imagration and illegal aliens are 2 unrelated issues

well america is full of immigrants

Duh! You have any idea what kinda law these border crossers are violating? In your little head they maybe that BIG BAAD LAW BREAKERS but in reality it's not much more than violating an immigration law which is no felony but merely a civil offence. We are always well aware that violating traffic laws are wrong and could even cost lives but we still do it anyways if we are for whatever reason in a hurry getting somewhere. By your logic laws exist for a reason and we have demonstrated time and again that we are unwilling to follow them therefore, i don't think we should be let stay in this country. Now they even got better reasons than what we usually violate traffic laws for it's called "bring food to the table for onself and his family". But hey who cares lets deport all lawbreakers, everybody including you and me :2 cents: (and oh! with the exception of my grandma she's a super careful driver, even drives 1/2 the speed of max limit lol)

No, what you proposed is NOT my problem.
My family is here and they are not starving or looking for excuses to break the laws of a foreign country. You proposed a situation that encompasses the above. LEARN ENGLISH :1orglaugh

Why is it that you think a person who doesn't care about the people of Mexico is a 'raging hate filled nationalist'? Does that make it easier for you to dismiss the validity of their concerns? If you understood english properly then you would understand that if one doesn't care about a group, then by definition they don't hold hatred for them either.

Umm the Hard working Americans with no health insuance right? :error

Funny thats what many Republicans say about welfare, yet if we say "Not my problem" we are heartless racist bastards. :1orglaugh

Exactly. The problem is that the laws do not provide punishment commensurate to the crimes that are being committed.

What is being discussed by our government is turning these into felony offenses so that the violators would not be treated so kindly. The laws and the consequences of breaking these laws are not effective against these people. When most visitors come to the USA they behave as most visitors do when travelling to any foreign country. They are grateful for being received and abide by the laws of the country they enter.

These people do not.

Therefore they need to be dealt with more severely.

I dunno why but I have a feeling that he does understand english atleast better than you lol. If one doesn't care about just a certain group and speaks up against them over and again then by definition of racism makes him a racist. Therefore, I'm guessing you you'd like to be called a RACIST over anti-immigrant?

There is an easy way to find one. Get a cat by the tail.. swing it... Hit 3 people with it, one of them probably is pure anti immigration. :thumbsup

It IS your problem because these people are coming into the U.S. and you don't like the results. Therefore, you have a problem. Understand? If you "don't care about the people of Mexico" why do you spend so much time posting in these threads?

51 :thumbsup

Regards,

Lee

:1orglaugh
You won't hurt my feelings if you want to call me a racist, but that would not be true either. Neither am I anti-immigrant; the illegals are not 'immigrants' they are criminals. I have no problem with those who have arrived here legally, whether from Mexico or elsewhere.

If you notice I have never once spoken against law abiding Mexicans AT ALL. They are of no concern to me and I neither 'support them' somehow nor do I hold anything against them.

The only people I have spoken AGAINST are the criminals that enter our borders illegally, and a good many of them are Mexican. They do not tarnish the image of law abiding Mexicans to me even though they do seem to often try to dismiss their criminal border hopping as being a 'cultural issue'.

I don't think the Mexican culture itself condones criminality, though even some outspoken Mexicans here insist that it does :2 cents:

LEARN ENGLISH!
You proposed a situation that does not exist for me and I told you that it was not my problem.

That is a separate matter from your second statement about the illegals coming into the US. Do you understand?
Because this really has nothing to do with the people of Mexico as far the United States is concerned.

It has to do with illegals entering the Unites States. The fact that they originate from Mexico or from Timbuktu is of no concern except for which area of the border needs to be guarded more effectively.

What situation did I propose that does not exist for you and isn't your problem? I am confused.

