Libertine

It makes people want to take ineffective measures that do nothing to prevent terrorism but harm the civil liberties that form the very basis of western civilization instread.

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theking

Conversely what do you think would be effective measures to prevent "terrorism"? Also what civil liberties are being harmed?

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Libertine

Note that I wrote "makes people want to", I am not specifically referring to civil liberties actually being taken away or not but to people wanting them to be taken away in the name of fighting terrorism. Things people want taken away (from others) when they feel threatened include the right to a fair trial, freedom of speech, racial equality, etc.

I don't claim to know "the" way to eradicate terrorism, ofcourse, although to me it would seem that a carefully balanced package of measures targetting both the immediate cause as well as indirect causes would be the best way to fight it. What I am sure of, however, is that giving up the very essence of modern western society is not a very good way to fight those who oppose modern western society.

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Persignup Qon

the sad thing is, you are right.... & yes, many civil liberties have been taken away due to terrorism




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crankit

It goes without saying that our hearts go out to our comrades in England. Once again, I have to ask: When are we gonna stop jerking around with Koran abuse investigations and start killing these Al Queda pricks? They are uncivilized Nazis; if you don''t lose sleep over what we did to the Nazis during and after WW2, I don''t know why you''re upset with anything we do to these scumbags, whether it''s in Guantanimo Bay or on the battlefield. Before you think I''m going insane by saying this, here''s a little history lesson: When the allies discovered the concentration camps in WW2, they lined up all the German guards - sometimes hundreds at a time - and machine-gunned them into ditches. No trial. No Geneva convention protections. They just rounded them up, shot them dead and threw dirt on them. Do you think they should have been tried for war crimes? Now we throw our guys in jail for putting underwear on people''s heads and, as that treasonous dick Dick Durbin says, "torturing captives with loud rap music." Loud rap music? Jesus - by those standards, I''m tortured every day, since I live and drive in Miami! But I''m getting ahead of myself.

Many people want to blame someone besides Al Queda for the London bombings. I say Al Queda and militant Islam are the only things to blame for the London bombings, along with most terrorism and conflict going on in the world today. Sit back and watch as each opposing argument is deflated one by one... J

"They attacked London because Tony Blair backs Bush on the war in Iraq!" My ass. Remember the tanker ship they bombed in Europe a few years ago? It was French. Yet France has been against U.S. policy since 2002. They blew up that club in Bali, Indonesia - A PREDOMINANTLY MUSLIM COUNTRY which staged huge protests against the wars in Afghanistan AND Iraq! Kinda throws that argument out the window, although it''s a convenient argument for Al Queda to use.

"It''s because Bush and Blair invaded Iraq!" We weren''t in Iraq when Al Queda attacked on 9/11, so that kinda flushes that nonsense down the toilet. It has nothing to do with Iraq, although again, it''s a convenient argument. It galvanizes the anti-war movement within the USA and England, which does nothing but help Al Queda''s cause. The more politically correct we get and the lower our morale sinks, our policy softens under political pressure, which in turn helps the enemy - western civilization''s enemy, not just President Bush''s. Islamic fundamentalists would nerve-gas you, your mother, Alec Baldwin, Jeaneen Garofalo, Al Franken, Ted Kennedy, Dick Durbin, and every other non-Muslim out of existence if they could.

"It''s because of western foreign policy; we''re getting what we deserve." Well, the first part of this statement is partially true. The west is hated by Al Queda and most of the middle east because we back Israel, but that''s not the only reason. This statement fails to point out the fact that Al Queda and millions of other incredibly ignorant, intolerant and bigoted people around the world hate our morals, our music, our unveiled women, our pursuit of happiness and our non-Islamic culture in general. And the last part of that statement is just self-loathing stupidity. I mean, do you really think YOU deserve to die because your country is allied with a Jewish state? If so, you''re a dangerously stupid person.

We''re gonna finish up with Israel, but first, I wanna give the real reasons why Al Queda attacked London (and for that matter, why they attack anywhere). It''s very easy to understand. Here it is: "Islam good! Non-Islam bad! Jew even worse!" There it is; Islamic fundamentalist foreign policy and philosophy summed up in one sentence. See how simple it is to understand the small mind of the Islamic fundamentalist???

