You think so?

http://www.separationalberta.com/
http://www.wips.ca/

Correction: I don't anymore ....

Still no answer to why Canada cares so much for Quebec ... LOL

I'm positive :)
He just happened to bring together the 300 people that feel that way...
hahaha.. not exactly a large movement!

Indeed, this kind of common sense is offensive to a separatist.

but well said.

Well, they actually "LOOOOOOVE QUEBEC" only when they get free/cheap tickey flights. Then they love us.. Between that, it's : "Fucking french fags, whining all the time.. Just go".

Canada cares about Canada, of which Quebec is a part of. And there are 2 or 3 million people in that provice that are comprised of:

Native Canadians/1st nations
English-origin Canadians
French-Canadians who do not support the separatist movement
People of various other nationalities

Plus, the land itself is part of Canada.


Ask yourself this question: If one of the US states were to try to separate, why would the USA want to stop it? Let's say 49% of the people of Georgia decide they've had enough and want to start their own country, preserve their "Southern heritage and culture"...... would they be allowed to form a new country? Think about it.

If the whining would stop, no one would be saying that.

Oh it will. Trust me. Thanks to the Liberals. :thumbsup

And that pretty much brings this discussion to a close, for me at least.

The rest of you can continue jabbering about 3rd referendums and other myths.

Meanwhile the French commnunity of St. Boniface, MB, while smack in the middle of "english-speaking Canada" thrives and preserves it's Francophone heritage quite nicely... which serves to blow part of the separatist movement's argument right out of the water.

oh shit
i jump in
I'm a separatist and pround to be
you want reason for Quebec to leave Canada ?

this will be a long post, but fucking well documented

The major prior event is the referendum of 1980 and the analogies people make with it. Nevertheless, we should recall that history does not repeat itself exactly. The Canadian political scene has changed significantly since the last Quebec referendum. The separatist 1 Bloc Québécois now holds two thirds of the Quebec seats in Ottawa so the Ottawa Liberals no longer occupy the moral high ground of speaking for Quebec. At the same time, the BQ feeds back continuous streams of negative images of federalism into the Quebec collective psyche. In addition, Canada has suffered the double defeats of the Meech and Charlottetown constitutional accords, the first of which many Quebecers took as a personal rejection by the rest of Canada.


----

Where does the Québec sovereignty project come from?

Since the birth of Canada in 1867, there have always been supporters of independence who thought Québec was not just another province within the Canadian borders, but rather constituted a nation and should become a country. Negotiations in the 1960's to amend Canada's Constitution in order to recognize Québec as one of the founding nations and to give it the necessary powers to develop itself within Canada failed. These failures occurred even when negotiations were conducted by Québec federalist governments in favour of Québec staying within Canada. Elected in 1976, the Parti Québécois government held a referendum on sovereignty in 1980, obtaining 40.6% support. In 1982, Canada modified its Constitution without National Assembly's and the Québec government's assent. To this day, no Québec political party has accepted to adhere to this Constitution. In 1994, the Parti Québécois regained power and in 1995 held another referendum, where the support for sovereignty climbed to 49.4%. On November 30th, 1998, the Parti Québécois was re-elected and once again formed the government.


--
Why does the Parti Québécois still want Québec to achieve sovereignty ?

Since the October 1995 referendum, the governments of Canada have ignored the will of the people of Québec to reform Canadian federalism. The federal government in Ottawa decided to maintain the status quo, accentuating problems which have existed for the last forty years. Furthermore, this government has multiplied attacks against Québec and continues to intervene in its areas of its exclusive jurisdiction, which causes severe problems in the planning of public services. It has also attempted to intimidate the Québec population by threatening not to recognize any future referendum result, notwithstanding the fact that Québec's democratic traditions are flawless and that its legislation on the financing of political parties and referendums are exemplary.
----

another good reason ?
in Quebec, we would have legalised marijuana, gay marriage and a couple things like that 20 years ago... we are tired that a bunch of farmboy from Jesusland block those project

humm i will post more later

50...........

You think so?

Thanks to the AdScam and the Gomery Commision, we know now why and we know the truth.

