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-   Fucking Around & Business Discussion (https://gfy.com/forumdisplay.php?f=26)
-   -   Chargeback Letter Response (https://gfy.com/showthread.php?t=407240)

iBanker 12-23-2004 02:39 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by CyberAge-Dave
As funny as it may sound. I like this. May I use it.
If you were referring to my letter, you can use it, although if you wait a bit, I'll post a reviewable copy from my attorney once done

iBanker 12-23-2004 02:43 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by V_RocKs
How about these apples...

I think iBanker should come on GFY and say, "I need some CB enforcement in NY, anyone can help?" Then 3 webmasters respond saying, "FUCK YEAH!"

Then those three go to the assholes house and ask him what the fuck is up at 7pm while he is having dinner with his family. Then they call his ass repeatedly and eventually he reverses it.

If this was being done nationwide, this kinda shit would stop.
I'll run that scenario by the attorney as well, although I don't think the Board of Directors here will approve it....lol

iBanker 12-23-2004 02:44 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by d00t
Why the heck did you charge back anyway?

I have been on the borderline of jailtime for fraud, chargebacks and I've worked for a very large credit corporation that handles these exact types of disputes. By charging back a real purchase you are only putting yourself at a greater risk of being screwed by the "system".

Some points of interest:

- Your bank will charge you for wasting their time if the dispute is ever resolved in the merchants favor. And give you a bad rep with your bank. If the amount is high and you don't do enough business with them (100k+/year) - wave your credit line with that instituion goodbye.
- You will be blacklisted with the merchant and the merchants bank.
- The merchant can fight the chargeback if they want, it does take time and money on their end to do so - and if they are right... their jail time threat is not so outragous.
- People do go to jail for chargebacks, you are essentially stealing money back from them.
- Someone has to pay the bill at the end of the day... guess who it will be if you are found to be in the wrong? Imagine 10 fraud agents were investigating it over 2 months, add private detectives costs... time wastage... not to mention legal outgoings, credit card companies time... then the government will whack their fee for wasting their time in court.

I'm sorry, but if you charged back an amount for the sake of doing so even though you knowingly made the transaction - I hope you get what you deserve. Stealing is a crime. Fraud is a federal offense.
I totally agree with you, but there is the right way to do something, the wrong way, and the legal way. Right now I'm focused on the legal way.

SinBucks 12-23-2004 03:00 PM
Welcome to the board!

Phoenix 12-23-2004 03:10 PM
it would be nice to see the 3rd party procesors going after false chargebacks.
a collection agency could be formed as well.

all done by the book and totally legit, people would eventually figure out that charging back is not a good idea either. in a year or two of course.

Wiggles 12-23-2004 03:20 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by d00t
Why the heck did you charge back anyway?

I have been on the borderline of jailtime for fraud, chargebacks and I've worked for a very large credit corporation that handles these exact types of disputes. By charging back a real purchase you are only putting yourself at a greater risk of being screwed by the "system".

Some points of interest:

- Your bank will charge you for wasting their time if the dispute is ever resolved in the merchants favor. And give you a bad rep with your bank. If the amount is high and you don't do enough business with them (100k+/year) - wave your credit line with that instituion goodbye.
- You will be blacklisted with the merchant and the merchants bank.
- The merchant can fight the chargeback if they want, it does take time and money on their end to do so - and if they are right... their jail time threat is not so outragous.
- People do go to jail for chargebacks, you are essentially stealing money back from them.
- Someone has to pay the bill at the end of the day... guess who it will be if you are found to be in the wrong? Imagine 10 fraud agents were investigating it over 2 months, add private detectives costs... time wastage... not to mention legal outgoings, credit card companies time... then the government will whack their fee for wasting their time in court.

I'm sorry, but if you charged back an amount for the sake of doing so even though you knowingly made the transaction - I hope you get what you deserve. Stealing is a crime. Fraud is a federal offense.

great info mate, thanks for the post :)

NETbilling 12-23-2004 03:23 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Phoenix
it would be nice to see the 3rd party procesors going after false chargebacks.
a collection agency could be formed as well.

all done by the book and totally legit, people would eventually figure out that charging back is not a good idea either. in a year or two of course.
Many of our merchants try to recover lost sales to chargebacks and have about a 30% success rate. We are glad to show them how.