OK, I''ll break it down a little more: They attacked London because A) the English do not follow the law of Islam, B) they could attack London a lot easier than they could attack the U.S. right now and C) any strike against western culture is a victory for their cause, their cause being the death of all infidels and the spread of militant Islam throughout the world. It''s that simple. These sub-human vermin want ALL of us dead! Nothing less! They want no trace of western culture and ideology in existence. It''s bigger than Israel, and it''s bigger than the US and England invading Iraq. The US AND Western Europe are the biggest symbols of non-Islamic culture in the world, so we get the brunt of all their crap. Israel just gets it because they''re Jewish.

And the only way to defeat them is to show them the same intolerance they show us. This should be OUR foreign policy/philosophical statement: "Kill all Islamic fundamentalists before they kill us again." Of course, i must stress the clarifier: All Islamic FUNDAMENTALISTS, not all practicioners of Islam. But there it is! A plan that will insure victory and minimal loss of non-Islamic fundamentalist life... Anything less won''t work. And while Bush and Blair keep pussyfooting around with a small raid here and an internal investigation on our own forces there, we will continue to be confronted with fundamentalist madness. The only way you defeat these religious nuts is by total annihilation - you take away all hope for them. ALL hope. The only future they should know is one of certain death and destruction, and it is well within our ability to give them that. How many more of us westerners have to die before someone in our government does something that actually makes a difference? Even one more death is too many. Stop pussing out, Bush. You''re killing us. Literally.

And to finish up on Israel: Do you really think it''s wrong for the US to back Israel - the ONLY fully-functional democracy in the whole region? The only country in that region where ALL religions can co-exist without persecution? The only country over there that doesn''t teach hate in their schools? The only one over there that practices tolerance and due process??? Do you think other countries like France, China, Russia, Egypt, and Syria don''t fund groups and nations outside their own borders? If you think the US is the only country cutting deals and buying interest in foreign lands and governments, you''re as foolish as you are naïve.

"But the Palestinians are oppressed by Israel!" HA! "Palestine" caused itself to be oppressed (I put it in quotes, because "Palestine" was never a country - it''s like saying "South Floridia") by breeding a hate-filled, bigoted, and ignorant populace. They fight their non-oppressors and then cry about the injustice when the Israelis fight back.

The Israelis, as opposed to their Arab neighbors, NEVER tried to kick the Palestinians out of "Palestine". Yet despite bringing running water, better-built homes, roads, etc. to Palestinian lands, the Israelis got nothing but suicide bombers and Palestinian gunmen for their efforts. Why? BECAUSE ISRAEL IS, oh god, heaven forbid, A JEWISH STATE. They just can''t stand the idea that they, as Muslims, have to live in a country set up primarily by and for Jews. What a terrible fate to endure - for a bigot. I''m not Christian, yet I live in the predominantly Christian US without even the slightest urge to blow myself up on a bus. Why can''t the Palestinians do it?

I''m not Jewish, nor do I practice any organized Judeo-Christian religion, so I make the following statement objectively: Virtually everyone against Israel is anti-Semitic to some degree. Do an experiment. Talk to people who are against Israel and see how many times they say, "...but the Jews... the Jews this, the Jews that... and the Jews did this... but the Jews started that..." I''ve done this experiment. You usually won''t hear them say "the Israelis" at all - maybe once or twice. But you''ll hear "the Jews..." about ten times a minute. Most anti-Israel people are probably too ignorant to even know the difference between a Jew and an Israeli. It''s sad. No wonder many Israelis are such intense people - they are a few million standing up to about a billion people who want to see them blown into oblivion! To give some perspective: Despite huge progress, African-Americans in the USA still have a somewhat uphill battle against racism and discrimination - Now imagine the plight of the Israelis in the middle east!

So if you are anti-Israeli, ask yourself: do you really want to be an ignorant bigot in the 21st century? Do some serious self-examination, then research the history of the middle east WITHOUT using Al Jazira''s or Moveon.org''s websites and tell me if you''re still anti-Israel. There is no way you can be if you know the facts - UNLESS you''re a bigot. And that''s my two cents on current events. Live long and prosper, unless you''re an Islamic fundamentalist... J

Libertine

crankit, you're a terrorist. Therefore, you should not get a fair trial to determine whether you're a terrorist or not, should not be given the chance to speak or write freely, and others should not be given the opportunity to defend you from accusations in the media. You're guilty until proven innocent, and because you're guilty you should not get the right to prove you're innocent.

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg...books&n=507846

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AmigoPorn

It would be ideal if we first make a really good effort to try to understand the root causes of it, then take it from there.
Only god knows whats inside those people's minds.
It's totally wrong to fight terror with terror.

