Some Affiliates are just out of control - GoFuckYourself.com

AdultMegaCash · 01-11-2006, 11:12 PM

Ok check this out, normally not one to share this kind of stuff, but this was just too much for me.

The other day I get an ICQ from someone who signed up for AMC he started asking a lot of questions about everything which is totally normal. We had a pretty nice chat; he said he liked all the promo tools and free content and that he has decided that he is going to start sending traffic. I said great contact me if you need anything else.

I get a message the next day being called a Scammer, I said ?excuse me how exactly am I scamming you?? He goes on to say while going through our affiliate area that he came across an area for ?cross sales? and went on to say that when he generates the code it does not have his affiliate ID in it. I said that it should not have his affiliate ID in it, that it is tracked through the join page on his paysite (side note we have a place in our affiliate area where other paysite owners can copy the Xsale info from). He went on to say that he does not own a paysite and wants to know why his affiliate ID is not there. I tried a few times to explain it to him and then gave up. He said he does not understand what I was saying so the conversation ended.

So the next day once again I get an ICQ being called a Scammer once again, but this time he started with the typical piece of shit, asshole, I?m going to expose you on the board?s bullshit. He also was telling me how a lot of the sites were not ?stable? and that the ?join pages did not work.?

I asked which sites were not stable, and which join page did not work? He said let me check because my friend is the one who told me. So he came back and named the site and said it was not stable and maybe once I get my shit together he?ll consider sending me his traffic, and that he is going to watch me for a bit and if I can straighten myself out he would start sending.

So I asked if he could show me how he was linking off to our AMC sites, and he showed me. Once I got to his page his coding was all fucked up. And it turned out that our pages and everything else worked fine. He did not layout his page correctly so you had to scroll down like 15 times to find the rest of his page. I show and explain this to him, and say if he fixed the tables and frames on his page that it would look fine and work fine. He then said it?s not worth fixing because my sites were not stable and I was a scammer piece of shit. I then told him that he needed to fix his pages and it would work fine, that his stats were tracking fine from his page, but it just looks all out of whack because he did not code them properly.

He went on to tell me there is no way he would send to me because I scammed him, and my sites were not stable, and then he called me every name under the son, and I think he even made up a few as well.

I must ask what makes me a scammer when he had no idea how to layout his page?

I just terminated his account after the conversation, but still I must say that some of you webmasters are way to fucking spoiled and think you can over power people by giving a threat of ?taking it to the boards!?

adultchica · 01-11-2006, 11:16 PM

If the webmaster doesn't know what a cross sell is, he isn't going to make you any money

EdgeXXX · 01-11-2006, 11:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AdultMegaCash

...but still I must say that some of you webmasters are way to fucking spoiled

Oh, that's it, I'm definitely taking this one to the boards!

But seriously, my

: Fuck him

AdultMegaCash · 01-11-2006, 11:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by adultchica

If the webmaster doesn't know what a cross sell is, he isn't going to make you any money

Everybody was a noob at some point in time. Imagine you were the first person the hun contacted when he started out and you just brushed him off say "he's a noob, he does not know what a linklist is, he won't make me any money" that would have been a bad move.

EdgeXXX · 01-11-2006, 11:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AdultMegaCash

Everybody was a noob at some point in time. Imagine you were the first person the hun contacted when he started out and you just brushed him off say "he's a noob, he does not know what a linklist is, he won't make me any money" that would have been a bad move.

Yeah, but a true n00b that is eager to get started and has what it takes to be successful doesn't act like an ass when it comes to business (esp early on)

TheSenator · 01-11-2006, 11:25 PM

You got some old school designs
http://seniorsexxx.com/index2.html
http://asslick.com/index2.html

You guys are keeping it real.

Sly · 01-11-2006, 11:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by adultchica

If the webmaster doesn't know what a cross sell is, he isn't going to make you any money

That isn't true at all. I know tons of people that have no idea what a link list is. Hell, when I first started it took about a year before I fully understood exactly what a TGP was. I'm no baller but I've made a few people a penny or two.

The guy was just an idiot. Plain and simple.

