I just posted numbers to prove Lebron is beating out Kobe in the playoffs. Instead of just running your mouth, why don't you post something usefull to back up your claims.

Ah, so by your logic, if James' higher PPG means James>Kobe.. What infallible logic you have.. So during the regular season, Kobe>James? Who has more ability to take over a game at any given time? Kobe...Lebron James KNOWs he isn't on Kobe's level, not to mention they're two different players.. I don't have to back up my claims, I can let your weak argument do that. Nobody changes the face of a game quicker and more than Kobe.


Oh and Lebron James, where do you get your facts? Since when does Lebron dominate more games than Kobe? The term "Fanboy" comes to mind. I have always hated Kobe until this year, and now I respect him because he's the best player on the planet playing with a subpar unit, while James has the likes of Zylgascaus and Larry Hughes to play with.

Yeah, that's also what I thought. He's just trying to prove that he can beat the best playmaker in the world at his own game, creating for his teammates. His "unselfishness" is just a result of his selfishness if it makes any sense. As soon as this series is over he will be back at his normal self.
In my opinion it's a shame he doesn't realize how much better he could be playing this way.

My stats came from this years playoffs and there is more than just ppg to talk about. What as Kobe done during the playoffs. Show me some stats. You just keep running your mouth. Just post some numbers or anything. Lebron has better overall stats for the season as well. Lebron has a higher efficency rating for the season.

Come on big boy ... post some stats to back up your claim. Stop just saying "Kobe's the best player on the planet, hands down" You sound like a broken record player. Post stats to prove it or just STFU.

This is where their arguement dies...or they bring out the 3 championships :1orglaugh

as for this past regular season - kobe was better.
this playoffs, id say its about even. next year and beyond, assuming lebron continues to improve, he will blow kobe away. kobe had an insane year this year, he only put up the same amount of points lebron did this year once in his career - and that happened to be this past year. kobe is 6 years older than lebron. in 6 years, the #s lebron will put up may blow away the #s kobe puts up now, assuming lebron doesn't get hurt and continues to improve.

the fact that this kobe vs lebron can even be argued explains how great lebron is. kobe is 27, in the prime of his career, lebron is 21 - just starting his career. i can't think of anyone who has dominated the game at such an early age like how lebron dominates in todays game. if lebron doesn't get injured and continues to improve, he will win championships and he has a very real chance of going down as the greatest ever.

Great post. :thumbsup :thumbsup I still think Lebron has beem more of a "MVP" than Kobe this year but everyone is allowed their opinions.

He can't win this arguement because there is no statistical proof to back up his claims .. its that simple.

I do love the championship ring crap. Like Kobe won them all by himself .. shit he didn't even have as many game winning shots as Horry did. Fools.

Kobe took almost 4.5 more shots a game than LeBron...That makes him better? I'm confused. If LeBron took that many more shots, his PPG total would have been higher than Kobe's. Being better is based on a lot more than taking a ton of shots.

I didn't say Kobe deserved the MVP, if you read the thread, it asks who the better player is. Not who is better for their team or who is efficient. Kobe is the better player, and this is a universal fact. What proof would you like. We can start with him having absolutely nobody on his team. How about the fact that he can score 30+ on ANY given night, that he dominates games better than Lebron.. Try reading the title of the thread before spewing out nonsense. As for MVP, James is a league below Steve Nash.
Oh, and maybe you should go back to Kobe's first few seasons when he had people to play with, if you think he sucked at Lebron's age..

I think Rich Black Man Who Doesn't Give A Fuck What Any Of You Think #1 is a far better player than Rich Black Man Who Doesn't Give A Fuck What Any Of You Think #2

LeBron can't score 30 any night? He's not a ball hog and he did it 49 times this regular season...second to Kobe's 56 times. Know what you're talking about.

Also, LeBron's done it 5 times in the playoffs to Kobe's 1 time.

A league below Nash, you're fuckin' silly. Almost every player on Phoenix is offensive minded...put LeBron on that team and he would have had 30+ points this year and an easy 10 assists a game. :pimp

Definition of the Better Player is everything, that includes MVP performance.

Then you make a statement about how Kobe has no one on his team. What does that have anything to do with this?

Lebron can obviously score over 30+ a game at anytime. He has proven it.

And seeing that Lebron has shot 2 game winning baskets and your boy has 1. Lebron is the only one playing well on the Cavs and IS dominated games .. more so then Kobe.

And I never said Kobe sucked at 21. But at 21 Lebron has WAY better numbers than Kobe at 21. Shall I post those stats for you?

Did Kobe have shaq at 21? I don't remember.. My point is if I want to make my team better, I would pick Lebron. If I want someone to take the last shot, I would pick Kobe over Lebron any day. And if you think Lebron deserves the MVP trophy over Nash, youre insane.

Make your team better = Lebron

Shoot the last shot = Lebron or Kobe .. they are both clutch. But so far this series, Lebron has 2 game winners and Kobe has 1, so Lebron has a slight edge.

