150........

I feel if someone comes here legally and learns English, pays taxes and doesn't ask the government for help is more than welcome here.


:)

No, you're right. They didn't ask. They just took what ever they wanted.

And killed the natives if they didn't get it.

Not true. The first european settlers to come to this country arrived peacefully. Others later negotiated with natives for land. It was much later that any significant battles were fought over territory.

http://www.weymouth.ma.us/history/index.asp?id=2598


Once they realized they were in trouble, the Wessagusset men joined with the Plymouth settlers for some foraging and trading expeditions, and they did bring home some food. But by late winter, they ran out again. They then turned to the Indians and here again, they failed in their dealings. They traded for corn, giving up clothes and blankets or performing services for them like cutting wood. This did not gain them respect, and when some of them began to steal corn from the Indians, things got worse.

"I believe this Government was made on the white basis. I believe it was made by white men for the benefit of white men and their posterity for ever, and I am in favor of confining citizenship to white men, men of European birth and descent, instead of conferring it upon negroes, Indians, and other inferior races."

- Stephen A. Douglas

i wonder what those negotiations must have been like, "give me your land or else"

supposedly they traded some prime new york real estate for some beads or something :upsidedow

dunno man, it doesn't really matter now. everyone involved in the transactions is long since dead, some people seem to like to blame anyone living now with a white face for what happened to other people that have been dead for many centuries... it doesn't seem to accomplish very much for them though.

Why do people that support theft and don't know their history always say this?

are you proud to be an american?

escorpia, don't try to twist this around, YOU are the one who supports theft: http://www.gofuckyourself.com/showpo...&postcount=108

now go plead for more gay prison sex like you did in these posts you little bitch:
http://www.gofuckyourself.com/showpo...&postcount=121
http://www.gofuckyourself.com/showpo...&postcount=126

all things considered, yes

Sorry, but if you support the original settlers of North America, you support theft.

I can't wait to make you my bitch. When will you be coming down to defend the border? Or are you just a talker? :1orglaugh

If you ever called me escorpia to my face I would bust you in the mouth so hard you'd be sucking hospital food thru a straw for a month. But you never will because you'll never come to the border. You're just a little cheerleader for the men who do your dirty work. Fucking pussy.

"escorpio
This message is hidden because escorpio is on your ignore list. "

I almost wonder what his response was, but it doesn't seem to vary much.

Ignore is for weepy little girls. :1orglaugh

Nice playing with you. I had fun. :)

oh this is great fun. I can watch the little twit get all excited and make post after post without ever seeing any of his idiocy

Or answering to your own idiocy. :1orglaugh

You know minors are not allowed on adult webmaster boards right? or maybe just go to bed man you need some sleep badly? :helpme

:1orglaugh
whatever man. I enjoy watching this cretin squirm after he said he endorses theft and that he wants to "skull fuck" me. That must make me immature :321GFY

http://www.jtf.org/sss.aztlan.america.gif

Its amazing how blind Americans are to what's going down here.

It's just like the migration pattern of killer bees. It looks like a war invasion map.

We're fucked. Seriously. The white race isn't creating kids like they used to, and the hispanics are doing it like rabbits.

Hope everyone is ready to become a minority too, because the day is coming.

:1orglaugh :1orglaugh

Exactamundo Smitty.

I do not hear most people saying fuck the Mexicans and immigrants. It's the fact they are illegal.

Noone cares if they mow the laws, butcher out MceeDee's order, or slave in the fields. It's the face they are illegal, and do not pay into the tax base that rapes the rest of us.

If nothing else, Americans hate paying taxes, and are against a free hand out to anyone from those taxes on the whole.

If you wanna take these millions of illegals that are here already, and make them citizens fine.

1, They learn ENGLISH is this country's launguage.

2, We do not owe you anything. You lost the American-Mexican war.

3, You pay in the the same tax system that rapes the rest of us.

If you want the benefits of the American economy, society, country, health system, and culture. Then you have to adapt to that culture. Which includes PAYING into the system like the rest of us. Learning OUR language and values.

Not expecting us to accept yours.

:2 cents:

This debate is less about race than it is about economics. Sure, racists will jump on the bandwagon, but not supporting illegal immigration does not make one a racist.

Under the current system, stats indicate that illegal immigration is a burden to working class and middle class Americans. Illegal immigrants are hard workers and contribute to the economy, but the low wages they make, the money they send home, and all of the benefits they receive in the US costs much more. I watched Larry King last night. The figures were that $7 billion are pumped into the economy by illegal immigrants but that it costs $50 billion to American tax payers for the benefits they receive. It's really no laughing matter for those who are interested in their future and the future of the country.