According to Benoit Corbeil, ex-liberal director. Corbeil is saying that Jacques Parizeau was right. The "YES" lost because of money and ethnic votes.

http://www.cyberpresse.ca/actualites...05,1002231.php

Facts (The "NO" won by a majority of only 50 000 votes) :

- The liberals accelerated the canadian citizenship process for thousands of immigrants in Quebec. Their strategy was simple, everyone involved in the process were working for the Liberals.

- When Jean Chretien spoke to the nation, it was a different message in english and french, the english version contained a special message for the immigrants.

- The "WE LOVE YOU RALLY" was extremely costly and it was evident that it was violating the "election" law in Quebec.

Spare me, I've heard it all.

Next.

# 30 Oct 1995: The Quebec referendum on independence failed by 1% on a huge 94% turnout; it won 60% of the French-speakers' vote.
# 1994: During Quebec's elections, the separatist party PQ (Parti Québéquois) wins a majority in the province Quebec.
# 1993: The Bloc Québéquois of Lucien Bouchard succeeds with a second position in federal elections.
# 1982: New Federal Constitution adopted against Quebec's wish to acknowledge its distinctiveness.

?? What are you trying to prove with those facts? It's nothing new.

I knew it! Time to get my stalking mask out... :winkwink:

EXACTLY and most DEFINITLY

As home to the only French-speaking society in North America, Québec is totally distinct from the rest of the continent - so distinct, in fact, that its political elite have been obsessed with the politics of secession for the last forty years. The genesis of Québec's potential political separation from its English-speaking neighbours tracks back to France's ceding of the colony to Britain after the Conquest of 1759. At first this transfer saw little change in the life of most Québécois. Permitted to maintain their language and religion, they stayed under the control of the Catholic Church, whose domination of rural society - evident in the huge churches of Québec's tiny villages - resulted in an economically and educationally deprived subclass whose main contribution was huge families. It was these huge families, though, that ensured French-speakers would continue to dominate the province demographically - a political move termed the revanche du berceau (revenge of the cradle).

The creation of Lower and Upper Canada in 1791 emphasized the inequalities between anglophones and francophones, as the French-speaking majority in Lower Canada were ruled by the so-called Château Clique - an assembly of francophone priests and seigneurs who had to answer to a British governor and council appointed in London. Rebellions against this hierarchy by the French Patriotes in 1837 led to an investigation by Lord Durham who concluded that English and French relations were akin to "two nations warring within the bosom of a single state". His prescription for peace was immersing French-Canadians in the English culture of North America, and the subsequent establishment of the Province of Canada in 1840 can be seen as a deliberate attempt to marginalize francophone opinion within an English-speaking state.

French-Canadians remained insulated from the economic mainstream until twentieth-century industrialization , financed and run by the better-educated anglophones, led to a mass francophone migration to the cities. Here, a French-speaking middle class soon began to articulate the grievances of the workforce and to criticize the suffocating effect the Church was having on francophone opportunity. The shake-up of Québec society finally came about with the so-called Quiet Revolution in the 1960s, spurred by the provincial government under the leadership of Jean Lesage and his Liberal Party of Québec. The provincial government took control of welfare, health and education away from the Church and, under the slogan " Maîtres chez-nous " (Masters of our own house), established state-owned industries that reversed anglophone financial domination by encouraging the development of a francophone entrepreneurial and business class.

In order to implement these fiscal policies, Québec needed to administer its own taxes, and the provincial Liberals, despite being staunchly federalist, were constantly at loggerheads with Ottawa. Encouraged and influenced by other nationalist struggles, Québécois' desire for cultural recognition and political power intensified and reached a violent peak in 1970 with the terrorist actions of the largely unpopular Front de Libération du Québec (FLQ) in Montréal. The kidnapping of Cabinet Minster Pierre Laporte and British diplomat James Cross, with Laporte winding up dead in the trunk of a car, led then-Prime Minister Pierre Elliott Trudeau to enact the War Measures Act and send Canadian troops into the streets of Montréal. Six years later a massive reaction against the ruling provincial Liberals brought the separatist Parti Québécois (PQ) to power in Montréal. Led by René Lévesque, the Parti Québécois accelerated the process of social change with the Charte de la langue française , better known as Bill 101 , which established French as the province's official language. With French dominant in the workplace and the classroom, Québécois thought they had got as close as possible to cultural and social independence. Still reeling from the terrorist activities of the FLQ and scared that Lévesque's ultimate objective of separatism would leave Québec economically adrift, the 6.5-million population voted 60:40 against sovereignty in a 1980 referendum.

