String Theory IS RELIGION (controversy) - GoFuckYourself.com

2HousePlague · 03-15-2005, 12:09 AM

I'm kind of a physics geek, as some of you know.

But, I left the academic world before String Theory had come into the public attention.

In the intervening years, I experienced some (let's call them) Epiphanies of a highly spiritual order.

I'm not talking about seeing Jesus on the Subway, or any such nonsense. I mean acquiring a deep-seated sense of unseen things being true.

Anyway, when I first heard about String Theory, I didn't immediately see it for what I now believe it is. Then, I thought it was just among the more "loosely proven" quantum theories I'd come across. But now, a couple more years later, I see String Theory for exactly what it is...

The tenuous grazing of Science's long-reaching finger-nail against the Dome of the Divine.

I know that horrifies some of you. But, hear me out:

Without belaboring this thread with a lengthy description of String Theory, it is, essentially, the "Biggest Quantum Theory Ever" AND the only theory to ever RECONCILE all the previously irreconcilable sub-theories to each other.

String Theory also turned out to be what I first thought it was: "The Most Loosely-Proven Quantum Theory" I have ever seen.

String Theory contains some of the most speculative, inferential science that has ever achieved popular recognition.

It is, I believe, sufficiently different from any quantum theory before it to qualify for re-categorization as MetaPhysics (and see definition #3 below)

String Theory, I'm asserting, is the first Theory Regarding the Origin and Opreration of the Universe to come out of science that requires more faith than science to appreciate.

These days it seems all I talk about are things coming together -- usually with good results. I guess I'm just looking for where the lines are getting blurry.

But, it seems to me, we are at a crossroads now where Science and Religion can begin to exchange some each other's strengths -- in the pursuit of even higher ambitions of understanding than either has ever sought before.

Thoughts?

j-

________________________________

met·a·phys·ics ( P ) Pronunciation Key (mt-fzks)
n.
1. (used with a sing. verb) Philosophy. The branch of philosophy that examines the nature of reality, including the relationship between mind and matter, substance and attribute, fact and value.
2. (used with a pl. verb) The theoretical or first principles of a particular discipline: the metaphysics of law.
3. (used with a sing. verb) A priori speculation upon questions that are unanswerable to scientific observation, analysis, or experiment.
4. (used with a sing. verb) Excessively subtle or recondite reasoning.

Young · 03-15-2005, 12:13 AM

Interesting...but why waste our times trying to figure it out? By the time we fully understand it we'll probaly be gone.

Where can i read up more?

2HousePlague · 03-15-2005, 12:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Young

Interesting...but why waste our times trying to figure it out? By the time we fully understand it we'll probaly be gone.

You've hit nail right on the head!

Why waste time, indeed?!

What String Theory has done is stated exactly that question:

WHY WASTE TIME WITH A FORMAL PROOF, WHEN WE CAN "FEEL" THIS IS CORRECT?"

Quote:

Originally Posted by Young

Where can i read up more?

I'm not sure. This may be the first place -- LOL.

j-

Brujah · 03-15-2005, 12:23 AM

What the @#%#!$%# ???
http://www.whatthebleep.com/

nofx · 03-15-2005, 12:31 AM

how much lsd did you do before you "experienced some Epiphanies of a highly spiritual order." ?

AlienQ - BANNED FOR LIFE · 03-15-2005, 12:42 AM

This is unusual...

NaughtyRob · 03-15-2005, 12:44 AM

I have heard many talks about this on coasttocoastam.
Fascinating stuff.

Young · 03-15-2005, 12:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ContentProducer

coasttocoastam.
.

I thought I was the only one

Huggles · 03-15-2005, 12:55 AM

That's deep, man.

We came to be from dust, but where did the dust come from?

Why do I not remember the 6 billion years before the Earth existed?

Why is it that time seems to move so slowly while I am conscious, but while I am unconscious time seems to pass in an instant?

I wonder sometimes if I am just merely a bag of chemicals designed to die out and cease to exist completely?

Does this life mean anything? Are we lied to about God and consequences in order to prevent a total moral and social breakdown?

I think that my drug use has taught me that we can only interpret what our sober human senses allow us to experience.

............

NaughtyRob · 03-15-2005, 12:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Young

I thought I was the only one

Been listening since 1995.

2HousePlague · 03-15-2005, 12:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brujah

What the @#%#!$%# ???
http://www.whatthebleep.com/

Sounds very cool. I'll have to rent it.

I think it is possible today to identify, in all the sciences, a threshhold where solid, empirical, verifiable data trails away and a sort of "new-agey", inferential kind of "data" kicks in, that we come to, not via the Scientific Method, but by way of Indirect Perception.

Medicine, for example, for trading in life and death, has always invited religion's attention. But, today, at the level of laboratory-grown life-forms, cloning, stem-cell research, genetically-modified-organisms, etc. the science ITSELF has come into religious territory.

In state-of-the-art Physics, the further IRREDUCIBILITY of particles and of the quantum systems that might govern them, has forced a foray into the ALMOST ENTIRELY THEORETICAL.

Basically: We have no way to "see" any further, so let's change the definition of "see".

In state-of-the-art Medicine, our REDUCTION of life's constituent parts to Lego blocks we can disassemble and reassemble at will has forced a foray into a BASIC QUESTIONING OF THE NATURE OF LIFE.

Basically: Our capacity to Do has outpaced our capacity to assimilate our actions into the current concensus regarding the powers of mankind.

I would like to see Science venture enthusiastically in these new, uncharted directions -- at the sacrifice of long-held belief.

I would like to see Religion shake loose most of its dogma and "silly ritual" and compare its biggest questions and biggest ambitions to those of science.

j-

effer · 03-15-2005, 01:01 AM

http://www.stardrive.org/title.shtml

A great site to read. Jack Sarfatti is an amazing writer. I got interested in him when I happened across one of his notorious flame wars on USENET. The man is a genius and his articles are very thought provoking.

Brujah · 03-15-2005, 01:07 AM

What the Bleep Do We Know? says that science and spirituality are not different modes of thought, but are in fact describing the same thing. And it brings the power back to the individual man and woman as it demonstrates creation as the god-like capacity of every individual.

