Well I'm going to play Devils Advocate here.

We've got a bunch of webmasters in here defending something that is illegal in our country. Censorship be damned...bestiality is still illegal in our country.

But in a variety of cases that have gone to the supreme court, so called artistic photos of children in various forms of nudity has been ruled a protected form of free speech.

Why are you not defending that? LOL

Like I said I'm playing devil's advocate here.

One is clearly illegal, and one is not...however both walk and at various points cross morality and decency lines.

Claims that one man's junk is another man's art are true....so which art do we keep and which art do we throw out and who gets to be the judge?

Amp, the limits I'm referring to have are LEGAL LIMITS. There's no law against making a processor too fast, or an engine too powerful.

Your closest example is that of Howard Stern. True, he pushed the limit, but his viewers were by consent, and his guests were by consent.

BEASTIALITY IS NOT BY CONSENT! and that's what could make it illegal on a national basis....
And Amp you may say in response that animals aren't slaughtered for food by consent either..... but the truth is that we need that food to survive - we dont need beasiality to survive.

You're saying kids are no better than livestock?

There's a big difference between humans and animals....

Animals are P-R-O-P-E-R-T-Y.

this probably dosen't effect all visa proccessing.

probably just north american merchants using visa for proccessing.

:)

I can't speak for IBill or what they may tell you. And we will notify anyone who's affected as soon as possible.

:helpme
Could someone please tell if this affects Visa US or Visa world - Thx

This isn't even worth an answer.

Do you eat meat of any kind? I asked you this before and you ignored it.

I don't like beasty stuff personally. Personally I wouldn't be sad to see it banned in the US. But using consent as the basis of your argument, means you've lost.

The cow I ate for dinner for last night probably didn't consent to it, but he still got flushed down the toilet 3 hours ago, and oddly enough I don't advocate eating children (usually).

Beast is NOT illegal in the United States. It is a misdemeanor in only a FEW states.

And that is the ACT of humping a goat... not having pics of someone humping a goat. Huge difference.

So if one is at worst a misdemeanor, having pics I am unaware of anyone being busted for beast pics. I remember the big shit fest when they found beast pics on some white house workers machine, the person was merely fired, not sent to prison.

I hate people, esp the ones on this board.

Fatpad sorry the whole vegetarian issue is a little far fetched for this...it's one thing to use an animal for surviving....hell I don't need to fuck cow to survive...LOL

I'm still in devil's advocate mode....this is going to be an interesting thread.

as much as you like to think "Fluffy" is his own little doggie person with all kinds of personality and rights and whatnot.... he's still a piece of fucking property.

And no.... beast is NOT illegal everywhere... (for whoever said it was up there).... I'm not defending beast here... I still personally think it's twisted as hell.... but I don't like censorship in any form. And if some sick fuck wants to pay to see it, then he should be able to do so. And he will..... VISA is not the be-all end-all of transactions.... there are lots of other ways to exchange money.

FATPad,

We consume meat because that is a natural process. A lion eats a mouse because it needs to survive. Its called: NATURE.

Having sex with animals is not natural.

Men having sex with other men is not natural either.

Clay's getting a dvd?

Come on labret you can do better than that...people don't get sent to jail for having underage art photos in their possession unless being arrested for other charges like molestation or possession of actual cp.

My point is one is protected free speech (underage art photos) this has been ruled on by the supreme court..

And one is not (bestiality) who cares if it's a misdemeanor or felony it's still a crime.

So my point still stands which art do we protect and which do we throw by the way side and who gets to be the judge?

Once again I'm only playing devils advocate here ;)

ahahahaha shut... down...

Let Fatpad think he's intelligent, he's arguing over beastiality for fuck sakes... He needs his own help already

I have the law,visa and pretty much 95% of the public on my side.... I must be wrong! You have some sick fucks and a few paranoid anti censorship webmasters on your side

did you know that you can legally drive in Idaho now while stoned?

How is that possible? It's still an illegal substance, yet you can drive legally while under the influence of it.

Interesting.

My point exactly. And everything else that isnt' natural but it legal is at least concesual (well, except for beastiality....)

Come on Amp take a breath slow down read the entire post...LOL

I never said it was illegal everywhere I said it was illegal in the U.S.

What about my point tho'.

US wm's are defending something that is clearly illegal in the u.s. regardless of whether or not it's a misdemeanor or felony...but yet are fine when something like underage nude photography which has been rules as constitutionally protected free speech gets tossed by the way side.

I in fact used your statement that one man's junk is another man's art....
Which art do we keep? Which art do we toss out?

Who gets to be the judge?

Still in devils advocate mode :)

Tell that to my dog and he will "Amputate Your Head"..LOLOL

Just had to through that in...heck I don't even have a dog, well I did but he's into the movie scene now..making the big bucks....hahahaha

I could have guessed you were going to say that.