Having made the promise that voting against separation meant voting for a "new Canada", Trudeau set about repatriating the country's Constitution in the autumn of 1981. Québec was prepared to contest the agreement with the support of other provincial leaders, but was spectacularly denied the opportunity to do so when Trudeau called a late-night meeting on the issue and did not invite Lévesque to the table. "The night of the long knives", as the event became known, wound up imposing a Constitution on the province that placed its language rights in jeopardy and removed its veto power over constitutional amendments. Accordingly, the provincial government refused to sign it - and hasn't to this day.

The Constitution's failure to include Québec became a lingering source of ire, which the beau risque (beautiful risk) equally failed to extinguish. A good-faith alliance between Québécois, the Liberal Party of Québec under Robert Bourassa, and the federal Progressive-Conservatives under Brian Mulroney, the beau risque produced the Meech Lake Accord in 1990. Inspired by Mulroney's talk of bringing Québec back into the Canadian fold with "honour and enthusiasm", the accord sought to recognize Québec's status as a "distinct society" and give it the power to opt out of federal legislation it didn't like - including the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms, the Canadian equivalent of the American Bill of Rights. The talks collapsed on Québec's national holiday, la Fête St-Jean-Baptiste, and tens of thousands of Québécois took to the streets to demonstrate their frustration. The failure also prompted Lucien Bouchard, one of Mulroney's cabinet ministers and primary promoter of the agreement to English Canada, to resign from the Progressive-Conservative Party and form a new sovereignist federal party, the Bloc Québécois . In desperation, the Liberal leader Robert Bourassa hastily threw together a constitutional agreement, the Charlottetown Accord , that attempted not only to satisfy Québec, but the rest of Canada, and the aboriginal peoples as well. The accord's scope was so enormous that it failed on all points and was rejected by Québec and several other provinces in a Canada-wide referendum in 1992.

In October 1993, Québec's displeasure with federalism was evident in the election of Lucien Bouchard's Bloc Québécois to the ironic status of Her Majesty's Official Opposition in Ottawa. The cause received added support in 1994 when the Parti Québécois was returned to provincial power after vowing to hold a province-wide referendum on separation from Canada. The referendum was held a year later and the vote was so close - the province opted to remain a part of Canada by a margin of under one percent (50.6:49.4) - that calls immediately arose for a third referendum (prompting pundits to refer to the process as the "neverendum").

In 1996, Bouchard left federal politics to take the leadership of the PQ, determined to become the leader of a new country and promising to proceed with the separation process and work on the economy. Another step towards constitutional reform was taken in September 1997, when nine of Canada's ten provincial premiers endorsed the Calgary Declaration stating that Québec's unique character should be recognized - a shift from the "distinct society" recognition proposal in the failed Meech Lake and Charlottetown constitutional reform packages. Bouchard, the only premier not in attendance at the meeting, took the new term as "an insult", and the declaration's intentions never really got off the ground. Instead, the federal Liberals enacted the Clarity Act in 1999 - a sharp departure from their previous kowtowing tactics, as the act laid out the requirements Québec needed to meet to secede from Canada. While it infuriated leaders of the sovereignist movement, it also met with sharp criticism from members of the federalist camp who were convinced it would ignite sovereignist fire and result in a definitive Yes vote. Their fears didn't come to pass, however; in a surprising turn of the popular vote, the 2000 federal elections saw the federal Liberals win more in Québec than the Bloc Québécois.