This outrageous film plunges you into a world where quantum uncertainty is demonstrated hahaha8211; where neurological processes, and perceptual shifts are engaged and lived by its protagonist - where everything is alive, and reality is changed by every thought.

Brujah · 03-15-2005, 01:09 AM

J, if you see the movie please post what you thought. I've seen it twice and loved it.

2HousePlague · 03-15-2005, 01:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brujah

J, if you see the movie please post what you thought. I've seen it twice and loved it.

I promise.

I'll dig this thread up and carry it on right here.

j-

irishfury · 03-15-2005, 01:15 AM

I love stuff like this. Specially string theory has been around long time. Bosonic String Theory Ect. I also believe the Physics is the blue print to truth of existence. Though it may not be that far off in future as people believe. With Quantom Computing, Mechanics ect.....

Downtime · 03-15-2005, 02:13 AM

I'm obsessed with this topic too! I've already read Elegant Universe by Brian Greene and I literally just picked up the Fabric of the Cosmos tonight at Borders. This could be a good thread!

Arousal Design · 03-15-2005, 03:27 AM

You've got a great point, ...

Faith is at its core simply believing.... and string theory requires a lot of it!

I'm very intrigued by String Theory though =)

Well put.

junction · 03-15-2005, 04:24 AM

I have 3 words for everyone:

Dr. Michio Kaku

jollyperv · 03-15-2005, 05:51 AM

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/elegant/

There's 4 hours of video on here, but be warned...you'll get sucked right in and have to sit through the whole thing.

XxXotic · 03-15-2005, 06:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 2HousePlague

You've hit nail right on the head!

I'm not sure. This may be the first place -- LOL.

j-

http://www.google.com/search?sourcei...=string+theory

i highly doubt you're the first person to bring it to the internet

2HousePlague · 03-15-2005, 07:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by XxXotic

http://www.google.com/search?sourcei...=string+theory

i highly doubt you're the first person to bring it to the internet

LOL -- thanks for humbling my midnight megalomania.

Hmmm... a first?

Well, certainly not String Theory, itself.

Probably not an observation of it's scientific "looseness"

But, perhaps the assertion that it departs enough from science, and in such a direction of mounting FAITH in the UNSEEN and UNSEEABLE, so as to begin to resemble religion --- well, maybe.

In other words, the title of this thread.

j-

Buddy · 03-15-2005, 08:47 AM

The part that bothers me is that we will likely not have these answers in my lifetime. But in the end the answers will be found. Nothing can stand up to the scientific method. The problem is that the scientific method takes time, lots of it, and while we are going through that process everyone will be speculating on what the end result will be based on what little evidence we have at the moment. I have a feeling that in the end, if we are there for it, we would laugh at what we are predicting right now, because it is a prediction based on such a small piece of the whole picture.
I think the string theory or more so the M theory has the potential to be the unifying theory that science has been searching for. It has the potential to expose so many unknown wonders of the universe, but in the end how will it effect everyday life? Knowing that there are 7 dimensions that we don't interact with, but that exist none the less doesn't change that fact that I have to go to work eveyday to feed my kids. In that way M theory might be a lot like religion, it can give you a frame from which to view the world, but you still have to live your life. Neither god nor m theory are going to feed you.

Tom_PM · 03-15-2005, 08:52 AM

Good vibrations, baby.

I was going to post the PBS link, but I see it here already. Get off my string.

Buddy · 03-15-2005, 08:54 AM

Another thought that just struck me is that religion is based on faith. At least most are. You don't need to have faith in science, you can test it yourself. You may need access to an atom smasher, but you can at least read the abstracts from the people that do test the theorys and see what evidence they present.
So the element of faith is removed. In that way I don't think that science and religion are on the verge of meeting, no matter how cool and magical the things hinted at by the m theory seem.

swedguy · 03-15-2005, 08:54 AM

I like strings, therefore I'm a believer!

swedguy · 03-15-2005, 08:58 AM

Can someone send me a box of LSD and I will solve this BEFORE the box is empty?

http://superstringtheory.com/

Downtime · 03-15-2005, 09:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by junction

I have 3 words for everyone:

Dr. Michio Kaku

Read his book; awesome!

2HousePlague · 03-15-2005, 10:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Buddy

Another thought that just struck me is that religion is based on faith. At least most are. You don't need to have faith in science, you can test it yourself.

Sure, religion is built on faith because it contains, as a basic, defining premise, that TRUTH will be sought not with empirical, replicable experimentation, but via a consultation with (whether the Self of Buddhism, the Oracle at Delphi, the Natural God of Thoreau and Emerson, or the preachings of Billy Graham) the PERFECT ABSTRACT. I define "Perfect Abstract" as either the conjury of the individual imgination or the collectively-sustained conjury of (religious) ideology and dogma. Basically, I mean, if it CAN'T be proved or disproved by science -- however many people believe it so -- we are operating in the realm of FAITH.

String ("M") Theory qualifies, under this test, as a faith-based belief system.

And, because it IS trying to explain such big questions as HOW?, WHEN?, and WHAT NEXT?, it begins to sound a lot like religion.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Buddy

... I don't think that science and religion are on the verge of meeting, no matter how cool and magical the things hinted at by the m theory seem.

To see the convergence of science and religion that I'm suggesting exists in String Theory, you have to accept that ANY effort of enquiry which abandons the 5 senses in favor OTHER intuitive powers -- IS metaphysics, and that metaphysical enquiries directed at the questions of how the universe was created and how it operates -- ARE religious in nature.

j-

fudpuck · 03-15-2005, 10:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 2HousePlague

Sounds very cool. I'll have to rent it.

I would like to see Religion shake loose most of its dogma and "silly ritual" and compare its biggest questions and biggest ambitions to those of science.

Wouldn't we all?

Kristian · 03-15-2005, 10:59 AM

I saw a docu on this about a year ago. The originator of String Theory blew people away when it was released.

I like the idea that we could communicate with parallel universes by something akin to a phone!

