Since this conversation seems to be going onandonandonandonandonandon... yet going nowhere, I'll add in a bit of insight about newly recruited models.

Most of the girls that indicate to me they are interested have never had any previous experience. They truly are young and naive in this regard. As for the girls that have done modelling before, most of them have worked in the mainstream industry and they too have no experience with adult work. All of the girls have pre-conceived notions about the internet and about how their pictures might be used.

Therefore it is up to me, the photographer to hold their hand and keep their best interests at heart, and actually teach them about how things really do work on the net.

I believe that it's up to us to also keep an eye out for potential dishonest sharks as well. Case in point: One of my sites is a modelling database, so this site offers the girls an extra opportunity to be promoted online and make some extra money. BUT, when an offer comes to me for one of the girls (happens from time to time), I in effect become their agent, so it is up to me to determine whether the work is right for them, and whether or not the person asking is honest and on the up-and-up.

Saying these girls are "18 and defiant of adults" or whatever is imaterial in this situation. I could say my banker is a bad father so why should I pay my mortgage? Duh. The girls need to be looked after, at least in the beginning, until they get a sense of what this big ol' game is about.

I too would be outraged if one of my models had a bad experience from someone I had referred her to, and I'd certainly never do business with them again. If the infraction was bad enough I would consider further action against them as well. (read into that what you will)

The most important elements of this end of the business are honesty, integrity, professionalism, and some caring would be nice to see in there as well. Yes, the girls love to get paid the nice money, but they shouldn't be subject to being taken advantage of just because this is the adult industry. No wonder so many new people have such wild misconceptions about what it is we do, because sometimes they aren't misconceptions at all.
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Well said AMP :-)

I despise snakes as people, I hate to see users win, and I'm against many shady business practices...but that doesn't mean that they go away. Naivete is not a survival skill. I'm aware of only two cures for these instances, knowledge and experience.

Unseen, I'm happy that you take inexperienced people under your wing to teach and prepare. I try to do what parents neglect to do as well in other business situations. But that is not the norm, and I'm surprised by anyone who thinks it is. Would the world be a better place if it was the norm?...I hope so. But nontheless, there will always be the ladder of success, the food chain from one end to the other. And even if one species is irradicated, something else moves into take it's place.

'Tis the story of the world.

Snakes have existed for over 100 million years, and I'm not expecing their demise anytime soon.

hmmm...

OK, the plane has safely landed and I have caught up on the replies. Not so much negative shit anymore. http://bbs.gofuckyourself.net/board/smile.gif The one thing I would like to point out is the referred the girl to Unseen but he DID NOT refer her to the "snakes" She found the ad on her own.

CDSmith, you are absolutely right with every word you type. Unseen and I both follow the same guidelines you mention but the girls sometimes have to find out the hard way. It sucks but it is reality.

I somewhat agree but I bet a bunch of guys (especially pervs) can be intimidating to a young girl. At least she should learn from this experience and she'll know better next time.



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Intelligent people don't have an IQ complex either.

In any case this thread is pathetic -- it's a whole lot of "he said she said bullshit".

One model told me she was asked to give this scumbag photographer a blowjob before he would shoot her pics -- yeah -- and I called that guy -- his name is Dank -- we are having lunch on Tuesday -- the girl was ok with the blowjob but wasn't expecting a load of cum in her mouth -- the way she described it gave me a boner -- she kindof complained to me saying that more experienced girls may like the taste of cum -- but she's pretty shy -- I was really suprised -- but now I'm thinking -- damn that guy got a blowjob -- and I didn't get one... damn if I wasn't so nurturing... fuck.

(sarcasm off)

Hehe... I can't believe you guys are so worked up about this... watch these girls play innocent for you nice guys... I've met some really fucking "innocent" young girls -- they play the part beautifully -- they know how to sucker nice nurturing guys -- trust me I'm one of them -- you would be suprised now innocent they REALLY are... give me a break -- don't be a sucker. This thread is testament to male lameness.

These girls didn't grow up on "Leave it to Beaver"... They grew up on fucking Jerry Springer and Al Bundy.

