoot with 2, 3, maybe 4 models. Where exactly is this huge time drain? Should anyone in business for themselves really be so rigidly enslaved to it? That really shouldn't be looked on as a "given" should it? When is it time to sit back and reap the rewards you've earned?

Honestly, I really value the fact that I don't have to get up and be at someone else's beck and call on Monday morning at 8 or 9 am. I can sleep in, or get up even earlier and get the day started, it's my choice. Or just scrap the whole day and take off to the park or the beach or yes, maybe even the cabin. Yes, nothing like partying at the good ol cabin, drinking around the firepit. With a job you just have to fit that kind of thing in around the schedule put out for you. I've had enough of other people's schedules, my old boss can shove her schedule up her fat dyke ass. :D

Pete:
Yes, I remember dude. You've come a long way young skywalker.

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Dawgy

some of us havent been as lucky as you aparently. i dont have a network of sites. i dont have 1000s of sites & galleries & shit out there. if i dont work one day, i starve the next.

i certainly dont have it all figured out at all. and yeah, for someone who's been around as long as me, i look pretty stupid because im not rolling in cash & working 2 hours a day.

theres a lot about this biz i dont know. i wake up every day and go "ok now what the fuck do i do?" because i quite literally dont know. and with the exception of 1 or 2 people, i have zero advice coming from anywhere. so im doing trial and error like every other newbie. only its a lot harder now than it was 6 years ago, and i feel pretty dumb for not quitting my job back then & only doing porn, but i didnt. i fucked up and im paying for it now. but life goes on.

i dunno what you do, or how you do it, but im happy for ya that u only spend a couple hours a day and make assloads of money and dont have any stress or any worries. more power to ya

so, yeah, anyway... theres the answer to your question "where is this huge time drain? " the answer is im not a fucking perfect know it all porn webmaster who has mastered this business.

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pr0

I've worked for companies before in this business, namely last summer, & i had a fucking blast & made a ton of money. But best of all, i gained alot of experience.

I'm 22 years old, and right now i need to learn how to run a business. I've got all the raw talent & skills i need to succeed, but absolutely no business sense whatsoever. So what better way to learn how to operate a business than to work for one?

The ability to make fire doesn't need to be re-invented 1,000 times, when you can simply be taught the process by the inventor. And help each other out in the process.

Dawgy

i agree, altho i guess i will contradict my previous statement and say that in the past when ive worked for other people in this biz, they do not want to share any knowledge or have me learn how to do things on my own, because then i might leave... so... anyway...

im in a pissy mood tonite, sorry for contradicting myself.

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pr0

The companies i've worked with were very open about how they did things, in fact, i taught them alot of things & they taught me alot of things, it was a great trade off.

But thats just it, if you find one of those rare trade-off jobs, its perfect....but if you work for a company that hides everything from you thats fine too, you still pick up your paycheck & gain some experience.

Rochard

You can be a great webmaster, but that doesn't mean you'll make a dollar working on your own. Anyone can make a web page, but to make money off of it... Sometimes you need to have the support in place.

My company is a good example of that. I make the webpages and do the technical stuff, Tanker does the marketing, and Lightspeed.... I'm not sure what he does. But my point is the three of us make a good team, and we're doing well.

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UnseenWorld

I have friends who are unemployed or underemployed. They are always bitching "I can't find a job" and "Nobody's hiring." WTF? Do they spend their spare time thinking of some way to employ themselves? No. I say, "Well, what can you do? Go out there and offer it on a freelance basis. If you can start your own business, you'll be glad you did." "Oh," they say, "I can't do that. I'm not as talented as you." I don't believe it.

Behind every successful business is someone willing to take a risk. A lot of people are just shit-scared of taking a risk. If you're afraid to be poor and live on Top Ramen and help from friends and relatives for a while, if you're afraid of rejection because your ego is so fragile, if you will sit on your butt unless there's some mommy/daddy figure to keep you busy by giving you work to do, you deserve to be miserable.

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pr0

Sounds like almost everyone here just hates the idea of working for someone/working with someone.