Mitch

iBanker 12-23-2004 03:50 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by SinBucks
Welcome to the board!
Thanks man!

iBanker 12-23-2004 03:52 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by netbilling
Many of our merchants try to recover lost sales to chargebacks and have about a 30% success rate. We are glad to show them how.

Mitch

Hey Mitch,

That is exactly why we just applied for a merchant account with you! How can I get a status update on our application? 4-6 weeks seemed like a long time.

The application is under JSA Media Group, Inc.

NETbilling 12-23-2004 04:08 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by iBanker
Hey Mitch,

That is exactly why we just applied for a merchant account with you! How can I get a status update on our application? 4-6 weeks seemed like a long time.

The application is under JSA Media Group, Inc.
Hi,

Actually I just checked with Erin in merchant services and she verified that the app was faxed to us from you last Thursday (December 16th) and missing statements whcih you supplied to us last Friday (December 17th). We received the original from you this past Tuesday (December 21) and it was sent to the bank for approval yesterday and is in progress. Of course, not much will happen over the holidays at the banks as you probably would imagine.

Be sure to stop by our booth at Internext so we can meet. We will also be speaking at both processing seminars.

Thank you, Mitch Farber

DutchTeenCash 12-23-2004 04:15 PM
ok this all sounds great but many times youre stuck with a fake email fake adress etc etc then what ?

Top Jimmy 12-23-2004 04:18 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ADL_JD
I have some experience in this and it just doesn't work. Once they have charged back it is really difficult. The best thing to do is try to manage it before they chargeback... obviously much easier to do if you have your own merchant account.


I agree. I have sent almost identical letters. People get all scared, then call their bank, and the bank calms them down.


Best thing is to have a support system, make sure refunds are done. Let your customers know when updates are going to happen, basically keep them happy. You will always get CB's. The above at least ensures it won't be of rht wrong reasons.

Mr. Mike 12-23-2004 04:20 PM
Just tell them you know where they live, and you will send a crew to stand infront of their house with signs that say "Remove this pervert from our neighborhood".

It'll work.

this is not good advice.

Diligent 12-23-2004 04:41 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by lloyd
or better yet address it to Mrs.. even if you get stuck with the chargeback at least if there is a wife/mother in the household you'll have the satisfaction of knowing the probably got their ass kicked

You turned 15 the 22:nd this month?

Couple of days late but.. congrats!


Ehhrm.. which sponsor allows You to promote for them though? :playboy

iBanker 12-23-2004 04:59 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by thinkx
ok this all sounds great but many times youre stuck with a fake email fake adress etc etc then what ?
We get a ton of fake emails, hack attempts, etc. If its fake, then they provided fraudulent information to begin with and most of those charges don't go through. The ones that do on the other hand, the bank is easily shown it initial intent was fraudulent, so they wont chargeback or at least reverse it.

Rictor 12-23-2004 05:14 PM
I'm all for it. I also favor shooting them.

PMdave 12-23-2004 05:19 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by iBanker
We get a ton of fake emails, hack attempts, etc. If its fake, then they provided fraudulent information to begin with and most of those charges don't go through. The ones that do on the other hand, the bank is easily shown it initial intent was fraudulent, so they wont chargeback or at least reverse it.
uhm... couldn't it be the " initial intent was fraudulent"-part is a valid reason to charge back? People that sign up with hacked, stolen,...,... creditcards are probably not using the correct (email)adress of the card holder

NaughtyAlysha 12-23-2004 05:41 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by villageidiot
why don't you register www.nationalnegativedatabase.org, and put that URL in your letter, and when they go to the site, have one of those IP checker scripts on there that says, "Your IP is xxx.xxxx.xxx, and you are in City, State. Your account is currently pending an investigation with XXX.com porn company, because you have allegedly fraudulently charged back access to porn content... bla bla bla" you get the idea.

LOL

i am not a lawyer. doing this could get you into big trouble for all i know... but i do think it would be funny. it's probably a really bad idea. don't do it. LOL

-vi
Not a bad idea, but I don't get that many of them, so I don't know if it would be worth it for me, lol.

iBanker 12-23-2004 05:42 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by PMdave
uhm... couldn't it be the " initial intent was fraudulent"-part is a valid reason to charge back? People that sign up with hacked, stolen,...,... creditcards are probably not using the correct (email)adress of the card holder
Yeah, but we are the program, its the shithead enduser charging back, we are trying to lower the number of chargebacks.

