Why do we care that John Lennon died twenty five years ago? - Page 2 - GoFuckYourself.com

sonofsam · 12-08-2005, 03:48 PM

50 john lennons

(damn i'm getting good at this

)

Maxy · 12-08-2005, 03:49 PM

obladi is great tune.

DraX · 12-08-2005, 03:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CamRabbit

He wasn't the greatest musician. His songs were just ok -- there was no great talent. He was a hippie, big fucking deal. The Beatles sucked too. I don't get the appeal.

A whole industry has evolved out of whoring out the bones of that long haired faggot.

Show some respect FFS, you dont have to watch the news or listen to the radio, change if you are not satisfied.

Let the people that loved Lennon be

I dont care, its not my music taste, but i can let those that want to put their time on him without a terdball like yourself hanging around..... bashing

CamRabbit · 12-08-2005, 03:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SilverTab

Sure its easy, today, to critizise them...and to say what they did was nothing...and yes they're better bands out there today....

The trick is to be the first to do it!...
You say the Beatles are just another boys band?? Thing is, there were no boys band in 1950-60...

Being the 2093433th poprock band today is no big deal...being the first one out there, almost 50 years ago, is something else...wheter you admit it or not, they had a huge influence on music....(and yes I know they were probably other bands BEFORE them and blah blah, but they were the first to really hit it big)

Its like saying Alexander Graham Bell shouldnt get credit for inventing the phone because we have cell phones today...You can't discredit someone for being the first to do something just because there are better things today...

Look at who the fans were erly in the Beatles career, particularly when they came to the USA. They were amost exclusivly preteen age girls who SCREAMED as loud as they could.

Brian Epstien most certainly did sculpt them into a boy band, before that the Beatles were playing in nudie clubs in Frankfurt West Germany.

Brian Epstein created the Beatles and all the hype surrounding them. Before the Beatles came to the USA they were a big local hit in the UK, when they got to the US they because a creation of Brian Epstein.
Later on in the late 60's when they broke away from Brian Epstein the Beatles started to fall apart, because they just didn't give a shit about their music anymore.

Afterthe Beatle broke up none of the guys were evr as bigsolo as they had been in the 60's as The Beatles.

The Beatles were 99% and 1% talent.

mardigras · 12-08-2005, 03:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CamRabbit

Do explain to us the relevance of "Ob-La-Di, Ob-La-Da".

No more "relevance" than, "My hump, my hump, my hump, my hump,
My hump, my hump, my hump, my hump, my hump, my hump."

CamRabbit · 12-08-2005, 03:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Platinum Bryan

sure dude whatever you say

Yeah ok.

Here's a question though. If the almighty John Lennon was so talented, and was such a great musician, how come he couldn't hear that his wife sounded like shit?

Have you ever heared yoko sing? It sounded like a badger getting fucked with a rake. I'm sorry love may be blind, but it aint fucking deaf. There's no reason to put that on an album. None.

John Lennon lost all credibility when he started promoting his wife's singing.

WebairGerard · 12-08-2005, 04:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CamRabbit

Thank goodness we have you and your elitist attitude to set us straight. Do explain to us the relevance of "Ob-La-Di, Ob-La-Da".

That's funny. I have an attitude. Go back and read all your posts in this thread dude!

Hey you don't like The Beatles or Lennon. That's fine. No disputing taste. But to thrash them and him the way your are tells me that you don't have an appreciation of music history. For example I hate KISS. But, I totally see what they did to shock rock/glam rock. Same with NY DOLLS.

I am not a Dylan fan but the man writes the GREATEST lyrics.

Hard Days Night was a parody of themselves and was funny.

Maxy · 12-08-2005, 04:03 PM

*cough* Dylan *cough* =)

Bryan G · 12-08-2005, 04:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CamRabbit

Yeah ok.

Here's a question though. If the almighty John Lennon was so talented, and was such a great musician, how come he couldn't hear that his wife sounded like shit?

Have you ever heared yoko sing? It sounded like a badger getting fucked with a rake. I'm sorry love may be blind, but it aint fucking deaf. There's no reason to put that on an album. None.