The immigration policy needs to be reformed probably to allow more immigrants and in a quicker period of time. The US does well with immigration which is why the US is the only Western nation that lets more than 1.3 million new legal immigrants into the country each year. Border does need to be patrolled and secured. Businesses exploiting illegal immigrants need to be shut down and their owners jailed for the free ride they've been getting for the past 40 years from cheap illegal labor, and forced to repay as much money as can be gotten from them for costing jobs to Americans. Guest worker programs need to be set up.

One thing you cannot do is normalize illegal immigration. It is illegal. It's not the same as running a red light. It's impact is far greater than people who run red lights. A nation can only remain sovereign if it enforces immigration laws.

It's perhaps also time to re-evaluate our own internal polies too. People say illegal immigrants do the jobs that Americans won't. To some degree this is likely true in some areas or fields of work in specific locales, but that is not a valid argument in favor of illegal immigration. Perhaps this means that it's time to pay higher salaries for back breaking labor so that Americans will do the work. People pushing around pen and paper making 10 times more than people on their hands and kneeds in the summer heat makes no sense. You can also enlist legal immigrants do to this work as is done in places like Canada. Perhaps it's not as cheap as exploiting illegal immigrants, but it's legal and cheaper than some greedy Americans may want for the job.

Their are enough problems regarding finances even without incorporating illegal immigration into the debate. Middle class incomes have risen in years nor has the minimum wage. Their are professionals in this country making $10-$20k per year. Can one not see why their may be some resentment among working class Americans toward a favorable policy toward illegal immigration.

Its about everything. When the hispanic population reaches an equal political footing as the white population as is clearly happening already in the southwest, you've got the balance of power, both economic and political, going into limbo land and limbo land is what creates volatility because no one group has a majority.

Illegals can't vote. So the politicans do not care if you have millions of Latino bodies. They only care about the VOTING people who are in their districts.

:2 cents:

If race is an issue it's a peripheral one. Their are many legal Mexican immigrants who are not in favor of the protests and not in favor of illegal immigration because they realize this is an economic issue. Nobody, not even the illegal immigrants, would benefit from America becoming a mere extension of Mexico and that can happen if America is forced to saddle too many economic and political problems too quickly. Race really muddies the waters and removes focus on what the central issues are. Why is California's economy is such disarray? How do we provide better opportunities for immigrants, including legal Mexican immigrants when they do come to this country rather than having them as illegals working in pre-industrialized conditions and wages? A 2nd generation Mexican-American has just as much to lose if the economy goes to squat as does any other American.

When you talk about race you're really talking about cultural differences. And of coarse, those are other issues to look at. No sane person should be afraid of Spanish or somebody who speaks with an accent. People who come willing to adopt American cultural values and language is what we all should want. If I moved to any other country, I should and would try to learn their language and values.

But as soon as those illegal immigrants have a child or "Anchor Baby" as was the term used by Lou Dobbs yesterday on Larry King, the child is considered legal in the current interpretation of citizenship law. That interpretation is exactly that, an interpretation. Theoretically it could be interpreted the other way or the law could be made so that it doesn't matter if you have a child or not, you do not gain citizenship. But that's not the case right now, so KRL is right that this population while not a voting populace right now surely will be within one generation.

Yeah you do sound like you just listened to Lou Dobbs alright lol. Lou Dobbs doesn't provide balanced news. He never provides ANY info that'd be favorable to illegal immigrant side of the issue but just his belief that it's not good for America. Now, if economists have the same beliefs as him there wouldn't be any argument. Also, "Anchor Baby" is an age old derogatory term used to refer to babies born to illegal immigrants not copyrighted to Lou Dobbs. Children born in the United States are automatically entitled to U.S. citizenship. This rule operates as an inducement to illegal immigration, because immigrants often wish to confer the boon of U.S. citizenship on their children born here, and also believe that if their children are citizens this will make it less likely that they (the parents) will be deported. But in reality that's not the case, if those illegal parents are caught by authority they are still immediately deported without any chance to appear in court to argue his case.

Yeah now, according to Lou Dobbs biased crunch of numbers illegals are costing billions of dollars becasue he doesn't factor indirect contributing numbers in his equation for example:

new drugs: manufacturers have greater incentive to invest in discovering treatments for common rather than rare diseases since by definition common diseases have larger markets. More generally, expenditures on innovations tend to be more profitable as population and the total demand for new products rises since it is then more possible to recoup the often very large initial costs of developing the products. Drug producers and other innovators charge much more than the cost of producing each unit in order to recoup these development costs.

incentive to specialize: narrow skills get larger larger incentive when the market for these skills is bigger as the illegals bring growth of market. Since the number of sellers and buyers who interact together determines market size, economic progress is greater, given per capita incomes, when population is larger legal or illegal.

by increasing the labor supply illegals lower labor costs hence product and service prices, to the benefit of consumers. Also, though they avoid some taxes and receive some taxpayer-supported benefits, they receive fewer benefits than they confer.

