gentmaster

yet when you propose a new idea, they seem overly one dimensional in their thinking, opting to stay risk averse to any oportunity that is not customary.

Short term thinking isn't very profitable.

gentmaster

Any stories from affiliates here who have found their sponsors where too stubborn to adopt non-traditional promotion opportunities? Or do all sponsors operate on a two step ladder mentality - I sponsor. You affiliate. No in-betweens.

Raven

I think you're statement is vague....can you give an example of what you mean by non traditional methods of promotion?

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BigCashCrew

a lot of times sponsors are super busy and their programming is tied up. also a lot of people will drive a sponsor crazy until they do something, then when it gets done it's a total failure, or that person decides not to put the idea to use. for every 1 good idea there are 10 potential bad ones (or ones the affiliate decides not to use). my 2 cents.

Tom_PM

Suggestions are always welcome. Whether it's do-able or deemed worth the risk (whatever it may be) is another thing though obviously.
At PimpRoll, we recently opened up for suggestions for some rework, and some are being implemented.

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gentmaster

Let's say you're an affiliate and operate from a business-to-business angle and wish to integrate an idea mainstreem along with the sponsors own programs. Given that it is mainstream and non-adult (non-traditional), sponsors seem agile and quick to discount its possibilites.

However, this seems prevelant in the Adult web industry only. For all the flash and glitz sponsor banners shout, underneith it all they operate pretty linearly without much offshoots or consideration for customer development options that exist beyond the standard sponsor-affiliate relationship.

Sponsors are risk-averse to creating alliances. Hence the one-dimenional thinking I originally stated.

gentmaster

Exactly. My impression is sponsors are so busy micro managing so many loose ends at the affiliate level that they ignore proposed non-traditional possibilities simply because, it's just never been tested in Adult before. I attribute this more to the straightforward 1-dimensional thinking of Adult webmastering as a whole.

BigCashCrew

I guess the bottom line will always be the question Is this affiliate seriously going to use this idea? Is this affiliate going to make everyone money if we do this? I've done a lot of out of the box things for people and it never took off. It all depends really.

gentmaster

Agreed. As well as the sponsors degree of business professionalism & foresight to be able to share a profit making vision.

Most won't get passed - "wut kind of traffic?"

Not many MBA grads behind those glitzy banners obviously.

gentmaster

bump for the movers and shakers

Hardlinks

It pisses me off really. I dont expect my hand to be held but i DO EXPECT to be heard (as an active and profitable affiliate) i think its my right.

An exact case in point is one program i promote (and have so for quite awhile) and have been consistently sending sales. I enquired about a few things that i know would step up my sales from 30-40 a week, to 60-70 a week. Because they "dont do that stuff" i was told it was unlikely it would happen (despite it only taking a maximum of 8-10 man hours to finish my request).

So instead i put out my feelers and ended up sending that traffic to a diferant sponsor. Now from the time that sponsor that couldnt help me to the time the new sponsor who did, i generated the traffic flow, and sent them over 130 sales (few weeks).

I can still do this to the other sponsors, but im so fuckin sick of all their bullshit.

"we'll let you know"
"we're working on it for you now"
"im not sure thats doable"
"as soon as these new sites are wrapped up"

etc etc

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gentmaster

And then you have those sponsors (big names) who's henchmen can't even particpate in some business development dialogue and wind up shunning your conversations aside because they are too damn stupid to even understand. And from there, getting someone from upper management in the spirit of presenting a new proposal comes to no avail.

"We work to give you the best tools to make you RICH!" is a load of bullshit, because none of it accounts for affiliates with programs that may need custom integration.

Tempest

Frankly it doesn't even go that far... All the programs say things like "we'll do anything to help you promote us.. signup now..." You talk to them on ICQ and it's the same thing.. "I'm here to help you make more money".... So... Recently I've asked a couple of the big programs to make up some banners and FPAs for sites that either don't have them at all or aren't in the sizes I need... Frankly.. It's usually the ones that don't even have something "standard"... And what happens?? Nothing.. It's more often than naught just lip service..

gentmaster

I can see them looking at you as some sore thumb and will just surmise, "well if we fix his problem he sends us 20 signups a day. If we invest that time into acquiring new affiliates (just thread more banners), they'll send us 60 signups a day."

It's like asking dumber affiliates to subsidize the few more profitable working ones. It still works for sponsors without displacing the sponsors comfort zone in dealing with custom requests.

Matt_WildCash

I think guys the problem is A LOT of sponsors have a certain number of techs and those techs are working solely on adding CCbill, Web900, Passwordbyphone other forms of payment, managing 20+ member, free hosting servers, database servers, keeping things running smoothly.