John Lennon lost all credibility when he started promoting his wife's singing.

Granted Yoko was shit, but earlier in this thread you where saying the Monkeys were better than the Beatles, you do know the Monkeys were a manufactured boy band like Backstreet Boys, NSYNC and all those Shit boy bands, right??

mardigras · 12-08-2005, 04:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CamRabbit

Your school girl crush on them tells me you probably have sex with men.

Most any GFY regular could tell you that I have sex with men

Marshal · 12-08-2005, 04:09 PM

Lennon rocks!

SomeCreep · 12-08-2005, 04:12 PM

Lennon rocked

CamRabbit · 12-08-2005, 04:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Platinum Bryan

Granted Yoko was shit, but earlier in this thread you where saying the Monkeys were better than the Beatles, you do know the Monkeys were a manufactured boy band like Backstreet Boys, NSYNC and all those Shit boy bands, right??

Yup, they were a manufactured band, and they were STILL better than the beatles. Sucks, huh?

Bryan G · 12-08-2005, 04:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CamRabbit

Yup, they were a manufactured band, and they were STILL better than the beatles. Sucks, huh?

Ya sure

mardigras · 12-08-2005, 04:48 PM

The Monkees had 3 #1 hits... The Beatles had how many? Oh yeah, enough to put out an entire CD (27 tracks) called 1 featuring them

Furious_Male · 12-08-2005, 04:53 PM

I can't think of a single song the Beatles did that I do not like. They are simply one of the best bands ever in my opinion.

Lennon was a great artist.

CamRabbit · 12-08-2005, 05:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mardigras

The Monkees had 3 #1 hits... The Beatles had how many? Oh yeah, enough to put out an entire CD (27 tracks) called 1 featuring them

Popularity doesn't equal talent.

Otherwise Britney Spears and Backstreet Boys would have been considered great musicians.

sniperwolf · 12-08-2005, 05:44 PM

prolly drinking my milk or having my gerber...

Sneezy · 12-08-2005, 05:45 PM

yo bro listen to the lyrics of Imagine for once and hopefully you will come to your senses. And maybe you could ask your parents or grandparents what Lennon and the Beatles meant to their generation. If you can't see the value of that cultural heritage, you're lost.

sniperwolf · 12-08-2005, 06:13 PM

I hear yeah.. I have a copy of the documentary film " Imagine"

.. really nice!

Timbo · 12-08-2005, 07:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by websiex

Yeah, that spot is reserved for Fifty Cent, right?

hahahahahaha

neverlearn · 12-08-2005, 07:10 PM

Im so opposed to people talkin shit about a musician so close to my family and i ....

BigCashCrew · 12-08-2005, 07:16 PM

In my opinion you suck ;)
John Lennon and the Beatles did a ton for rock and roll. I'm sure you have no idea what achievements they made. What kind of music do you listen to anyways?

The Beatles are the shit. Rubber Soul all the way to Abbey Road are the best albums ever written. Period.

BigCashCrew · 12-08-2005, 07:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CamRabbit

Yup, they were a manufactured band, and they were STILL better than the Beatles. Sucks, huh?

HAHA, you think the Monkeys are better than the Beatles? You are an idiot. hahahaha

Sarah_Jayne · 12-08-2005, 07:23 PM

Because the generation that now controls the news media considered him to be the voice of their generation. When my generation is in that position Kurt Cobain will get similiar but not as well deserved attention.

The whole Lennon shooting has so much drama to it aside from the fact that he wrote the soundtrack to a generation that it is little wonder if gets remembered.

Sarah_Jayne · 12-08-2005, 07:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mardigras

The Monkees laid a turd of movie though

Head is the single most drug induced movie I have ever seen.

Darkland · 12-08-2005, 07:28 PM

Well first off, why will anyone care 25 yrs after you die? If there are any left I would imagine your friends and family or anyone you made a difference in their life if you have ever even done that... Judging from your post here I assume not though.

Are the Beatles my favorite band no, more of a Mr. Mojo Risin man, but I still like and respect their status in Rock History and there unique sound and songs.