But believe it or not, a good social work setting working with others can stimulate your creativity. Give you a creative boost so to speak. The same boost i suppose can be obtained by networking with people online, but its just not the same.

bunky

in all walks of life you must have money to make money correct? Example: I have 1,000 to my name, No offline Job, and i have about 800 Dollars in bills due before the end of the month. Plus Gas, food and cigarette money. Can i afford to go out on a limb risking what little i have to possible lose my ass?
NO. I'll work for Joe Blowe making gallerys and doing bitch workin so i can put so cash in the bank to become a CEO of a multi-million dollar corporation (Lensman).

my

bunky

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pr0

Bunky is a perfect example of someone who cannot take the risk of staying home 24-7 & devoting all his resources to his start-up business. He also needs to be put in an enviroment to learn how to start his business should he ever have the capital to invest.

So you either work for a company, or you goto college & take business courses. Both are pretty much the same.

Dawgy

i agree. generally u should not risk, what u cannot afford to lose. ive done that a few times and regret it.

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UnseenWorld

You can work WITH somebody without being IN A COMPANY. It's called working freelance. You seem to envision people in a hole somewhere with a 20,000 lb stone blocking the hole.

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UnseenWorld

Not true, unless you're too poor to buy a yellow pad and a pencil. It so happens that good websites don't spring to life ex nihilo anymore, but what kind of investment does it take to write? I mean, if you are talking literally penniless, yes, you are up shit creek without a paddle fucked up the ass. However, a lot can be done on a yellow pad, borrowing time on a friend's computer (don't have any friends? time to find out why).

Opportunities are out there for those who don't give themselves excuses. Excuses like "it takes money to make money." That's true in some instances, but not all. So, you don't start with one of those instances.

Very few people are so destitute that they can't afford a small investment, and some starts require only a small investment and the ability to sell yourself.

Four years ago I lived in a one-room efficiency apartment. I scrounged and borrowed until I had a computer. The apartment was so small that I slept on the floor because I had to choose between a bed and a desk. It was so small that I had to sleep on the diagonal, because there wasn't enough room to straighten out my legs otherwise.

I went out to Nevada to work for X-Pics, which fired me after about 6 weeks (a distinction I wear with honor, given their subsequent history). So, I was stuck in Lake Tahoe. I got serious about my membership site and was finally able to rent a truck to get my shit back to Portland, OR. That's when I looked at all the content I'd created for my pay site and decided it was stupid to let it lay around doing nothing, which is how my content business got started.

I've reached the point now where I support one of my friends 100% and contribute substantially to the income of another one.

And I didn't do it by sitting around complaining that nobody would hire me.

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nocostporn

Pr0 just come with me,Get an office in Alexandria,throw a 100 PC's in there and spam the fuck out of this place,60/40 ...anybody else want in? LET'S GO!

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Tam

Why I work for someone else and am not doing it on my own......... CDSmith, I think you and I talked about this in depth one night on icq........... but I will try and explain why *I* work for someone else.

I have the skills and the ABILITY to run my own business, I have the experience NOW, because I have been working for others. There is not one job I have that hasn't strenthened my webmaster abilities or my marketing skills, or anything else for that matter.

What I do NOT have? If I do this on my own which I did for a year and a half, I did not have the $$$ to start up my own company and I needed stability and money coming in and I needed it NOW........ I did literally everything I could do when it came to building sites and I just couldn't cut it no matter what I did.......

So I found MY personal niche, I am best with webmasters. Well to do this, I had to be able to open up my own webmaster programs, blah blah blah........ you know the routine..... that takes money to do and money I don't have at hand...... raising 4 kids is VERY expensive and I don't have gobs of money just laying around to throw at the types of things that I am best suited for.........

Having said all this....... I do it so I have money coming in at ALL times, not just when I get lucky enough to make something turn over for me........ I still work on my own side projects and haven't given those up. I hope to eventually stand on my own feet, but for now I just don't have that option.

Then you filter in the fact that handling someone elses money makes me a damn nervous wreck....... not that I don't trust myself, I just get very nervous when it comes to all that part of the business, I have never cheated anyone, and I like to keep it that way. It is a HUGE responsibility and one I am just not ready for right now. For if you do webmaster type programs, you are then handling literally 100s of peoples money........ just the thought of that makes me crazy........

I am totally content with the job I have and who it is with, they treat me very well and they give me room to expand and spread my wings so to speak......... I am allowed to take many more chances on MY projects on the side simply because I know I have money coming in and am not so desperate.

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Paul Markham

When I was 14 instead of going to school I went around cleaning cars and mowing lawns. Left school at 15, worked for three years, at 18 decided to hitch around Europe and do odd jobs.