AdultMegaCash · 01-11-2006, 11:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheSenator

You got some old school designs
http://seniorsexxx.com/index2.html
http://asslick.com/index2.html

You guys are keeping it real.

We have new style tours coming for those with exclusive content, but we will be keeping those in place, they kill on SEO. For some reason SEO sometimes favors and does well on the old style tours.

adultchica · 01-11-2006, 11:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AdultMegaCash

Everybody was a noob at some point in time. Imagine you were the first person the hun contacted when he started out and you just brushed him off say "he's a noob, he does not know what a linklist is, he won't make me any money" that would have been a bad move.

OK you may have me a little on that one, but if he couldn't understand your explanations for it.......I still say something is wrong.

AdultMegaCash · 01-11-2006, 11:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sly

That isn't true at all. I know tons of people that have no idea what a link list is. Hell, when I first started it took about a year before I fully understood exactly what a TGP was. I'm no baller but I've made a few people a penny or two.

The guy was just an idiot. Plain and simple.

Yeah he was an idiot, I did not put much into him not knowing about the cross sales, but when he started with all the scammer shit it got out of control.

I fully agree with you, it's going to be rare to find an affiliate who knows and understands all aspects of all traffic.

jt420 · 01-12-2006, 12:28 AM

A noob can always blossom into a whale one day but someone who is going to be a complete prick like that from the get go shouldnt even be dealt with. Yes sometimes it is a challange to hold someones hand who is brand new to the game but an attitude like that does not deserve your time. Term him and let him pass on a chance to make some great sales.

AdultMegaCash · 01-12-2006, 04:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by EdgeXXX

Yeah, but a true n00b that is eager to get started and has what it takes to be successful doesn't act like an ass when it comes to business (esp early on)

I fully agree, I am very laid back when it comes to dealing with people, and will put up with a lot, but sooner or later you need to just say nevermind and walk away.

Webby · 01-12-2006, 04:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AdultMegaCash

I fully agree, I am very laid back when it comes to dealing with people, and will put up with a lot, but sooner or later you need to just say nevermind and walk away.

Ya can't tell me any bullshit about html - I got my code right and you know your sites are unstable and I sent four hits just to test conversions and you must have lost them - scammer!

God help us...

V_RocKs · 01-12-2006, 05:42 AM

I say you post his city... if you get 8 webmasters in the same city, you release his personal info and we take care of it Jay and Silent Bob style... But that is just me...

Murderous · 01-12-2006, 06:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sly

The guy was just an idiot. Plain and simple.

Yep, has nothing to do with the webmasters being "too fucking spoiled" either.

Sometimes it is hard to school someone when they don't want to listen, perhaps directing him to a 3rd party article explaining what a xsell is.

uhumm... before terming accounts and posting on boards.

oh yeah, and calling people spoiled.

AdultMegaCash · 01-12-2006, 06:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Murderous

Yep, has nothing to do with the webmasters being "too fucking spoiled" either.

Sometimes it is hard to school someone when they don't want to listen, perhaps directing him to a 3rd party article explaining what a xsell is.

uhumm... before terming accounts and posting on boards.

oh yeah, and calling people spoiled.

I'd like to reply to you, but I am not 100% sure what you are saying.

Wiggles · 01-12-2006, 07:28 AM

for someone that has sent no traffic he sure gets worked up.

AdultMegaCash · 01-12-2006, 07:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wiggles

for someone that has sent no traffic he sure gets worked up.

Exactly the point, how was I scamming him if he's yet to send any traffic? I was working with him to fix his pages. I even sent him the proper code to make it work, and he just kept saying fuck that, your site is not stable.

Murderous · 01-12-2006, 07:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AdultMegaCash

I'd like to reply to you, but I am not 100% sure what you are saying.

What I am saying is that as a program owner you are almost required to have to put up with these types of affiliates. Not bash them or term their account because they piss you off, simply because THEY don't understand the whole deal. especially cross sells in your affiliate area. As not too many sponsors have this information available to the public affiliate area.