And as you could see it's not being as easy as the government expected it to be. Because it's an humanitarian crisis not a crisis that could be turned into felony by some cold-hearted racists. There's no economical evidence that illegal immigration actually harm the economy in any fashion other than the heads of racist bunch.
"These" people? so you think you are better than "these" people cause your ancestors happened to cross border early in time? And cause it was "Legal" by the white immigrants in those days to kill native Indians or drive them off their lands so your ancestors could claim they "LEGALLY" migrated to this country? You crack me up! :helpme
Most visitors overstay their VISAs and in turn become illegal aliens. However, they do abide by the laws of this country ie. all law except an immigration law yes that's a BIG BAAD Violation of law lol. Now, legal immigrant or illegal immigrant they both have a common noun in them being "immigrant" and that's for a reason and they are no criminals so far neither will they ever be except for in a racist mind maybe :winkwink: I'm not trying to hurt your feeling here either I'm just saying it like it is. Anyways, gotta go visit my sister-in-laws newborn twins and no, not a touch of mexican there it's all only itallian blood in their veins but please try not to become racist against them too now thou lol.

"Here's a game YOU can play in your backyard...

Draw a line. Have a family member sit on one side, you sit on the other. On your side have lots of food, shelter and the other basic necessities of life. On the other side give them nothing. How long will it take before they cross over to your side for their own survival, regardless of how illegal you say it is?

I've tried to simplify it as much as I can for you. Have fun playing! "

This is what I was referring to.

You're right. I think people that repeatedly violate traffic laws should be exiled because "Laws exist for a reason and these people have demonstrated time and again that they are unwilling to follow them. They are aware that what they are doing is wrong and they continue to do it anyway - do you think that is the type of person that should be let into this country?"

Then this situation does not exist for me and isn't my problem, I legally cross the border several times a week.

What made it "sound like" I was born in Mexico? It was never even implied. Learn English!

This issue is huge and the truth seems to be that, short of murdering people who illegally enter thru Mexico or a complete social and economic evolution within Mexico, the future will only see more illegal immigration.

The solutions put forth are short term and really don't solve the problem. Guest worker programs and amnesty will do nothing to stop the flow of illegal immigration from Mexico. Making the process for obtaining legal immigration easier will not stop the flow of illegal immigration either. So long as the enormous disparity between the two nations exist, people will risk everything to come over. We don't see this happen between Canada and the US because both countries offer so much to their own citizens (in the way of freedoms, opportunity, etc) so their is little necessity to risk life and limb to live illegally in either of the two countries when you already have citizenship in one of them. Whenever you have drastic economic and social differences in neighboring nations, you'll find people trying to escape into the better country.

I'm not up on my history and the hows and whys of how things came to be this way but it is this way. It seems to be me there is only two possibilities for the future. One is that large parts of current day America will become essentially extensions of Mexico (California already is?). The other possibility is that their will be a revolution in Mexico, perhaps with the assistence of the US, that will bring Mexico into the realm of a first world nation. When that happens, illegally immigration would be a issue of the past.

So I guess we should want to see more of this: 1) opening of equitable trade and industry between the two nations 2) pressure from Mexicans, Mexican-Americans, and the US on the Mexican government for reforms and to eliminate the corruption that goes on within it.

These suggestions may seem outlandish and may be we are nowhere near implementing such steps but I don't see this issue going away without them. Either the US becomes hugely Mexican-ized (and some may argue there is no problem in this at all - this is how nations evolve), or the US remains pretty much as it is with a re-invented Mexico to its south.

And why in your mind are they 'racists' to want to see the laws enforced more effectively? The laws don't target anyone by ethnicity or country of origin, only those who have broken existing laws regardless of their ethnicity/country of origin.

Yes "those" people, the illegals. Do you have a problem with the word "these"?

BTW when my ancestors crossed into this country they did it legally, they learned the language of the land, they did not ask the government for hand-outs, and they did not demand that the existing American culture accomodate them. Neither did they drive any natives off their lands when they arrived.

uhm, so you think that they're 'illegal' but they're not 'criminals'?
:1orglaugh :1orglaugh :1orglaugh

that makes no sense at all

in your attempt at sarcasm you must have forgotten that those who repeatedly break traffic laws eventually lose their driver's license - a punishment fit for the crime.