An even greater shock was Bouchard's sudden resignation as Premier of Québec in January 2001, leaving the PQ with no obvious successor that matched his powers of oratory or charisma. Without Bouchard, there is little hope of achieving the dream of a sovereign Québec in the near future - if ever. Whoever the party chooses as his replacement will have to contend with the current political climate that suggests Québécois are tired of the political wrangling and would rather see a new deal that keeps them in Canada. After suffering through the long recession due, in large part, to the political battles that have dominated Québec for the last two decades, Québécois have a vested interest in maintaining the momentum of economic growth the province is currently experiencing. And, for the time being, they appear more interested in maintaining political peace than encouraging old fights


But thank to the liberals and those crooks, they just give to the Quebec 200 millions of good reasons to quit this (i cant even call this a country)...

Then think of it this way..
Even if the 'Yes' vote was 51%, that would still make 49% unhappy with it...
And now the MAJOR change and economic turmoil that would pretty much rend Quebec apart after that, really wouldn't be worth it..
Economically, what arguments can you give, that point towards a stronger Quebec?

First off, they lose Canada's trade advantage, becoming 'just another small exporter'
Second, they assume massive costs in government restructuring, currency creation, armed forces, etc
Third, the complete instability will furthur hamper trade negotiations with other countries.. And all exports would have to leave through Canada...
Many international companies WOULD pull their headquarters out of Montreal, just fearing change... (plus, the majority of their international business IS in English)

long story short.. separation is economic suicide, regardless of proposed cultural benefits....

Considering that the Cree and Inuit occupy 2/3's of Quebec land, including the James Bay area, separation is not a smart financial choice.

"This, of course, is no merely academic debate. In October 1995, the Cree of northern Quebec held a referendum, in which 96.3 per cent voted not to join an independent Quebec. More recently, the councils of some 40, predominantly English-speaking, municipalities have voted in favor of "Staying Canadian" in the event of Quebec separation."

In the Mid 90's 100's of Corp's fled Quebec due to the possibility of the province becoming a Sovereign Nation. This includes The Bank of Montreal which now has it's Corporate Offices and Exec's in Toronto. How much more money does Quebec have to lose before they realize that it is financial doom to separate from the rest of Canada?

# 1982: New Federal Constitution adopted against Quebec's wish to acknowledge its distinctiveness.

this fact

all the other province told us to GFY and some ppl still want to leave with them

ive nothing against english canadians, but fact is Quebec ppl think different, speak different and have nothing to win staying with Canada

I say if the PQ sets up another referendum vote we should clawback the equalization transfers for the year this time. It's only a small percentage of the overall financial costs Quebec will face if a yes vote won. Instead of spending money to fight them we can save some cash and show the Quebec voters some of the truth behind what their being asked to vote on.

To anyone in Quebec who thinks a yes vote by 2.5-3 million people in your province deals you the upper hand against the 2.5-3 million in the province of Quebec and 26-27 million people in the rest of Canada all I have to say is, Keep Smoking That Pipe, because your in for a rude awakening.


Anyone up for calling Quebec the balkans if the yes side was too win?

Best post in this thread so far.

Edit was probably nice ... but there is also a delete button .. would be way more appropriate ...

Your post says ... nothing.

FACT

Internationally, Quebec would also be widely recognized, as no country has
much to gain from refusing to accept the results of a democratic process.

sorry this problem is allready solved
you know what"La Paix des Braves" is ?

Hydro - power :1orglaugh wood, mines... Quebec has always been a massive exporter of " matieres premieres" ... Now we could at least transform it here to create jobs.

We already have a government, including taxation ... We can use US dollar as many other countries do ... Wouldn't hurt at all the canadian currency ....

Export to leave thru Canada... :1orglaugh sure, we have no airports or ports ... Don't forget, we own a part of ALL ports and airports of Canada ...

Your attitude is the type that makes be lean on the separation side. And when I change or forget, there is always another TED WINTERS to remind me .... JE ME SOUVIENS.

I hope they seperate, the 'quebec' dollar will be worthless and that exchange rate will be through the roof.

Don't worry, we already have the fiscal imbalance making us lose 50 millions a week to remind us. Of course, the Federal is getting richer and richer and denying the fiscal imbalance. That reason alone should be enough to leave the federation.

we dont need to have our own currency :P
seem like European country can use the same currency...
why not use the CAD or USD :P

Well the wood buisness took a huge hit with the US tax on imports. The industry is hurting, they just lost Gaspesia. Asbestos was a huge part of the economy and its being banned all over. We are loosing textile jobs to thrid world countries. Hydro is probably the best asset Quebec has.