Those techs are so busy with this stuff that when you come along with an idea that (maybe) a good one they have to decide if its good enough to put some of the other more important stuff asside. Techs are extremely expensive to hire inhouse and programs are not making the money they were back in 98-99. Hard times and most programs hire only the techs they really need so when you come up with an idea chances are the techs are pretty busy working on other more important stuff and so your idea has to be a very very good one that can also be used by other affilates as well. Thats honestly where I see this problem, most programs love to give everything they can to affilates but its a juggling act for sponsors on which things to do first.

gentmaster

Hard times? Much of what you say flies in the face of what can be seen through many sponsor promotions. Not sure about you, yet, how many nano's and XBOX 360's are they giving away again? I'm sure that can fund many intra-startups. But that's just petty nitpicking.

Look, if someone approaches you as a partner and if the opportunity seems feasable, at least have your gate keepers online usher them upwards through the proper channels in order to have their business proposals heard and negotiated through to a definitive conclusion. I can't tell you how inept sponsors look when your ICQ dorks are playing armchair executive manager and treating some of us as if we where the dimbulb affiliates you see streaming through GFY by the hundreds.

Some of us are interested in building partnerships and alliances. Be receptive to those opportunities.

gentmaster

bump

John Marco

the problem we face is what bigcashcrew indicated -- simply not enough time. There are so many things that always need done and I am sure sponsors aren't so apathetic towards affiliates that really they don't want to help. I would surmise that most just really don't have enough time, and just put things in a queue.

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Raven

I can't speak for other sponsors; but, I can speak for us.

We are always interested in new ideas. First, we would want to hear the idea and weigh the risk versus the benefit in terms of long term profitability. If something will cost more than it will produce, it is certainly not something we will consider.

We also look at the big picture in terms of time spent on development of said idea and the projection of potential profit. If it costs us 20k and the projections predict only a few thousand, then no. We will most likely not pursue the idea.

Forward thinking companies have what I like to call 'honey do lists'. Not very technical, but it's pretty self explanatory. Our plans call for constant evaluation and prioritising. We look at potential and we look at reality.

If an idea is not pursued that moment, it doesn't mean it will never be pursued. Again, I would have to hear the idea in more specific terms than what you've laid out. I would like to think we are pretty forward thinking when it comes to the future revenues of our company; but, risk is always weighed against the potential benefits. The greater the risk, benefits had best be pretty damned sweet.

If the idea is innovative, it certainly deserves the time to listen. It doesn't always call for action.

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gentmaster

Bravo. And what you are saying is something I like to see and hear. My issue is with those sponsors who operate their businesses quite succesfully in some angles, and (IMO) through sheer pinacles of ignorance in many others.

Someone may have a blockbuster idea that's been proven effective in a mainstream setting, however when translating that idea to someone in Adult, one tends to see this industrys character - very linear and immature. It's like trying to provision a new opportunity through a snobbish 14 year old trust fund heir. Their ignorance of the proposed "technology" just makes conversation difficult, their reluctance to pursue it further with no counteroffer for additional consulting, and a lucrative opportunity unneedingly lost.

What I also wonder about is why is there so much fierce competion between spnsors and no cross-sell collaborations instead between them? How about adding a few more steps to that two-step sponsor-affiliate ladder? Or am I wrong? AOL trades links with Google, Amazon retails with Target, why is this industry so damn narrow and immature?

(I already know the answer)

LittleMack

I am with you Raven, if one of our affiliates presents to us a new way to generate sales for themselves, I am all about being creative. It depends on what it is or how much the cost is, if applicable, but I will look at all ideas and see if it will work.

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Matt_WildCash

Agreed program owners should always have affilate managers make sure the requests and ideas get to the people incharge to decide.

But like Raven said above, it comes down to cost vs reward, and program owners have to work out the best medium between the two. I personally am always open to affilates ideas and we bend over backwards to implement most things for affilates but not every request is feasible but I do believe its important to keep open lines of communication and always evaluate each request. We are always on the lookout for new ideas & always have an open mind to things.

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Rui

Nice thread...bump

Matt - you have a typo in your sig ;)

Matt_WildCash

Fixed now. I might do 60 words a minute but my error rate could be better

Thanks for the heads up mate

Matt

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Raven

Interesting. I'd like to hear your answer....

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gentmaster

Answer: Sponsor 'executives' seated by wealth, yet have superficial knowlege of IT infrastructure design, partner planned interventions, product delivery and customer channel management.