For you to bash a day fans, friends and family remember a legend who was gunned down by a psycho, whether you liked the Beatles or not, makes you an asshole.

But for you to state "Your Opinion" as fact and the only correct one, that everyone else having an opinion opposite yours is wrong makes you a moron too.

For you to say that the Monkees were better than the Beatles simply makes you retarded.

CDSmith · 12-08-2005, 07:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CamRabbit

That you bought into the whole Beatles thing speaks volumes about your intelligence.

The beatles were never my favorite band by a long shot, and I certainly didn't "buy into the whole hype" thing as you put it.... but I did live through that era and know first-hand just how huge and world-wide their impact was, and still is.

Hey, if 25 years after your death people are still celebrating your life then I will put stock in your opinion on this. Until then you're just another nobody cocking off on a message board about someone who actually had a high-profile productive life that millions still mark after his passing.

If he was alive today I'm sure you're right, he would be having more bed-ins and prancing around for the camera in order to bring the issue of ending the war in Iraq before millions more people.

What have YOU done for mankind lately?

DobermanB · 12-08-2005, 07:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CamRabbit

"Do you remember where you were when lennon was killed?"

How the fuck can I forget when you assholes remind me every year! Fucking media. Bunch of assholes with nothing better to do then tell us what to think and do and how we should feel.

Were you in your Moms body? Were you alive?

CDSmith · 12-08-2005, 07:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CamRabbit

Yeah ok.

Here's a question though. If the almighty John Lennon was so talented, and was such a great musician, how come he couldn't hear that his wife sounded like shit?

Have you ever heared yoko sing? It sounded like a badger getting fucked with a rake. I'm sorry love may be blind, but it aint fucking deaf. There's no reason to put that on an album. None.

John Lennon lost all credibility when he started promoting his wife's singing.

Lennon, like most of us here, was a flawed human being.

And Yoko does/did sound like a badger getting fucked with a rake.

SuckOnThis · 12-08-2005, 07:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CamRabbit

He wasn't the greatest musician. His songs were just ok -- there was no great talent. He was a hippie, big fucking deal. The Beatles sucked too. I don't get the appeal.

A whole industry has evolved out of whoring out the bones of that long haired faggot.

Looks like we have another Mark Chapman here. A porn surfer who has failed miserably trying to pay his $200 a month lot rent from feeble attempts at being a sig whore. Now becomes obsessed at hating one of the most successful human beings ever.

gg1e21 · 12-08-2005, 07:49 PM

Hey DorkJedi.

CDSmith · 12-08-2005, 07:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gg1e21

Hey DorkJedi.

Was wondering when this would get posted.

mikesinner · 12-08-2005, 08:17 PM

Imagine

Imagine there's no heaven,
It's easy if you try,
No hell below us,
Above us only sky,
Imagine all the people
living for today...

Imagine there's no countries,
It isnt hard to do,
Nothing to kill or die for,
No religion too,
Imagine all the people
living life in peace...

Imagine no possesions,
I wonder if you can,
No need for greed or hunger,
A brotherhood of man,
Imagine all the people
Sharing all the world...

You may say Im a dreamer,
but Im not the only one,
I hope some day you'll join us,
And the world will live as one.

lyn1 · 12-08-2005, 08:21 PM

Anyone who calls John Lennon a worthless hippies is either:

1. Retarded.

2. Young and stupid and born in the worthless 80's.

3. Doesn't understand the culture of music and has Sony Corporation so far up his arse that he wouldn't know which way to turn.

Don't you dickheads realise what John Lennon did for music and the generation of the time. He got people to start standing up and thinking for themselves. Question Government decisions (mostly bad). Wear what you wanted. Look like you wanted. Express yourself anyway you wanted and thumbs up to the righteous puratanical establishment of the time.

Yes, he had a lousy voice. Looked like a horses arse along with his wife and so did Bob Dylan. However, if you were educated enough to listen to the lyrics of the Lennons (and Dylans) you would understand what they were all about.

We have lot to thank Lennon for. His enlightened attitude to life, drugs, sex and attitude.