Which countries use the US dollar as currency? I have no idea on this one. Knowing Quebec, they will want a dollar bill with Rene-Levesque picture on it, thats a guarantee. Quebecers arent all that friendly towards the US so this leads to believe me that they probably wont go to the US $$.

I have to agree that theres going to be a huge transition period and its gonna cost a shitload of cash. Border control, port control,armed forces, intelligence etc. Those are all federal agecies in federal buildings, I have no idea how they are going to negotiate stuff like that.

I doubt Canada will be all that friendly in having Quebec using their dollar after they shit all over them, thats just me though. Im not saying it cant happen. I'm sure theres going to be huge negotiations about Quebec using the CDN dollar and we all know how well Quebec and Ottawa get along

Whoa! I work with an Acadien. Ok, his French might be a little different. But his history started much the same way and he is not from Quebec. You can't forget the cajuns.

We all talk about this history and where it all began. But what about here and now. What can we do to rectify the current situation. We aren't living 200, 300, etc years ago. And english is used everywhere now. so it should not be viewed as an evil enemy.

I've offered what I think is my solution to the problem.

That is forced billingualism to the entire country. Each and every grade school age child has their days broken up to half and half days. In english Canada they start the morning with english and afternoons with french. In french canada it is the opposite.

See my point of view on doing this is because I am now living in france. When I arrived here my opinion was one of "no big deal, we are all french. I'm just getting closer to my cultural roots."

But after surviving pointed attacks on my dialect, coloquilisms and attitudes. It became very obvious that I was not French but Quebecoise. And more than that my attitudes and behaviours are a reflection of what it is to be Canadienne.

In very general terms... when compared with many other cultures, the people of Canada tend to "GET IT." The "IT" is undefinable but somehow Canadians/Canadiens/Canadiennes understand what "IT" is.

The French here don't "Get it." Much as the americans grasp different aspects of "it" but still miss the entire big picture. Therefore they don't always get "it."

Now if I sound really ridiculas, I'm sorry but you either "Get it" or you don't.

Ok, let the flames begin on my "IT" argument.

I think Porto rico does

A qui sont les chiefs , a qui sontttttttttttttttttttttttttttt les chiefs??
JEL SAIS PAS!

:)

stupid fucking frogs, LEAVE the country, GO to France, the ENTIRE country does not want you here accept for other frogs in Ontario.

Alberta has been praying to God that you guys leave, it would save us so much $ to have to not pay for the thousands of lazy fucking french and maritimes people <get the fuck out also.

seperatist? fuck you, i am Canadian, and so should you, FUCK OFF.

yeah Hydro is definitly our best asset, and dont forget we can produce a shitload more and sell it to the US or Ontario :P
yeah Quebec ppl doesnt like the America that elected Bush but i think whatever we use our own currency or another one, that not a big problem..
for the federal stuff, what in Quebec stay in Quebec :P (if only it was that easy...)
but it will be done cause it will be in the interest of both parties to solve it the fastest way...

Fact

No country will recognize the breakup of one of the worlds most successful countries on the basis of a simple majority in one region of the country. With a 2/3rds majority, which you'll never get, you'll have international support. Then there's still the problem of what to do with the millions of Canadians in the province of Quebec who don't want to seperate. Do you tell them they have too leave or give up their citizenship? If they leave will they be compensated by the new country for their loss of property? What if they refuse to leave and refuse to accept the authority of the new government? What if the regions who voted no decide to seperate from this utopian french wonderland of New France; will you send in your army or will you accept their democratic process.

You've been sold an ivory towers pipe dream if you think a 51% yes vote gets you what you want.

i dont think Canada will have the choice.. otherwise, the CND dollar will lose a lot of it value... imagine all the Quebec selling all their CAD...

what we REALLY need to do is to have a vote in the rest of Canada and we get to vote if you should stay or not.

i bet you the rest of the country wants you out also, no one likes you. FUCK OFF.

especially in Alberta if we had this type of vote 90% of us would vote to have you ousted.