Amazing stuff.

wdsguy · 03-15-2005, 11:01 AM

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/elegant/program.html

huey · 03-15-2005, 12:02 PM

Im down with 11 dimensions.

2HousePlague · 03-15-2005, 12:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kristian

I like the idea that we could communicate with parallel universes by something akin to a phone!

String Theory allows for multiple dimensions (the basis of Universe Parallelism speculation) as follows:

(Super) String theory offers a possible unified theory of all fundamental forces, but requires a 10 dimensional spacetime, or else bad quantum states called "ghosts" with un-physical, negative probabilities become part of the spectrum.

This creates a problem in d=10 string theory: how to get the d=4 world as we know it OUT of the theory.

So far there are two main proposals:

1. Roll up the extra dimensions into some very tiny, but nevertheless extremely interesting, space of their own. This is called Kaluza Klein compactification.

2. Make the extra dimensions really big, but constrain all the matter and gravity to propagate in a three dimensional subspace called the three brane.

(For an analogy, your computer screen could be said to be a two brane of three dimensional space.) These types of theories are called braneworlds.

(Super) String Theory Specialists are sometimes called "mediums" -- see my point?

j-

OzMan · 03-15-2005, 12:57 PM

I also come from a physics background and have a longtime interest in things metaphysical. Like many, I have an unquenchable thirst for figuring out how the Universe functions.

My current and ever changing world view is made up of an integration of "acceptable" science with the unproven kooky stuff by what feels right to me. Intuitive reasoning is just as powerful if not more so than reading "proof" from a scientific journal.

On a recent PBS special with Dr. Wayne W. Dyer he expounded on the origins of all matter as energy originating from an absolute source.

One comment he made was:

"As you change the way you look at things, the things you look at change"

I had read this previously in a metaphysical book from the 1920's and many other places in the form of a "think positive" kind of attitude, but it is now apparently a scientific fact as scientists observe the smallest sub-quarks, pions, muons or whatever the hell they are currently called, the behaviour of the particles will actually be affected by the observation of them.

Fascinating stuff

Bird · 03-15-2005, 01:10 PM

http://www.vesselofgod.com/articles/...0_26_5818.html

Long battle between good and evil...

Rich · 03-15-2005, 01:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Huggles

That's deep, man.

We came to be from dust, but where did the dust come from?

Why do I not remember the 6 billion years before the Earth existed?

Why is it that time seems to move so slowly while I am conscious, but while I am unconscious time seems to pass in an instant?

I wonder sometimes if I am just merely a bag of chemicals designed to die out and cease to exist completely?

Does this life mean anything? Are we lied to about God and consequences in order to prevent a total moral and social breakdown?

I think that my drug use has taught me that we can only interpret what our sober human senses allow us to experience.

............

Have you ever read the Doors of Perception?

Rich · 03-15-2005, 01:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Young

I thought I was the only one

hahaha

You're not alone. They play it on my local talk radio station, sometimes it's extremely interesting.

Kristian · 03-15-2005, 01:17 PM

This thread restores my faith in GFY. No in adult webmasters. lol

I'll have to refresh my memory before I can make any intelligent comments.

Some folks might find this page helpful :

http://superstringtheory.com/basics/

Bird · 03-15-2005, 01:17 PM

Have you any idea about Paganism and how its used in Politics, and do you really think that because governments change, power changes as well?

The first Matrix 1999
The Matrix Reloaded May 2003 Solar eclipse
The Matrix Revolutions November the 5th, the date that is called by the ancient peoples and is written in the Mayan calendar as the start of "Revolution of Humanity" the moment of moving from the 4th to the 5th dimension consciouness.
Many peoples around the world have been getting wake-up calls since the eclipse of 1999, and it has been a non stop ride for many.

About the return to the feminine power = Goddesss..

Look at Reloaded what do you See? Images comming from brainless peoples? or do we not see a carefully thought of and researched Movie.
We see the story of the Holy Grail= Meruvingians who in our times are still busy looking for that Holy Grail princess that will restore their wastelands.
We see Pesephone.. who Needs to Feel in order to Remember..
We see Neo who needs to find the Source, which is finding back to himself, for the Source is within and not outside
We see their Love making scene going up in frequency/energy which is felt by the people in the Temple dancing and dancing Feeling good, why because if Neo is the One, than he oozes the Highest energy which ultimatly effects others.
We See the Womb, is temple and maybe even their bedroom, their love making scene is put down as a sacred moment, and if we look at where did they get this from, Inanna/Ishtar, mother goddess is first womb.. check the net about Ishtar Sacred mariage/sex.
We see Trinity she presents the Goddess return in many ways, but you will nee to see the Revolutions to understand this.
We see time does not exist, unless we let it, we see the power of creating your own reality... we see Choice.. we see Cause and effect being repeated in word, simply because that is what humanity is lacking, the knowledge and understanding of Cause and Effect.

They just tapped in the time frame that we are currently in, which started as of the eclipse of August the 11th in 1999, for the whole world.
Hoping that as many people would get it, would understand, Change is not impossible if we would understand how this can be achieved.

Then we also see our poltics changing growing bolder and bolder by the day...they knew about the upcomming Great shift that will raise the consciouness of all peoples.. so what to do...they feared 1999/2000 momentum, creating to the outside world all sorts of stories called the Y2k thing...nothing happened so they sat back and were relaxing... until bang 911 event, and if anyone remembers here the look on the faces of yours truly Biush and friends meaning also the heads in Europe, the first week they had to find ways to deal with this, the second week they started to look tired and older by the end of the first month after the event, all looked well as if they had enjoyed a good holyday smiling and being confident again...with their favorite word Terrorist being thrown at us up to today.. so why the 911? if not to be able to install all sorts of safety measures in our societies.. anti-terrorist laws-funding-regulations etc
But what did they do? sack as many people as possible..strip the people of all basic things..schooling-health-protection-rights.. create new racism by pointing their fingers as usual to Arabs Blacks and all that is not white.
Why? in order to create as much confusion and chaos when the time is there for the big shift.
A people that is asleep, is a people that can be controled and guided into all sorts of behaviours. Create boogie men, and keep the people fearing all and everything.
In short they have installed and will install more prison camp rules, simply because they Fear the Rising of the consciousness of their people..the bible and religion in general was a good help concerning the end of times... making sure that the people who are awake and dare talk to others would not be believed... but because of their own Greed, they took away a bit to much from the common men.. so the sleeping flocks started to question things...but no problem they thught, we will install tagging on the people, by starting with the RFID= electroniacl indentification, tested in the US and Holland and will be in use in China on the people as of 2004. And this counts for us in Europe as well as in the US, if they would have their ways.
Does the above sound like what is she talking about? I advice you to look things up starting with all the new poilicies in your own country.