Getting back to todays music. Who have we got. What talent do we see who can sing without a computer taking out all the bad notes. Made up machines like the monkies of the 60's. Money making pieces of shit who can't sing. Rap crap that is easy to produce by Sony. Throw it all together and you have En En...En....in...Em Enimem.

Get a life guys. If you studied history, you would learn to appreciate the important role this guy Lennon played in history. He didn't count on Sony producing shit. My god, I can't even listend to the hit parade any more. It's f*cking shit along with most of the negative morons in this thread.

Lyn

kahell · 12-08-2005, 08:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CamRabbit

He wasn't the greatest musician. His songs were just ok -- there was no great talent. He was a hippie, big fucking deal. The Beatles sucked too. I don't get the appeal.

A whole industry has evolved out of whoring out the bones of that long haired faggot.

your full of shit and just trolling around

whatever you do and say or given a chance to live for the nth time (100x) you wont achieve what lenon achieved

mikesinner · 12-08-2005, 08:33 PM

John Lennon was responsible for at least half of the beatles lyrics. He didn't write as many great songs on his own but he did have some good solo stuff. The fact that he was such a major part of the beatles alone is enough to keep him in the halls of music legends like elvis and others for all eternity. The beatles were from a time when people spoke the words first and sang second. Music spoke to your heart and had meaning. The beatles wrote poetry and then set it to music. Try reading the lyrics sometime and you will get a better appreciation for them

SongRider · 12-08-2005, 08:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CDSmith

The beatles were never my favorite band by a long shot, and I certainly didn't "buy into the whole hype" thing as you put it.... but I did live through that era and know first-hand just how huge and world-wide their impact was, and still is.

Hey, if 25 years after your death people are still celebrating your life then I will put stock in your opinion on this. Until then you're just another nobody cocking off on a message board about someone who actually had a high-profile productive life that millions still mark after his passing.

If he was alive today I'm sure you're right, he would be having more bed-ins and prancing around for the camera in order to bring the issue of ending the war in Iraq before millions more people.

What have YOU done for mankind lately?

Bravo Bravo!!!!

Very well said.....

mikesinner · 12-08-2005, 09:05 PM

How he died did help his fame as it does with many celebrities. But he was shot in the back six times after giving the guy who shot him an autograph. His last act was one of kindness and he left this world with a wife and son. His son saw his father lying their in a pool of blood. No one who lives a half way decent life deserves to die like that. I think Lennon would have given us lots more great or at least above average music if he would have lived. Look at Paul. He was not the better song writer of the two and he has done very well with his solo career

reed_4 · 12-08-2005, 09:48 PM

BigCashCrew · 12-08-2005, 09:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CDSmith

Lennon, like most of us here, was a flawed human being.

And Yoko does/did sound like a badger getting fucked with a rake.

haha, yeah no shit. listen to her on The White Album Track: The Continuing Story of Bungalow Bill. She is terrible.

12-08-2005, 03:48 PM	#51
sonofsam Too lazy to set a custom title Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Vancouver Posts: 18,638	50 john lennons (damn i'm getting good at this ) __________________ I like turtles.

12-08-2005, 03:49 PM	#52
Maxy Confirmed User Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: NYC Posts: 1,858	obladi is great tune. __________________ SIG TOO BIG! Maximum 120x60 button and no more than 3 text lines of DEFAULT SIZE and COLOR. Unless your sig is for a GFY top banner sponsor, you may use a 624x80 instead of a 120x60. Let me repeat... A 120 x 60 button and no more that 3 lines of DEFAULT SIZE AND COLOR text.

12-08-2005, 04:03 PM	#58
Maxy Confirmed User Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: NYC Posts: 1,858	cough Dylan cough =) __________________ SIG TOO BIG! Maximum 120x60 button and no more than 3 text lines of DEFAULT SIZE and COLOR. Unless your sig is for a GFY top banner sponsor, you may use a 624x80 instead of a 120x60. Let me repeat... A 120 x 60 button and no more that 3 lines of DEFAULT SIZE AND COLOR text.

12-08-2005, 04:09 PM	#61
Marshal Biz Dev and SEO Industry Role: Join Date: Jun 2005 Posts: 15,180	Lennon rocks! __________________ --- Busy ranking websites on Google...