Now I wonder what the appropriate punishment would be for someone who keeps breaking immigration laws.... hmmm.....

OK, so it's not my problem or your problem. I won't ask why you brought it up in the first place.

My mistake. You mentioned in another thread somewhere about moving to Mexico after your son graduates. As you have gone to great lengths desribing the horrid conditions of the area, I assumed you would not be moving there unless it was your country of origin and you wanted to return home.

Once we all finally agree on one point of view, we will have become the first group of people in history to solve a national problem by bitching about it on a message board.

It will be glorious. :D

Any pointers to what "american values" are? I've never heard many other countries talk about their "values" - so assume this is something rare and unusual? :pimp

American values are enshrined within the Constitution for anybody that wants to read it. They're not rare in Western nations, but to most people and most countries in the world, they probably are.

And I am willing to bet that 60% or more of the people on this board does not know that this is inscribed on the book that the statue of liberty is holding.

But the punishment should be more harsh so we can really do something about those traffic lawbreakers!

Isn't that what you're proposing for illegal immigrants? Harsher laws and penalties? Correct me if I'm wrong, I'm not positive on your position on this.

It says "Fuck off, you gawd damn foreigners!", right? :winkwink:

I thought we were playing a "let's make simple analogies" game. My bad.


Horrid conditions do not exist all over the country. Horrid conditions exist for some people in some areas. I'm moving because I like the culture, the people and the beaches. :)

Thanks Mike... always wondered where these "values" were comming from. Basically the stuff most of the western world have in place already and something almost taken from granted.

Ironically one of the most "progressive" countries with "values" is not even really considered a "western country", but "third world". Example... their Constitution on eg. on issues of privacy - even the govt have no rights to know the affairs of it's citizens. It's a democracy in the true sense and with extensive individual rights down to the air being breathed - to healthcare matching that of the US (usually ranking 2nd and 3rd with the US annually but a fraction of the cost), thru to rights to remove a govt rapidly if they misbehave. Any government officer acting in a repressive way is committing a criminal offense (the end result of that is kinda funny in that law enforcement are more "friends" than assholes with an attitude) - even drug dealers can't be raided at night since they are entitled to the right to sleep. :pimp

Funny story... taxi drivers go on strike and want their mileage rates increased - so they block all the main roads with taxis. Police come along and start wondering where to start and refer back to the government for guidance. The govt of course are wary of using "strong arm" tactics since this can be construed as "repressive" and if they took that action - they would be out of power next week.

So... instead the cab drivers and police agreed to have a football match on the highway and the loser will agree to abide with the winners terms. The taxi drivers won the game, but everyone decided to go home anyways since the point had been made and everyone needed something to eat.

Despite that, nothing is perfect, but I kinda like these values :)

The country is Costa Rica BTW..

I don't think there is much of a problem with traffic laws and the consequences of breaking them at the moment - the penalties are stringent enough to deter the commission of most of those crimes already.

However people are breaking the immigration laws with seemingly very little concern for the penalties - so the penalties must be increased in order for the laws to be taken more seriously.

I see.
Yes, that is what I was getting at. My point with the 'crossing line' instance was to demonstrate the 'complexity' you were claiming existed, not to imply that you were an illegal.

You said it was a 'complex' issue but then summed it up quickly in a few words only a few posts later.

The laws will continue to be broken no matter how harsh the penalties. There is little alternative for many. This is a "crime" born of the most extreme desperation. You seem to be under the impression people do it just because it's "easy", which it really isn't.

I'm not arguing with the "but it's ILLEGAL!" argument. That's a simple truth. Now let's take a look at why it's happening and what can be done about it. That's where it gets complex. You can sit and whine "but it's ILLEGAL!" and make harsh laws and penalties and you will not be successful at stopping it as long as you have economic disparity of that magnitude between neighboring countries.