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There is an exception to every rule. Once again you are responding without knowing the whole story and you are straying from the topic of the "Snakes" But, since you brought it up.... What if I told you that she grew up in a strict mormon houshold with 11 siblings? No boyfriends, no TV, no nothing. Leave it to beaver is hard core compared to how some people are raised. The girl in question is not your average model. Now, lets get back to the snake stuff.

I am currious what kind of horror stories are out there and how many of them are a actually true.

[This message has been edited by AaronM (edited 11-12-2001).]

Actually, our model became aware of this thread and wrote a lengthy reply without knowing (since she's new at this sort of stuff) that she needed to get a handle first, and then she was out of time to reenter her thoughts. However, I hope she'll get a handle and give it another try.

Unseen-

No offense but you took the story of this girl and threw it to the wolves and now she's personally getting involved in the discussion?...........In my opinion....bad idea.

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mormonporn.com -- you would be suprised how many performers you would get. Maybe I should register repressedpriestpenis.com too... how about shamefulcatholicgirls.com ?!

Anyway I hope we get to hear from the model soon! Now she can claim her fame!

Also I would like to know if she has ever seen a man naked.

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Getting into the business was her choice, as she will be happy to tell you.

As long as there are teen sites, and as long as it's legal to shoot 18 and 19 year old girls, someone will do it. She would also tell you she could do a lot worse than working with me, based on her experiences so far.

So, at any rate, before you get any false allegations going. I was her first photographer, but I didn't "get her into the business." She has found my counsel useful and after this experience, I'm sure she has not only listened to my own advice but revised her own standards as to who to work with.

Anyway, I do pretty girl photography. I have steered her clear of the extreme end of the business, which I would do with a female of any age wanting to get into the business. Once a guy (or a dog or horse) gets into the frame, she's in a whole different ballpark, not that she would consider any of those options anyway.

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Here's Ethics 101 from a guy who's actually qualified to teach it (M.A. in philsophy): tricking someone into doing something by withholding essential information actually IS a way of forcing them to do it.



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Good, you've put us all on notice what your business ethics are like: every man for himself. The Law of the Jungle.



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Your sentiments are pretty much mine exactly. Yesterday, I had to tell her that despite her apprehensiveness about the photographers in the business (by which I mean the real photographers, not some bozo with a $150 digital shooting with built-in flash in a basement somewhere), we photographers are absolute seraphim by comparison with many (not all, of course) webmasters, who are often 10 times more perverted and 10 times less honest than the typical professional photographers.

There's a saying, "Character is what you have when the lights go out." In other words, applied to this situation, it says a lot about your character when you see a young beginner in what can be the roughest and riskiest part of this industry (the model/performer) whether you see her as someone you want to protect and guide or someone who merely represents a chump to be exploited.

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I have seen the pictures she did with them (she did video with them as well, as she has with me). Knowing her as I do, I can see the discomfort in her face. She was not totally sure of herself and was just getting through it. Yes, she saw it as a job and did what she needed to do to earn her pay (which I understand was also a bit less than she had been led to believe). She has learned from the situation and is being more careful, but some of the ethical midgets on this board almost see it as necessary for there to be piranha in the busines.

I've heard from Aaron that these guys are pretty much "newbie" webmasters, but I don't think ethics has anything to do with being a newbie or experienced. It's supposed to be an innate sense, and apparently some people learn it at home and some don't.

I'm willing to bet these guys didn't learn much about ethics at home, because their last insult was to ask her to get undressed again and pose (unpaid, mind you) with the site operator's father. She was smart enough to take a pass on that one.

How cheezy can you get?

They were not very sensitive, either. They openly talked to the other girl at the shoot about having her back again right in front of this girl. Now, I've seen both girls and I can tell you that this was NOT because the other girl was prettier. She is certainly one of the most appealing and pretty girls I've ever worked with. I suspect the other girl seemed a bit more pliable about doing harder stuff next time. At any rate, this should have been done out of earshot of this girl. It's all a matter of being nice to people.

Now I'm waiting for the guy to pipe up, "This is the porn business. We are outlaws. We aren't nice to people," but there, I said it for you, so stuff it.

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You're talking about a gal whose only mistake was being inexperienced. Believe me, she can hold her own with any of the mudpuppies so bravely flaunting their lack of ethical compasses here.