MVP = Lebron. The suns were one of the best teams last year. They did the same thing this year, nothing new. Cavs were not in the playoffs last year. This year they finished with the 3rd best record in the east. Kobe is a better choice for MVP than Nash. But Lebron has done more than either.

Kobe had Shaq his whole career, up until the last two seasons.

understandable about the last shot issue, I wouldn't want LeBron's 4 game winning shots the past month...or the tons game winning assists he's had...who would?

and yeah, I would pick LeBron...if you replaced Nash for LeBron, Phoenix would be better yet. You can't argue with the numbers. LeBron's the 2nd most efficient player in the league. Nash is like 13th. Nash is a great team leader, but he can't take over a game like LeBron...and LeBron would easily have the same amount of assists a game if he played with as many offensive players as Nash has. I'd give myself 7+ assists a game if I played on that team.

Yet you put Nash on any team, and he will automatically make the players play to their fullest potential. Lebron makes his teammates better but they don't play their hearts out. Yes he can take over a game, but he can't make his teammates have career seasons like Nash.. And yes, I would pick Kobe to have the last shot.. Why don't you dig up statistics to see who has more game winners this year.. I'd say Kobe more than doubles Lebron. I guarantee you if the suns win today's game, Nash will be crowned MVP again, just as he deserves.. Somebody that takes a team wthout their best player, and gets them a better record than last year deserves mvp.. IT would be Nash as first pick, Kobe as second, and Lebron as third.. Again, it's everyone's opinion here but I'm stating facts.

I love how you made shit up. I'll work on the game winners this season and get back to you on that one.

But as for Nash making his team better than last year without Amare, you are wrong.
Last Season 62 - 20
This Season 54 - 28

The Suns were way better last year. I'm not sure where you get your stats from dude. Thats why I don't think Nash should be MVP again. He didn't do anything that special. The Suns lost Amare and Joe Johnson but Bell and Barbosa got way more playing time and they are great players. Shit the whole Suns team is great and they make Nash look even better. Lebron carried the Cavs to the Playoffs for the first time since 1995 and the first second round appearance since 1992

And again, without Nash those players wouldn't be shit. You fail to realize that Nash makes his players play to their fullest potential and then some. Lebron is a play maker but he doesn't make his players better on the level that Nash does. That's why Nash was MVP last year, and that's why Nash is deserving of it this year. Even with 8 more losses, the Suns weren't even supposed to make it into the playoffs this year without Amare, yet they got the #2 seed. I'd like to see Lebron do something like that..

wow...you just showed how well you pay attention to anything to do with the NBA.

And Nash has won the MVP this year...LeBron was second and Bryant third. The official announcement comes this week I believe.

Phoenix is whole team is pretty much built on offensive type players...you replace Nash with LeBron and Phoenix would have won more games than they did last year.

Phoenix has more naturally offensive/athletic players you moron. Nash is a great player, but with Nash and his teammates...it's pretty much equal as to who makes who look good. Nash's teammates make him look as good as he does them.

Also, I'd like to see one article that said Phoenix wouldn't make the playoffs this year...can you back anything you say up, without making shit up?

You know, personal attacks only weaken your already shitty argument but continue, some of us could use the laughs. You aren't making a point with your "Oh they're more athletic" bullshit peaches. You put Nash on the Cavs, and they would go further with him than with Lebron, because Nash makes everybody around him BETTER, while Lebron does it on a lesser scale. I suggest you quit embarassing yourself with your fanboy arguments and use some common sense. On the note about Phoenix wasn't predicted to make the playoffs this year, I am 100% sure I heard it from various sources during the preseason.

No you didn't...you didn't hear it anyway, unless your buddies are as clueless when it comes to the NBA as you are.

here are a few links that pick them as the top 1 or 2 in their division and a couple pick them making the Western Finals this year. I can't seem to come across anything that places them lower than 2nd in their conference...go figure.

http://www.fanbay.net/nba/projected/western.htm
http://www.nba.com/preview2005/pho.html
http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/news?slu...yhoo&type=lgns
http://www.postchronicle.com/news/sp..._2121023.shtml
http://probasketball.about.com/libra...redictions.htm

Now would these be preseason rankings or what exactly? You still have yet to refute my argument about Nash making everyone better than him on a far greater scale than Lebron, which is why he was MVP last year, and why he is going to win this year.

if you can't tell by watching the two teams that Phoenix is built with better offensive / athletic players than there's something wrong. LeBron would easily have 30+ points and 10+ assists if he replace Nash on Phoenix.

and they're all preseason links....obviously

and Cleveland having missed one of their best players for most of the season and Cleveland finishing only 4 games behind Phoenix, LeBron should have been the MVP this year...he had a lot less to play with and had a monster season. He is way more efficient than Nash and that's a fact.

:thumbsup :thumbsup :thumbsup

Bannerdept, I will see you when I see you.