This is where I disagree... a more secure border will stop the vast majority of them from entering and if the few that do manage to get past that border face harsher penalties, that would undoubtedly deter even more of them.

Right now how many attempts to cross the border are successful? I have no idea, but for the sake of arguement let's say 90% of the people that try succeed. If the border is secured and that drops from 90% to let's say 1%, many will simply stop trying. Even more will stop trying if the penalties are harsher.

The logistics of the above can be viewed as simply or as complex as you want, however the concept itself is very simple - secure the border and increase the penalties.

It's so simple in fact that even those so called "rednecks" that you like to post pictures of are doing it with a volunteer group. Just imagine how easy it would be with proper funding.

None of this addresses the economic disparity you mentioned, however that is just not our problem. That is a problem that Mexico must address itself and if it needs US help to solve that problem, and the US stands to benefit from it in some way, then so be it... but the USA shouldn't be expected to bail them out at the expense of the taxpayers just to get the illegals to stop breaking the law, that's tantamount to extortion and most Americans do not and will not support it.

That's supposed to say "revolution" not "evolution". And I wanted to add that guest worker programs and amnesty will only increase illegal immigration.

Yes, it's racist cause they even came up with the idea because they thought Americans would side with them = more votes nothing else. Not because they are or not if the illegals stayed in this country or left.
Yes, I have a problem with any racist remark people make.
They did it "legally" by the standard of the white people or natives? And the government back then really didn't have any hand-outs to give out unless ofcourse your ancestors are those of the newer immigrants? In that case yes they did feed on what my ancestors built on. I fucking hate the noobs :1orglaugh
You just keep trying to beat around the bush with that word don't you? Pretty lame man! But yes, it makes them as much of a criminal as it makes anyone running a redlight.
well, if you can ever grow out of racism oneday it'll all make sense to you but til then.. :winkwink:

Let me find you many Americans straight from the history:

U.S. *nativism appeared in the late 1790s in reaction to the political refugees from France and Ireland. After passage of the Alien and Sedition Acts in 1798 it receded. Nativist outbursts occurred in the Northeast from the 1830s to the 1850s, primarily in response to a surge of Irish Catholic immigration. In 1836, Samuel F. B. Morse ran unsuccessfully for Mayor of New York on a Nativist ticket, receiving 1,496 votes. In New York City, an Order of United Americans (OUA) was founded as a nativist fraternity, following the Philadelphia Nativist Riots of the preceding spring and summer, in December, 1844.

The Philadelphia Nativist Riots (also known as the Philadelphia prayer riots of 1844 and the Bible Riots) were a series of riots that took place May 3 and July 4, 1844. The riots involved conflicts between nativists and recent Irish Catholic immigrants.

In 1849?50 Charles B. Allen founded a secret nativist society called the Order of the Star Spangled Banner in New York as a result of the fear of immigrants.

Should I go on?

*nativist refers to the socio-political positions taken up by those who identify themselves as "native-born".

What exactly do you think that the taxes they don't pay are for?

You can keep mindlessly squaking that word, though it doesn't mean anything. Maybe someday you'll grow up and learn to accept defeat in a logical arguement instead of shouting 'racist', but I doubt it :1orglaugh

Or perhaps you'll encounter real racism toward yourself one day and won't throw the term around loosely for mere shock value.

They did it legally by the standard of the government that was in place in this country at the time. For some reason it matters to you what color they were... *racist*

Once more in english this time? What ancestors are you referring to? What did they build? Noobs to what? Fill everyone else reading this in on what the hell you're talking about :1orglaugh

Which word? Illegal or criminal? I'm not beating around the bush with anything.

Under current law, unfortunately you are almost right. Fortunately that situation is being remedied and they will be treated more appropriately.