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^R3K^ · 01-08-2002, 08:14 AM

Ok WiZd0m And I Have a Small Wager On Something.. I

Say 1024MB Translates Into 1GB

He Says 1000MB Translates Into 1GB..

What Do You Think And What Is The Standard?

Spill your guts..

X-raid · 01-08-2002, 08:16 AM

I was wrong, I did not count

------------------

I can kill you, so fuck off!

[This message has been edited by X-raid (edited 01-08-2002).]

BabeHunter · 01-08-2002, 08:25 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by X-raid:
1024KB is 1MB
1000MB is 1GB

8Bit=1B
1024B=1K
1024K=1MB
1024MB=1GB

Mango · 01-08-2002, 08:27 AM

Errr... Officially, 1GB = 1073741824 bytes

(thanks to my calculator

)

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wiZd0m · 01-08-2002, 08:47 AM

You guys are all wrong. ^R3K^ still beleives the earth is flat and sitting on pillars too. Mango, if you input wrong units in your calculator, it will give you an innacurate result
<table border="1" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0" style="border-collapse: collapse" bordercolor="#111111" width="51%" id="AutoNumber2" bgcolor="#FFFFFF">
<tr>
<td width="15%" align="center"> Factor </td>
<td width="13%" align="center">Name </td>
<td width="15%" align="center">Symbol </td>
<td width="34%" align="center">Origin</td>
<td width="23%" align="center">Derivation </td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td width="15%" align="center"> 210</td>
<td width="13%" align="center">kibi</td>
<td width="15%" align="center">Ki</td>
<td width="34%" align="center">kilobinary: (210)1</td>
<td width="23%" align="center">kilo: (103)1</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td width="15%" align="center"> 220</td>
<td width="13%" align="center">mebi</td>
<td width="15%" align="center">Mi</td>
<td width="34%" align="center">megabinary: (210)2 </td>
<td width="23%" align="center">mega: (103)2</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td width="15%" align="center"> 230</td>
<td width="13%" align="center">gibi</td>
<td width="15%" align="center">Gi</td>
<td width="34%" align="center">gigabinary: (210)3</td>
<td width="23%" align="center">giga: (103)3</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td width="15%" align="center"> 240</td>
<td width="13%" align="center">tebi</td>
<td width="15%" align="center">Ti</td>
<td width="34%" align="center">terabinary: (210)4</td>
<td width="23%" align="center">tera: (103)4</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td width="15%" align="center"> 250</td>
<td width="13%" align="center">pebi</td>
<td width="15%" align="center">Pi</td>
<td width="34%" align="center">petabinary: (210)5</td>
<td width="23%" align="center">peta: (103)5</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td width="15%" align="center"> 260</td>
<td width="13%" align="center">exbi</td>
<td width="15%" align="center">Ei</td>
<td width="34%" align="center">exabinary: (210)6</td>
<td width="23%" align="center">exa: (103)6</td>
</tr>
</table>
<table BORDER=0 CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=3 style="border-collapse: collapse" bordercolor="#111111" >
<tr>
<td ALIGN=CENTER COLSPAN="2" bgcolor="#FFFFFF">
Examples and comparisons with SI prefixes</td>
</tr>

<tr>
<td ALIGN=RIGHT BGCOLOR="#D0F0C8">one kibibit</td>

<td BGCOLOR="#D0F0C8">*1 Kibit = 210 bit = 1024 bit</td>
</tr>

<tr>
<td ALIGN=RIGHT bgcolor="#FFFFFF">one kilobit</td>

<td bgcolor="#FFFFFF">*1 kbit = 103 bit = 1000 bit</td>
</tr>

<tr>
<td ALIGN=RIGHT BGCOLOR="#D0F0C8">one mebibyte</td>

<td BGCOLOR="#D0F0C8">*1 MiB = 220 B = 1 048 576 B</td>
</tr>

<tr>
<td ALIGN=RIGHT bgcolor="#FFFFFF">one megabyte</td>

<td bgcolor="#FFFFFF">*1 MB = 106 B = 1 000 000 B</td>
</tr>

<tr>
<td ALIGN=RIGHT BGCOLOR="#D0F0C8">one gibibyte</td>

<td BGCOLOR="#D0F0C8">*1 GiB = 230 B = 1 073 741 824
B</td>
</tr>

<tr>
<td ALIGN=RIGHT bgcolor="#FFFFFF">one gigabyte</td>

<td bgcolor="#FFFFFF">*1 GB = 109 B = 1 000 000 000 B</td>
</tr>
</table>

The complete citation for this revised standard is IEC 60027-2, Second edition, 2000-11, Letter symbols to be used in electrical technology - Part 2: Telecommunications and electronics.

[This message has been edited by wiZd0m (edited 01-08-2002).]

[This message has been edited by wiZd0m (edited 01-08-2002).]

pornjacker · 01-08-2002, 08:48 AM

Your both right and there is already a great amount of confusion between the two measures.
I would say that 1024 mb = 1gb and anybody who says otherwise is a fool who cannot add up properly
8 bits = 1 byte
1024 bytes = 1 kb
1024 kb = 1 mb
1024 mb = 1 gb
those of you ho think 1000 mb = 1 gb .. GOD fucking help yaz if you ever start to do any programming or work in hexadecimal 1000 was introduced for numptys who cant count.

pornjacker · 01-08-2002, 09:09 AM

I should point out that although they are BOTH accepted as being a standard the original concept of 1024 comes from the architecture of computer hardware and was around a LONG time before some dumb ass rounded it up to 1000 (kilo=1000) it was badly named in the first place.

1000 mb=1gb sux majour ass

AzteK · 01-08-2002, 09:13 AM

here is a pretty cool tool I find handy...
http://www.myparentime.com/calculato...ulator35.shtml

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AzteK
Original Content that sells! Doesn't hurt to check it out ;)
CONVERTING: 1:300

Mango · 01-08-2002, 09:16 AM

We might also just call it '1 GB' ??