What Nash did with the suns is just amazing!
Please, remember that 3 starters from last year team didn't return: Quentin Richardson, Joe Johnson and Amare Stoudemire. And Amare is their main offensive weapon.
The Suns got to the playoffs again and won their division with 3 new starter, a small forward playing center (Boris Diaw) and 2 unknows in the wings (James Jones and Raja Bell). This team shouldn't have made the playoffs. And now they're loosing Kurt Thomas, their only true enforcer and rebonder.
This is a totally new team much lesser talented that last year's team and they're still playing great basketball and winning games. I only think of one other player that could have this kind of impact in a team and it was Magic Johnson.
And this is no disrespect to Lebron. He makes his teammates better but in that department nobody is close to Nash right now, not even Kidd.
:2 cents:

Amen.. Although I think Jason Kidd is THE point guard of all point guards.

what do you think it is Kidd does that Nash doesn't? This should be good :1orglaugh

beats his wife?

You guys are all retarted. Last time I checked Shawn Marion as an All Star and on the Suns.

Quicksand - What the helll are you talking about "Kurt Thomas, their only true enforcer and rebonder". You are a fool. That is the stupiest thing I have ever heard. Marion is the enforcer and rebounder. Go sink in some quicksand.

The Cavs lost players too. Larry Hughes and Anderson Verejo missed almost the whole year. Anderson is Z's backup and a damn good one.

Demon and Quicksand, neither of you make any sense. You say things without thinking. The Suns have pretty much all offensive players no matter how you slice it. Thats why the team scores so many damn points.

And Demon to say if you put Nash on the Cavs instread of Lebron and he would make everyone better has finally proved you have an IQ less than 80. Lebron is far more superior than Nash in all aspects of the game.

You both need to get off the heavy drugs before it kills you.

This coming from a fanboy that has a career in the adult industry. Please, quit while you're behind. Your pathetic excuses that include "oh but they're offensive players" have no bearing to the degree of excellence Nash brings out in all of his players.. And since Nash is MVP again, we do make sense, while you're left to cry, moan, and bitch about Lebron being left out.. Majority rules in these types of debates, sorry Adam..

And of course there is no such thing as politics in voting. Ok ... I know its all truth.

Point is .. you put Lebron on the Suns instead of Nash, they'll win more games. You put Nash on the Cavs instead of Lebron and you lose more games. I really don't know how you don't see this.

And as for Kobe ... put him on either team and both teams lose more games.

Just curious ... where are you from and where did you grow up?

The Phoenix Suns would gladly trade Nash for Kobe or Lebron if the numbers made sense.

I am going to stay out of the Lebron / Kobe argument, but Nash is not as good as either IMO.

Can you tell me what you think Nash does better than James? And to think Cleveland would be better with Nash on the team, than James is one of the stupidest things anyone could say. Where are they going to get that missed offense? There's not a team in the NBA that wouldn't be better minus their star player and replacing him with James.

I know you are a Lakers fan and I totally agree with you. I would rather have Kobe any day of the week over Nash. Not even a doubt. :thumbsup

I don't want to take anything away from what Nash brings to the table. But choosing Nash over Kobe or Lebron is like an NFL team not drafting Reggie Bush first.

Oh wait??? haha

Seriously, some guys are so many levels above the rest that it doesn't matter if you even need them, you make room.

How is it a pathetic excuse that there are more offensive / athletic players on Phoenix than Cleveland?

I don't think you can argue Kobe vs. Lebron. IMO, it is what your franchise needs at the time.

If you have a team that has some winning history, I choose Kobe. If I am rebuilding from the ground up, I choose Lebron (his age and talent is unprecedented).

You can predict the future as much as you like, it will get you nowhere.

At the end of the day, both guys are a franchise's wet dream.

here's a prediction, LeBron will win more Championships from here on than Nash and Bryant will combined. :pimp

I pretty much agree. Only one thing .. and thats team moral. Kobe is known to be solo player and he rats out teammates. A lot of players mother fucked him when he ratted out Shaq. However, Lebron is a team player and brings the team moral up.

I bet if you ask 100 NBA players who they would rather play with, Lebron would easily win that.

As long as he stays healthy ... :thumbsup :thumbsup :thumbsup

You are missing something in all this. Championships require great players, but also a great system.

Kobe is in a great system with Phil and Buss. Lets just say that Kobe isn't as good as Lebron, that doesn't mean he will get more titles.

What if the Lakers pull out the checkbook and get Garnett? Him and Kobe reel off a few titles? What if the Cavs don't support Lebron by putting talent around him? Happens all the time...

You are predicting the future, too many variables.

BTW, Kobe has 3. See theory on Buss and Phil.

Yea, good luck with that prediction.. He has to be traded first to have a chance.. I don't think he'll win more than 1 championship, if that, with the team he has now..

Dude, I was just talking about the Cavs trying to get Garnett the other day. You put him on etiher the Cavs or Lakers and you have 1 - 2 championships locked in. I feel so bad for him. He is one of the best players in the league. Too bad he signed the crazy contract.

Name a player on LeBron's level that didn't win titles? Cleveland is going to be a dynasty, if LeBron stays healthy...it's a fact. Look where the team has come in only three seasons...all on the back of a kid 18-21 years of age.

That comment proves you're a fuckin' retard.

Banner, you're just talking out of your ass now.. Dynasty? Give me a break.. Quit your fanboy arguments and use common sense