In short the Matrix is just one of the many tools being used to wake the people up, to make them see things and to make them understand, but as the brothers said; we don't think that to many people will understand, but those who are awake will.
We have a Choice, We are the Masters of our own Universe, and everything we do has an effect, the reality we live in is a Reflection of our Thoughts and Desires, and the last one is the one that is being used against the people for the longest. we are responsible for most that has happen, instead of being leaders of our own world, we needed leaders to tell us what do, think , eat, to live , to wear, to say etc
Now how free is a people that needs others to tell them what to do?

One question.. What would be the right key=frequency to open up the consciousness of the people? Love and its all in and over this movie, and will be the surprise for many, which is a surprise to me, for its all over the movie, and in reality its the only thing missing from humanity as whole... the people forgot so much and Love as well.

Anyway I can go on and on about this...

irishfury · 03-15-2005, 05:02 PM

There is alot of stuff like this cosmic awareness. I forget the series but it's in the first the narrator tells a story where you learn 9 rules...Very intresting stuff.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rutantric

Have you any idea about Paganism and how its used in Politics, and do you really think that because governments change, power changes as well?

The first Matrix 1999
The Matrix Reloaded May 2003 Solar eclipse
The Matrix Revolutions November the 5th, the date that is called by the ancient peoples and is written in the Mayan calendar as the start of "Revolution of Humanity" the moment of moving from the 4th to the 5th dimension consciouness.
Many peoples around the world have been getting wake-up calls since the eclipse of 1999, and it has been a non stop ride for many.

About the return to the feminine power = Goddesss..

Look at Reloaded what do you See? Images comming from brainless peoples? or do we not see a carefully thought of and researched Movie.
We see the story of the Holy Grail= Meruvingians who in our times are still busy looking for that Holy Grail princess that will restore their wastelands.
We see Pesephone.. who Needs to Feel in order to Remember..
We see Neo who needs to find the Source, which is finding back to himself, for the Source is within and not outside
We see their Love making scene going up in frequency/energy which is felt by the people in the Temple dancing and dancing Feeling good, why because if Neo is the One, than he oozes the Highest energy which ultimatly effects others.
We See the Womb, is temple and maybe even their bedroom, their love making scene is put down as a sacred moment, and if we look at where did they get this from, Inanna/Ishtar, mother goddess is first womb.. check the net about Ishtar Sacred mariage/sex.
We see Trinity she presents the Goddess return in many ways, but you will nee to see the Revolutions to understand this.
We see time does not exist, unless we let it, we see the power of creating your own reality... we see Choice.. we see Cause and effect being repeated in word, simply because that is what humanity is lacking, the knowledge and understanding of Cause and Effect.

They just tapped in the time frame that we are currently in, which started as of the eclipse of August the 11th in 1999, for the whole world.
Hoping that as many people would get it, would understand, Change is not impossible if we would understand how this can be achieved.

Then we also see our poltics changing growing bolder and bolder by the day...they knew about the upcomming Great shift that will raise the consciouness of all peoples.. so what to do...they feared 1999/2000 momentum, creating to the outside world all sorts of stories called the Y2k thing...nothing happened so they sat back and were relaxing... until bang 911 event, and if anyone remembers here the look on the faces of yours truly Biush and friends meaning also the heads in Europe, the first week they had to find ways to deal with this, the second week they started to look tired and older by the end of the first month after the event, all looked well as if they had enjoyed a good holyday smiling and being confident again...with their favorite word Terrorist being thrown at us up to today.. so why the 911? if not to be able to install all sorts of safety measures in our societies.. anti-terrorist laws-funding-regulations etc
But what did they do? sack as many people as possible..strip the people of all basic things..schooling-health-protection-rights.. create new racism by pointing their fingers as usual to Arabs Blacks and all that is not white.
Why? in order to create as much confusion and chaos when the time is there for the big shift.
A people that is asleep, is a people that can be controled and guided into all sorts of behaviours. Create boogie men, and keep the people fearing all and everything.
In short they have installed and will install more prison camp rules, simply because they Fear the Rising of the consciousness of their people..the bible and religion in general was a good help concerning the end of times... making sure that the people who are awake and dare talk to others would not be believed... but because of their own Greed, they took away a bit to much from the common men.. so the sleeping flocks started to question things...but no problem they thught, we will install tagging on the people, by starting with the RFID= electroniacl indentification, tested in the US and Holland and will be in use in China on the people as of 2004. And this counts for us in Europe as well as in the US, if they would have their ways.
Does the above sound like what is she talking about? I advice you to look things up starting with all the new poilicies in your own country.

In short the Matrix is just one of the many tools being used to wake the people up, to make them see things and to make them understand, but as the brothers said; we don't think that to many people will understand, but those who are awake will.
We have a Choice, We are the Masters of our own Universe, and everything we do has an effect, the reality we live in is a Reflection of our Thoughts and Desires, and the last one is the one that is being used against the people for the longest. we are responsible for most that has happen, instead of being leaders of our own world, we needed leaders to tell us what do, think , eat, to live , to wear, to say etc
Now how free is a people that needs others to tell them what to do?

One question.. What would be the right key=frequency to open up the consciousness of the people? Love and its all in and over this movie, and will be the surprise for many, which is a surprise to me, for its all over the movie, and in reality its the only thing missing from humanity as whole... the people forgot so much and Love as well.

Anyway I can go on and on about this...