There is a reason why the sponsor-affiliate model is the organizational boundry for Adult sponsors and nothing more. Haven't seen any innovative breakthru's. Day to day it's the same tired old nonesense, sponsors above with hords of affiliates competing for their commisions at the bottom.

gentmaster

You know the deal in GFY. Business management threads will drop like Humpty Dumpty off the brick wall.

gentmaster

:cricket sounds here:

What nobody else wishes to chime in? :D Just kidding.

ap·a·thy Pronunciation Key (p-th)
n.

1. Lack of interest or concern, especially regarding matters of general importance or appeal; indifference.

At least here we can point out exactly why in this business, this culture of silence fuels this feeling of the above term. No wonder nobody really takes anyone seriously and so much creative shit falls through.

But this was one visitors Back to lurking.

TheSenator

How about this.... I like the idea of sponsor giving away IPODs, XBOXs, and free cool t-shirts(discreet). Why not show some love and just keep giving stuff away? It keeps me happy wink wink

__________________
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gentmaster

* Woops. I meant to say "operational boundry". But c'est la vie, etc.

RogerV

Without getting into how many innovative ideas I have implemented in the past or have done on request from webmasters and trust me the list is very long. It never paid off...

When you get to creative it takes a while for your affiliates to deal with the learning curve and most of the time they wont spend the time to learn or understand it.

This industry has built the foundations for mainstream to say we are not creative is ludicrous. You should do more research... Mainstream is still behind and only profits on paper using others money. Having an MBA is great when you want to work for someone. Being Self employed takes a lot more than some time in the books.
It takes a lot of risk that most are not willing to do.

I wouldn?t be surprised if there were many more new innovative ideas being done on adult side then mainstream. They didn?t get it when the bubble burst and they still don?t get it that?s why only a hand full are left.

Don?t try to fix what aint broke.

If you are so serious hit me up put some balls on the line sign a contract so a sponsor?s time isn?t wasted because Ideas a re a dime a dozen. We put our balls on the line all the time. If you don?t run a program you have no idea the amount of work and risk that is required.

RogerV

Everyday I put my money where my mouth is and no one takes me up on my offers. Try me out I will tell you if its a good idea or not I've been around and to be honest I'm sure its been done already

bdld

ive come to the conclusion that most of the sponsors i deal with (especially they're reps) are nothing but idiots. i cant believe how often i've heard "soon, we're working on it", i keep asking and get the same answer, until i'm eventually ignored. this is certainly no real business, just a bunch of dumb, dirty, fat idiots in front of a computer.

Doctor Dre

In this industry, short term CAN be profitable.

Some guys that think long term will obviously make a lot of money on the long run... but there are a lot of guys that made their $ really quickly over a couple good ideas (or scams **hint***hint**)

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RogerV

Dont be an Idiot yourself and deal with those sponsors then.

Its a business relationship if only one side cares it wont work.
thats why i dont get half the companies people push that dont even have a number you can call them on

I do agree there are alot of idiots in the biz but there are also just as many innovative idiots

RogerV

Most of the companies I know well and are very successful have been around for a long time and I dont think any of them think short term. your confusing those that have failed to think they made money and moved on when most just closed shop for many reasons

every year I see tons of new programs and every year I know 95% of them failed

gentmaster

With so many sponsors and affiliates, porn has become very homogenized and everyone is selling the same stuff. For example: Two sponsors who push similar content in similar circumstances over a long period of time will have roughly the same number of signups. (The longer you flip the coin, the more likely the number of heads and tails will equalise.) When you add 40 to 60 additional sponsors the profits become less and less and less. Since there are only three common denominators in adult webmastering - sponsor websites, www traffic and affiliates; all encapsulated in this big ball we call porn, the air inside starts to get stagnant (sorry about the metaphores).

I find your statement about "I'm sure its been done already" is pretty over confident. Because if you did see everything, there really wouldn't be a need to keep ~94% of your affiliates in the first place. Because if everything has been done, they simply wouldn't matter.

RogerV

I highly dissagree Just because 2 sponsors have the same girls/content does not mean they will both be successful or have the same number of signups..You forget all the variables involved in running a program and successful business. you make it sound easy dont be fooled by the smoke screens in the industry.

I've been in the biz on both sides for 9 years now I've seen alot. Not much new and innovative things left that would be successful if it was you would do it

gentmaster

I did want to mention the 40 - 60 sponsors that will further equalise these law of averages. If you have a china town, and there are 40 chinese resturants on one block, you end up in a stalemate. Something new has to emerge.