At 24 had my own business in the rag trade. Went bankrupt at 28, got ripped off big time. 1978 I had a full time job as a salesman and a part time job as a pornographer. In 89 went full time self employed.

What I'm trying to say is, being self employed is in your blood.

I've been here on the computer since 6.30 and work 7 days a week, employ 8 people and love every minute of it.

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Tam

There are some of us who are a bit more afraid to take risks when it comes to our money and such. I lived on my own at 17 in the streets of Kansas City, Mo....... have been on my own sense. I think I would be alot different if I didn't have kids, but with my having kids, it makes me a little more nervous about risking things than I would otherwise.......

I don't clock into an office everyday, I work from home..... and let me tell you, that takes alot of discipline on it's own.......

But I teach my kids they can do ANYTHING they wanna do, I just don't take as many risks as I would if it was just me...... call me crazy. I have full admiration for those who can do it and succeed, I am just not that confident in my own ability to be that successful on my own two feet........ so I am content working for someone else. And I get paid well so I am not complaining in the least bit.

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UnseenWorld

Once again, taking risks and having a support system you haven't alienated through stealing from them or betraying them time and again is essential.

How bad could it get with your kids? Any real risk of starvation or having the county take them away? If a period of relative poverty is the risk, well, poverty is not such a bad thing as long as you have enough coming in to keep a roof over your head. My father taught me "It's no sin to be poor." During my several years of fairly abject poverty, this thought helped me keep my pride.

Actually, I often wonder if kids aren't better off in some ways growing up on limited funds, so that they can learn that having Nike shoes is not as important as having a mother who loves you. What is a kid who at 16 has a car and a credit card really learning in terms of survival skills?

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mike503

agreed.. it is a nice thing to learn the value of hard work.. and to not be spoiled

problem is, since i wasn't spoiled, i'm going to want to spoil my kids! there were some things as kid i wanted but never could get.. and they weren't all that realistic. but we grew up well away from poverty.. so i will not take that for granted

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JimmyReject

Maybe you should promote better, your site http://www.woofmedia.com is just a splash page to your e-mail address. Your site doesn't even say what you do. Nice picture though.

CDSmith

Nice flow this conversation has taken. Thanks for all the comments thus far.

I sense some real pride in the path that some have taken, and bitterness in others, even maybe some regret in "the road not taken". I guess my story is a bit different simply due to the fact that there was no internet when I was 20. I've already put in the years of working for others, like I mentioned before, over 18 of them. Long years, after which I literally had nothing to show for it. What I did have had come from my entrepreneurial spirit.... my house for example. During my working years, the ONLY way I could buy it was if there was some extra income coming in. The house where I was renting the lower half just happened to have an upstairs apartment. I took a risk, it was a shithole up there. But I bought the place anyway, and put in months of hard work to renovate the place, after which it looks like a dream inside, and I have been receiving regular rent cheques to the tune of $500/mo for the past 7 years. It pays the mortgage and then some.

But from my job, like I said, I ended up with a permanently sore back and not much else. Living paycheck to paycheck began to suck about 10 years ago. When you're young you tend not to think about it as much, but as you get into your 30's and grow up a bit you realize that there's gotta be a better way. What is that way? Well, one thing I did come away from my job was a lot of life experience, and that is something that I've found to be quite valuable as a source of strength. It can't be learned in school, there are no degrees for it, you can't buy it. If you're the type that doesn't pay attention to life's subtler meanings and learn from them you're probably going to stagnate in all things.

I don't claim to "know everything" about this business or have it all figured out. Yes, at times I have and do make what I would describe as "gobs of money", but mostly I just make more money than I did working for "the man" and that's more than fine by me. Someone pointed out the aspect of having a steady reliable income coming in... but what if your boss decides he/she just doesn't like you any more? Gone. Income=0. What could be more steady and reliable than your own income from your own efforts? It ain't simple to do, it takes time and effort, but my formula was something like this....

Build a free site with some babe & bikini content (I started mine all on freehosts)
arrange link trades, at least 5 a day for 2-3 months
mix up your sponsor's links, per-click, per sale and partnership
Promote, network, promote, network
Build second site
repeat process with second site
Build 3rd site, repeat.

