DVTimes

Do you think that the new 2257 will in fact be enforceable?

I suspect that as the 2257 law is over the top and in truth is going to catch many USA webmasters out. As these cases go to court I suspect webmasters will simply lie, such as saying that the content was shot in 1980 and so the 2257 law does not apply to them.

I would also think that agencies that have been set up to protect children will be mad as hell, as its clear that sites will move from the USA which means that unlike at the moment people are getting ID's for models, soon they may not bother. As such it increases the risk of under aged models being shot.

I also suspect clever lawyers will find loopholes in the 2257 laws.

It will also be expensive for the FBI to prosecute people.

Also I do not think that the public in the USA will give big support to the 2257 law.

It will also be daft that non USA webmasters will be able to almost do what they want, yet USA webmasters will not.

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DVTimes

I also think that video producers are going to have problems as many will have non USA girls in there films.

I suspect also some adult website owners will simply tempory put there sites on hold, by putting up a single webpage such as 'site being updated' and see what happens to others.

I also suspect that it will be the small site owners that will be targeted first as it will be easer to prosecute them rather than the big firms who can afford legal fees.

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DWB

I think they will for a little while.

xxxice

All text again very soon

Jace

cause that would work, considering that most active porn stars are 20-25, so that would make them, what, 6 years old?

fireorange

They only need to put 10 webmasters in jail for non-compliance for 10,000 webmasters to leave and go work at

DVTimes

No.

All you do is make up a name for the model, and say you shot her in 1980. Its up to the FBI or whoever to prove otherwise.

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pornguy

Got to be craeful claining the 80's thing.

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Jace

haha, cause that is something you REALLY wanna play with..i think they call that..um...something like...FIRE

DVTimes

If you say content was shot in 1980, then its down to the FBI to prove otherwise. This will not be easy to do.

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Frank The Tank

no it wont be

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Relish XXX

The FBI cant extradite everyone to the US. Shit all there will be is plane loads of webmasters coming over every day.

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DVTimes

I am from the UK, so in truth its not a problem to me.

But if I had a call from the FBI and I did not have the correct paperwork, I would think, what have I to loose. Sod it, say I shot it in 1985, and let them prove otherwise.

If they managed it, I would simply say I got confused which model it was.

This is what I mean, its not easy to prosecute if you play silly buggers with them. After all its a stupid law. I would play stupid games.

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StuartD

lying and crap won't help. Just get you into more trouble.

My guesstimate would be that we wouldn't hear anything until the DOJ goes after it's first big dog and that big dog would turn around and fight it out in court citing that the new regulations are too vague.

That's when things would get cleared up real fast and the hammer would fall immediately after that.

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DVTimes

USA law has nothing to do with me (as I am in the UK).


We (in the UK) have the data protection act. Thus I cannot give out any models details.

This law may even apply to all EU partners.

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Loki

Dont forget the fact that if you DO comply your breaking up to four diff privacy laws from 1998-2005

-Loki-

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DVTimes

I think its unworkable as this law will only apply to those in the USA. As such I am sure that this would be classed as unfair competition from the rest of the world.

I mean to say, is it really going to be law that if you are a USA webmaster you have to have all sorts of records, yet webmasters in other countries will be able to do what they want?

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DVTimes

It looks like non USA webmasters are going to make big bucks with all these USA webmasters start to close down.

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Scootermuze

It isn't about protecting children like they say it is..

It's about giving them the power to harrass under the guise of child protection to discourage folks in the industry...

They know very well that the majority of cp producers and distributors don't advertise on websites..

StuartD

No, I think other nations are watching and learning as I'm sure most would like to put a stop to CP as well, and will eventually adapt their own rules.

No 2 nations have the exact same laws and therefore "unfair competition from the rest of the world" is kind of a moot point. As was stated in another thread, one nations allows beastiality, that doesn't mean that it's not fair that the rest can't too.