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wiZd0m · 01-08-2002, 09:30 AM

Prefixes for binary multiples
In December 1998 the International Electrotechnical Commission (IEC), the leading international organization for worldwide standardization in electrotechnology, approved as an IEC International Standard names and symbols for prefixes for binary multiples for use in the fields of data processing and data transmission. The prefixes are as follows:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Prefixes for binary multiples
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Factor Name Symbol Origin Derivation
2^10 kibi Ki kilobinary: (2^10)1 kilo: (10^3)1
2^20 mebi Mi megabinary: (2^10)2 mega: (10^3)2
2^30 gibi Gi gigabinary: (2^10)3 giga: (10^3)3
2^40 tebi Ti terabinary: (2^10)4 tera: (10^3)4
2^50 pebi Pi petabinary: (2^10)5 peta: (10^3)5
2^60 exbi Ei exabinary: (2^10)6 exa: (10^3)6

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Examples and comparisons with SI prefixes
one kibibit 1 Kibit = 2^10 bit = 1024 bit
one kilobit 1 kbit = 10^3 bit = 1000 bit
one mebibyte 1 MiB = 2^20 B = 1 048 576 B
one megabyte 1 MB = 10^6 B = 1 000 000 B
one gibibyte 1 GiB = 2^30 B = 1 073 741 824 B
one gigabyte 1 GB = 10^9 B = 1 000 000 000 B

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

It is suggested that in English, the first syllable of the name of the binary-multiple prefix should be pronounced in the same way as the first syllable of the name of the corresponding SI prefix, and that the second syllable should be pronounced as "bee."

It is important to recognize that the new prefixes for binary multiples are not part of the International System of Units (SI), the modern metric system. However, for ease of understanding and recall, they were derived from the SI prefixes for positive powers of ten. As can be seen from the above table, the name of each new prefix is derived from the name of the corresponding SI prefix by retaining the first two letters of the name of the SI prefix and adding the letters "bi," which recalls the word "binary." Similarly, the symbol of each new prefix is derived from the symbol of the corresponding SI prefix by adding the letter "i," which again recalls the word "binary." (For consistency with the other prefixes for binary multiples, the symbol Ki is used for 210 rather than ki.)

Official publication
These prefixes for binary multiples, which were developed by IEC Technical Committee (TC) 25, Quantities and units, and their letter symbols, with the strong support of the International Committee for Weights and Measures (CIPM) and the Institute of Electrical and Electronics Engineers (IEEE), were first adopted by the IEC as Amendment 2 to IEC International Standard IEC 60027-2: Letter symbols to be used in electrical technology - Part 2: Telecommunications and electronics. The full content of Amendment 2, which has a publication date of 1999-01, is reflected in the tables above and the suggestion regarding pronunciation. Subsequently the contents of this Amendment were incorportated in the second edition of IEC 60027-2, which has a publication date of 2000-11 (the first edition was published in 1972). The complete citation for this revised standard is IEC 60027-2, Second edition, 2000-11, Letter symbols to be used in electrical technology - Part 2: Telecommunications and electronics.

Historical context*
Once upon a time, computer professionals noticed that 210 was very nearly equal to 1000 and started using the SI prefix "kilo" to mean 1024. That worked well enough for a decade or two because everybody who talked kilobytes knew that the term implied 1024 bytes. But, almost overnight a much more numerous "everybody" bought computers, and the trade computer professionals needed to talk to physicists and engineers and even to ordinary people, most of whom know that a kilometer is 1000 meters and a kilogram is 1000 grams.

Then data storage for gigabytes, and even terabytes, became practical, and the storage devices were not constructed on binary trees, which meant that, for many practical purposes, binary arithmetic was less convenient than decimal arithmetic. The result is that today "everybody" does not "know" what a megabyte is. When discussing computer memory, most manufacturers use megabyte to mean 220 = 1 048 576 bytes, but the manufacturers of computer storage devices usually use the term to mean 1 000 000 bytes. Some designers of local area networks have used megabit per second to mean 1 048 576 bit/s, but all telecommunications engineers use it to mean 106 bit/s. And if two definitions of the megabyte are not enough, a third megabyte of 1 024 000 bytes is the megabyte used to format the familiar 90 mm (3 1/2 inch), "1.44 MB" diskette. The confusion is real, as is the potential for incompatibility in standards and in implemented systems.

Faced with this reality, the IEEE Standards Board decided that IEEE standards will use the conventional, internationally adopted, definitions of the SI prefixes. Mega will mean 1 000 000, except that the base-two definition may be used (if such usage is explicitly pointed out on a case-by-case basis) until such time that prefixes for binary multiples are adopted by an appropriate standards body.

[This message has been edited by wiZd0m (edited 01-08-2002).]

wiZd0m · 01-08-2002, 09:33 AM

You can see it's already applied in the latest Linux Kernel and it was discussed here http://kerneltrap.com/article.php?sid=434 (pr0, I told you to subscribe to the Kernel Mailling List, it's well worth it)

and of course, what I just quoted is from NIST itself here http://physics.nist.gov/cuu/Units/binary.html

So there ashould be no confusion, no name calling or anything like that.

Ignorance can be cured with accurate knowledge and precision

[This message has been edited by wiZd0m (edited 01-08-2002).]

pornjacker · 01-08-2002, 09:35 AM

All is explained here in the origins of the greatest fuckup since the square wheel. http://www.pcguide.com/intro/fun/bindec-c.html

To see the simplicity of 1024 you need to look at binary and hexadecimal calculations

1024 in binary = 10000000000
1000 in binary = 1111101000
1024 in hex = 0400
1000 in hex = 03E8

All you computers memory busses and even your hard drives are calculated using hexadecimal and none of the calculations will work if you round down to 1000

WiZd0m cough up

Speedy26 · 01-08-2002, 09:36 AM

1000MB Translates Into $106.89 in sales

wiZd0m · 01-08-2002, 09:37 AM

Astek, it's cool but the tool you pointed out, it's information is innacurate

wiZd0m · 01-08-2002, 09:45 AM

pornjacker, eventually, when you will take the time to actually read the STANDARD and you will see the light

you apply the wrong units.