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Code_Havoc

I think it's the lack of what's inside their minds that is the underlying problem. The overall cause of terrorism with the specific people in question is rather simple, narrowmindedness. They don't like that there are people out there that believe in a different imaginery guy in the sky, they don't like that there are people out there that don't see women as subservient creatures, they dont like that there are people out there that can (and sometimes) think for themselves, the list goes on, but I think you can get the idea.

alexg

Spain has proved without a doubt that terrorism can work in some places...

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AmigoPorn

I think this is one of the problems, we think we know all about them, and what makes them tick, yet we know nothing. They are a different culture, they have a very different belief system.

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Code_Havoc

Exactly, however I think many people would be a lot more willing to be more open-minded toward them if they weren't doing stuff like they did in London and Spain.

Gunni

I saw an interesting documentary yesterday called "we have ways of making you talk".
Was quite interesting to see both torturers and people that had been tortured sharing their point of view. Also showed how even ordinary civilians can be turned into torturers simply by being given orders to do so and told they are not responsible (here's a link about that http://old.newhavenadvocate.com/articles/zap.html).

The conclusion was that torture be it mental or physical certainly is effective, but only undermines the governments applying them as they see it as more and more effective way their willingness to administrate torture becomes more carefree, and ends up being used on innocent people more often than guilty.

There is never a good reason to compromise our freedome or what we stand for, only then will the terrorists have won!

directfiesta

Way before the attacks, the elected party had included in it's program that it would pull out the spanish troops out of the unlawfull ,unjustified and false pretensed war in Iraq.

If there would have been no attack, the outcome would have been the same.

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Gunni

what ever, you just see the mindless propaganda of the warmongers.
The socialists would've won, and they would've pulled out the troops no matter what

alexg

what makes you think the elected party would be elected if it wasn't for the attack?

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cambaby

Spain = pussies. A couple beheadings a couple of train bombings and they run away like they are running in Pamplona. Thats what Spaniards do, they run.

cambaby

Are you not German?

Libertine

Yes, indeed I am not German.

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cambaby

I thought you were an anarchist? Maybe you just play one on TV ehh?

Libertine

An anarchist? Me?

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rickholio

Excellent answer, and one that should be expected of a fine, upstanding patriot who has signed up to serve and protect the free world. When do you start your tour?

I mean, you HAVE signed up to put your ass where your mouth is, right? Noone would expect that you're being a hypocritical armchair warrior, cowed-but-loud thousands of miles away from a situation you know nothing about.

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rickholio

I don't know if there an effective measure against terrorism. It's been a method used quite successfully by partisans since the beginning of recorded history.

However, the civil liberties thing is pretty simple. Let's start with the USA PATRIOT act section 213 and the Fourth Amendment:

The USA PATRIOT act has explicitly given law enforcement the ability to quite literally enter your home and to 'investigate', without informing you, with extremely loose definitions of what to look for and why to look for it. Additionally, you need not have any suspicion upon you to be a terrorist, this applies to any suspect in any crime at any time.

Perhaps you feel that cops wandering around your personal space on a bug hunt isn't an abrogation of your rights.

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Theo

and before the bombing they were your fine alliances. Hypocritic malaka. Step on a bomb. I'm thursthy for your brave blood.

TheSaint

I think in general terrorism does not work. The fears of creeping govt constrol is overblown, all that stuff was done during WWII and dropped just as fast when the risk passed.

Other than a few spanish pussies the english speaking world has shown time and time again that terrorism acts merely serve to pull us together, it rarely serves the objective of the suicide bomber but actually has the opposite effect.

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rickholio

Excellent! When will you be going to protect and serve? I'm sure a chem specialist will be of high use when those WMDs are found!

Look somewhere north, south, east and west of baghdad.

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cambaby

Already did the first Gulf War bub, and before I hear any comments about finishing the job its because people like you swayed our former president into pulling out instead of knocking off Saddam.

rickholio

Terrorism depends on the massive over-reaction of the people attacked to have any use. The odds of being harmed by a terrorist attack is substantially less than being harmed by a dog attack, for instance, yet countless hours of talking heads are devoted to every attack, feeding terrorists EXACTLY what they need... international notoriety and attention focused on their political cause. Nothing recruits new members and brings in the donations like a well-promoted track record of success.

