Just saw Hotel Riwanda - Page 2 - GoFuckYourself.com

Workshop_Willy · 03-07-2005, 07:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rich

The whole world can't be summed up with a two page article on the internet my friend, the real world isn't that simple. If you want to learn about the WB and IMF's policy for Africa I suggest taking a university course, or do a lot of reading. Unfortunately not everything can be explained to you in a five minute CNN summary or internet article.

Of course, we'd all be thrilled to hear what your idea of the World Bank's Africa policy is. I'm sure it's based on minutes of research.

So in short (so to speak

) you have nothing to back this up. Thought so. It's one thing to have theories, but you must state that they are your theories or at least theories that you subscribe to. Flat out stating that they are truth is basically lying.

So, here's your chance. Link us up with as many links as you think are necessary to paint the picture, and tie them together for us. After all, you're the educated chap and we're the simpletons. You must have LOTS of links and book references for us, right? So lay some of them on us. Really, we can read. Honest.

Rich · 03-07-2005, 08:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Workshop_Willy

So in short (so to speak

) you have nothing to back this up. Thought so. It's one thing to have theories, but you must state that they are your theories or at least theories that you subscribe to. Flat out stating that they are truth is basically lying.

So, here's your chance. Link us up with as many links as you think are necessary to paint the picture, and tie them together for us. After all, you're the educated chap and we're the simpletons. You must have LOTS of links and book references for us, right? So lay some of them on us. Really, we can read. Honest.

Believe me when I tell you that I'm not here to educate you, I don't care what you believe. If you want to educate yourself, take some university courses, it's not as if knowing that the western world does terrible things in Africa is a big secret among the educated class. Or keep watching TV a lot and being an uninformed fool, it's up to you, and it makes no difference in my life.

Once again, we'd all be thrilled to hear what your idea of the World Bank's Africa policy is. Tell us oh wise one, about how they educate the evil heathen children and do their best to stop poverty and aids. Links to oversimplified, one page news articles on corporate news sites will be a big plus.

Workshop_Willy · 03-07-2005, 08:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rich

Believe me when I tell you that I'm not here to educate you, I don't care what you believe. If you want to educate yourself, take some university courses, it's not as if knowing that the western world does terrible things in Africa is a big secret among the educated class. Or keep watching TV a lot and being an uninformed fool, it's up to you, and it makes no difference in my life.

Once again, we'd all be thrilled to hear what your idea of the World Bank's Africa policy is. Tell us oh wise one, about how they educate the evil heathen children and do their best to stop poverty and aids. Links to oversimplified, one page news articles on corporate news sites will be a big plus.

Out of the Frying Pan and back into the Fire

rambler · 03-07-2005, 08:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Workshop_Willy

Out of the Frying Pan and back into the Fire

Now we know how things work in your little mind.

It seems that if you can't win an arguement with somebody, all you have to do is to keep saying that you have beaten them and then it becomes true (in your mind, anyways).

I wish I was as simple-minded as you...it sure would save me from having to use my head.

Rich · 03-07-2005, 09:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rambler

Now we know how things work in your little mind.

It seems that if you can't win an arguement with somebody, all you have to do is to keep saying that you have beaten them and then it becomes true (in your mind, anyways).

I wish I was as simple-minded as you...it sure would save me from having to use my head.

That appears to be his M.O. Apparently I've been owned, had my ass handed to me, and been put on the fire. Funny thing is, I can't find one rational point this character has made.

Boy do I feel stupid.

kane · 03-07-2005, 09:03 PM

I wonder if Rwanda had a very large amount of oil how fast the world would have acted? For that matter I wonder if any of these countries had any large amount of natural resources that the world wanted how much attention would be paid? It's sad, but many countries talk about human rights and protecting people that can't protect themselves but when it comes right down to it, unless there is something in it for them, they don't jump to act.

Rich · 03-07-2005, 09:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kane

I wonder if Rwanda had a very large amount of oil how fast the world would have acted? For that matter I wonder if any of these countries had any large amount of natural resources that the world wanted how much attention would be paid? It's sad, but many countries talk about human rights and protecting people that can't protect themselves but when it comes right down to it, unless there is something in it for them, they don't jump to act.

If they had oil, they would be under the command of a US friendly dictator. As long as the oil was flowing, you wouldn't hear much about the genocide. As soon as the dictator stopped being friendly to the USA, the "liberation" would start, to "save the people". I'm not saying this to be "anti-American", it's an indisputable fact. If America actually cared about human rights they wouldn't prop up dictators like Nursultan Nazarbaev.

I wish more Americans would put their emotions and patriotism aside and take a real look at their foreign policy. That's why they're hated around the world, because they have this amazingly free society and they chose to let the government do whatever the hell it wants to whomever it wants as long as it doesn't disturb them, no matter how badly the foreign people are harmed.

kane · 03-08-2005, 12:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rich

If they had oil, they would be under the command of a US friendly dictator. As long as the oil was flowing, you wouldn't hear much about the genocide. As soon as the dictator stopped being friendly to the USA, the "liberation" would start, to "save the people". I'm not saying this to be "anti-American", it's an indisputable fact. If America actually cared about human rights they wouldn't prop up dictators like Nursultan Nazarbaev.

I wish more Americans would put their emotions and patriotism aside and take a real look at their foreign policy. That's why they're hated around the world, because they have this amazingly free society and they chose to let the government do whatever the hell it wants to whomever it wants as long as it doesn't disturb them, no matter how badly the foreign people are harmed.

