One of the most interesting articles I've read re the whole illegal immigration issue - Page 2 - GoFuckYourself.com

woj · 03-26-2006, 11:02 AM

Cincuenta!...........

Snake Doctor · 03-26-2006, 11:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brad Mitchell

I believe all illegals should be removed and we should put real borders up between Mexico and the US.

Perhaps since manufacturing has gone the way of being outsourced to Southeast Asia many of the unemployed poor in our inner cities who already have some of the lowest quality of life would naturally end up finding work in agricultural positions in other parts of the country... in areas where people are otherwise leaving, where quality of life is higher.

The US is very resilient. I won't believe any argument that removal of this workforce would end any industry that doesn't already deserve an adjustment or natural death. I don't like my tax dollars subsidizing bad business. One way or another I am still paying. If I wasn't paying for all of the social services help and healthcare for illegals perhaps I wouldn't mind paying another 50% for strawberries in the store.

It's just a fucking joke. Maybe we'll end up turning this into a conversation here about farm subsidies, too, that would be interesting to discuss further how the richest country in the world pays farmers to not grow crops and continue inefficient business practices... whereas in any other industry with any other business the owner would just go out of business and someone else would figure out how to make lemonade out of lemons.

There's just too much to discuss on this subject for any of us to get all of our thoughts out. There are tens of millions living below the poverty line and what it all boils down to is that you people who want the illegals are placing a priority on people that aren't even citizens of the United States.

Brad

Well put and good points.
Farm subsidies have gotten out of hand for sure.
They were started during the great depression to keep families from losing their farms. These days the "family farm" has all but disappeared, you have giant agribusinesses running all the farms in this country and the subsidies amount to us cutting 8 figure checks to one company for growing this or that.
I actually agreed with Bush on this topic because he wanted to limit the amount of the subsidy being paid to any one business, so that the subsidy money would actually go to family farmers instead of the giant agribusinesses, but the republicans in congress wouldn't play ball.

On the other hand, food is cheaper and more plentiful now than at any time in the history of the world. I haven't done enough research to know whether this is a result of gov't subsidies or because we're importing alot of food from South and Central America now. It could be a combination of both.

Logan Videos · 03-26-2006, 11:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lenny2

Also, like I stated earlier. Americans are naturally going to shop at the place in town with the lowest prices, they'd be stupid not to.
However if we got rid of illegals, and prices and wages went up as a result, people wouldn't start screaming to bring back the illegals because a loaf of bread costs 10 cents more.

Actually, if the price of US products would go up, and the imported products would stay at the same price, people would just stop buying US products and buy imported products instead.

Also, I read somewhere near the top of this thread that the Japanese didnt have illegal immigrants and they were doiing very well without them.

Once again, check out what are the products that Japan make... they almost only make technology products. They pay their employees over minimal wage, but since their products costs a lot of money all around the globe, it doesnt matter, they will sell their products even if the prices are high.

On the other hand, if the US wants to sell their vegetables to the americans, they need to have similar prices as the third world countries, which will not happen these companies stops to hire illegal immigrants.

Snake Doctor · 03-26-2006, 12:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Logan Videos

Actually, if the price of US products would go up, and the imported products would stay at the same price, people would just stop buying US products and buy imported products instead.

On the other hand, if the US wants to sell their vegetables to the americans, they need to have similar prices as the third world countries, which will not happen these companies stops to hire illegal immigrants.

Oh, well since you put it that way then I guess we should let all these companies break the law. What was I thinking???

</sarcasm>

Logan Videos · 03-26-2006, 12:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lenny2

Oh, well since you put it that way then I guess we should let all these companies break the law. What was I thinking???

</sarcasm>

In other words, you are saying that even if illegal immigrants are good for your country, you would kick them out and make a lot of companies go bankrupt?

Never forget that slaves are the people that made your country that rich, even if slavery was wrong. Hiring illegal immigrants are good for the USA, even if its illegal to hire them.

Would you decrease your lifestyle and kick the illegal immigrants out of your country? I bet a lot of people would say no to that question... and that is exactly why they are here to stay.

Egomancer · 03-26-2006, 01:08 PM

Well, if the illegal immigrants would leave US then you would have to hire local people to do the work. This will mean that you will need to pay higher salaries to them which means that the companies that own those people will raise the prices.
Consequently a lot of services and products will be more expensive. If the services will be more expensive this means that you will either won;t use it (which means that your life will be worse) or you will pay higher prices (so you will need to cut from some other part of your expenses so your life will be worse). IN any case your life won't be better.

This is true for the services/products that need to be done locally. FOr all the other they will be outsourced and the companies will either close the gates or build a facotry somewhere else.