MiB not MB and if you even take the time to quote an article you did not efven read, look at the table in the middle of the page

wiZd0m · 01-08-2002, 09:47 AM

pornjacker

see this paragraph

There's potential good news regarding this whole binary/decimal conundrum. The IEEE has proposed a new naming convention for the binary numbers, to hopefully eliminate some of the confusion. Under this proposal, for binary numbers the third and fourth letters in the prefix are changed to "bi", so "mega" becomes "mebi" for example. Thus, one megabyte would be 10^6 bytes, but one mebibyte would be 2^20 bytes. The abbreviation would become "1 MiB" instead of "1 MB". "Mebibyte" sounds goofy, but hey, I'm sure "byte" did too, 30 years ago. ;^) Here's a summary table showing the decimal and binary measurements and their abbreviations and values ("bytes" are shown as an example unit here, but the prefices could apply to any unit of measure):

pornjacker · 01-08-2002, 09:48 AM

WiZd0m you nee to read your own posts man they are quite clearly talking about "GIB" not "GIG"
No fucking way will programmers or hardware manufacturers turn to GIB as a unit of calculation it aint ever gonna fucking happen and if I see any fucker using it I will kill them

pornjacker · 01-08-2002, 09:55 AM

I say we round up all the fools who round down to 1000 and kill them all

programmers could not possibly work in blocks of 1000 because the hardware they are programming works in base 2

wiZd0m · 01-08-2002, 09:55 AM

Listen, it's not because british people are still living in the middle - ages with the imperial system, that the world is not using the metric system

Wake up, times are changing

wiZd0m · 01-08-2002, 10:00 AM

Listen you are confusing the units

The standard is not saying that computers should use a base 10 to manipulate information.

The standard say that BASE 2, you use "bi"

mebibyte
gibibyte

etc

computer dinamics did not change, the units use to represent the vallues is/was innacurate. Thus the correction.

"Labels" to represent x amount of data was define precisely in IEC 60027-2 (the revision) you can grab a copy online at ANSI and see whats in there.

[This message has been edited by wiZd0m (edited 01-08-2002).]

Jakke PNG · 01-08-2002, 10:00 AM

I plan to save the day.
This is a fact:

1B = 8b
1KB = 1024B = 2¹º
1MB = 1048576B = 2²º
1GB = 1073741824B = 2³º

Cheers.
God it's great to be nerd

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Offshore Clicks - 3c per blind click.
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pornjacker · 01-08-2002, 10:01 AM

shit shit shit will you peeps never learn its the hardware that determines the calculations and they have been around a long time before a bunch of clowns took kb to = 1000 bytes

fuck fuck fuck I'm going to kill the whole world if this shit isn't sorted our real fucking soon

wiZd0m · 01-08-2002, 10:06 AM

"Labels" to represent x amount of data was define precisely in IEC 60027-2 (the revision) you can grab a copy online at ANSI and see whats in there.

what is it you are still confusing ?

pornjacker · 01-08-2002, 10:06 AM

I was born with 8 fucking fingers

Too fucking late I'm stepping into my freezer and I'm going cryogenic until summer.

wiZd0m · 01-08-2002, 10:07 AM

OH, and to quote Alan Cox (The most famous british developper)

From: Alan Cox
Subject: Re: Configure.help editorial policy
Date: Sat, 22 Dec 2001 00:32:54 +0000 (GMT)

> by the MB, everyone talks about MB == 1024*1024... I'm having a
> hard time giving a sympathetic ear to anyone try to change the well
> established, and consistent (barring the storage venduhs), standard.

If someone sells you 16MB of RAM and it turns out to be 16,000,000 bytes,
not only would it be appropriate use of units, it would be quite reasonable
as far as I can see to say it was in accordance with labelling of products.

The world did not begin in 1970, A-Za-z is not English collate order and
M is 1,000,000. When computing meets the rest of planet earth usages for
the odd hundred years its hard to see any reason to believe we are "right"

Eric using MiB seems the right thing. Its an ugly but appropriate unit, its
at least recommended as a solution by a standards body. We can either
redefine SI units ("You cannot change the laws of physics") or find a better
label. What better than a recommended one others use.

Alan

pornjacker · 01-08-2002, 10:19 AM

Before I'm completely frozen one of my first posts pointed out that the fuckup comes from the inappropriate naming of KB MB GB but old habits are hard to die.
This fucking committee did not once ask my fucking opinion or I would have given them a good shot to the nose.

I'VE SEEN THE FUCKING DEVIL AND HE HAS 29A ON HIS FOREHEAD.

wiZd0m · 01-08-2002, 10:26 AM

Now we are comparing aples with aples now that we use the STANDARD for labling apropriate amounts of DATA

It's true, it is a change. It's true it is ugly.

But correcting 30 years of innacurate labeling is a good thing.

It's sounds funny too, and it leads to very lively discussion with peers, until they finally see the light

[This message has been edited by wiZd0m (edited 01-08-2002).]

1st · 01-08-2002, 10:28 AM

i agree with mambo.

^R3K^ · 01-08-2002, 10:31 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by wiZd0m:
But correcting 30 years of innacurate labeling is a good thing.

Innacurate my ass, All you premadonnas want a name, you and Aristotle, your all alike

Jakke PNG · 01-08-2002, 10:41 AM

I win!

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Offshore Clicks - 3c per blind click.
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pornjacker · 01-08-2002, 10:44 AM

As far as I am aware the pioneers of computers invented the word "byte" whilst they are still playing with valves and magnets for memory.

the words kilobyte and megabyte blah blah blah are unique words that were used for COMPUTERS and do not in any way equate to grams or kilograms or have anything to do with weighing fruit and vegetables.

They should be left the fuck alone they are integrated into the computer history and no fucker has the right to change the meaning of the words given by their creators.
erm ... but peace to all

pr0 · 01-08-2002, 10:44 AM

wizd0m is on top of his game....you should know better than to battle him.

word up wizd0m

wiZd0m · 01-08-2002, 10:50 AM

pornjacker,

Despite the STANDARD!