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being the model in question...a few words.
(a)-i'm not mormon, although my father is a preacher
(b)-i am the oldest of 6 (11?!)
(c)-i've never watched TV, i hate it
(d)-there actually is a boyfriend, one of two years (though i know this in part defeats the image of innocence, i apologize, for those attempting to save face for me:).

With the above conjectures having been expressed, please understand the fact that the facts, as Unseen and Aaron (for the most part) presented them, are generally correct. I am not a disillusioned, cunning, evil little bitch (as would follow from the 'blow job' analogy), nor am i a 'poor little girl' who failed to stand up for herself, and as a result suffered 'immense psychological trauma.' I rather articulated my discomfort at this job in particular to my photographer, and he mentioned that they were being paid for the additional 'spectators' present. Sue? For christ's sake, no...I'm far too logical and mild-tempered, not to mention; I was there, I made the choice to go through with the shoot, and I got paid for it. I shall now simply be more cautious, in the future, when booking photographers/etc. to work with. As to the atmosphere in which the scenes were shot...the other girl was very comfortable with a large audience, whereas I had never worked in front of more than one person before (in addition, it was my first video-much less the first time I'd done anything with a girl in my entire life). NO, I'm not complaining-just stipulating that I know for a fact, having worked with an 'established' company the next weekend, that the people being referred to as 'snakes' could certainly have conducted the shoot in a far more professional manner. Perhaps I should have committed to making this statement sooner, as so many liberties have been excercised in the definition of my [to many of you, hypothetical] situation.
~'The Model'

And one more thing: That story about you requiring a blow job for the girl to get work...is that true?

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Somebody correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think the innocence being referred to by most here was your personal sexual innocence, but rather your unfamiliarity with the type of "people" (and I use that word with severe reservations) one might encounter in this biz.

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Okay... so if "the Model" is cool with all of it and admittedly, knew what was going on, stayed anyway, AND got paid.... what exactly is the issue here?

Amp... buddy... Why are you so bent out of shape about this?

I'm really not... just confused. Unseen & Aaron have gone to great lengths to make some kind of a point here, but after all this, I fail to see it.

perhaps the point was merely to deduce varying reactions in such a situation...
basically, a reactionary experiement based upon an actual occurrence. and i'd say your responses can't have disappointed one with a preconceived notion of the fashion in which women are treated in this business..
furthermore..based upon all of your knowledge about this incident, and now knowing how the model felt about it (or even purportedly felt, for i'm sure there are some girls out there that actually do feel as victimized as i was portrayed to be), perhaps you can empathize a bit more with it should you be placed in a situation to aid a girl, rather than telling her 'life's a bitch, deal with it, you're a ho for being in the biz anyway.' though from what's been further stipulated on the board, it doesn't seem as if most of you deal with the models in the first place...
i commend aaron and unseen for upholding a form of absolute, albeit the industry being discussed, ethics-that there is indeed some type of standard by which we all deserve to be treated, no matter which side of the camera we're on. maybe that's the point...
and the sad thing is, it looks like a precious few actually got it.

Amen!

Welcome to the board! Thanks for clearing up all the confusion... Now we can rest easy knowing that you weren't an exploited virgin.



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Nice.

Well...

So... this was supposed to be some kinda fucking class we're attending here? Or are we now lab rats? If I want to be lectured on Unseen's moral and ethical views, I'll buy a six-pack and go curl up with him in a blanket by the fire.

I was lead to believe that there was sort of actual issue going on with you and the photographer, which in fact, turned out to be not quite the case. Hence,... I have deduced that this entire thread has been a complete and utter waste of my extremely valuable time and energy.

Have a nice day.

GFY needs your brain...

In any case... GFY is full of sarcasm, tasteless humor, and subversive tactics... Drama is paramount... and reality is only acknowledged by the newbies that haven't figured out the system yet... so throw that into your equation.

Amen!




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Hey Toasty666... Thanks for posting. I am cracking up reading your posts. Not because I do not take it seriously but because I think it is wonderful that the girl that a lot a people think was stupid has posted messages that run mental circles around those who have suggested that you were not very intelligent. High 5 for you. http://bbs.gofuckyourself.net/board/smile.gif

No... it's not true.

I was being sarcastic... and Dank is an easy target... I guess you missed the Dank BJ thread... There was a model that wanted to be "exploited" by Dank... She was a fan of one of Boneprone's sites...