In the end all goes to the competitiveness of the economy. Because US won WW2 and got out of it without major destruction, for the next 50 years after they had the econimic edge. However after USSR disintegrated the former 'conquered' countries got free and started to compete US. And now because of the constant war that costs money and consumes human resources (young people that could work in a factory instead) you loose even more.

The cheap mexicans is just a simptom of an economy that is not healty! The solution must be thought elsewhere, not to just throw them all back!

Egomancer

AmateurFlix · 03-26-2006, 01:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lenny2

We all know about supply and demand.
When demand goes up, supply goes down, and prices increase.
When demand goes down, supply goes up, and prices decrease.

In business, prices are indeed controlled by the supply/demand curve (assuming there's no monopoly)
You have competitors who are trying to take business from you and they price their goods accordingly, but still at a level high enough to make a profit, and the consumer wins.

It's supposed to work the same way in the wage market.
When unemployment gets low, businesses have to fight harder to get workers, and wages go up.
When unemployment is high, there is a glut of workers and wages go down or stagnate.
However, during the current administration businesses have been able to artificially control the supply of workers available by importing illegal immigrants. (Knowing that this administration's INS would look the other way)
By doing this the supply always stays high, so not only do you get cheap labor from illegal immigrants, but you can also depress the entire wage market by keeping the unemployment rate high.
It's the equivalent of the Chinese "dumping" cheap textiles or shrimp or whatever into the American market in violation of WTO rules, something that we as a people would throw a fit about. Only in this case American businesses are dumping cheap labor onto the market.
Now what's even worse is this president is trying to make this practice legal.
If you believe that this is somehow good for the American economy then you've been drinking way too much of the republican kool aid.

Somebody's been paying attention

GatorB · 03-26-2006, 01:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Egomancer

Well, if the illegal immigrants would leave US then you would have to hire local people to do the work. This will mean that you will need to pay higher salaries to them which means that the companies that own those people will raise the prices.
Consequently a lot of services and products will be more expensive.

Egomancer

So? and? Also you are WRONG. If you are right then you make a PERFECT case for bringing back slavery. How come no one is proposing this? hmmmmmmmm. Think about it.

People making MORE money means they have more money to spend. This extra spending offsets higher costs to businesses.

Also if you run a business and you are too inept to run a business where you can pay decent wages charges decent prices and make a profit them maybe you don't need to be in business in the first place. There is no constitutional right to run a business regardless of your competency.

Logan Videos · 03-26-2006, 02:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GatorB

So? and? Also you are WRONG. If you are right then you make a PERFECT case for bringing back slavery. How come no one is proposing this? hmmmmmmmm. Think about it.

People making MORE money means they have more money to spend. This extra spending offsets higher costs to businesses.

Also if you run a business and you are too inept to run a business where you can pay decent wages charges decent prices and make a profit them maybe you don't need to be in business in the first place. There is no constitutional right to run a business regardless of your competency.

Then all the general businesses (farming, textiles etc.) that hires people with no particular expertises will close in the USA and open up in Mexico.

In other words, these companies will hire the same people, but will pay taxes to the Mexican government. These companies will then flood the US market with their products.

The same companies will hire the same people at the same wage they were before. The only difference is that these comapnies will no longer pay taxes to the US gov.

Seems like a good idea pal... NOT!

$5 submissions · 03-26-2006, 02:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by woj

Cincuenta!...........

Hilarious

AmateurFlix · 03-26-2006, 02:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by $5 submissions

What about the article? Do you guys agree that it's possible that the USA, being a high-tech society, would use some of its capital to replace labor through either bioengineered farm products or better machines?

Of course, that's just a natural progress of technology; there will always be activities that machines simply cannot do better or more efficiently than man, however washing dishes / tending fields / etc. are not presently among these tasks in most instances.

The problem for most farmers small businesses etc will not be an increased production cost to move away from manual labor; that will most likely decrease - and considerably in most instances - over any significant period of time. Eventually this will in turn provide a greater benefit to consumers as the cost savings are passed on.

The problems business will most likely face will be ones of capital investments. IE it's probably easier for a farmer to pay a few mexican families in cash on a week by week basis to tend the fields than it would be for them to come up with enough money to pay for a new piece of farm equipment all at once. However if they have to spend 5 years worth of immigrant wages in order to purchase a machine that will greatly reduce labor costs for the next 20 years, this starts to make more economic sense in the long term.

Middle class Americans may not like the idea of picking fruit for minimum wage, however they probably wouldn't have as much of a problem with operating a harvesting machine for more reasonable pay. So instead of employing for instance several dozen illegals at minimum wage or less the farmer ends up paying one american machine operator a decent living wage.