But yeah, lol, you are right, and that it the reason we are "trying" to use.

Easton 12-23-2004 06:09 PM
this thread is a good read...

Hentaikid 12-24-2004 09:05 AM
I got a chargeback recently and looked up the domain the email was from and it turns out the guy has a website where he posts adult stories using paypal to sell/accept donations.

Heh heh. Payback time.

Matt Frackas 12-24-2004 10:39 AM
yea...good in theory ...

however its my experience that a majority of the email addresses associated with these types of members/chargebacks are not valid....so they are unreachable.

lloyd 12-24-2004 11:26 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Just-Anotha-Mack
You turned 15 the 22:nd this month?

Couple of days late but.. congrats!


Ehhrm.. which sponsor allows You to promote for them though? :playboy
holy shit somebody noticed that! i dont promote anyone i'm just here for the free porn like any 15 yr old.

nah, i jsut changed it in my profile once the calender feature was added with v3.0 thought it would be kinda funny. sadly its not true or i would have been on the board since i was like 12.

Kimmykim 12-24-2004 12:21 PM
If I'm not mistaken, the fact that you had a CDC can still be counted against you if the acquiring bank or card association chooses to do so, regardless of the outcome.

Devilporn 12-24-2004 12:41 PM
I do not run paysites yet but....why not tell the people signing up in the welcome e-mail you send them that you will track every use of the website they make and that if ever they chargeback you'll have proof to dispute it?

Drake 12-24-2004 12:50 PM
Let us know if you wind up using this approach.

brizzad 12-24-2004 01:30 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by iBanker
All joking aside, it is still fraud, even if it is only for 3.95, right?

he's doing a chargeback on $3.95 ?

dcortez 12-24-2004 01:38 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Devilporn
I do not run paysites yet but....why not tell the people signing up in the welcome e-mail you send them that you will track every use of the website they make and that if ever they chargeback you'll have proof to dispute it?
Let's not forget we're being paid to provide adult entertainment to people who mostly are NOT going to defraud us.

To treat them with an attitude assuming they are untrustworthy will do more harm than good. Why bum them out with a 'big brother is watching' approach. The ones who will cheat, will only laugh when they read your 'promise to track their butts to embarrasment'. The honest ones may regret having signed up with such an unfriendly service.

-Dino

Drake 12-24-2004 01:44 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by brizzad
he's doing a chargeback on $3.95 ?
I though a chargeback could only be made for a subscription over $20 or some value like that?

TonyL 12-24-2004 01:47 PM
Awesome. I will be implimenting this into our system next week.

-Tony

Alex From San Diego 12-24-2004 01:52 PM
Why not just have the enduser, click on a link within his email to activate his username/password in order to enter the site. that might eliminate the bogus emails.

Zprogramz 12-24-2004 02:13 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by netbilling
Hi,

Actually I just checked with Erin in merchant services and she verified that the app was faxed to us from you last Thursday (December 16th) and missing statements whcih you supplied to us last Friday (December 17th). We received the original from you this past Tuesday (December 21) and it was sent to the bank for approval yesterday and is in progress. Of course, not much will happen over the holidays at the banks as you probably would imagine.

Be sure to stop by our booth at Internext so we can meet. We will also be speaking at both processing seminars.

Thank you, Mitch Farber
You guys are really on top of things over there. Cheers and Merry Christmas. Thanks for the awesome gift basket that you sent us.

Z

hottoddy 12-24-2004 02:19 PM
Do what you feel is best for your business. But keep in mind, from a cost/benefit standpoint, you're gonna be paying $300+/hour for an attorney.

iBanker 12-24-2004 03:02 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by brizzad
he's doing a chargeback on $3.95 ?
Yup $3.95, and we got to more today totaling over $100. Here is what blows my mind.

They sign up using their real name, their real address, a matching IP address, AND here is the kicker.....they pay BY CHECK!!!!

And some of them charge back within 1 hour of when they signed up. It is so obvious they actually did it cause who could get a bank statement that fast. Even if they could, what are the odds of them to be checking their online statement and its actually there ON TIME....