You still try to label BASE 2 UNITS with BASE 10 LABELS

You need to give me some of those rocks you have, perhaps

^R3K^ · 01-08-2002, 10:53 AM

Thank You, Thats What I Have Been Trying To Say! But As Wiz Says "Look At My Name, How Do You Think I Recieved Such A Name".. LOL
He Is My Hero Even Though He Is Wrong

Quote:

Originally posted by pornjacker:
As far as I am aware the pioneers of computers invented the word "byte" whilst they are still playing with valves and magnets for memory.

the words kilobyte and megabyte blah blah blah are unique words that were used for COMPUTERS and do not in any way equate to grams or kilograms or have anything to do with weighing fruit and vegetables.

They should be left the fuck alone they are integrated into the computer history and no fucker has the right to change the meaning of the words given by their creators.
erm ... but peace to all

pr0 · 01-08-2002, 10:53 AM

& by the way wizd0m http://kerneltrap.com/user.php?op=userinfo&uname=pr0 lol

wiZd0m · 01-08-2002, 11:00 AM

hahaha, you are for sure gonna me "labeled" as a "troll" there, LOL

you need to add http:// in front of your url, otherwiose you end up with http://kerneltrap.com/www.pimpfamily.com

[This message has been edited by wiZd0m (edited 01-08-2002).]

wiZd0m · 01-08-2002, 11:05 AM

^R3K^

mislabling data is like mislabling species in nature.

is a dog a cat and a cow a horse ?

Labels are there to represent in language abstract idea or physical entities.

This is why we need to be rigorous, accurate and precise.

STANDARS are espacially important in science because they are there so when we talk about something, we all know what we are talking about!

[This message has been edited by wiZd0m (edited 01-08-2002).]

pornjacker · 01-08-2002, 11:05 AM

wiZd0m when the words ere invented there was no such standard for 1024 and the words they create did not exist before they introduced them, you can bet your ass that they were never intended to be mixed up with the decimal system.

like I said they were unique words used to describe internal addresses of computers and were not intended to be used in other fields so why bother changing them.

Hell will freeze over before I start to talk about a gigabyte as being 1000 megabytes.

They may well have renamed them but I don't think they have any right to do so, the creators of the words gave them values and nobody has any right to change that meaning.
Worst of all the new words sound stupid and are unpronounceable.

wiZd0m · 01-08-2002, 11:13 AM

pornjacker

According to the standard, technically a megabyte (MB) is a power of ten, while a mebibyte (MiB) is a power of two, appropriate for binary machines. A megabyte is then 1,000,000 bytes. A mebibyte is the actual 1,048,576 bytes that most intend.

It was mislabeled in the first place and now they are correcting it.

mega (power of 10) should never have been given to a power of 2 unit.

[This message has been edited by wiZd0m (edited 01-08-2002).]

wiZd0m · 01-08-2002, 11:20 AM

Historical context*

Once upon a time, computer professionals noticed that 2^10 was very nearly equal to 1000 and started using the SI prefix "kilo" to mean 1024. That worked well enough for a decade or two because everybody who talked kilobytes knew that the term implied 1024 bytes. But, almost overnight a much more numerous "everybody" bought computers, and the trade computer professionals needed to talk to physicists and engineers and even to ordinary people, most of whom know that a kilometer is 1000 meters and a kilogram is 1000 grams.

Then data storage for gigabytes, and even terabytes, became practical, and the storage devices were not constructed on binary trees, which meant that, for many practical purposes, binary arithmetic was less convenient than decimal arithmetic. The result is that today "everybody" does not "know" what a megabyte is. When discussing computer memory, most manufacturers use megabyte to mean 2^20 = 1 048 576 bytes, but the manufacturers of computer storage devices usually use the term to mean 1 000 000 bytes. Some designers of local area networks have used megabit per second to mean 1 048 576 bit/s, but all telecommunications engineers use it to mean 10^6 bit/s. And if two definitions of the megabyte are not enough, a third megabyte of 1 024 000 bytes is the megabyte used to format the familiar 90 mm (3 1/2 inch), "1.44 MB" diskette. The confusion is real, as is the potential for incompatibility in standards and in implemented systems.

Faced with this reality, the IEEE Standards Board decided that IEEE standards will use the conventional, internationally adopted, definitions of the SI prefixes. Mega will mean 1 000 000, except that the base-two definition may be used (if such usage is explicitly pointed out on a case-by-case basis) until such time that prefixes for binary multiples are adopted by an appropriate standards body.

* Historical context adapted from: Bruce Barrow, "A Lesson in Megabytes," IEEE Standards Bearer, January 1997, page 5. Portions copyright ? 1997 by the Institute of Electrical and Electronics Engineers, Inc.

taken from http://physics.nist.gov/cuu/Units/binary.html

[This message has been edited by wiZd0m (edited 01-08-2002).]

^R3K^ · 01-08-2002, 11:32 AM

I withdraw from the bet.. Wizdom wins.

Will I Use mebibyte? Nope
But Sometime While I Was Sleeping It Happend To Become Standard..

*Hands WiZd0m $10

pornjacker · 01-08-2002, 11:33 AM

lol wiZd0m I'm well aware of the differences in calculations and also the fact that they were inappropriately named in the first place but the words are unique to computers I just don't see the point in changing them.

Like I keep pointing out the creators of the words gave them a numerical value and I don't think anybody has any right to change the value of a unique word.

This debate will continue to exist for many years to come and cause even more confusion.

Not only that but I don't see how any of this is going to help the newbie get a grasp of the relationship between hardware and software.

I bet you would be VERY pissed if you went to buy 128 meg of ram and it displayed as 128,000,000,000 (add or remove zeros until correct) bytes on your computer.
the IEEE Standards Board can piss off I'm with ^R3K^ they have no right to change the values of the creators.

shit I feel old toay

wiZd0m · 01-08-2002, 11:33 AM

you can keep it is you start labeling me as wiZd0m instead of WiZd0m

pornjacker · 01-08-2002, 11:36 AM

rofl $10

wiZd0m · 01-08-2002, 11:47 AM

pornjacker, over time, everyone will adapt to it. Rigorous documents will use the standard and it's already taking place.
http://www.tux.org/lkml/#s9-13

See the FS representation.

New programming books will use the standard, and overtime, only those of that era will remember this.