If one man decides that he wants to have sex with another man, and both agree (consent) to that particular action - it is a natural process.

I assume you have never heard of homosexual acts between 2 animals?

Apparently VISA is the judge.

smoking pot is a crime, but how many here do it daily?

LOL touche'

My dog eating once a day at 5p isn't natural for him. If he had his choice, he'd be eating whenever he wanted.

The fish I have in my fish tank isn't natural. They'd rather be in their natural environments in the wild.

Rats being kept in cages and shot up with the equivalent of 500 cans of coke to see the effect of caffeine on the nervous system isn't natural.

Men having sex with men isn't natural.

Sitting in front of a computer zipping electronic impulses around the world isn't really the most natural thing anyone can do.

Lots of things aren't natural.

Arguing animal consent and natural actions isn't going to convince anyone of anything. :) I still dislike beasty stuff, but the arguments against it suck so far, and have nothing to do with why I dislike beasty sites. :)

You mean like when my one boy dog starts humping the other boy dog? Oh wait, I guess both of them do it to each other...

The same could be said about gay porn, scat, pee, fisting...

Are you prepared to say those should go as well just because you have "public opinion" and "visa" on your side? Because you dont have the law on your side. That has already been established.

No shit and people rape and murder too.

We're not just discussing a "legistlating morality" issue here.

We're discussing constitutional issues here.

No one wants to address the underage art photos here...LOL

Like I keep saying...one is protected free speech and one is not?

So why are you not defending underage art photography?

Once again I'm just playing devils advocate here.

You're losing ground. You said it was wrong because it's not natural. Well men having sex with other men is not natural either. Therefore, ban the fucking shit. Right now. Call VISA and have them add it to their fucking list.

Fuck consent. Consent hasn't got a fucking thing to do with it. Animals are property and you don;t need consent from a piece of your fucking property to be able to do whatever you damn well please with it. Most of these states say in their beast laws, "It is illegal to have sex with another person's animal without the OWNER'S consent".... not the fucking animals consent.

So... with that little diversion out of the way, let's get back to the whole natural thing here....

Dildos are not natural.
Fisting is not natural.
Tranny's are not natural.
Gays (men & women) are not natural.
Pissing on people is not natural.
Sucking on people's feet is not natural.
Wearing a leather mask and being whipped while chained up and suspended from the ceiling in a dark stanky room is not fucking natural.

Shall I go on?

Shut them all fucking down right now. It's not natural.

bullshit....how many posts here talk about drawing a line and being moral?



and as for lines being drawn....my late grandfather, the Mormon Bishop? his line was at bikinis (one piece) to him a two piece was obscene) I guess we're lucky he wasn't the industry morailty cop?

The following comments are my opinions I didn?t read this whole thread so it is probably all repeated lol.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Flynt was an idiot when he talked about pushing limits! He pushed limits and now he is in a rut and has pushed as far as he can, he says stop pushing the limits.

This goes much deeper than the debate should there be beastie or not. Pee or not, scat or not. This is bullshit; this is putting a lock on YOUR profits and if you don?t see that then your one or two things, not making enough money to understand that or plain stupid.

Why would you incurrage any intervention by any agency especially one that controls so much of out profits? Its ridicules to so some of the people who have been in this industry for a while sit idly by and not even raise an eyebrow. Again its not about fluffy being a fluffer its about a company putting caps on our income and controlling what the surfer can see and pay for.

This is a shitty movement and I honestly do not see a way around it.

I hate idiots

I said "were NOT JUST discussing legislating morality issues"

I didn't say we weren't at all...just not only discussing these issues...but more importantly what we are discussing here is constitutionality issues.

Visa holds it within their hands to cripple not just this industry but any other that relies on payments that are either not made in person or require credit to pay, such as hotels, airlines etc.

It's not unique that they say ok, you can't process for this -- online gambling was the first industry to take it up the ass from them -- when a bank can say, nope, I don't want to process these types of transactions, or when a non governmental body takes it upon themselves to regulate commerce, it's never good.


The argument isn't about whether bestiality is right, moral, or even something one can look at without wanting to hurl. It's about an entity, a commercial one at that, dictating what people can and cannot see.

Precisely.

:thumbsup

So then you're all for protecting the constitutionally protected free speech that are artistic underage lolita nude sites?


still in devils advocate mode here :)

Amputate Your Head,

I never said that we should ban everything that is not natural.
Sexual urges/needs are normal, however I still believe you should not use an animal for it as it does not have the intelligence to respond with a yes or no.

And maybe your laws see animals as property, I don't look at them like I look at my computer.

I have read your messages on this thread and I don't really see your personal opinion anywhere....