Now, when you come here to bitch, that is fine. Saying that affiliates are spoiled, is just you venting, but at the same time you are putting us all down.

also...

directing him to an article or tutorial written and hosted on a 3rd party site will show the guy not only what a gaddamned cross sell is, but he will see that you are not trying to fuck him when he sees you are in compliance with the way cross sells work.

I have been bashed and flamed on GFY several times for bringing things to the boards, and in some cases it maybe could have been handled in a better manner. No matter how upset or right I thought I was. That doesn't even matter, I am an affiliate. I only understand what I learn from experience... and without conversations like you just had with this guy, I may never had learned what I know today. So should you have termed his account? Should you have vented here? should you have called out all the affiliates on this board accusing us of being spoiled? without us, where would YOU be?

or...

Should you just had said "Excuse me sir, but would you like me to direct you to some information explaining what cross sells are and how they work?"

and perhaps ask him what OS and Browser he is using to view your join pages, their very well could be some errors with other configurations and that may be costing YOU money... thank HIM later.

Now you may reply...

Brad Gosse · 01-12-2006, 08:31 AM

The smallest affiliates cry the loudest. You never hear from the big ones because they already know what to do.

It's always the wannabe webmaster using front page for the first time because he heard he could get rich overnight in online adult.

Murderous · 01-12-2006, 08:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brad Gosse

The smallest affiliates cry the loudest. You never hear from the big ones because they already know what to do.

It's always the wannabe webmaster using front page for the first time because he heard he could get rich overnight in online adult.

What's wrong with that? We all had a day 1. We all learned from experience.

and we ALL spew more shit than *******.

AdultMegaCash · 01-12-2006, 09:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Murderous

What I am saying is that as a program owner you are almost required to have to put up with these types of affiliates. Not bash them or term their account because they piss you off, simply because THEY don't understand the whole deal. especially cross sells in your affiliate area. As not too many sponsors have this information available to the public affiliate area.

Now, when you come here to bitch, that is fine. Saying that affiliates are spoiled, is just you venting, but at the same time you are putting us all down.

directing him to an article or tutorial written and hosted on a 3rd party site will show the guy not only what a gaddamned cross sell is, but he will see that you are not trying to fuck him when he sees you are in compliance with the way cross sells work.

I agree with you that we do have to put up with a lot and deal with affiliates who are new and do not understand things, and also deal with ones who are not all too polite. But, if they instead of listening and learning while I describe things to them they just want to call me a fucking scammer piece of shit, asshole, stealing liar mother fucker. Then I am not. He has not sent one hit of traffic, so how did I scam him?

I spent two hours explaining xsales to him, I sent him to epoch, and showed him numerous join pages and what was going on. He then said ?fuck you scammer, try to steal from me fuck you, I will expose you on the boards!?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Murderous

I have been bashed and flamed on GFY several times for bringing things to the boards, and in some cases it maybe could have been handled in a better manner. No matter how upset or right I thought I was. That doesn't even matter, I am an affiliate. I only understand what I learn from experience... and without conversations like you just had with this guy, I may never had learned what I know today. So should you have termed his account? Should you have vented here? should you have called out all the affiliates on this board accusing us of being spoiled? without us, where would YOU be?

or...

Should you just had said "Excuse me sir, but would you like me to direct you to some information explaining what cross sells are and how they work?"

and perhaps ask him what OS and Browser he is using to view your join pages, their very well could be some errors with other configurations and that may be costing YOU money... thank HIM later.

Now you may reply

I agree that affiliates will learn from experience, and when I am spending hours with you explaining things, offering advice, where to get traffic, the best ways to maximize it, and you just call me a fucking scammer piece of shit, fuck you, I will ruin your life. ETC ETC. I am not going to say, ?excuse me sir, how can I help you further?

I spent hours being polite with him and this is how he treated me.

Now to answer your questions:

You asked:

?Should you have terminated his account!?

My Reply:

Yes, totally. If you?ve never sent me traffic, and you want to bash my company, call me names, accuse me of being a scammer and a shaver, not knowing what I am doing, saying you are going to go to the boards and ruin my program then you are not going to be welcome to send me traffic. I don?t think that is off base what so ever.

You asked:

?Should I have vented here??