12-08-2005, 04:12 PM	#62
SomeCreep :glugglug Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Where the Wild Things Are Posts: 26,118	Lennon rocked __________________ Webair Hosting I use and recommend Webair for hosting.

12-08-2005, 04:48 PM	#65
mardigras Bon temps! Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: down yonder Posts: 14,194	The Monkees had 3 #1 hits... The Beatles had how many? Oh yeah, enough to put out an entire CD (27 tracks) called 1 featuring them

12-08-2005, 04:53 PM	#66
Furious_Male Doing the grind since 99 Industry Role: Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: Buffalo NY Posts: 16,881	I can't think of a single song the Beatles did that I do not like. They are simply one of the best bands ever in my opinion. Lennon was a great artist. __________________ Living in Virtual Reality Contact: Email (preferred): furiousmale .at. gmail - Skype: live:shanedws

12-08-2005, 05:44 PM	#68
sniperwolf Too lazy to set a custom title Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 17,743	prolly drinking my milk or having my gerber... __________________ ~Accepting design works~

12-08-2005, 05:45 PM	#69
Sneezy Confirmed User Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Canada Posts: 450	yo bro listen to the lyrics of Imagine for once and hopefully you will come to your senses. And maybe you could ask your parents or grandparents what Lennon and the Beatles meant to their generation. If you can't see the value of that cultural heritage, you're lost. __________________ no sig 4u

12-08-2005, 06:13 PM	#70
sniperwolf Too lazy to set a custom title Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 17,743	I hear yeah.. I have a copy of the documentary film " Imagine" .. really nice! __________________ ~Accepting design works~

12-08-2005, 07:10 PM	#72
neverlearn Confirmed User Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Banners, FPA, HPA, FLASH, Illustration, Web Design, Print, posters, business cards, LOGOS ...ICQ 210-450-833 Posts: 2,085	Im so opposed to people talkin shit about a musician so close to my family and i .... __________________ DICK TOO BIG! Maximum 120x60 button and no more than 3 text lines of DEFAULT SIZE and COLOR. Unless your sig is for a GFY top banner sponsor, you may use a 624x80 instead of a 120x60. Let me repeat... A 120 x 60 button and no more that 3 lines of DEFAULT SIZE AND COLOR text.

12-08-2005, 07:16 PM	#73
BigCashCrew Registered User Join Date: Aug 2005 Posts: 3,570	In my opinion you suck ;) John Lennon and the Beatles did a ton for rock and roll. I'm sure you have no idea what achievements they made. What kind of music do you listen to anyways? The Beatles are the shit. Rubber Soul all the way to Abbey Road are the best albums ever written. Period.

12-08-2005, 07:23 PM	#75
Sarah_Jayne Now with more Jayne Industry Role: Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Los Angeles Posts: 40,077	Because the generation that now controls the news media considered him to be the voice of their generation. When my generation is in that position Kurt Cobain will get similiar but not as well deserved attention. The whole Lennon shooting has so much drama to it aside from the fact that he wrote the soundtrack to a generation that it is little wonder if gets remembered.

12-08-2005, 07:28 PM	#77
Darkland Confirmed User Join Date: May 2002 Posts: 1,488	Well first off, why will anyone care 25 yrs after you die? If there are any left I would imagine your friends and family or anyone you made a difference in their life if you have ever even done that... Judging from your post here I assume not though. Are the Beatles my favorite band no, more of a Mr. Mojo Risin man, but I still like and respect their status in Rock History and there unique sound and songs. For you to bash a day fans, friends and family remember a legend who was gunned down by a psycho, whether you liked the Beatles or not, makes you an asshole. But for you to state "Your Opinion" as fact and the only correct one, that everyone else having an opinion opposite yours is wrong makes you a moron too. For you to say that the Monkees were better than the Beatles simply makes you retarded. __________________ "The towers are gone now, reduced to bloody rubble, along with all hopes for Peace in Our Time, in the United States or any other country. Make no mistake about it: We are At War now -- with somebody -- and we will stay At War with that mysterious Enemy for the rest of our lives." H.S.T. 09/12/01

12-08-2005, 07:49 PM	#82
gg1e21 Confirmed User Join Date: Nov 2005 Posts: 116	Hey DorkJedi.