It about time we all put our heads together and figure this out.

detoxed 12-24-2004 03:05 PM
Interesting, maybe he charged back because he thought the site was shit?


Quote:
Originally Posted by iBanker
We all know how shitty chargebacks can be for both affiliates and programs the same. I would like to know what other people think about a response like this, and the possible effectiveness of it:

Dear Mr. XXXXXXXX,

You are receiving this email because of your successful attempt to chargeback a transaction made on blackdickswhitechicks.com. Your IP address of XX.XXX.XXX.XXX is an exact match based on location for XXXX XXXXX Rd, North Carolina, 28105. If you were unhappy with the service provided to you by that website, we would be happy to give you a CREDIT on the purchase, back to your checking account.

You have decided to chargeback the item instead, claiming it was a fraudulent transaction. Our systems and FIT (Fraud Investigation Team) have flagged your dispute as inaccurate. We are informing you of this in advance to try and resolve this matter amicably. We are offering you a credit on the account, which would require you to return to your bank and cancel the chargeback.

If you chose not to cancel the chargeback, and remain under the claim that this was not a valid transaction, we will peruse a fraud investigation against you through the use of our attorneys, and state and federal court. Convictions of such offenses could cost you a minimum fine of $5,000.00 and 6-12 months imprisonment.

Please work with us on this matter, and it will be solved immediately. You will have to respond to this email with your intentions for us not to peruse legal action against you.

Sincerely,

JSA Media Group, Inc.



It is sad that the people who buy from the industry have learned they can chargeback almost anything, and too often programs flirt with that upper 1% where the gray line become black. Something need to be done about it.

PS. Im new here, so hi everyone.

Kimmykim 12-24-2004 03:06 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike33
I though a chargeback could only be made for a subscription over $20 or some value like that?
Most banks simply issue a credit without cdc on very small transactions, they're already in the red on tiny trans by the time they read the request online or talk to the consumer.

Not all of them do though.

iBanker 12-24-2004 03:11 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by dcortez
Let's not forget we're being paid to provide adult entertainment to people who mostly are NOT going to defraud us.

To treat them with an attitude assuming they are untrustworthy will do more harm than good. Why bum them out with a 'big brother is watching' approach. The ones who will cheat, will only laugh when they read your 'promise to track their butts to embarrasment'. The honest ones may regret having signed up with such an unfriendly service.

-Dino
Please dont missunderstand the intent I initially and still hold. The intent is to:

Limit the total number of chargebacks.

I have no intentions of embarassing anyone, as that is not good business. I can tell you this though, everyone here is sick of having to tell an affiliate he/she lost a sale cause it was fraudulent. It costs us money, but more importantly, it costs the affiliate money. Unhappy affiliates = Less Traffic = Less Joins = Less overall profit.

What we are trying to do, is keep that money in the affiliates pocket, not embarass anyone (although we have little emotion against scammers).

iBanker 12-24-2004 03:15 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by detoxed
Interesting, maybe he charged back because he thought the site was shit?
Very cute. If that were the case, the Amp would be a shitty designer, 2one3 would be shitty production, Nats doesn't function, CCBill and/or Epoch doesn't work. All things we utilize that we know are above the industry standard, and works better than we imagined.

I think not, but hey, its your opinion. Have fun with it. Kind of knew if I posted a real thread on here, someone would be a jackass. And people wonder why I stay off the boards.

To those of you with the great imput thanks. My attorney will have it done after the new year if anyone wants a final copy of the letter we plan on sending. Merry Christmas!

iBanker 12-24-2004 03:16 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by detoxed
Interesting, maybe he charged back because he thought the site was shit?
Just re read your post, wanted to clarify I thought you were calling our sites shit. Apologies if you weren't. Thanks.

killshot 12-24-2004 03:26 PM
I've started getting pre-emptive about chargebacks and reduced them by at least 75%

There are certain things people put in email addresses when they think they are clever and going to sign up and do a chargeback .. like 0wn3d@ or any other fake email with an abnormal amount of numbers instead of letters.. f

I'll cancel, refund, and ban the account as soon as i see it.

I probably end up losing some valid sales but the amount of money i have saved in penalties, not to mention keeping my overall percentage low has been worth it.


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