I hesitate to speak for her because she has weighed in. You are misreading her if you think she was "cool" with it, because, as she puts it, she learned a lesson from the whole thing about professionalism.

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Knowing you, not totally unexpected.

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[quote]Originally posted by Amputate Your Head:
[b] We haven't said there was no issue, the issue being some basic consideration for the model as a HUMAN BEING. Where did we ever give up on that one. In reading her postings, I haven't found that. You certainly won't find it in mine.



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I confess to not being in class that day.

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I wonder how many of you have been an 18 year old girl. Yes, she should have walked away but on the other hand she should never have found herself in such a situation.

Being 18,new to the biz and in a room full of men can be just a bit intimidating.

Its not only 18 year old girls that have things like this happen to thim in the buisness.

I had an experiance last year when I was doing some modeling that put me off doing any more shoots for a while.

This photographer contacted me after seeing me in a magazine (he was passed to me by the magazine) and wanted to do a shoot for his new website.

So, I did everything I should do..I had him send me some samples of his work to make sure he was for real. I asked for a reference to another model that had worked for him and I set up with him before hand what I was willing to do and what I wasn't.

On the day, I arrived at his house (where the studio was), got into costume and we started taking photos. Great, fine. Everything goes as plan..I get naked and do the nude shots without any problem.

Then just before we are done he turns around and his dick is hanging out of his pants, camera in hand. Now, I had told him that I wasn't willing to do hardcore stuff because I was on my own (if I had a 'watcher' there to protect me then maybe but not with the photgrapher). He asked me to 'demonstrate my talents' and told me that all the other models beofre me had gone through with it so I should as well.

Did I? No. I got dressed and walked out. However, as a 23 year old BBW who knew her rights, it was still bloody scary.

Now, if it had been a room full of men, I may have been worried about what would have happened to both me and my reputation as a model if I had tried to leave.



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Hearing that sort of thing hurts, because it colors a girl's perception of every photographer she encounters from that time forward.

Unfortunately, a few photographers and a lot of webmasters seem to get into this business primarily for nonbusiness sexual purposes. Many (not all) webmasters are people who are a step beyond their surfer clients. They do not just LIKE porn, they want to be immersed in it as well. They want their personal lives to be pornographic.

Now, I'm not really against a photographer and a model having a social life if they hit it off and have some common interests (heaven knows, I've socialized with a few?very few?myself), but what kind of sleazeball tries to get a date much less a BJ out of a model by wagging his weenie? And what does that say about his respect for, not just her, but for womankind?

I even steer models away from very legit hardcore done by consummate pros, because I think it totally changes many people's perception of her from being a pretty girl model valued for her beauty and allure to being "just a ho who gives a pretty good hummer." (Now, just to be clear, I'm not saying that's MY attitude; rather I'm saying it's one a girl who goes hard is going to have to live with on the part of many people. And it will often change how they treat her and the quality of work she is offered.)

Actually I know two very nice gals who've done hardcore, and I love them both. One of them has decided it was a mistake, and I'm pretty sure the other one will figure it out one of these days.

I admire Toasty for sticking to her principles despite the fact she could likely make much more money by packing her suitcase and heading off to So. Cal. to offer every orifice of her body up to the Gods of Porn, where she'd most likely make big money for about two years then be pretty much discarded as old news.

This industry is a bit hypocritical in its treatment of women: They SAY "Women are exalted; after all, they get paid much more than the male performers." Well, am I the only one noticing that with a precious few exceptions, the female porn stars of 25 or so years ago have disappeared from the scene, whereas very many of the males from that period are still at it?

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Unseen...you are just rambling away to yourself...have you nothing better to do with your time than trying to see how long you can make this thread??? for the love of god...move on!

I'm sure some see it that way and some do not.

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Although I respect Unseens views on the hardcore topic, I do not fully agree. Girls involved in this business can and do get disrespect no matter if they are doing hardcore or softcore. This thread is living proof of that. Off the top of my head I can think of 6 girls who have worked with Unseen and have shot hard core girl/boy stuff for others without having any problems. The girls usually do not advertise what they have done to those who they know do not do hard core shoots. This is why Unseen says he only knows 2 girls that have done it.

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this month in review

and these are the topics with the most posts