He doesn't also factor in the numbers/trillions that are being wasted in wars based on lies now does he? Even thou that waste is much bigger? The United States has the largest and one of the most technologically advanced national economies in the world, with a GDP of 13.049 trillion dollars. Even if his argument was true few billions wasted on illegals would do nothing to hurt U.S. economy.

Since there really isn't a serious economic argument to make against illegal immigration from Mexico. Cultural backlash is pretty much all that's left. Not so long ago, it was widely believed that a person's rights and privileges should depend on the color of their skins. Even as recently as 50 years ago in the United States it was widely believed that it was justified to restrict the places a person could live on the basis of their skin color (racial segregation). There were two reasons for this belief: greed and fear. One group of people who had power believed that they could benefit economically and in terms of security by restricting the freedom and rights of another arbitrary group of people. Now, not all but most people don't like illegals because of modernized racist or prejudice feelings (like it's ok to be anti-illegal cause we got a very good excuse to be because these people violated an immigration law and Lou Dobb said it hurt our economy.. j/k not calling you a racist Mike, I can tell you maybe a reasonable person but just had a bit too much of Lou Dobb dozes hehe). Hopefully anti-immigrant sentiments would eventually fade away like racism or homophobia thou I know some will argue that racism/prejudice hasn't faded away but hey atleast seemingly it did :winkwink:

:1orglaugh :1orglaugh :1orglaugh
Uhm, your arguement is that if greater numbers of diseased people are in this country then there might be more incentive to create new drugs?

Nevermind all the other healthcare costs inherent in this scenario that will put a far greater drain on the economy. :error
Nevermind the increased potential for transmittable diseases. :error

You want more ill people in the USA. Now what could be wrong with that plan you have there?! :1orglaugh

You are only selecting issues that topically appear to benefit illegals and that are in reality at the expense of those who actually belong here.

Actually, you are forgetting the fact with the "anchor babies" born here that as soon as they turn 17, they can go fill out the paperwork, and their illegal parents are then automatically given citizenship.

:disgust

Increasing the supply of low cost labor decreases the need for employers to compete for labor and thus decreases everyone's wages. Remove the portion of the labor pool willing to work for peanuts and the average wage will increase. You'd rather see everyone have lower pay by your logic. Another brilliant idea. :error

LOL, look at the map and keep saying that. Illegals can't vote, illegals can't vote.

:1orglaugh :1orglaugh :1orglaugh

Or companies will just close up. You can't just convert economic realities with the snap of a finger and say ok now our company is going to start paying 1,000 workers at the non-illegal rate and think a company will be able to stay competitive in the marketplace and profitable.

:1orglaugh

Thanks, your evaluation of me is spot on:)

I'm looking at things from a purely economic standpoint. I see people on both sides with emotions invested in their arguments. I try to be as objective as possible. Immigration is good and required and illegal immigration is important but we have to begin at least legalizing the process by which current illegal immigrants work to protect them from exploitation and for us to know who is in the country and what is being contributed. It's immoral to have 12 million people living in the shadows. It's difficult for us to get a handle on the true weight if any it has on the system. Various economists give us polar stats and this is because nobody has enough information to come to a consensus. I'm in favor of immigration and even increased immigration but before we do that we should probably try to right the problems in the current system from persisting any longer. This will require securing the border, introducing worker programs, easier paths to citizenship, punishing companies that utilize illegal workers and so on.

if a company can't operate legally it shouldn't remain in business :2 cents:

all companies must abide by labor laws. the transition period for those who can't make it on a level and legal playing field would be undesireable, but it is necessary, and frankly the owners of such companies have brought it upon themselves.

Most of us are in favor of the closing down and punishment of companies that have used illegal workers to remain in business. Companies aren't fond of passing down cheaper production costs to consumers just because they can produce at cheaper rates. If a company sells you a product for $10 that cost $5 to make and they all of a sudden find a way to produce it at a cost of $2, the consumer will still pay $10 for the product. and the company will bank the extra $3 per product sold.

:thumbsup right on.

This is also true. Dell fucking pisses me off when they redirect their customer support center calls to Hyderabad, India? Wtf? I paid top dollars (their prices never went down/not less than competitors) for their products and all i get for support is some guy with a very heavy accent asking if I knew how to turn the computer on :Oh crap I think that's even worse. Now these companies even paying lot less than what they would pay the illegals here in the United States yet getting away with it just cause nobody defined that act to be "illegal". These guys are taking some actual good jobs away from Americans but that's kosher cause atleast Americans not having to "see" these brown guys playing with their brown kids in the neighborhood. :helpme

You are so ingnorant that it's beyond funny :( If you weren't so ignorant you'd read some studies done by people with merit and realize that it's not my idea or an idea of a pornmonger like yourself, but just studies done by respected economists.