The "I dont care" phrase is getting old.


btw: I am enjoying this discussion ;-)

I just said that LOL

How come this doesn't read:

The arguement isn't about whether underage lolita art pics is right, moral or even something one can look at without wanting to hur. It's about an entity, a commercial one at that, dictating what people can and cannot see.



hehe devil's advocate mode still on.

No stinky, thats illegal.. goat fucking is not.

Actually, Visa is a business. :) They can stop processing for whatever they want.

If the free market demand for something is strong enough, someone else will start doing the processing for whatever Visa dumps.

Visa dumps beastiality, enough people cry out that they want their beastiality, someone else starts covering the processing for beast sites.

The free market rocks in that regard. :)

**Humans are the only living creatures that engage in sex for pleasure [Learning Channel 2002]. **

Incorrect, dolphins have been found to have sex for pleasure and that was several years ago... PBS... ;-)

I'm going to have to go back and try and track down that article that listed the items that the Federal US Courts HAVE qualified as obscene in the States, I do remember that they included:

Lolita
Bestiality
CP or Under 18 (in suggestive or sexual poses)
Fisting
Real or Faux Rape, Murder or Violence
And some other extreme fetishes.

The article was written by the attorney that does the articles for adultwebmasterboard or whatever it is. Considering he is an internet specialist, I should think he'd know what is what. And IF I remember right he also included a link in the article to a govt url that stated this info. It states that NO United States citizen may own, possesss (blah blah blah) such a site. For profit or free use etc. I *do* know I saw a govt page that stated the same things as the article almost to a plagerized form. lol

So Visa is shutting down what the courts have already determined as obscene. Sure its a hazy thing to decipher, but remeber the att general is against dancing... think he will NOT prosecute these sites when he's done flaying taliban and al quada? Guess again. Plan on the other major credit cards doing the same. And no new Dutch processor can do diddly if the cc's refuse such charges. They are starting to cover their tails.

Note that *I* am not stating any opinions on bestiality, just stating the facts as I read them. :2 cents:

That hits the nail firmly on the head. :thumbsup

Before people start to think I'm defending underage lolita pic sites I am not.

My point is you can almost not defend one without defending the other here.

Once again underage pics has been ruled constitutionally protected free speech in the us but bestiality hasn't.

So all the arguments about censorship...apply to underage lolita sites as well...so my question to you guys who are willing to go to battle for beastie sites....are you willing to go to battle for these?

and if no...why not? The same arguments apply here.

When you break it down the law says one is okay and one isn't...
however they both walk the fine lines of decency and morality.

Let me ask you this:

Did your houseplants consent to being put into a pot to live out it's existence in your apartment?

Did your weinerdog consent to wearing his collar? Did he tell you "Yeah, it's cool man...."?

Did your cat consent to being de-clawed?

How about your bird? Does he really want to live in that cage? Did he ask you to put him in there?

Did KFC's chickens say it was cool to be slaughtered and eaten?

How about all these dog shows and shit..... do you think they agreed to jumping through flaming hoops and taking a dump on demand?

Do you ask permission before you pull a fish out of the lake? You're not gonna eat it.... it's just sport.... throw him back.... is it cool with the fish that you just impaled him with a big metal hook?

Your argument is baseless.

No sir you are wrong.

Underage lolita sites that contain so called "artistic photos' are not illegal.

No one is talking about cp here...we're talking about the so called art sites.

They tried to prosecute guys like Jock Sturges numerous times but it has been ruled constitutionally protected free speech by the supreme court.

I'm not defending these sites once again I'm playing devil's advocate here....and you can buy Jock Sturges books in most of your "finer" bookstores like Barnes and Noble etc.

If you're gonna be an animal rights fanatic, then do it all the way..... and don't say all those other things are cool, but fucking a sheep isn't. It's hypocritical and makes you look silly.

** goat fucking is not ** Actually it IS in most States. lol Animal cruelty and all that. Same as training dogs to fight or cock fighting. :1orglaugh

Amputate Your Head,

Again, no personal opinion from you.

Also, most of the things on your lists I don't have so I can't comment on those.

As far as the "houseplant" comment goes:

The plant is being fed well, I am not having sex with it and I look after it. No, the plant did not ask to be put in my residence in a pot however according to the world of science I am not harming it.

Science has not yet showed what effects human-animal sex have on animals so we have to wait and see. I would put it under animal cruelty.

How about sport-fishing then? You ARE harming the fish with your hook, and he did not ask to be fished out of the lake. Does that not fall under cruelty then?

I hope they do -- these fucking teenie sites get all the traffic and all of it is with the lure of "young teen hardcore" -- fuck all these sites... If VISA banned these sales I know my traffic and sales would increase... The sad thing is VISA can't do shit about freesites...