My father learned to count in inches and yards, I learned in centimeter and meters.

Times change.

We just need to start using it, and it's quite funny when you go to the store and ask for a Dimm of 1 Gibibyte of ram and things like that.

pornjacker · 01-08-2002, 11:56 AM

My very final post on this matter, I wonder what the IEEE Standards Board will rename E=mc² to because its not actually an accurate equation for energy.

wiZd0m · 01-08-2002, 11:57 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by pornjacker:
rofl $10

Yeah, I was on the phone with James and I don't know how we deviated from our initial discussion to start aguing about proper data labels.

So I asked him how much money he was willing to put on the table to back up his claims. (Although it's unfair cuz I knew what the standard was.)

^R3K^ · 01-08-2002, 11:59 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by pornjacker:
My very final post on this matter, I wonder what the IEEE Standards Board will rename E=mc² to because its not actually an accurate equation for energy.

ahh hell, they are all run by proxy corps, who are ran by the NSA who are acting proxys of aliens!!!

^R3K^ · 01-08-2002, 12:03 PM

HAHA, I Cant Remember Either, LOL. Im Trying My Damnest To Remember Too.

Quote:

Originally posted by wiZd0m:
Yeah, I was on the phone with James and I don't know how we deviated from our initial discussion to start aguing about proper data labels.

So I asked him how much money he was willing to put on the table to back up his claims. (Although it's unfair cuz I knew what the standard was.)

wiZd0m · 01-08-2002, 12:15 PM

I remember, it's those estonian e-mails Marie got were too funny.

01-08-2002, 08:16 AM	#2
X-raid Confirmed User Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Sweden Posts: 328	I was wrong, I did not count ------------------ I can kill you, so fuck off!<font color="#505050"> [This message has been edited by X-raid (edited 01-08-2002).]

01-08-2002, 08:47 AM	#5
wiZd0m Confirmed User Join Date: Feb 2001 Location: Montreal Posts: 1,526	You guys are all wrong. ^R3K^ still beleives the earth is flat and sitting on pillars too. Mango, if you input wrong units in your calculator, it will give you an innacurate result <table border="1" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0" style="border-collapse: collapse" bordercolor="#111111" width="51%" id="AutoNumber2" bgcolor="#FFFFFF"> <tr> <td width="15%" align="center"><font color="#000080"> Factor </font></td> <td width="13%" align="center"><font color="#000080">Name </font></td> <td width="15%" align="center"><font color="#000080">Symbol </font></td> <td width="34%" align="center"><font color="#000080">Origin</font></td> <td width="23%" align="center"><font color="#000080">Derivation </font></td> </tr> <tr> <td width="15%" align="center"><font color="#000080"> 2<sup>10</sup></font></td> <td width="13%" align="center"><font color="#000080">kibi</font></td> <td width="15%" align="center"><font color="#000080">Ki</font></td> <td width="34%" align="center"><font color="#000080">kilobinary: (2<sup>10</sup>)<sup>1</sup></font></td> <td width="23%" align="center"><font color="#000080">kilo: (10<sup>3</sup>)<sup>1</sup></font></td> </tr> <tr> <td width="15%" align="center"><font color="#000080"> 2<sup>20</sup></font></td> <td width="13%" align="center"><font color="#000080">mebi</font></td> <td width="15%" align="center"><font color="#000080">Mi</font></td> <td width="34%" align="center"><font color="#000080">megabinary: (2<sup>10</sup>)<sup>2 </sup></font></td> <td width="23%" align="center"><font color="#000080">mega: (10<sup>3</sup>)<sup>2</sup></font></td> </tr> <tr> <td width="15%" align="center"><font color="#000080"> 2<sup>30</sup></font></td> <td width="13%" align="center"><font color="#000080">gibi</font></td> <td width="15%" align="center"><font color="#000080">Gi</font></td> <td width="34%" align="center"><font color="#000080">gigabinary: (2<sup>10</sup>)<sup>3</sup></font></td> <td width="23%" align="center"><font color="#000080">giga: (10<sup>3</sup>)<sup>3</sup></font></td> </tr> <tr> <td width="15%" align="center"><font color="#000080"> 2<sup>40</sup></font></td> <td width="13%" align="center"><font color="#000080">tebi</font></td> <td width="15%" align="center"><font color="#000080">Ti</font></td> <td width="34%" align="center"><font color="#000080">terabinary: (2<sup>10</sup>)<sup>4</sup></font></td> <td width="23%" align="center"><font color="#000080">tera: (10<sup>3</sup>)<sup>4</sup></font></td> </tr> <tr> <td width="15%" align="center"><font color="#000080"> 2<sup>50</sup></font></td> <td width="13%" align="center"><font color="#000080">pebi</font></td> <td width="15%" align="center"><font color="#000080">Pi</font></td> <td width="34%" align="center"><font color="#000080">petabinary: (2<sup>10</sup>)<sup>5</sup></font></td> <td width="23%" align="center"><font color="#000080">peta: (10<sup>3</sup>)<sup>5</sup></font></td> </tr> <tr> <td width="15%" align="center"><font color="#000080"> 2<sup>60</sup></font></td> <td width="13%" align="center"><font color="#000080">exbi</font></td> <td width="15%" align="center"><font color="#000080">Ei</font></td> <td width="34%" align="center"><font color="#000080">exabinary: (2<sup>10</sup>)<sup>6</sup></font></td> <td width="23%" align="center"><font color="#000080">exa: (10<sup>3</sup>)<sup>6</sup></font></td> </tr> </table> <table BORDER=0 CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=3 style="border-collapse: collapse" bordercolor="#111111" > <tr> <td ALIGN=CENTER COLSPAN="2" bgcolor="#FFFFFF"> <font face="Times New Roman" color="#111111">Examples and comparisons with SI prefixes</font></td> </tr> <tr> <td ALIGN=RIGHT BGCOLOR="#D0F0C8"><font face="Times New Roman" color="#111111">one kibibit</font></td> <td BGCOLOR="#D0F0C8"><font face="Times New Roman" color="#111111">1 Kibit = 2<sup>10</sup> bit = 1024 bit</font></td> </tr> <tr> <td ALIGN=RIGHT bgcolor="#FFFFFF"><font face="Times New Roman" color="#111111">one kilobit</font></td> <td bgcolor="#FFFFFF"><font face="Times New Roman" color="#111111">1 kbit = 10<sup>3</sup> bit = 1000 bit</font></td> </tr> <tr> <td ALIGN=RIGHT BGCOLOR="#D0F0C8"><font face="Times New Roman" color="#111111">one mebibyte</font></td> <td BGCOLOR="#D0F0C8"><font face="Times New Roman" color="#111111">1 MiB = 2<sup>20</sup> B = 1 048 576 B</font></td> </tr> <tr> <td ALIGN=RIGHT bgcolor="#FFFFFF"><font face="Times New Roman" color="#111111">one megabyte</font></td> <td bgcolor="#FFFFFF"><font face="Times New Roman" color="#111111">1 MB = 10<sup>6</sup> B = 1 000 000 B</font></td> </tr> <tr> <td ALIGN=RIGHT BGCOLOR="#D0F0C8"><font face="Times New Roman" color="#111111">one gibibyte</font></td> <td BGCOLOR="#D0F0C8"><font face="Times New Roman" color="#111111">1 GiB = 2<sup>30</sup> B = 1 073 741 824 B</font></td> </tr> <tr> <td ALIGN=RIGHT bgcolor="#FFFFFF"><font face="Times New Roman" color="#111111">one gigabyte</font></td> <td bgcolor="#FFFFFF"><font face="Times New Roman" color="#111111">1 GB = 10<sup>9</sup> B = 1 000 000 000 B</font></td> </tr> </table> The complete citation for this revised standard is IEC 60027-2, Second edition, 2000-11, Letter symbols to be used in electrical technology - Part 2: Telecommunications and electronics. [This message has been edited by wiZd0m (edited 01-08-2002).] [This message has been edited by wiZd0m (edited 01-08-2002).]