12-08-2005, 08:17 PM	#84
mikesinner Confirmed User Industry Role: Join Date: Nov 2005 Posts: 5,646	Imagine Imagine there's no heaven, It's easy if you try, No hell below us, Above us only sky, Imagine all the people living for today... Imagine there's no countries, It isnt hard to do, Nothing to kill or die for, No religion too, Imagine all the people living life in peace... Imagine no possesions, I wonder if you can, No need for greed or hunger, A brotherhood of man, Imagine all the people Sharing all the world... You may say Im a dreamer, but Im not the only one, I hope some day you'll join us, And the world will live as one. __________________ My Best Sponsors MPl l Camsl CUMSHOTSl LESBIANSl FETISHl BJ RACESl TEEN BJl BSDMl VODl USE YOUR PC TO CURE CANCER

12-08-2005, 08:21 PM	#85
lyn1 Confirmed User Join Date: Dec 2005 Posts: 429	Missing the Point Anyone who calls John Lennon a worthless hippies is either: 1. Retarded. 2. Young and stupid and born in the worthless 80's. 3. Doesn't understand the culture of music and has Sony Corporation so far up his arse that he wouldn't know which way to turn. Don't you dickheads realise what John Lennon did for music and the generation of the time. He got people to start standing up and thinking for themselves. Question Government decisions (mostly bad). Wear what you wanted. Look like you wanted. Express yourself anyway you wanted and thumbs up to the righteous puratanical establishment of the time. Yes, he had a lousy voice. Looked like a horses arse along with his wife and so did Bob Dylan. However, if you were educated enough to listen to the lyrics of the Lennons (and Dylans) you would understand what they were all about. We have lot to thank Lennon for. His enlightened attitude to life, drugs, sex and attitude. Getting back to todays music. Who have we got. What talent do we see who can sing without a computer taking out all the bad notes. Made up machines like the monkies of the 60's. Money making pieces of shit who can't sing. Rap crap that is easy to produce by Sony. Throw it all together and you have En En...En....in...Em Enimem. Get a life guys. If you studied history, you would learn to appreciate the important role this guy Lennon played in history. He didn't count on Sony producing shit. My god, I can't even listend to the hit parade any more. It's f*cking shit along with most of the negative morons in this thread. Lyn

12-08-2005, 08:33 PM	#87
mikesinner Confirmed User Industry Role: Join Date: Nov 2005 Posts: 5,646	John Lennon was responsible for at least half of the beatles lyrics. He didn't write as many great songs on his own but he did have some good solo stuff. The fact that he was such a major part of the beatles alone is enough to keep him in the halls of music legends like elvis and others for all eternity. The beatles were from a time when people spoke the words first and sang second. Music spoke to your heart and had meaning. The beatles wrote poetry and then set it to music. Try reading the lyrics sometime and you will get a better appreciation for them __________________ My Best Sponsors MPl l Camsl CUMSHOTSl LESBIANSl FETISHl BJ RACESl TEEN BJl BSDMl VODl USE YOUR PC TO CURE CANCER

12-08-2005, 09:05 PM	#89
mikesinner Confirmed User Industry Role: Join Date: Nov 2005 Posts: 5,646	How he died did help his fame as it does with many celebrities. But he was shot in the back six times after giving the guy who shot him an autograph. His last act was one of kindness and he left this world with a wife and son. His son saw his father lying their in a pool of blood. No one who lives a half way decent life deserves to die like that. I think Lennon would have given us lots more great or at least above average music if he would have lived. Look at Paul. He was not the better song writer of the two and he has done very well with his solo career __________________ My Best Sponsors MPl l Camsl CUMSHOTSl LESBIANSl FETISHl BJ RACESl TEEN BJl BSDMl VODl USE YOUR PC TO CURE CANCER

12-08-2005, 09:48 PM	#90
reed_4 Confirmed User Join Date: Jul 2005 Posts: 9,640	__________________