If I had to make one suggestion that I believe would help the situation, at least with the 'spillover effect' which is far in excess of the actual damage done caused by the attacks, it would be to treat these events with the due amount of attention: tragic criminal acts that should be dealt with by an international police-style investigation rather than massive carpet bombing of countries that were originally unrelated to terrorist organizations.

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rickholio

I supported the first gulf war because it was a clear case of transnational agressive acts that needed a slapdown. Don't talk like you know me 'bub', you have no fucking clue.

Additionally, even if 'people like me' swayed your former president into pulling out, it was ultimately his decision. Don't blame others for the perceived failures of your paragons of virtue.

Personally, I think the senior Bush saw the flypaper effect (on US troops, not on terrorists) and wanted none of it. He, at least, was mature enough to see what clusterfucks the vietnam and soviet afghanistan campaigns were and had no desire to repeat them. The lessor bush apparently didn't learn that lesson, even when counseled by his father... trusting the voices in his head (let's charitably call it "god talking to him") rather than the wisdom of his progenitors.

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Rochard

Wow. That's stunning. No idea who you really are but I agree with every word you just wrote.

The terrorist attacks have nothing to do with Iraq. 9/11 happened before we invaded Iraq, as well as other attacks. They attack Western nations because we are not Muslim or Islamic. They feel we do not have the right to exist. A small handful of people believe they are the "chosen race" and that no other peoples should be allowed to exist. This line of thinking when out when the Nazi "Master Race" was defeated in the 1940's.

I'm not a Nazi, not Jewish, and I surely didn't vote for Bush. I'm also married to a woman of Middle Eastern descent who still has family there.

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jjjay

3 posts and straight to ignore. congrats.

Grapesoda

very simple really . . . cut their fucking nuts and cocks off, wrap the nuts and cocks in bacon then throw them in to a pit . . . next shave the fucking dickwads beard off, cut off his hands, stick them in his ass. pull out his tounge placing into a pig's ass and the shoot the stupid fuck in the head . .. that would end arab bs in no time

jjjay

your mother should have aborted

Code_Havoc

That's just fuckin wierd.

rickholio

Perhaps if the WH finally releases those pictures from Abu Ghraib, we'll find out if that's been done already. Doesn't seem to be helping matters much thus far, if so.

Therein lies the problem with 'carpet killing all brown people'. Every dead iraqi breeds 2 or 3 extremists. If some foreign dickhead dropped a bomb on my kid or brother or parents, I'd be out for blood and so would you (unless you're some pathetic pussy). THAT'S why terrorism is a hydra unless approached carefully.

You won't grow any more extremists if you take out TERRORISTS... hell, the population might even give you some grudging support. But when you cluster bomb weddings, take pictures of beating people to death in saddam's old torture rooms, destroy power and water infrastructure and be unable to restore it, raid peoples houses in the middle of the night and humiliate the occupants in front of their family and neighbors, (allegedly) hold women/children hostage in order to get at the men, etc etc... well, it's no great surprise you're not making friends and influencing people. Would you want to help people who invaded your country and did that?

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Grapesoda

well the reason they do the stuff they do is 'cause the dudes think they're getting a free ride in the 'afterlife' so take a way the free ride would be my plan . . . use cruel stupidity to fight cruel stupidity

Code_Havoc

They only get that 'free ride' if they die killing infadels.. Just one shot to the head without them killing you and their free ride is gone.

Grapesoda

how about this: culture is the mechanism by which a society functions. Arab society does not function. 100 billion trillion million dollars have gone into the middle east in the last 75 years. they can't even build a fucking toaster. they can't solve any problems. they can't do a fucking thing except stick dynamite in their ass and wander into the mall. I say we walk away and let them eat sand and fuck off . . . just my personal opinion

Grapesoda

what code do you write?

Code_Havoc

Ok, on that one I'm going to have to agree with you now.

Icon

I'm confused. What the fuck is a terrorist? Is it people who are at war? Or are those insurgents? Are abortion clinic bombers terrorists? is Greenpeace a terrorist group? How about those guys...those founding fathers? Or Christopher Columbus slaughtering the Arawaks and Caribs? is he and his crew terrorists? Or are terrorists people who plant bombs in crowded public areas like cowards? Chechnyans (sp?) - they are terrorists? Are terrorists people from countries with no "democracy"? Or do we just go with whatever whimsical term the media deems fit?