01-08-2002, 08:14 AM	#1
^R3K^ Confirmed User Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: North Carolina Posts: 2,815	You Opinions Needed Badly ;-) Ok WiZd0m And I Have a Small Wager On Something.. I Say 1024MB Translates Into 1GB He Says 1000MB Translates Into 1GB.. What Do You Think And What Is The Standard? Spill your guts..

01-08-2002, 08:27 AM	#4
Mango Confirmed User Join Date: Aug 2001 Posts: 474	Errr... Officially, 1GB = 1073741824 bytes (thanks to my calculator ) ------------------ CobaltWeb - High Volume Hosting - $0.70-$0.61 per GB - Plans from $13.99 per Month - No Setup Fee ---The End of Free Hosting---

01-08-2002, 08:48 AM	#6
pornjacker Banned Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: UK Posts: 140	Your both right and there is already a great amount of confusion between the two measures. I would say that 1024 mb = 1gb and anybody who says otherwise is a fool who cannot add up properly 8 bits = 1 byte 1024 bytes = 1 kb 1024 kb = 1 mb 1024 mb = 1 gb those of you ho think 1000 mb = 1 gb .. GOD fucking help yaz if you ever start to do any programming or work in hexadecimal 1000 was introduced for numptys who cant count.

01-08-2002, 09:09 AM	#7
pornjacker Banned Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: UK Posts: 140	I should point out that although they are BOTH accepted as being a standard the original concept of 1024 comes from the architecture of computer hardware and was around a LONG time before some dumb ass rounded it up to 1000 (kilo=1000) it was badly named in the first place. 1000 mb=1gb sux majour ass

01-08-2002, 09:13 AM	#8
AzteK Confirmed User Industry Role: Join Date: Feb 2001 Location: Northern Cali, USA Posts: 3,446	here is a pretty cool tool I find handy... http://www.myparentime.com/calculato...ulator35.shtml ------------------ AzteK Original Content that sells! Doesn't hurt to check it out ;) CONVERTING: 1:300

01-08-2002, 09:16 AM	#9
Mango Confirmed User Join Date: Aug 2001 Posts: 474	We might also just call it '1 GB' ?? ------------------ CobaltWeb - High Volume Hosting - $0.70-$0.61 per GB - Plans from $13.99 per Month - No Setup Fee ---The End of Free Hosting---