RogerV

Just curious how long have you been in business for yourself and where do you get your numbers and guesstimates from. personally i think your comments lack experience in the industry which is comman since most think its so easy to make money in this biz.

If any program kept 94% of there affiliates there would only be one or 2 programs. because of the number of programs out there it keeps the successful companies on there toes. Smart webmasters will move there traffic around alot till they find what works for them and that can change daily or weekly in this biz.. Mainstream never changes and moves very slow sometimes they adopt some of our ideas after all the red tape

RogerV

In this industry Trust and experience is also a major factor to becoming succefull just like any other biz its who you know and what you know. Just because you opened a store doesnt mean you will be successful. yes for 4o may open but 40 may also go bankrupt to think all will be successful is crazy only 10% of companies that are started in america every year are around in a year only 1% are successful

RogerV

just like 2 people can have the same idea and only one will act on it and maybe become successful or even follow thru with it. there are so many variables in running a Company/program and I would wager only a handful of people in the biz really understand it all from A-Z and most of the programs that are running today are backed by the innovators and have front men. if you are amazed at how some of the programs took off fast there is a reason for it. most likey an eperienced vet in the biz is backing it with there knowledge.

I do agree there are some sponsors out there that have no clue but its not hard to find one that does and will work with you. But I'm sure you would have to show some loyalty before expecting them to do anything.

gentmaster

I'll put out a thought, and if you think about it, you may see what I see. There's seems to be this great inference that Adult is some behemoth monster trampling along with a large www globe under it's arms. It is not. It's not some independant force indifferent to say online electronics or jeans from levi's. It's just another consumable item, if not physically, but virtually. Consumables are purchased and when the service or product is rendered the cycle is completed. Think of this cycle as link in a chain. In mainstream I consistently see three links. In Adult, I only see two.

RogerV

Mainstream and adult are nothing alike. we provide a service which is an impluse buy that is repeated over and over again. that is why we trade traffic with each other and mainstream is afraid to send business to a competitor because they are short sited. Consumers like to shop and move around looking for better deals they are not loyal to anyone.

ANd adult is the mainstream online most people just surf for Porn check there email and maybe use a search engine for information.

gentmaster

Re: your comments about Trust.

This is the sort of narrow minded thinking that goes on in Mafia's and keeps the industry narrowly focused (explained further below).

Well I use 40 as a conservative estimate of Adult sponsor playership. Like I would use ~5 for the number of search engines who matter in an example.

So we have ~40. 40 ultra shiny china shops on the only block in town serving the same food will still share the same predicament of having a shared purchasing base. You can't differentiate your shop very much when everyone A.) is using the same business model. B. is sharing the same traffic. So the law of averages works here as well for success. 40 sponsors reaching equilibrium. A few drop off, 10 more dump on.

So an outsider comes along and says, "Hi, I'm a manager at sister company of Yabloo, I have a proposal for you." Then the sponsor listens to the sell, figures it's never been done in adult before, and because they have committed themselves into sticking through and through within the family - ie. As Boss we are your sponsor, as siblings you are our trusting affiliates - lets keep this tightly glued with "trust" and maintain this cliquish atmosphere we see rampant here on GFY. And then we see a breakdown in entrepreneurial exchange when approached by those foreign Yabloo feelers. (hope it makes any sense, but its late. chow for now)

gentmaster

How is an impulse to see porn any different from an impulse to seeking news and subsribing to some online newspaper? Joe surfer is only looking to satiate some personal need. Porn -is- a commodity. At the point of sale is where everything matters. Something today's mainstream major sites have mastered, yet, no where to be seen in Adult.

I'm not saying there is some get rich magic secret out there that I may know. It's not that at all. I'm just saying today's mainstream business models are much more diverse and flexible. Executing those models needs business leadership beyond what I've seen in Porn today. And when some Sponsor knocks your proposal because of ignorance, a thread highlighting these concerns is worthy.

darksoul

Not long ago some sponsor made a contest on gfy.
I don't usually signup for this type of deals but
the site looked good so I thought I'd promote it regardless of the contest.
Their affiliate area was quite lacking so I contacted them for a small
favor in order to put their links up.
Needless to say they never got back to me.
I just don't get it, why try to get new affiliates if you're not gonna
answer their requests.

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the Shemp

great stuff, weve been waiting for the new Messiah...

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emthree

The select few creative ones, are the ones who are banking.
The private ones are usually the innovative ones.

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d00t

Anyone that is serious about making money from this biz would do wise to read RogerV 's comments. His thoughts are dead on target and echo'd by many other sponsors in the business.