2HousePlague · 03-15-2005, 11:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by OzMan

I also come from a physics background and have a longtime interest in things metaphysical...

I had read this previously in a metaphysical book from the 1920's and many other places in the form of a "think positive" kind of attitude, but it is now apparently a scientific fact as scientists observe the smallest sub-quarks, pions, muons or whatever the hell they are currently called, the behaviour of the particles will actually be affected by the observation of them.

Fascinating stuff

I think they call that the Heisenberg Principle:

"You may not touch (or verify, or measure, or gain any insight whatsoever) without TRANSFORMING that which you touch."

The implication of Heisenberg to String Theory is rather startling.

If we accept Heisenberg as absolute, then NO perception is EVER pure or objective.

This has the interesting, and dual, consequence of suggesting (i) that ALL OF PHYSICS has ALWAYS been flawed, for never building on TRUE OBSERVATION, and (ii) that a method of INDIRECT CONTACT with phenomena might be the ONLY way to REALLY SEE them.

j-

2HousePlague · 03-24-2005, 11:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brujah

J, if you see the movie please post what you thought. I've seen it twice and loved it.

I just watched it.

Thanks so much for the recommendation.

It was encouraging and illuminating to hear so many lucid viewpoints on the question I tried to embrace above.

I guess the difference between religion and science may even be observed right here in this thread...

Let's begin with the basic enquiry: How did I come to watch the film "What the @#%#!$%# ???", tonight?

Traditional Science would have to consider the mechanics of the posts and responses within the thread, and therefore try to describe the relationships between the participants within this thread, on the basis of JUST the observable phenomena -- their posts and replies.

Religion is, necessarily, looking beyond the bounds of "Science", into realms about which we have no data, in which there are no observable phenomena, to seek a LARGER significance to the things Science "sees".

Consider the interaction between us (you and I)...

I know only that you are "Brujah", and whatever I may know or infer about you from the "signs" you have left here.

Science is looking only at the "signs", sometimes, sadly, believing that there is no TRUTH beyond those signs.

Religions is recognizing them AS signs, and asking: "...of what?"

j-

rickholio · 03-25-2005, 12:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 2HousePlague

Science is looking only at the "signs", sometimes, sadly, believing that there is no TRUTH beyond those signs.

Religions is recognizing them AS signs, and asking: "...of what?"

I don't think it's fair to claim that science "isn't seeing the forest for the trees", so to speak. Individual pursuits may build up incomplete understanding of underlying principles, but invariably someone comes along who "sees farther" and takes things to the next level. Who knows who'll be the next aristotle, copernicus, or einstein.

I've also noticed that your treatment of 'religion' is that of a pure abstract. Conventional real-world religions may house theologans that pursue studies in what I would more properly consider as metaphysical philosophy, but they seem to be something of an anachronism these days. The practical application of religion lately is as a means of control over a large populace that lacks the time, talent or motivation to understand the world independantly. Sadly, it appears that real religion often only delves into philosophy as a device to bamboozle the doubter back into the fold.

I would say that science and religion can overlap, but that the overlap exists in that grey-zone of philosophy and conjecture (in my mind, I'm seeing a venn diagram). Science tries to pull as much of itself out of that area as possible by providing proof to its postulates but is inexorably drawn back in by the innate need to imagine "what if...?" in order to progress, and religion tries to push as much of itself into that area as it can but inevitably has to be drawn back out to confront real-world situations (and is deliberately shoved out when it's being used as a bludgeon to control people's thoughts and actions).

xclusive · 03-25-2005, 12:37 AM

Great thread I also listen to coasttocoastam and have for years

SmokeyTheBear · 03-25-2005, 12:42 AM

im prepared

rickholio · 03-25-2005, 12:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SmokeyTheBear

im prepared

Start theorizing.

OzMan · 03-25-2005, 01:26 AM

How refreshing to see a practical application of String Theory, thanks Smokey.

Actually the back of my desk looks very similiar, except all that is holding it together is gravity, a smidgeon of dark matter and my thought energy reinforced daily that all is well...

Also, good post rickholio. I don't think Jack was entirely saying Religion and Metaphysics should be lumped together as the opposite of Science although I can see some parts that seem to imply this. Religion in its outward, stagnant, dogma encrusted sense is mostly about regurgitating vague shallow concepts. I think of metaphysics as actively and dynamically trying to provide us with increasingly more detailed information on the workings of the stuff that science can't prove yet.

But as always it's not the information source, it's what you do with it and if it helps you to live your life better then it works for you.

Kevsh · 03-25-2005, 01:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 2HousePlague

Thoughts?

I'm not sure what to say, your entire post went right over my feeble mind.

rickholio · 03-25-2005, 02:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by OzMan

Actually the back of my desk looks very similiar, except all that is holding it together is gravity, a smidgeon of dark matter and my thought energy reinforced daily that all is well...

Sounds like a variation on the "Held together with duct-tape, spit and a prayer" theory.

Quote:

Also, good post rickholio. I don't think Jack was entirely saying Religion and Metaphysics should be lumped together as the opposite of Science although I can see some parts that seem to imply this. Religion in its outward, stagnant, dogma encrusted sense is mostly about regurgitating vague shallow concepts. I think of metaphysics as actively and dynamically trying to provide us with increasingly more detailed information on the workings of the stuff that science can't prove yet.

I wasn't trying to be antagonistic, just pointing out that there was a schism between the application of 'religion' as a concept here versus what much of the world considers it. Indeed, I believe that those philosophical pursuits shared by secular and ecumenical thinkers in tandem help propell us forward culturally, by providing us both scientific advancements and a framework in which to digest and control them.

The scary thing is that philosophy lately seems to be getting trumped by 'common wisdom', which is just a code word for intolerance. The philosophical side has been lax in its duties to provide more nuanced and perfected ways of processing our ever more nuanced and complex planet. As a result, witness the resurgence of the "Ignern't and Proud" mob, public support for the purging of 'intellectuals' from various positions of power and other KhmerRouge-esqe precursors. Pointing this stuff out doesn't add much to a conversation about the abstract goals and admixture of religion and science, so I won't drag this point out.