01-08-2002, 09:30 AM	#10
wiZd0m Confirmed User Join Date: Feb 2001 Location: Montreal Posts: 1,526	Prefixes for binary multiples In December 1998 the International Electrotechnical Commission (IEC), the leading international organization for worldwide standardization in electrotechnology, approved as an IEC International Standard names and symbols for prefixes for binary multiples for use in the fields of data processing and data transmission. The prefixes are as follows: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Prefixes for binary multiples -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Factor Name Symbol Origin Derivation 2^10 kibi Ki kilobinary: (2^10)1 kilo: (10^3)1 2^20 mebi Mi megabinary: (2^10)2 mega: (10^3)2 2^30 gibi Gi gigabinary: (2^10)3 giga: (10^3)3 2^40 tebi Ti terabinary: (2^10)4 tera: (10^3)4 2^50 pebi Pi petabinary: (2^10)5 peta: (10^3)5 2^60 exbi Ei exabinary: (2^10)6 exa: (10^3)6 -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Examples and comparisons with SI prefixes one kibibit 1 Kibit = 2^10 bit = 1024 bit one kilobit 1 kbit = 10^3 bit = 1000 bit one mebibyte 1 MiB = 2^20 B = 1 048 576 B one megabyte 1 MB = 10^6 B = 1 000 000 B one gibibyte 1 GiB = 2^30 B = 1 073 741 824 B one gigabyte 1 GB = 10^9 B = 1 000 000 000 B -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- It is suggested that in English, the first syllable of the name of the binary-multiple prefix should be pronounced in the same way as the first syllable of the name of the corresponding SI prefix, and that the second syllable should be pronounced as "bee." It is important to recognize that the new prefixes for binary multiples are not part of the International System of Units (SI), the modern metric system. However, for ease of understanding and recall, they were derived from the SI prefixes for positive powers of ten. As can be seen from the above table, the name of each new prefix is derived from the name of the corresponding SI prefix by retaining the first two letters of the name of the SI prefix and adding the letters "bi," which recalls the word "binary." Similarly, the symbol of each new prefix is derived from the symbol of the corresponding SI prefix by adding the letter "i," which again recalls the word "binary." (For consistency with the other prefixes for binary multiples, the symbol Ki is used for 210 rather than ki.) Official publication These prefixes for binary multiples, which were developed by IEC Technical Committee (TC) 25, Quantities and units, and their letter symbols, with the strong support of the International Committee for Weights and Measures (CIPM) and the Institute of Electrical and Electronics Engineers (IEEE), were first adopted by the IEC as Amendment 2 to IEC International Standard IEC 60027-2: Letter symbols to be used in electrical technology - Part 2: Telecommunications and electronics. The full content of Amendment 2, which has a publication date of 1999-01, is reflected in the tables above and the suggestion regarding pronunciation. Subsequently the contents of this Amendment were incorportated in the second edition of IEC 60027-2, which has a publication date of 2000-11 (the first edition was published in 1972). The complete citation for this revised standard is IEC 60027-2, Second edition, 2000-11, Letter symbols to be used in electrical technology - Part 2: Telecommunications and electronics. Historical context* Once upon a time, computer professionals noticed that 210 was very nearly equal to 1000 and started using the SI prefix "kilo" to mean 1024. That worked well enough for a decade or two because everybody who talked kilobytes knew that the term implied 1024 bytes. But, almost overnight a much more numerous "everybody" bought computers, and the trade computer professionals needed to talk to physicists and engineers and even to ordinary people, most of whom know that a kilometer is 1000 meters and a kilogram is 1000 grams. Then data storage for gigabytes, and even terabytes, became practical, and the storage devices were not constructed on binary trees, which meant that, for many practical purposes, binary arithmetic was less convenient than decimal arithmetic. The result is that today "everybody" does not "know" what a megabyte is. When discussing computer memory, most manufacturers use megabyte to mean 220 = 1 048 576 bytes, but the manufacturers of computer storage devices usually use the term to mean 1 000 000 bytes. Some designers of local area networks have used megabit per second to mean 1 048 576 bit/s, but all telecommunications engineers use it to mean 106 bit/s. And if two definitions of the megabyte are not enough, a third megabyte of 1 024 000 bytes is the megabyte used to format the familiar 90 mm (3 1/2 inch), "1.44 MB" diskette. The confusion is real, as is the potential for incompatibility in standards and in implemented systems. Faced with this reality, the IEEE Standards Board decided that IEEE standards will use the conventional, internationally adopted, definitions of the SI prefixes. Mega will mean 1 000 000, except that the base-two definition may be used (if such usage is explicitly pointed out on a case-by-case basis) until such time that prefixes for binary multiples are adopted by an appropriate standards body. [This message has been edited by wiZd0m (edited 01-08-2002).]

01-08-2002, 09:33 AM	#11
wiZd0m Confirmed User Join Date: Feb 2001 Location: Montreal Posts: 1,526	You can see it's already applied in the latest Linux Kernel and it was discussed here http://kerneltrap.com/article.php?sid=434 (pr0, I told you to subscribe to the Kernel Mailling List, it's well worth it) and of course, what I just quoted is from NIST itself here http://physics.nist.gov/cuu/Units/binary.html So there ashould be no confusion, no name calling or anything like that. Ignorance can be cured with accurate knowledge and precision [This message has been edited by wiZd0m (edited 01-08-2002).]

01-08-2002, 09:35 AM	#12
pornjacker Banned Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: UK Posts: 140	All is explained here in the origins of the greatest fuckup since the square wheel. http://www.pcguide.com/intro/fun/bindec-c.html To see the simplicity of 1024 you need to look at binary and hexadecimal calculations 1024 in binary = 10000000000 1000 in binary = 1111101000 1024 in hex = 0400 1000 in hex = 03E8 All you computers memory busses and even your hard drives are calculated using hexadecimal and none of the calculations will work if you round down to 1000 WiZd0m cough up

01-08-2002, 09:36 AM	#13
Speedy26 Confirmed User Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: MI Posts: 950	1000MB Translates Into $106.89 in sales

01-08-2002, 09:37 AM	#14
wiZd0m Confirmed User Join Date: Feb 2001 Location: Montreal Posts: 1,526	Astek, it's cool but the tool you pointed out, it's information is innacurate

01-08-2002, 09:45 AM	#15
wiZd0m Confirmed User Join Date: Feb 2001 Location: Montreal Posts: 1,526	pornjacker, eventually, when you will take the time to actually read the STANDARD and you will see the light you apply the wrong units. MiB not MB and if you even take the time to quote an article you did not efven read, look at the table in the middle of the page

01-08-2002, 09:47 AM	#16
wiZd0m Confirmed User Join Date: Feb 2001 Location: Montreal Posts: 1,526	pornjacker see this paragraph There's potential good news regarding this whole binary/decimal conundrum. The IEEE has proposed a new naming convention for the binary numbers, to hopefully eliminate some of the confusion. Under this proposal, for binary numbers the third and fourth letters in the prefix are changed to "bi", so "mega" becomes "mebi" for example. Thus, one megabyte would be 10^6 bytes, but one mebibyte would be 2^20 bytes. The abbreviation would become "1 MiB" instead of "1 MB". "Mebibyte" sounds goofy, but hey, I'm sure "byte" did too, 30 years ago. ;^) Here's a summary table showing the decimal and binary measurements and their abbreviations and values ("bytes" are shown as an example unit here, but the prefices could apply to any unit of measure):

01-08-2002, 09:48 AM	#17
pornjacker Banned Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: UK Posts: 140	WiZd0m you nee to read your own posts man they are quite clearly talking about "GIB" not "GIG" No fucking way will programmers or hardware manufacturers turn to GIB as a unit of calculation it aint ever gonna fucking happen and if I see any fucker using it I will kill them

01-08-2002, 09:55 AM	#18
pornjacker Banned Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: UK Posts: 140	I say we round up all the fools who round down to 1000 and kill them all programmers could not possibly work in blocks of 1000 because the hardware they are programming works in base 2

01-08-2002, 10:00 AM	#20
wiZd0m Confirmed User Join Date: Feb 2001 Location: Montreal Posts: 1,526	Listen you are confusing the units The standard is not saying that computers should use a base 10 to manipulate information. The standard say that BASE 2, you use "bi" mebibyte gibibyte etc computer dinamics did not change, the units use to represent the vallues is/was innacurate. Thus the correction. "Labels" to represent x amount of data was define precisely in IEC 60027-2 (the revision) you can grab a copy online at ANSI and see whats in there. [This message has been edited by wiZd0m (edited 01-08-2002).]