And the new law does focus on the US, but it's a law that is intended for "the greater good" or at least, they'd have you believe. So if your domain is registered in the US, if you do processing in the US, if you host in the US or you so much as do business with someone in the US.... you WILL be affected by this.

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DVTimes

That's true.

And as I have said, I think it does more harm as websites will just move from the USA and so will not bother with any laws at all.

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DVTimes

No.

It does not affect me, as the Data Protection Act can not be changed.

In fact in the UK we can shoot porn without the need of ANY id needed or even model release.

I am one of the few photographers that not only gets a model release but two forms of ID from the models.

Non of my sites are USA hosted.

This law in truth only affects USA webmasters. I do not see why non USA webmasters who do not host in the USA will even be bothered. USA law can only apply to the USA, and as much as the USA would like to rule the rest of the world, as yet it does not. As such in truth, if your in the USA, your FUCKED. If your not in the USA and do not host in the USA, your not going to give a dam, and are going to enjoy making more cash as those USA sites start to close.

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Major (Tom)

i bet there will be tons of arrests and very few if any convictions.
remember they can bust you for a clerical error. I doint see anyone in their right mind sentencing you for a clerical error. So i do see arrests for clerical errors but no convictions.
Duke

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BigasMoe

Stupid is as Stupid does, just ask Martha Stewart! Not being from the States you have no clue as to the extent the FBI will probe your shit and your background. If need be, they call tell you the last time you took a shit at a public restroom in the 80's. Now as far as what webmaster are gonna do, I think they'll wait it out on the court decisions as mentioned but I think it will take awhile before anyone will be hearing fomr the FBI. Just think of the # of webmaster they are in this country that are getting hit by 2257 now.

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DVTimes

If the USA government was really concerned about protecting children, all it needs to do is state that any models working in the USA must register there details with a government model agency.

They would then get a model ID card, with a model ID number on it.

This would then be handed to the photographer (along with other model ID). This could be checked with ease by a simply call to the agency.

Thus the onus would be on the model to prove her age rather than the webmaster or photographer.

Lets be honest, how hard would it be for a dishonest webmaster to fake some if not all the models IDs at the moment? Unless the FBI or whoever is going to spend its time tracing each model to confirm there details, its going to be a real pain.

From an outsider, the new law is just nonsense. There are going to be lots of loopholes. One which I have said is that some webmasters will just say all models were shot in 1980, and were shot in (for example) Spain. it will then be such a pain to prove otherwise that its going to cost a lot of money, and time.

if I was a tax payer in the USA I would be mad as hell to think that money is wasted in such a silly way.

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TheDoc

I'm sure parts of the law will get injunctions.

You can't lie about content being produced in 1980 compared to 2000. It's easy to see a quality difference. And it doesn't mater anyway; if you REPRODUCE it after 1995 you need the ID anyway. It doesn?t mater much anyway, the only way we could use foreign content is if it was produced in that country and that model is from that country. If you don?t give the US company the ID, it just means you lose the business and they will go some place that will.

You won't find many loopholes, damn sure not any good ones.

You can?t have a national register for models, that?s about the largest violation of every right you could ever ask for. It would kill the industry and many wouldn?t do it.

This isn't the FBI, it's a DOJ taskforce.

I'm able to comply, with ease.. Just some work to get it all done. I think most webmasters are this way, even if you go full non-nude, it isn't going to change things. If US based programs only give out non-nude to all webmasters, I guess everyone will be on the same playing field. It?s stupid enough that programs are giving out ID?s anyway, it?s a violation of our own privacy act.

UK and Canada have extradition treaties, so good luck with not getting in trouble. You think if the DOJ calls your local GOV and says, hey we think this guy has CP that they won't react?

And this isn't going to kill the US porn business. MANY countries have very harsh porn laws and still do amazing business. Such as Germany, ZERO nudity/hardcore on the tours, must use a CC to view anything else. Business is going very strong for them. Even the UK has hash porn laws compared to the US when it comes to DVD production and distributing and that sure didn?t kill the business in the UK.