Quote:

But as always it's not the information source, it's what you do with it and if it helps you to live your life better then it works for you.

Assuming that the information given isn't pure bullshit. It'd have to suck if you built a great life only to find out later on that it's all based on a lie.

03-15-2005, 12:09 AM	#1
2HousePlague CURATOR Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: the attic Posts: 14,572	String Theory IS RELIGION (controversy) I'm kind of a physics geek, as some of you know. But, I left the academic world before String Theory had come into the public attention. In the intervening years, I experienced some (let's call them) Epiphanies of a highly spiritual order. I'm not talking about seeing Jesus on the Subway, or any such nonsense. I mean acquiring a deep-seated sense of unseen things being true. Anyway, when I first heard about String Theory, I didn't immediately see it for what I now believe it is. Then, I thought it was just among the more "loosely proven" quantum theories I'd come across. But now, a couple more years later, I see String Theory for exactly what it is... The tenuous grazing of Science's long-reaching finger-nail against the Dome of the Divine. I know that horrifies some of you. But, hear me out: Without belaboring this thread with a lengthy description of String Theory, it is, essentially, the "Biggest Quantum Theory Ever" AND the only theory to ever RECONCILE all the previously irreconcilable sub-theories to each other. String Theory also turned out to be what I first thought it was: "The Most Loosely-Proven Quantum Theory" I have ever seen. String Theory contains some of the most speculative, inferential science that has ever achieved popular recognition. It is, I believe, sufficiently different from any quantum theory before it to qualify for re-categorization as MetaPhysics (and see definition #3 below) String Theory, I'm asserting, is the first Theory Regarding the Origin and Opreration of the Universe to come out of science that requires more faith than science to appreciate. These days it seems all I talk about are things coming together -- usually with good results. I guess I'm just looking for where the lines are getting blurry. But, it seems to me, we are at a crossroads now where Science and Religion can begin to exchange some each other's strengths -- in the pursuit of even higher ambitions of understanding than either has ever sought before. Thoughts? j- ________________________________ met·a·phys·ics ( P ) Pronunciation Key (mt-fzks) n. 1. (used with a sing. verb) Philosophy. The branch of philosophy that examines the nature of reality, including the relationship between mind and matter, substance and attribute, fact and value. 2. (used with a pl. verb) The theoretical or first principles of a particular discipline: the metaphysics of law. 3. (used with a sing. verb) A priori speculation upon questions that are unanswerable to scientific observation, analysis, or experiment. 4. (used with a sing. verb) Excessively subtle or recondite reasoning. __________________ tada!

03-15-2005, 12:13 AM	#2
Young Bland for life Industry Role: Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 10,468	Interesting...but why waste our times trying to figure it out? By the time we fully understand it we'll probaly be gone. Where can i read up more? __________________ ★★★

03-15-2005, 12:23 AM	#4
Brujah Beer Money Baron Industry Role: Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: brujah / gmail Posts: 22,157	What the @#%#!$%# ??? http://www.whatthebleep.com/ __________________ Free Premium Domain Lists and Tools at Clickmojo.com For Sale: Obscenity.com

03-15-2005, 12:31 AM	#5
nofx Too lazy to set a custom title Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Virgin Mary's womb Posts: 16,826	how much lsd did you do before you "experienced some Epiphanies of a highly spiritual order." ? __________________ Often times I wonder why There's love and hate, theres live or die. When sickness comes I must decide: When feelings go, theres suicide.

03-15-2005, 12:42 AM	#6
AlienQ - BANNED FOR LIFE best designer on GFY Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: IALIEN.COM - High Definition Video and Photographic Productions -ICQ 78943384 Posts: 30,307	This is unusual... __________________ NAKED HOSTING FTW!11 I'm On The INSANE PLAN $9.95/mo! \| The Alien Blog Adult News Worth Reading Updated Daily \| Content For Sale! 641 PICS 216 MINUTES OF VIDEO $350.00 \|ICQ: 78943384 \|

03-15-2005, 12:44 AM	#7
NaughtyRob Two fresh affiliate progs Industry Role: Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Inside teen pussy Posts: 29,602	I have heard many talks about this on coasttocoastam. Fascinating stuff. __________________ [email protected] Skype: 17026955414 Vacares Web Hosting - Protect Your Ass with Included Daily Backups

03-15-2005, 12:55 AM	#9
Huggles GFY'S #1 retard Industry Role: Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Kelowna Posts: 11,122	That's deep, man. We came to be from dust, but where did the dust come from? Why do I not remember the 6 billion years before the Earth existed? Why is it that time seems to move so slowly while I am conscious, but while I am unconscious time seems to pass in an instant? I wonder sometimes if I am just merely a bag of chemicals designed to die out and cease to exist completely? Does this life mean anything? Are we lied to about God and consequences in order to prevent a total moral and social breakdown? I think that my drug use has taught me that we can only interpret what our sober human senses allow us to experience. ............ __________________ https://3-veo.com/ The best AI video maker portal.

03-15-2005, 01:01 AM	#12
effer Confirmed User Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 135	http://www.stardrive.org/title.shtml A great site to read. Jack Sarfatti is an amazing writer. I got interested in him when I happened across one of his notorious flame wars on USENET. The man is a genius and his articles are very thought provoking. __________________ www.RapidTeens.com Last edited by effer; 03-15-2005 at 01:04 AM.. Reason: whoops spelling..