01-08-2002, 10:00 AM	#21
Jakke PNG ex-TeenGodFather Industry Role: Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: Suomi Finland Perkele Posts: 20,306	I plan to save the day. This is a fact: 1B = 8b 1KB = 1024B = 2¹º 1MB = 1048576B = 2²º 1GB = 1073741824B = 2³º Cheers. God it's great to be nerd ------------------ TeenMafia.com Offshore Clicks - 3c per blind click. .:::Spamming is fun:::.

01-08-2002, 10:01 AM	#22
pornjacker Banned Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: UK Posts: 140	shit shit shit will you peeps never learn its the hardware that determines the calculations and they have been around a long time before a bunch of clowns took kb to = 1000 bytes fuck fuck fuck I'm going to kill the whole world if this shit isn't sorted our real fucking soon

01-08-2002, 10:06 AM	#23
wiZd0m Confirmed User Join Date: Feb 2001 Location: Montreal Posts: 1,526	"Labels" to represent x amount of data was define precisely in IEC 60027-2 (the revision) you can grab a copy online at ANSI and see whats in there. what is it you are still confusing ?

01-08-2002, 10:06 AM	#24
pornjacker Banned Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: UK Posts: 140	I was born with 8 fucking fingers Too fucking late I'm stepping into my freezer and I'm going cryogenic until summer.

01-08-2002, 10:07 AM	#25
wiZd0m Confirmed User Join Date: Feb 2001 Location: Montreal Posts: 1,526	OH, and to quote Alan Cox (The most famous british developper) From: Alan Cox Subject: Re: Configure.help editorial policy Date: Sat, 22 Dec 2001 00:32:54 +0000 (GMT) > by the MB, everyone talks about MB == 1024*1024... I'm having a > hard time giving a sympathetic ear to anyone try to change the well > established, and consistent (barring the storage venduhs), standard. If someone sells you 16MB of RAM and it turns out to be 16,000,000 bytes, not only would it be appropriate use of units, it would be quite reasonable as far as I can see to say it was in accordance with labelling of products. The world did not begin in 1970, A-Za-z is not English collate order and M is 1,000,000. When computing meets the rest of planet earth usages for the odd hundred years its hard to see any reason to believe we are "right" Eric using MiB seems the right thing. Its an ugly but appropriate unit, its at least recommended as a solution by a standards body. We can either redefine SI units ("You cannot change the laws of physics") or find a better label. What better than a recommended one others use. Alan

01-08-2002, 10:19 AM	#26
pornjacker Banned Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: UK Posts: 140	Before I'm completely frozen one of my first posts pointed out that the fuckup comes from the inappropriate naming of KB MB GB but old habits are hard to die. This fucking committee did not once ask my fucking opinion or I would have given them a good shot to the nose. I'VE SEEN THE FUCKING DEVIL AND HE HAS 29A ON HIS FOREHEAD.

01-08-2002, 10:26 AM	#27
wiZd0m Confirmed User Join Date: Feb 2001 Location: Montreal Posts: 1,526	Now we are comparing aples with aples now that we use the STANDARD for labling apropriate amounts of DATA It's true, it is a change. It's true it is ugly. But correcting 30 years of innacurate labeling is a good thing. It's sounds funny too, and it leads to very lively discussion with peers, until they finally see the light [This message has been edited by wiZd0m (edited 01-08-2002).]

01-08-2002, 10:28 AM	#28
1st So Fucking Banned Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: Finland Posts: 110	i agree with mambo.

01-08-2002, 10:41 AM	#30
Jakke PNG ex-TeenGodFather Industry Role: Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: Suomi Finland Perkele Posts: 20,306	I win! ------------------ TeenMafia.com Offshore Clicks - 3c per blind click. .:::Spamming is fun:::.

01-08-2002, 10:44 AM	#31
pornjacker Banned Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: UK Posts: 140	As far as I am aware the pioneers of computers invented the word "byte" whilst they are still playing with valves and magnets for memory. the words kilobyte and megabyte blah blah blah are unique words that were used for COMPUTERS and do not in any way equate to grams or kilograms or have anything to do with weighing fruit and vegetables. They should be left the fuck alone they are integrated into the computer history and no fucker has the right to change the meaning of the words given by their creators. erm ... but peace to all

01-08-2002, 10:44 AM	#32
pr0 rockin tha trailerpark Industry Role: Join Date: May 2001 Location: ~Coastal~ Posts: 23,088	wizd0m is on top of his game....you should know better than to battle him. word up wizd0m

01-08-2002, 10:50 AM	#33
wiZd0m Confirmed User Join Date: Feb 2001 Location: Montreal Posts: 1,526	pornjacker, Despite the STANDARD! You still try to label BASE 2 UNITS with BASE 10 LABELS You need to give me some of those rocks you have, perhaps

01-08-2002, 10:53 AM	#35
pr0 rockin tha trailerpark Industry Role: Join Date: May 2001 Location: ~Coastal~ Posts: 23,088	& by the way wizd0m http://kerneltrap.com/user.php?op=userinfo&uname=pr0 lol

01-08-2002, 11:00 AM	#36
wiZd0m Confirmed User Join Date: Feb 2001 Location: Montreal Posts: 1,526	hahaha, you are for sure gonna me "labeled" as a "troll" there, LOL you need to add http:// in front of your url, otherwiose you end up with http://kerneltrap.com/www.pimpfamily.com [This message has been edited by wiZd0m (edited 01-08-2002).]