My Reply:

Why not, I am not venting, I am just saying that some people have a lot of nerve, they think they can boss and order people around and give threats of ?I?ll take my traffic elsewhere!? So fine take it elsewhere, I am not going to suck you off and be treated like shit for it.

You asked:

?Should I have called out all the affiliates on this board and accused them of being spoiled??

My Reply:

I did not say every person on this board was spoiled, but in fact many affiliates are. I buy your domains, I pay for your hosting, I design your galleries, I do 90% of the work for you, yet some still bitch and complain, the design is not good enough, can you photoshop the content for me and make it nicer?

I remember when affiliates use to purchase their own content, design their own galleries and actually work for their 70%. A lot of affiliates out there are very professional, but then others show up think if they submit 2 galleries they?ll become rich. There is a harsh reality that adult is not as easy to profit from. If you want to make money then work for it. Time and effort pay off.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Murderous

and perhaps ask him what OS and Browser he is using to view your join pages, their very well could be some errors with other configurations and that may be costing YOU money... thank HIM later.

Now you may reply

When he came to me claiming I was stealing from him and my site was fucked up and my join pages did not work or load I simply asked him to ?show me where so I can fix it ASAP!?

He said to me I don?t know my friend told me. So I asked him to ask his friend. He said fuck you scammer. So after going back and forth he finally showed me the page. He coded it all wrong so that nothing was working; his tables were broken so it caused the links to be all screwed up. I pointed it out to him and he said it was my fault because I was a scammer. So I copied his page, put it onto my server with everything fixed and showed him and said there you go, here is a zip of it working correctly, I fixed it up for you. He said, fuck that you are a scammer I don?t want that shit from you, it does not load, your program sucks and I am going to make everyone know it.

So, after that I terminated his account. I think I was within my right to do so.

If you would have done it differently I would love to know how.

AdultMegaCash · 01-12-2006, 09:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brad Gosse

The smallest affiliates cry the loudest. You never hear from the big ones because they already know what to do.

It's always the wannabe webmaster using front page for the first time because he heard he could get rich overnight in online adult.

I agree with you. But, we all were a noob at one time, so I do work with them the best I can. You never know who is the next hun, or brad gosse, or shap.

AdultMegaCash · 01-12-2006, 09:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Murderous

What's wrong with that? We all had a day 1. We all learned from experience.

and we ALL spew more shit than *******.

There is nothing wrong with it when the noob is trying to learn and working with you.

What Brad is saying is a lot of the noob's demand you do it all and if not they make threats. You will succeed if you are professional, and not a know it all.

There is a BIG difference.

sumphatpimp · 01-12-2006, 09:17 AM

cut him loose immediatley.
he will cost you money but never make you money.
in the end he will drag down your program and make you look bad, then it will take your time to repair that damage.
eighter he is a noob who is a head case or competing program trying to fuck with you.
no matter.
cut his ass loose.

sfera · 01-12-2006, 09:19 AM

nice, i would have just ignored him, not worth your time

Murderous · 01-12-2006, 09:36 AM

Well now that you gave even more detail to the extent that you went with this guy, I do not blame you. But what initially made me speak out was that you simply said affiliates are spoiled, and yes some are (the big ones too) and the litle ones may need the boost to become big, so that just erks me when any sponsor dogs on us, we made you. With your help of course.

AlienQ - BANNED FOR LIFE · 01-12-2006, 09:47 AM

Affiliates are whinny spoiled bitches.

Then they come to you're webmaster parties drink all you're booze and do not even pick up after themselves.

Furious_Male · 01-12-2006, 10:00 AM

Why was my AMC account cancelled?

Brad Gosse · 01-12-2006, 10:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AdultMegaCash

I agree with you. But, we all were a noob at one time, so I do work with them the best I can. You never know who is the next hun, or brad gosse, or shap.

True words my friend

It's just so tough to deal with angry noobs that are just plain wrong.

You fucking SCAMMER lol ;)

Jon Clark - BANNED FOR LIFE · 01-15-2006, 10:54 AM

I don't know about being a scammer, but AMC is a lowballer

Furious_Female · 01-15-2006, 11:04 AM

You should have bought him a laptop and submitted some galleries for him to make him feel better!!!!!!!!! Shame on you!!!!!!!