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theking

Have you overlooked that reasonable cause is required in both the fourth admendment and the section of the Patriot Act? In either case if there is reasonable cause to think that someone is engaged in either criminal activity or "terrorist" activity I wan them investigated...end of story.

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Gunni

What makes you think they wouldn't have been elected?

Specially since you don't live in Spain and have no idea what is going on here...

rickholio

Funny, I seem to recall that the entire basis of modern mathematics sources from 'arab society'. Words like 'zero', and 'azimuth' and such aren't anglosaxon in origin, y'know.

I guess you don't need to know how to build a toaster to run a couple international news organizations, either. Apparently al-Jazeera is operated by people who also let the blinking 12:00's stay on their VCRs.

... and somehow, I think there's a constructive middle ground between 'stuff their tongues up a pig's ass' and 'let's all just fuck off'. It'll obviously be left to people who see the world in color, rather than black and white, to work on a real solution.

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Grapesoda

I would say the 'press' they terrorize the hell out of us for ratings. most of this bullshit would go ways with out an audience. you ever see a suicide bombing video?

they set them up. the camera is in place about 1 hr before the bomb, then they cut the whole vid together with music so it looks like an MTV clip and then release it to the press. total BS. total serial killers if ya ask me. read my solution above

Code_Havoc

The definition of a 'terrorist' is some one that tries to strike fear (or terror) into people. You do not have to actually kill people to be a terrorist, nor do you (though most of the world may disagree cause of being narrowminded) have to be arab or islamic to be a terrorist. And yes, by the current definitions most people use the Founding Fathers could be construde as terrorists. The reason they arent? They didn't blow up any buildings with people in them. They are, by definition, rebels. They didn't like their leader and struck back, and faught to break free. It's a fine line that is probably more personal believes and opinion than anything else.

Grapesoda

[QUOTE=rickholio]Funny, I seem to recall that the entire basis of modern mathematics sources from 'arab society'. Words like 'zero', and 'azimuth' and such aren't anglosaxon in origin, y'know.

*** wrong the arab lifted the 'o' from the hindus

I guess you don't need to know how to build a toaster to run a couple international news organizations, either. Apparently al-Jazeera is operated by people who also let the blinking 12:00's stay on their VCRs.

*** I could set up coke smuggling ring from south America. so could you. I could not build the empire state building. a criminal enterprise is not the same this as an actual enterprise. it is much easer to destroy then it is to build

... and somehow, I think there's a constructive middle ground between 'stuff their tongues up a pig's ass' and 'let's all just fuck off'. It'll obviously be left to people who see the world in color, rather than black and white, to work on a real solution.[

**** there is a reason I'm a photographer and not a politician however a 'walk away' would be a real good start to solving the problem. their leadership has stolen all the money and now points the finger at the USA and the west in general so they don't get it in the ass .. . and the arab leadership does finance the terrorism. every plot has a Saudi in the mix somewhere, our real good buddies, the Saudis. .

/QUOTE]

rickholio

Where 'reasonable cause' is, by the admission of the authors of the law itself, and extremely loose and can be ipso facto justified by whatever 'evidence' is collected.

Additionally, the federal government already HAD the ability to investigate terrorists under the Foreign Intelligence Surveilance Act. The USA PATRIOT extended that to any person, suspect of any crime, at any time, with minimal requirements. Everyday citizens can now be treated with the same disregard as foreign nationals with respects to search and seizure.

And if that isn't enough, how about section 215? The FBI can use Section 215 to demand ?any tangible thing,? including books, letters, diaries, library records, medical and psychiatric records, financial information, membership lists of religious institutions, and even -- as Attorney General Ashcroft himself conceded in testimony before Congress -- genetic information. Again, this is based on the loosest of requirements, with no requirement to disclose, and again not limited to people under investigation for terrorist ties.

How can you reasonably argue that rights have not be diminished by this terrible peice of legislature ram-rodded through by ashcroft on a 7 day schedule?

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theking

I to agree with much of what he posted...and you are correct about the terroist attacks have nothing to do with Iraq. The US and other allies have been under attack at least since 1983.

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Icon

I C your point to an extent - But American(13 colonies) ships fired on British vessels, attempted to invade what is now Canada, .....

Isn't a rebel more like an "Insurgent"? Trying to repell invading forces?

BUSH INC. strikes sheer terror everytime they open their mouth - Terrorists?

I know this seems like semantics, but what things are labelled indicates how they are percieved.

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