I agree. It always reminds me of the old saying that " right now your government is doing things that you thought only other countries did."

broke · 03-08-2005, 01:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kane

I wonder if Rwanda had a very large amount of oil how fast the world would have acted? For that matter I wonder if any of these countries had any large amount of natural resources that the world wanted how much attention would be paid?

You don't have to wonder....

Sudan's oil exports are expected to hit 500,000 bbl/d this year.

How fast have people acted? How much attention is being paid there?

ADL Colin · 03-08-2005, 01:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SykkBoy2

this should have been the Oscar winner instead of the overrated Million Dollar Baby...amazing acting, writing and production.

I agree with that, Sykk.

kane · 03-08-2005, 02:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by broke

You don't have to wonder....

Sudan's oil exports are expected to hit 500,000 bbl/d this year.

How fast have people acted? How much attention is being paid there?

that's a decent number but nothing like the 1.5 million barrels a day that saudi arabia sells just to the US.

Trixxxia · 03-08-2005, 02:54 AM

(here's the link: http://www.cbc.ca/news/background/dallaire/)
The Book is: Shake Hands With the Devil ? The Failure of Humanity in Rwanda

In the book, Dallaire describes the scene on a hill, where even the peace had been murdered.

"It's interesting, at times, when you say there's no finger-pointing. There's no help to point fingers and to lay blame..." he says.

So, who does he blame?

"I blame the American leadership, which includes the Pentagon, in projecting itself as the world policeman one day and a recluse the next," Dallaire says.

"In fact, vulgarly stating in the General Assembly three weeks before the Rwandan genocide and civil war started, I mean, president Clinton saying in the General Assembly that through his Proposition 25 that Americans would go only if it was in their self-interest."

Dallaire's main line of communication with the world was through the department of Peacekeeping Operations at the UN in New York City. Before the war began, Dallaire asked for leave to take pre-emptive action against those he suspected of plotting the genocide. New York told him to back off.

"I think 'let down' is a bit of a soft statement," he says. He feels betrayed. "Undermined. Poorly assessed. Putting into question my skills in the field as a commander, realizing what I was doing and the full consequence of my actions.

"Well, that came through from different sources but it was very much like I wasn't fully grasping the depth of risk to my people. And we had taken some high risks previously in moving the rebel battalion into Kigali and a number of things like that. But it seemed to me I was being assessed as not having thought out my plan appropriately, recognizing that these soldiers are not mine."

As the death toll mounted, General Dallaire submitted a detailed plan for a Rapid Reaction Force. He needed 5,000 soldiers to dismantle the killing machine of the genocidaire and to stop the Hutu power movement. The UN Security Council rejected the plan. The United States even refused to acknowledge the genocide to avoid any legal obligations to help.

broke · 03-08-2005, 12:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kane

that's a decent number but nothing like the 1.5 million barrels a day that saudi arabia sells just to the US.

... but it would place the Sudan seventh on the list of countries that export oil to the US, ahead of ANGOLA, UNITED KINGDOM, ECUADOR, GABON, KUWAIT, ALGERIA, RUSSIA, COLOMBIA, and ARGENTINA in the top 16.

That wasn't your question though...

Your question was -- what would the US and/or world have done if Rwanda had oil or other natural resources?

The answer is probably the same thing.

Hell -- they are doing the same thing as we speak in a country that in 4 years went from pumping virtually no oil and is now pumping 500,000 bbl/d.

03-07-2005, 09:03 PM	#56
kane Too lazy to set a custom title Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: portland, OR Posts: 20,684	I wonder if Rwanda had a very large amount of oil how fast the world would have acted? For that matter I wonder if any of these countries had any large amount of natural resources that the world wanted how much attention would be paid? It's sad, but many countries talk about human rights and protecting people that can't protect themselves but when it comes right down to it, unless there is something in it for them, they don't jump to act.

03-08-2005, 02:54 AM	#62
Trixxxia Confirmed User Industry Role: Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: Montreal, Canada Posts: 5,600	(here's the link: http://www.cbc.ca/news/background/dallaire/) The Book is: Shake Hands With the Devil ? The Failure of Humanity in Rwanda In the book, Dallaire describes the scene on a hill, where even the peace had been murdered. "It's interesting, at times, when you say there's no finger-pointing. There's no help to point fingers and to lay blame..." he says. So, who does he blame? "I blame the American leadership, which includes the Pentagon, in projecting itself as the world policeman one day and a recluse the next," Dallaire says. "In fact, vulgarly stating in the General Assembly three weeks before the Rwandan genocide and civil war started, I mean, president Clinton saying in the General Assembly that through his Proposition 25 that Americans would go only if it was in their self-interest." Dallaire's main line of communication with the world was through the department of Peacekeeping Operations at the UN in New York City. Before the war began, Dallaire asked for leave to take pre-emptive action against those he suspected of plotting the genocide. New York told him to back off. "I think 'let down' is a bit of a soft statement," he says. He feels betrayed. "Undermined. Poorly assessed. Putting into question my skills in the field as a commander, realizing what I was doing and the full consequence of my actions. "Well, that came through from different sources but it was very much like I wasn't fully grasping the depth of risk to my people. And we had taken some high risks previously in moving the rebel battalion into Kigali and a number of things like that. But it seemed to me I was being assessed as not having thought out my plan appropriately, recognizing that these soldiers are not mine." As the death toll mounted, General Dallaire submitted a detailed plan for a Rapid Reaction Force. He needed 5,000 soldiers to dismantle the killing machine of the genocidaire and to stop the Hutu power movement. The UN Security Council rejected the plan. The United States even refused to acknowledge the genocide to avoid any legal obligations to help.