The proliferation of cheap and illegal (but tolerated) labor in this country is just one more symptom of a much larger problem of selling off long term stability and growth in exchange for short term gain.

Logan Videos · 03-26-2006, 02:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AmateurFlix

Of course, that's just a natural progress of technology; there will always be activities that machines simply cannot do better or more efficiently than man, however washing dishes / tending fields / etc. are not presently among these tasks in most instances.

The problem for most farmers small businesses etc will not be an increased production cost to move away from manual labor; that will most likely decrease - and considerably in most instances - over any significant period of time. Eventually this will in turn provide a greater benefit to consumers as the cost savings are passed on.

The problems business will most likely face will be ones of capital investments. IE it's probably easier for a farmer to pay a few mexican families in cash on a week by week basis to tend the fields than it would be for them to come up with enough money to pay for a new piece of farm equipment all at once. However if they have to spend 5 years worth of immigrant wages in order to purchase a machine that will greatly reduce labor costs for the next 20 years, this starts to make more economic sense in the long term.

Middle class Americans may not like the idea of picking fruit for minimum wage, however they probably wouldn't have as much of a problem with operating a harvesting machine for more reasonable pay. So instead of employing for instance several dozen illegals at minimum wage or less the farmer ends up paying one american machine operator a decent living wage.

The proliferation of cheap and illegal (but tolerated) labor in this country is just one more symptom of a much larger problem of selling off long term stability and growth in exchange for short term gain.

I totally agree on what you said. But like you said, most people do not want to invest big for the long-term...

GatorB · 03-26-2006, 02:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Logan Videos

Then all the general businesses (farming, textiles etc.) that hires people with no particular expertises will close in the USA and open up in Mexico.

Already happening. We've have lost many job in my area from job going to Mexico. Which makes me think why in the fuck are they coming HERE when all the jobs are going south anyways?

By the way I highly doubt my local Wal-Mart and McDonald's are moving to Mexico.

Quote:

In other words, these companies will hire the same people, but will pay taxes to the Mexican government. These companies will then flood the US market with their products.

Illegals pay taxes?

As far as farming. The VAST majority of products that come from farms are from CORPORATE farms. This notion that we have all these small farmers we rely on is total BS. Anyways 150 years ago most everyone farmed now it's less than 1% Why? Things changed, most farmers had to give it up to do something else. So what is the difference today? What is all this nostalgia for the small farmer? If he can't make it move on do something else like 99% of other farmers have over the last 150 years.

jjjay · 03-26-2006, 02:29 PM

lefties are always whining on about "what's right". well, the world ain't fair. if you want all your food to cost 50% more in a year, then go ahead and stop all immigration and cheap labor

AmateurFlix · 03-26-2006, 02:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GatorB

Anyways 150 years ago most everyone farmed now it's less than 1% Why? Things changed, most farmers had to give it up to do something else. So what is the difference today? What is all this nostalgia for the small farmer? If he can't make it move on do something else like 99% of other farmers have over the last 150 years.

this is the same notion that makes people cry foul when any other job gets replaced by a machine... for some reason many people think they have a god given right to sit on an assembly line and get paid $20/hour plus benefits all of their lives. They either don't understand or don't care that other working americans are effectively subsidizing their own labor wages through artificially high consumer prices.

Logan Videos · 03-26-2006, 03:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GatorB

Illegals pay taxes?

No, companies that hire them do pay taxes tought, and if they move out, they wont pay any.

GatorB · 03-26-2006, 03:03 PM

So a company can threat to move to Mexico unless it's allowed to hire ilegals at slave wages?

By the way if the company is already breaking the law by hiring illegals I seriously doubt they are paying either all or some of thier taxes.

$5 submissions · 03-26-2006, 03:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AmateurFlix

this is the same notion that makes people cry foul when any other job gets replaced by a machine... for some reason many people think they have a god given right to sit on an assembly line and get paid $20/hour plus benefits all of their lives. They either don't understand or don't care that other working americans are effectively subsidizing their own labor wages through artificially high consumer prices.

You are right on the money. On a separate but related note, what would be the impact of reducing farm subsidies on illegal alien labor?

$5 submissions · 03-26-2006, 04:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GatorB

So a company can threat to move to Mexico unless it's allowed to hire ilegals at slave wages?

Its all about a reluctance to use capital

gideongallery · 03-26-2006, 07:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lenny2

Gee you're right, I don't know anything about macroeconomics

So I guess my statement was totally off base that when you flood the market with supply (illegal immigrant labor) it causes prices to go down or stagnate?