Illegal immigration does not decrease everyone's wages but only wages of highschool dropouts by 3.6%. Now before jumping into saying okay immigrants are undercutting the wages of the least fortunate Americans, maybe consider Ohio. Unlike California, Ohio remains mostly free of illegal immigrants. And what happened to the wages of Ohio's high school dropouts from 1980 to 2004? They fell 31 percent. Must be the invisible mexicans doing voodoo there huh? Across the entire labor force, the effect of illegal immigrants is 0% (again not my idea), because the presence of uneducated immigrants actually increases the earnings of more educated workers, including high school graduates. For instance (just 1 example here so the simpleminds know), higher-skilled workers could hire foreigners at low wages to mow their lawns and care for their children, freeing time for these workers to earn more.

Now, "If you're a native high school dropout in this economy, you've got a slew of problems of which immigrant competition is but one, and a lesser one at that," said Jared Bernstein of the Economic Policy Institute, a liberal research group and I very much agree with him :winkwink:

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/04/16/bu...erland&emc=rss

You made some good points. :thumbsup

Since I'm not a politican, nor live in the Southwest, it makes me no nevermind.

:rasta

I'm ignorant, huh? And that's because you've read some studies somewhere and you are too stupid to discern what is unbiased research.

I happen to live in Ohio dipshit. Unlike you, I do know what I'm talking about in this instance. If you had any real knowledge of this you would know that that there ARE a great deal of migrant workers in the area. Not to the extent that there are in California, however if you visit just about any orchard, farm, or other place with entry level manual labor in the area you will find a good number of migrant laborers. Many of them are being paid under the table (so their wages - and even their existance - are not tracked and this information is not available to your so called 'experts').

You have pointed out that the wages in this area have dropped significantly from 1980 to 2004. There are many migrant workers here now. I do not recall seeing very many of them in 1980.

Now the question is are you capable of reaching a conclusion about their effect in this area based on this knowledge or do you need it spoon fed to you by someone with a title?

that was then, this is now. women were considered and treated as property then. when you see women being treated in such a way now, do you think its ok because thats how it was way back when? it was a completely different time and a completely different situation. america should forever be ashamed of how they slaughtered the native culture and people but it doesn't mean they have to allow in anyone just because anyone could get in at one time.

you don't care about the jobs that illegal immigrants take because it doesn't effect you but it does effect someone. what about the labourers who rely on construction jobs but can't compete with the wages illegal immigrants are willing to work for? you make a good point thought about it being used as a distraction from the war. thats a classic republican move. i totally agree with that.

Somewhere? Did you read the article? It was published in NY Times, similar articles been published on msn, washington post, times etc. So I have given you an url to an article on research by very credible experts (so the simpletons know, none of these experts are Illegal Mexicans themselves) and cause it doesn't feed what your racist mind needs to be fed you call it biased? Yeah man! You know they say black people are slaves nomore but i know that's a biased statement cause my Klan says it's untrue :1orglaugh
You are an idiot. You do it to yourself not me. You keep making a moron out of yourself. What makes you think I do not or never lived in places like Dayton, Toledo, Cincinnatti, Columbus, Canton, Akron, Hudson, Cleveland, Youngstown Ohio? Yes ohio does have some migrant workers but they are mostly legal migrants mr. clueless dingdong. And what makes you think that you are smart and are realizing and experts are dumb and not realizing that some native-borns, legals, and illegals being paid under the table?
Yet my recollection says I haven't seen any significant increase in illegal immigration in Ohio since 1980. Yes orchard, farm, or other place with entry level manual labor in the area I have visited I have seen some "legal" migrant laborers. However, legal migrants from India are also coming in alright buying almost all motel businesses in Ohio. As one could easily assume if they are brown they are illegal and hurting our economy. I say deport all those brownies! :mad: :1orglaugh
Based on this knowledge? You mean statement you just made out of your wild anal imagination that they are coming.. taking all our jobs? Oh nawh man ofcourse not! I do not need to be spoon fed by renouned economists, I just need to be spoon fed by someone holding the title "I am a PornMonger and a Racist" :1orglaugh

You are really caught up in labels :2 cents:

If you're unwilling to do any critical thinking for yourself but just want to mindlessly repeat what you have read elsewhere it is pointless to attempt to discuss anything with you.

Please keep believing everything you read and believing that anyone who disagrees with you is racist and ignorant, the outcome should be amusing :1orglaugh

:1orglaugh :1orglaugh :1orglaugh

You got to be kidding. I've never seen a company do things perfectly legally in my entire business career. Everyone has a trick up their sleves of one kind or another. That's business.

No I'm not kidding.

I have never once worked for a company that has repeatedly violated federal labor laws, to my knowledge. If you know of some that are you should report them.

:1orglaugh :1orglaugh :1orglaugh
I can't believe some of the intelligent people are still trying to explain things to this inbred. Let him go back to playing banjo on the porch with his brother/cousin.