Rui · 01-15-2006, 06:28 PM

i so fucking fell what you are saying man...hard times lol

E Guru · 01-15-2006, 06:30 PM

Fuck affiliates
Its all about inhouse marketing

Nom_is · 01-15-2006, 06:32 PM

This is why you should introduce a manditory IQ test for all your new affiliates, it just weeds out the people that are fucking stupid.

Nom_is · 01-15-2006, 06:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AlienQ

Affiliates are whinny spoiled bitches.

Then they come to you're webmaster parties drink all you're booze and do not even pick up after themselves.

It must be hell having to pick up all those dead hookers after they leave.

01-11-2006, 11:12 PM	#1
AdultMegaCash Confirmed User Join Date: Aug 2004 Posts: 1,017	Some Affiliates are just out of control Ok check this out, normally not one to share this kind of stuff, but this was just too much for me. The other day I get an ICQ from someone who signed up for AMC he started asking a lot of questions about everything which is totally normal. We had a pretty nice chat; he said he liked all the promo tools and free content and that he has decided that he is going to start sending traffic. I said great contact me if you need anything else. I get a message the next day being called a Scammer, I said ?excuse me how exactly am I scamming you?? He goes on to say while going through our affiliate area that he came across an area for ?cross sales? and went on to say that when he generates the code it does not have his affiliate ID in it. I said that it should not have his affiliate ID in it, that it is tracked through the join page on his paysite (side note we have a place in our affiliate area where other paysite owners can copy the Xsale info from). He went on to say that he does not own a paysite and wants to know why his affiliate ID is not there. I tried a few times to explain it to him and then gave up. He said he does not understand what I was saying so the conversation ended. So the next day once again I get an ICQ being called a Scammer once again, but this time he started with the typical piece of shit, asshole, I?m going to expose you on the board?s bullshit. He also was telling me how a lot of the sites were not ?stable? and that the ?join pages did not work.? I asked which sites were not stable, and which join page did not work? He said let me check because my friend is the one who told me. So he came back and named the site and said it was not stable and maybe once I get my shit together he?ll consider sending me his traffic, and that he is going to watch me for a bit and if I can straighten myself out he would start sending. So I asked if he could show me how he was linking off to our AMC sites, and he showed me. Once I got to his page his coding was all fucked up. And it turned out that our pages and everything else worked fine. He did not layout his page correctly so you had to scroll down like 15 times to find the rest of his page. I show and explain this to him, and say if he fixed the tables and frames on his page that it would look fine and work fine. He then said it?s not worth fixing because my sites were not stable and I was a scammer piece of shit. I then told him that he needed to fix his pages and it would work fine, that his stats were tracking fine from his page, but it just looks all out of whack because he did not code them properly. He went on to tell me there is no way he would send to me because I scammed him, and my sites were not stable, and then he called me every name under the son, and I think he even made up a few as well. I must ask what makes me a scammer when he had no idea how to layout his page? I just terminated his account after the conversation, but still I must say that some of you webmasters are way to fucking spoiled and think you can over power people by giving a threat of ?taking it to the boards!? __________________ Do not use Jay AKA Bannerdept.com Click HERE for reasons why!

01-11-2006, 11:16 PM	#2
adultchica Confirmed User Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: usa Posts: 5,141	If the webmaster doesn't know what a cross sell is, he isn't going to make you any money __________________

01-11-2006, 11:25 PM	#6
TheSenator Too lazy to set a custom title Industry Role: Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: NJ Posts: 13,336	You got some old school designs http://seniorsexxx.com/index2.html http://asslick.com/index2.html You guys are keeping it real. __________________ ISeekGirls.com since 2005

01-12-2006, 12:28 AM	#11
jt420 Confirmed User Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: in the foothills of the mind. ICQ: 279561428 Posts: 2,479	A noob can always blossom into a whale one day but someone who is going to be a complete prick like that from the get go shouldnt even be dealt with. Yes sometimes it is a challange to hold someones hand who is brand new to the game but an attitude like that does not deserve your time. Term him and let him pass on a chance to make some great sales. __________________ I made my fortune selling pubic wigs! New program Merkin Money coming soon!