Just because I didn't explain supply and demand in the exact same way the textbook does, doesn't mean I don't understand it and that the principle doesn't apply to my argument about labor.
I was paraphrasing off the top of my head. Get a grip man.

The problem is you didn't fail to explain it as the textbook does you completely missed the boat.

Supply represents the amount of a good or services that people would want to provide at each given price point.

Demand represents the amount of that same good or services that people would want to buy at each give price point.

The market price is determined where those two lines cross.

Unemployment does not occur at the equilibrium point because everyone who wants to work at the wage given match up exactly with the number of jobs that are available.

Minimum wages represent an artificial barrier just like a monopoly (but for demand instead of supply) create an inequity but only for jobs where the equilibrium price is lower than the minimum wage.

People want to cross the border illegally because the difference between the equilibrium price is so far below the minimum wage that people would be willing to take risks to save themselves the money.

The real solution is to eliminate the minimum wage for legal employees, and then create a fine structure force people paying illegal workers make them pay the equivalent to old minimum wage for each illegal worker. Provide a reward (whistle blower pay) for anyone turning in such a shop. This would eliminate the incentive to cross the border and increase the risk of hiring an illegal as well.

But getting rid of the minimum wage would be political suicide so they are talking about allowing guest visa to AVOID technological innovation that would eliminate 100% of the jobs (both legal and illegal).

The technological innovation that would allow a business to continue without the need for illegal workers would also put the legal workers out of work too.

gideongallery · 03-27-2006, 03:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GatorB

So? and? Also you are WRONG. If you are right then you make a PERFECT case for bringing back slavery. How come no one is proposing this? hmmmmmmmm. Think about it.

People making MORE money means they have more money to spend. This extra spending offsets higher costs to businesses.

Also if you run a business and you are too inept to run a business where you can pay decent wages charges decent prices and make a profit them maybe you don't need to be in business in the first place. There is no constitutional right to run a business regardless of your competency.

you missed the point completely the business would not hire people at full wage it would either
1. Move taking all the jobs to mexico
2. implement a technological solution that would eliminate the need for labor force

in both cases the LEGAL jobs disappear too.

Orange Growers in california have to produce oranges at a market rate that is consistant with oranges grown in mexico (where all the labour is cheap) market conditions make it impossible to do all three.

03-26-2006, 11:02 AM	#51
woj <&(©¿©)&> Industry Role: Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Chicago Posts: 47,882	Cincuenta!........... __________________ Custom Software Development, email: woj#at#wojfun#.#com to discuss details or skype: wojl2000 or gchat: wojfun or telegram: wojl2000 Affiliate program tools: Hosted Galleries Manager Banner Manager Video Manager Wordpress Affiliate Plugin Pic/Movie of the Day Fansign Generator Zip Manager

03-26-2006, 01:08 PM	#56
Egomancer Confirmed User Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Bucharest, Romania Posts: 2,074	Well, if the illegal immigrants would leave US then you would have to hire local people to do the work. This will mean that you will need to pay higher salaries to them which means that the companies that own those people will raise the prices. Consequently a lot of services and products will be more expensive. If the services will be more expensive this means that you will either won;t use it (which means that your life will be worse) or you will pay higher prices (so you will need to cut from some other part of your expenses so your life will be worse). IN any case your life won't be better. This is true for the services/products that need to be done locally. FOr all the other they will be outsourced and the companies will either close the gates or build a facotry somewhere else. In the end all goes to the competitiveness of the economy. Because US won WW2 and got out of it without major destruction, for the next 50 years after they had the econimic edge. However after USSR disintegrated the former 'conquered' countries got free and started to compete US. And now because of the constant war that costs money and consumes human resources (young people that could work in a factory instead) you loose even more. The cheap mexicans is just a simptom of an economy that is not healty! The solution must be thought elsewhere, not to just throw them all back! Egomancer __________________ ICQ: 95-239-282 WWW: www.webprogrammers.eu WWW:www.seodev.eu Y!MSN: lord_ender If you want to outsource any work to Romania - here I am !!!! www.anotheranime.com \| www.autotrafic.ro \| www.jocurionline.ro

03-26-2006, 02:29 PM	#64
jjjay Registered User Join Date: Jun 2005 Posts: 1,813	lefties are always whining on about "what's right". well, the world ain't fair. if you want all your food to cost 50% more in a year, then go ahead and stop all immigration and cheap labor

03-26-2006, 03:03 PM	#67
GatorB The Demon & 12clicks Industry Role: Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: SallyRand is a FAGGOT Posts: 18,208	So a company can threat to move to Mexico unless it's allowed to hire ilegals at slave wages? By the way if the company is already breaking the law by hiring illegals I seriously doubt they are paying either all or some of thier taxes.