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DVTimes

Do not be so dammed stupid.

The FBI have no powers in the UK with USA law.

Next your going to tell me that I will be having my head cut off as that's the law for doing porn in another country.

I fear you over estimate the power the FBI has.

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DVTimes

How am I breaking USA law? I am not in the USA and I do not host on USA servers. As such I cannot break this law. It only applys to those in the USA.

I am in the UK. We have our own laws.

Yes you are right about UK laws on DVD porn in the UK. But as far as UK DVD porn goes, it is dead as DVD porn (R18) can only be sold in sex shops which there are only a few off.

Untill about 6 years ago, porn was not legal, but in truth was sold all over (vhs copies).

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BigasMoe

No I don't over estimate the power of the FBI. You not being from the States, underestimates the FBI. ALthough you don't have much to worry about, which is all fine and dandy. Do you really think it's all that easy to play silly buggers with the FBI?

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TheDoc

If you are doing business with an american company, then you need to comply, to some level. Even if it's linking to my 2257 page.

If you sell content to a US company, you need to give the ID's up, or you won't be doing business with US companies.

You may want comply on US owned/bought content. What if the model was under age but you didn't know it? Now your ass is in trouble, the DOJ won't come to your house, your own gov authorities will when the DOJ reports you to them.

Yeah, if you live in another country, host in another country, you don't have to have ID's, put them online, or even have a 2257 page. No arguments about that. At the same time, US companies don't have to do business with you.

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DVTimes

Its not taken of in truth.

I know many people who make DVD porn, and non make much from it.

The reason for this is that R18 porn must be sold in licensed sex shops. There are probably 150 of these shops (maybe more now).

They can buy the DVD's cheap (say £4) simply as there is so few who can buy them. In truth a monopoly. They then can sell them for £30 or more. They then buy them back from people and re-sell them.

The makers make not much. After the cost of the models, you have to pay well over £1000 to put it through the film sensors. Then you have the cost of reproduction.

Most make the money from selling soft cut versions to the starlight channels.

Many were hoping that the starlight channels were going to be allowed to show R18 films, as some were going to sell there full stock to them, but in the last month this was turned down.

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TheDoc

Most people don't make much from a single DVD, even in the United States. It's the alternative ways that help make the bank, and mass production/sales of a DVD series. The point was, it's very regulated and some people still make damn good money, at all levels of the production, sales, etc. It was was also just an example of regulations and a business that still thrives.

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DVTimes

The FBI was (unless I am mistaken) to cover the states, as police did not have the authorities to cross state lines.

As such the FBI has only power in the USA.

The CIA has international power. Its powers cover international Law.

If any citizen was taken from the UK by the FBI it would create huge diplomatic problems.

Do not forget the USA wanted someone only a few months ago for terrorism. The UK government has refused to hand him over.

Its not easy to pluck one of our citizens, as we are well protected.

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StuartD

What part of "DOJ task force" was not understood? You're too hung up on the FBI which will have very little to do with the enforcement of the new 2257 regulations.

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TheDoc

Good point, but the US sure did make this guys life a living hell, even if he didn't get exported to the US. That is the point of the FBI.. hehe.

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DVTimes

In the UK only the shops make the money.

I have been told by some of the main porn makers (the ones who are well known) that they are giving up, as its too much hassle for too little money.

In the UK you must physically go into the shop to buy porn DVDs.

Most people do not even know that porn in the uk is now legal (as the government never told anyone).

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ronaldo

That's GREAT in theory, but remember that the original 2257 came into place because of Traci Lords and her GOVERNMENT ISSUED ID. They were more at fault than ANYONE who shot her.

The government doesn't want to take ANY responsibility for that happening again, including a government controlled modelling agency.

When they found they couldn't prosecute anyone for shooting underage models in our industry under the old 2257, because NOONE legitimate would knowingly do so, they had to come up with a new way to control our industry.