03-15-2005, 01:07 AM	#13
Brujah Beer Money Baron Industry Role: Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: brujah / gmail Posts: 22,157	What the Bleep Do We Know? says that science and spirituality are not different modes of thought, but are in fact describing the same thing. And it brings the power back to the individual man and woman as it demonstrates creation as the god-like capacity of every individual. This outrageous film plunges you into a world where quantum uncertainty is demonstrated hahaha8211; where neurological processes, and perceptual shifts are engaged and lived by its protagonist - where everything is alive, and reality is changed by every thought. __________________ Free Premium Domain Lists and Tools at Clickmojo.com For Sale: Obscenity.com

03-15-2005, 01:09 AM	#14
Brujah Beer Money Baron Industry Role: Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: brujah / gmail Posts: 22,157	J, if you see the movie please post what you thought. I've seen it twice and loved it. __________________ Free Premium Domain Lists and Tools at Clickmojo.com For Sale: Obscenity.com

03-15-2005, 01:15 AM	#16
irishfury Confirmed User Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: In the hearts of cowards Posts: 2,611	I love stuff like this. Specially string theory has been around long time. Bosonic String Theory Ect. I also believe the Physics is the blue print to truth of existence. Though it may not be that far off in future as people believe. With Quantom Computing, Mechanics ect..... __________________ Trust no one there all snakes

03-15-2005, 02:13 AM	#17
Downtime Confirmed User Industry Role: Join Date: May 2004 Location: America. Posts: 7,320	I'm obsessed with this topic too! I've already read Elegant Universe by Brian Greene and I literally just picked up the Fabric of the Cosmos tonight at Borders. This could be a good thread! __________________ #27024067

03-15-2005, 03:27 AM	#18
Arousal Design Confirmed User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Connecticut. Posts: 1,358	You've got a great point, ... Faith is at its core simply believing.... and string theory requires a lot of it! I'm very intrigued by String Theory though =) Well put. __________________ Make Major Bank With Major Personality - NaughtyBank! Featuring NaughtyAllie and NaughtyJulie!

03-15-2005, 04:24 AM	#19
junction Confirmed User Industry Role: Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Midwest Posts: 2,411	I have 3 words for everyone: Dr. Michio Kaku Last edited by junction; 03-15-2005 at 04:26 AM..

03-15-2005, 05:51 AM	#20
jollyperv Confirmed User Industry Role: Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: NYC Posts: 3,927	http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/elegant/ There's 4 hours of video on here, but be warned...you'll get sucked right in and have to sit through the whole thing.

03-15-2005, 08:47 AM	#23
Buddy Confirmed User Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: FlashCa$h Headquarters Posts: 1,828	The part that bothers me is that we will likely not have these answers in my lifetime. But in the end the answers will be found. Nothing can stand up to the scientific method. The problem is that the scientific method takes time, lots of it, and while we are going through that process everyone will be speculating on what the end result will be based on what little evidence we have at the moment. I have a feeling that in the end, if we are there for it, we would laugh at what we are predicting right now, because it is a prediction based on such a small piece of the whole picture. I think the string theory or more so the M theory has the potential to be the unifying theory that science has been searching for. It has the potential to expose so many unknown wonders of the universe, but in the end how will it effect everyday life? Knowing that there are 7 dimensions that we don't interact with, but that exist none the less doesn't change that fact that I have to go to work eveyday to feed my kids. In that way M theory might be a lot like religion, it can give you a frame from which to view the world, but you still have to live your life. Neither god nor m theory are going to feed you. __________________ -165486536 Disce quotidie * Ride quotidie * Ama quotidie * Cresce quotidie FlashCa$h Who the hell am I?

03-15-2005, 08:52 AM	#24
Tom_PM Porn Meister Industry Role: Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 16,443	Good vibrations, baby. I was going to post the PBS link, but I see it here already. Get off my string. __________________ 43-922-863 Shut up and play your guitar.

03-15-2005, 08:54 AM	#25
Buddy Confirmed User Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: FlashCa$h Headquarters Posts: 1,828	Another thought that just struck me is that religion is based on faith. At least most are. You don't need to have faith in science, you can test it yourself. You may need access to an atom smasher, but you can at least read the abstracts from the people that do test the theorys and see what evidence they present. So the element of faith is removed. In that way I don't think that science and religion are on the verge of meeting, no matter how cool and magical the things hinted at by the m theory seem. __________________ -165486536 Disce quotidie * Ride quotidie * Ama quotidie * Cresce quotidie FlashCa$h Who the hell am I?

03-15-2005, 08:54 AM	#26
swedguy Confirmed User Industry Role: Join Date: Jan 2002 Posts: 7,981	I like strings, therefore I'm a believer!

03-15-2005, 08:58 AM	#27
swedguy Confirmed User Industry Role: Join Date: Jan 2002 Posts: 7,981	Can someone send me a box of LSD and I will solve this BEFORE the box is empty? http://superstringtheory.com/

03-15-2005, 10:59 AM	#31
Kristian Confirmed User Industry Role: Join Date: Aug 2003 Posts: 3,733	I saw a docu on this about a year ago. The originator of String Theory blew people away when it was released. I like the idea that we could communicate with parallel universes by something akin to a phone! Amazing stuff.

03-15-2005, 11:01 AM	#32
wdsguy Ryde or Die Industry Role: Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: California-Shanghai Posts: 19,568	http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/elegant/program.html

03-15-2005, 12:02 PM	#33
huey Confirmed User Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: vancouver Posts: 3,801	Im down with 11 dimensions. __________________ opinions are like assholes................. "They aren't after me, they are AFTER YOU! Im just in their way" -D.J. Trump

03-15-2005, 12:57 PM	#35
OzMan Confirmed User Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Los Begas Posts: 9,162	I also come from a physics background and have a longtime interest in things metaphysical. Like many, I have an unquenchable thirst for figuring out how the Universe functions. My current and ever changing world view is made up of an integration of "acceptable" science with the unproven kooky stuff by what feels right to me. Intuitive reasoning is just as powerful if not more so than reading "proof" from a scientific journal. On a recent PBS special with Dr. Wayne W. Dyer he expounded on the origins of all matter as energy originating from an absolute source. One comment he made was: "As you change the way you look at things, the things you look at change" I had read this previously in a metaphysical book from the 1920's and many other places in the form of a "think positive" kind of attitude, but it is now apparently a scientific fact as scientists observe the smallest sub-quarks, pions, muons or whatever the hell they are currently called, the behaviour of the particles will actually be affected by the observation of them. Fascinating stuff

03-15-2005, 01:10 PM	#36
Bird Confirmed User Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Stockton Posts: 4,365	Theory of Everthing http://www.vesselofgod.com/articles/...0_26_5818.html Long battle between good and evil...