01-12-2006, 07:28 AM	#17
Wiggles Too lazy to set a custom title Join Date: May 2004 Posts: 14,423	for someone that has sent no traffic he sure gets worked up. __________________ no sig

01-12-2006, 05:42 AM	#14
V_RocKs Damn Right I Kiss Ass! Industry Role: Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Cowtown, USA Posts: 32,409	I say you post his city... if you get 8 webmasters in the same city, you release his personal info and we take care of it Jay and Silent Bob style... But that is just me...

01-12-2006, 08:31 AM	#20
Brad Gosse Confirmed User Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Carpal Tunnel Posts: 2,616	The smallest affiliates cry the loudest. You never hear from the big ones because they already know what to do. It's always the wannabe webmaster using front page for the first time because he heard he could get rich overnight in online adult. __________________ Free Clipart

01-12-2006, 09:17 AM	#25
sumphatpimp Confirmed User Join Date: Aug 2002 Posts: 5,235	cut him loose immediatley. he will cost you money but never make you money. in the end he will drag down your program and make you look bad, then it will take your time to repair that damage. eighter he is a noob who is a head case or competing program trying to fuck with you. no matter. cut his ass loose.

01-12-2006, 09:19 AM	#26
sfera Confirmed User Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: ICQ: 248877409 Posts: 8,597	nice, i would have just ignored him, not worth your time

01-12-2006, 09:36 AM	#27
Murderous Confirmed User Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: Pennsylvania Posts: 3,938	Well now that you gave even more detail to the extent that you went with this guy, I do not blame you. But what initially made me speak out was that you simply said affiliates are spoiled, and yes some are (the big ones too) and the litle ones may need the boost to become big, so that just erks me when any sponsor dogs on us, we made you. With your help of course.

01-12-2006, 09:47 AM	#28
AlienQ - BANNED FOR LIFE best designer on GFY Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: IALIEN.COM - High Definition Video and Photographic Productions -ICQ 78943384 Posts: 30,307	Affiliates are whinny spoiled bitches. Then they come to you're webmaster parties drink all you're booze and do not even pick up after themselves. __________________ NAKED HOSTING FTW!11 I'm On The INSANE PLAN $9.95/mo! \| The Alien Blog Adult News Worth Reading Updated Daily \| Content For Sale! 641 PICS 216 MINUTES OF VIDEO $350.00 \|ICQ: 78943384 \|

01-12-2006, 10:00 AM	#29
Furious_Male Doing the grind since 99 Industry Role: Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: Buffalo NY Posts: 16,881	Why was my AMC account cancelled? __________________ Living in Virtual Reality Contact: Email (preferred): furiousmale .at. gmail - Skype: live:shanedws

01-15-2006, 10:54 AM	#31
Jon Clark - BANNED FOR LIFE North Coast Pimp Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: 304-534-757 Posts: 9,395	I don't know about being a scammer, but AMC is a lowballer

01-15-2006, 11:04 AM	#32
Furious_Female Confirmed User Industry Role: Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Upstate, New York Posts: 8,187	You should have bought him a laptop and submitted some galleries for him to make him feel better!!!!!!!!! Shame on you!!!!!!! __________________ Skype: j3nn.com ICQ 160370494 My current favorite high-converting sponsor: CrakRevenue Last edited by Furious_Female; 01-15-2006 at 11:05 AM..

01-15-2006, 06:28 PM	#33
Rui web Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: On icq: 85-483-060 Posts: 9,533	i so fucking fell what you are saying man...hard times lol

01-15-2006, 06:30 PM	#34
E Guru Confirmed User Join Date: Jul 2005 Posts: 658	Fuck affiliates Its all about inhouse marketing __________________ Guru

01-15-2006, 06:32 PM	#35
Nom_is Confirmed User Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 197	This is why you should introduce a manditory IQ test for all your new affiliates, it just weeds out the people that are fucking stupid. __________________ ICQ# 314-721-978