Hence the NEW 2257.

DVTimes

OK.

Must admit I do not know much about the DOJ. But I cannot see them have any more power outside the USA than the FBI.

This is a USA law.

In the UK you can have sex at 16, and drink at 18. In the USA I know its much older. You will be saying next that all 16 year olds in the UK will be sent over to the USA for having sex under 18.

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mardigras

People think the Patriot act is unconstitutional. It's enforced anytime there is a need.That's possibly fine and good... as long as they are the only person using such content exclusively.Agencies set up to "protect children" for the most part have the goal of "preventing adults". I suspect lawyers most people can afford have little internet expertise.How much is spent presently sending people to jail for small amounts of marijuana. As long as the TPTB is "right" the price doesn't matter.The "public" has no idea what 2257 is, nor do they care Out of sight out of mind. Not their problem as long as they can tout some statistics to constituencies.

Next?

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aico

Honestly, I think it will take a couple of cases and then the Gov't will be so fucking overwhelmed with all the paperwork and man hours required to actually go thru it all and verify it all, they won't have the money nor manpower to get the job done.

Can you imagine if they ask a site like Cumfiesta for all it's documentation? I would die laughing when the fucking truck drops all that paper work off on some poor shmucks desk...

"Here you go asshole, Multiple IDs of every girl we every shot, plus all the releases, etc, etc, etc..."

DVTimes

What drivel.

The new law has been set up to make life a pain for USA webmasters/porn makers.

Have you never looked at the history of porn in the USA and the law?

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DVTimes

And they will need to trace each model to make sure the ID is not fake.

That will be fun, especially if she has moved, and you have to find her new address.

What if she has given up modelling and denies ever doing it (say she is now a teacher).

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mardigras

And a prosecutor would never go through all that paperwork if they really wanted a conviction.

Took Tom Sneddon over a decade to get Michael Jackson. I bet he would have spent another decade and probably will if for some reason he failed this time. You guys that want to blow off the capabilities and desires of the law fail to take into consideration the activism factor.

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Babagirls

either thats going to happen OR...

thats gonna happen.

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DVTimes

You know if I was a webmaster in the USA I would find a friend who lives outside the USA, then put everything in his name. Then simply get him to send you a check each month for whatever profit the site has made.

This way, you are not responsible.

Make life easy for yourself.

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mardigras

It's apparent.Ask IndyMedia in London who seized a whole network's servers because of the suspected activities of a couple of "terror suspects".

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FleshJoe2005

HAHA...

Lets say you're lazy or simply dont want to publish your home address -- you're a part time webmaster, right? -- so lets say you have FTVgirls content, lets say for sake's argument you have a Lia gallery. OK now the feds pull you before a judge and you claim oh Lia? I shot her in 1980.. OK the fed agent goes to the judge's computer and they pull up Lia's website and she says she's 19 now (a lie but never mind that). OK so whats the result? Not only you end up in the slammer for not complying with the 2257 regs, you also get a few added charges like lying under oath (2 years), obstruction of justice (3 years), evidence tampering (2-3 years), wire fraud (5 years), and so on and on and on...

I wouldnt try that if I were you.

mardigras

Sounds more impressive on the news and has more effect if you can say 1000 porn slingers were shut down (even if in truth they were a couple sales a month guys) than to take down a single one the size of The Hun.

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DVTimes

I think most of you have not thought about this too much. The ones who are going to have BIG problems are the DVD porn firms. Many will have shot non USA models, and those USA models they have shot, they may not have the correct paperwork for.

Unlike a webmaster who can simply take the model of the site, what do porn DVD makers do when they have made several thousand copies and are in the shops world wide.

Unless they remove these from the shops, they will (unless I have read it wrong) be breaking the law.

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L-Pink

Trust me Judge, I shot this digital content in 1980.

Idea: Develop a "add 1980's bush" feature to Photoshop .....