03-15-2005, 01:17 PM	#39
Kristian Confirmed User Industry Role: Join Date: Aug 2003 Posts: 3,733	This thread restores my faith in GFY. No in adult webmasters. lol I'll have to refresh my memory before I can make any intelligent comments. Some folks might find this page helpful : http://superstringtheory.com/basics/

03-15-2005, 01:17 PM	#40
Bird Confirmed User Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Stockton Posts: 4,365	Wake up calls Have you any idea about Paganism and how its used in Politics, and do you really think that because governments change, power changes as well? The first Matrix 1999 The Matrix Reloaded May 2003 Solar eclipse The Matrix Revolutions November the 5th, the date that is called by the ancient peoples and is written in the Mayan calendar as the start of "Revolution of Humanity" the moment of moving from the 4th to the 5th dimension consciouness. Many peoples around the world have been getting wake-up calls since the eclipse of 1999, and it has been a non stop ride for many. About the return to the feminine power = Goddesss.. Look at Reloaded what do you See? Images comming from brainless peoples? or do we not see a carefully thought of and researched Movie. We see the story of the Holy Grail= Meruvingians who in our times are still busy looking for that Holy Grail princess that will restore their wastelands. We see Pesephone.. who Needs to Feel in order to Remember.. We see Neo who needs to find the Source, which is finding back to himself, for the Source is within and not outside We see their Love making scene going up in frequency/energy which is felt by the people in the Temple dancing and dancing Feeling good, why because if Neo is the One, than he oozes the Highest energy which ultimatly effects others. We See the Womb, is temple and maybe even their bedroom, their love making scene is put down as a sacred moment, and if we look at where did they get this from, Inanna/Ishtar, mother goddess is first womb.. check the net about Ishtar Sacred mariage/sex. We see Trinity she presents the Goddess return in many ways, but you will nee to see the Revolutions to understand this. We see time does not exist, unless we let it, we see the power of creating your own reality... we see Choice.. we see Cause and effect being repeated in word, simply because that is what humanity is lacking, the knowledge and understanding of Cause and Effect. They just tapped in the time frame that we are currently in, which started as of the eclipse of August the 11th in 1999, for the whole world. Hoping that as many people would get it, would understand, Change is not impossible if we would understand how this can be achieved. Then we also see our poltics changing growing bolder and bolder by the day...they knew about the upcomming Great shift that will raise the consciouness of all peoples.. so what to do...they feared 1999/2000 momentum, creating to the outside world all sorts of stories called the Y2k thing...nothing happened so they sat back and were relaxing... until bang 911 event, and if anyone remembers here the look on the faces of yours truly Biush and friends meaning also the heads in Europe, the first week they had to find ways to deal with this, the second week they started to look tired and older by the end of the first month after the event, all looked well as if they had enjoyed a good holyday smiling and being confident again...with their favorite word Terrorist being thrown at us up to today.. so why the 911? if not to be able to install all sorts of safety measures in our societies.. anti-terrorist laws-funding-regulations etc But what did they do? sack as many people as possible..strip the people of all basic things..schooling-health-protection-rights.. create new racism by pointing their fingers as usual to Arabs Blacks and all that is not white. Why? in order to create as much confusion and chaos when the time is there for the big shift. A people that is asleep, is a people that can be controled and guided into all sorts of behaviours. Create boogie men, and keep the people fearing all and everything. In short they have installed and will install more prison camp rules, simply because they Fear the Rising of the consciousness of their people..the bible and religion in general was a good help concerning the end of times... making sure that the people who are awake and dare talk to others would not be believed... but because of their own Greed, they took away a bit to much from the common men.. so the sleeping flocks started to question things...but no problem they thught, we will install tagging on the people, by starting with the RFID= electroniacl indentification, tested in the US and Holland and will be in use in China on the people as of 2004. And this counts for us in Europe as well as in the US, if they would have their ways. Does the above sound like what is she talking about? I advice you to look things up starting with all the new poilicies in your own country. In short the Matrix is just one of the many tools being used to wake the people up, to make them see things and to make them understand, but as the brothers said; we don't think that to many people will understand, but those who are awake will. We have a Choice, We are the Masters of our own Universe, and everything we do has an effect, the reality we live in is a Reflection of our Thoughts and Desires, and the last one is the one that is being used against the people for the longest. we are responsible for most that has happen, instead of being leaders of our own world, we needed leaders to tell us what do, think , eat, to live , to wear, to say etc Now how free is a people that needs others to tell them what to do? One question.. What would be the right key=frequency to open up the consciousness of the people? Love and its all in and over this movie, and will be the surprise for many, which is a surprise to me, for its all over the movie, and in reality its the only thing missing from humanity as whole... the people forgot so much and Love as well. Anyway I can go on and on about this...

03-25-2005, 12:37 AM	#45
xclusive Too lazy to set a custom title Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Buffalo, NY Posts: 35,218	Great thread I also listen to coasttocoastam and have for years __________________ I support MediumPimpin.com / Shemp's Outlawtgp.com /

03-25-2005, 12:42 AM	#46
SmokeyTheBear ►SouthOfHeaven Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: PlanetEarth MyBoardRank: GerbilMaster My-Penis-Size: extralarge MyWeapon: Computer Posts: 28,609	im prepared __________________ hatisblack at yahoo.com Last edited by SmokeyTheBear; 03-25-2005 at 12:43 AM..

03-25-2005, 01:26 AM	#48
OzMan Confirmed User Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Los Begas Posts: 9,162	How refreshing to see a practical application of String Theory, thanks Smokey. Actually the back of my desk looks very similiar, except all that is holding it together is gravity, a smidgeon of dark matter and my thought energy reinforced daily that all is well... Also, good post rickholio. I don't think Jack was entirely saying Religion and Metaphysics should be lumped together as the opposite of Science although I can see some parts that seem to imply this. Religion in its outward, stagnant, dogma encrusted sense is mostly about regurgitating vague shallow concepts. I think of metaphysics as actively and dynamically trying to provide us with increasingly more detailed information on the workings of the stuff that science can't prove yet. But as always it's not the information source, it's what you do with it and if it helps you to live your life better then it works for you.