Once anyone has collectively reached over 10k per day of good solid traffic (not all blind trades or exit shit) they should be earning enough to at least have a comfortable existance. Build up that traffic to 20-30k/day and that's a good solid base for anyone to grow from, and rely on. If your network is solid and well-run, traffic will be reliable every day, and traffic is money. THEN add in tgp gallery submissions, or get into producing your own content, or specialize in graphics and/or site design, or all areas at once.

Is it easy? Hardly, it takes a shitload of time and effort. Is the above the only way to go about it? Of course not, it's the way I and many other webmasters that started back in 98 and 99 did it though. Is/was it worth it? I'd have to give a resounding hell yes on that. Fact is, no one has it *all* figured out, it's only a matter of finding what works for you.

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LoveAsianChicks

Its best to work for yourself...I mean fuck you can set your own rules.
Make your own money and not depend on a "Boss".

sexyclicks

I do both ( means: work like a dog...)

I have a 9 to 5 job in an Online Casino (the one in my sig)
I also run various adult websites (around 30) including a PaySite.

Pros:
- I can convience the dudes in the company to buy ANY Software I want (and of course use it after at home...)
- I can spend my whole day doing NOTHING and get paid a pretty good salary
- I can update my galleries and my shit from work, I also submit to search engines and stuff IF I am not lazy

Cons:
- I work double
- I don't have to much time to LIVE as a human being
- I am not making as much money as I would like form the porn world.

Now I made a new deal with the Casino guys - I am not working on Wednesdays!!!!

Pete

Its not money that will get your far in this buisness, its skill and know how. Everyone finds that out eventually.

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CDSmith

True. If it took money to get started and be successful then I'd never have started.

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Tam

Unseenworld, my kids know all too well about being poor, as do I. I have always been up front about where I came from and where I am now. When I started in this business we were living on food stamps and in government housing, if that isn't scraping the bottom of the poor bucket, I don't know what it is. It's all because their dad and I took some risks that didn't work out for us. Sooo, we are a little more hesitant than we were before about taking risks. My husband was busting his ass and we were still struggling, so I got into porn, did it for well over a year on my own and while we were doing "OK" we weren't by ANY means making ourselves rich.. and still we are not rich.

But I am in a good place with everything and am totally content in the decisions I have made. Some are good in running the companies and some are good working for the companies. YOU are good running them, I am good working for them........

It isn't a matter of being this or that, it's a matter of what "you" are comfortable doing and this is where I am comfortable....... I have set goals and have met each and everyone of them, and nothing says I won't reach my next set of goals........ I just didn't fly in and try to take on more than what I personally thought I could handle, as I can handle it, I take it on........ I have to do things at my pace the same as anyone else does....... simple as that.

But bottom line is this..... I am sooo totally content and happy with where I am now...... LOL

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SykkBoy

It's already been touched on a bit, but I'm of the mind that some people just aren't meant to be business owners...there are a lot of responsibilities with owning a business. I recently had an issue with my bookkeeper that's totally fucked me up and now I'm trying to sort through the mess...some days I figure it would just be easier to give it all up and work the proverbial 9-5...thenI can let someone else deal with those ehadaches and all the bullshit...

it's also important that some of these guys get experience and working for someone else can often supply that...when you are starting out, you may have some grpahics design skills or programming knowledge, but often need to udnerstand how this business works....the politics, the dealmaking, how to appraoch others to make business deals, etc.

Others just need/want that security of a steady paycheck and I could never fault someone for that....

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pr0

this post is making me reconsider taking a job

Lensman

Anyone who wants to work in good old Northern Cal, drop us a line. We're still hiring, because we have some big stuff cooking on on the grill.

CDSmith

I must admit, the thought of pulling up stakes and moving to N. California and working for Lens is quite alluring. New challenges, new work environment, not to mention a whole new life. If I was younger and things were different here, I would be all over that. And there is nothing that says you can't keep and maintain the sites you already have as well, so that would be doubly good.

But I have always looked upon a job as merely a "stepping stone" to help me get to where I want to be, not as something that will tie me down until I'm 65 or anything.

One of the truly neat things about living off of an online business is that it is so portable. One can just as easily upload files and arrange traffic trades from there as you can here.

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mastamindz

Lens,

Where can I get a hold of you. I am currently looking for full time work and would gladly relocate to Cali. Give me a shout via ICQ or perhaps leave an email address where I can reach you.

RyanJ
ILEKmedia.com

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