Graphics Design question: How much does PRICE impact QUALITY?

[webmaster x]

How much of an impact does PRICE have on the QUALITY of the finished product?

Price = initial design costs and maintenance design

Quality = ability to convert/recruit

[AlienQ - BANNED FOR LIFE]

it dont.

[webmaster x]

Originally posted by AlienQ
it dont.

So the people who are saying that a designer that costs $12K for a multi-modal site is better than someone who charges $1500 for the same job are WRONG?

What if the another person wanted to do it for $500? Still no correlation?

[AlienQ - BANNED FOR LIFE]

Originally posted by webmaster x
So the people who are saying that a designer that costs $12K for a multi-modal site is better than someone who charges $1500 for the same job are WRONG?

What if the another person wanted to do it for $500? Still no correlation?

Nope.

[webmaster x]

Originally posted by AlienQ
Nope.

I see. So in your estimation, design work is pretty much interchangeable. The only variable being QC and price?

[AlienQ - BANNED FOR LIFE]

Want me to tell you?

[webmaster x]

Originally posted by AlienQ
Want me to tell you?

No, I've seen your mediocre work. So, I guess it wouldn't matter.

[AkiraSS]

Price buys you more time with the designer. Time for him to test different things before he delivers.

Most important IMO is whether the designer is a webmaster/marketeer himself or only a designer? If he's a webmaster too, it's a big plus because he knows what sells and what not.

You can get gorgeus eyecandy from a design company, but if they don't know the surfer psychology, the click-path and how to catch surfer's mind along with his dick, you can't expect good sales from it..

[Drake]

Price buys designer a high quality home and boat. Just j/k

Good question. I've noticed that there is indeed a general correlation, with higher price leading to better results. Now, there are always exceptions.

Site entrance fees on the other hand are another thing. Some sites charge $39.99 for generic content while others like Alsccan charge around half the price and have super high quality content.

[Ironhorse]

Higher price buys more time to think something through rather than slap something together, the more you plan a design out the better the results.

Yes and more time with the designer gets better results.

And yes nice home and boat make designer feel better which results in increased productivity and ensure delivery of enhanced product.

But most importantly, higher price is usually based on higher market demand which is usually a reflection of designer ability or 'proven' product capability and service.

[AlienQ - BANNED FOR LIFE]

All wrong.

[graphicsbytia]

Low priced designers tend to price themselves right out of the market by getting too busy

even if their work is awesome, that's only part of it, it has to be done in a timely manner too.

as far as being capeable of designing a site that will sell, that's pretty much a given, it has to sell or it's no good

[AlienQ - BANNED FOR LIFE]

Wrong.

[DX]

Alien... shhh.

Don't give away shit... including your opinion... for free.

[graphicsbytia]

Originally posted by AlienQ
Wrong.

what's wrong

[AlienQ - BANNED FOR LIFE]

Its no wonder most of you are broke fucken morons.

I won't tell ya folks why...

Ya "Seem" to know it all already.

[graphicsbytia]

Originally posted by AlienQ
Its no wonder most of you are broke fucken morons.

I won't tell ya folks why...

Ya "Seem" to know it all already.

normally I like you AlienQ

not this time though, and btw.. you're wrong

[Amputate Your Head.]

Originally posted by graphicsbytia
Low priced designers tend to price themselves right out of the market by getting too busy

even if their work is awesome, that's only part of it, it has to be done in a timely manner too.

as far as being capeable of designing a site that will sell, that's pretty much a given, it has to sell or it's no good

somehow you've managed to 1) proudly display sheer ignorance 2) state the obvious 3) redundantly cancel out yourself.


My jaw is all agape.

[graphicsbytia]

Originally posted by Amputate Your Head.
somehow you've managed to 1) proudly display sheer ignorance 2) state the obvious 3) redundantly cancel out yourself.


My jaw is all agape.

now how do you figure that Amp?

btw.. haven't seen you around for a while, decide to come back into the "fold"?

[AlienQ - BANNED FOR LIFE]

Its been the only thread worth responding to in weeks.

[Ironhorse]

Originally posted by AlienQ
All wrong.

Enlighten us bro

[DX]

Originally posted by AlienQ
Its been the only thread worth responding to in weeks.

weeks??

[Amputate Your Head.]

nah... i'm just here on a break. In fact, break time is over. Gotta get back to scrubbing these pans.

[graphicsbytia]

Originally posted by Amputate Your Head.
nah... i'm just here on a break. In fact, break time is over. Gotta get back to scrubbing these pans.

lol.. well I missed ya, but don't tell anyone ;)

[webmaster x]

Originally posted by Ironhorse
Higher price buys more time to think something through rather than slap something together, the more you plan a design out the better the results.

So you're saying that all the extra cash buys is EXTRA time. What if there were a team of 12 designers doing a mass concept, layout, testing, and final design on the project within a 48 hour period?

Would this cancel out the extra time factor?

Also, wouldn't people pay more for STATISTICALLY VERIFIED design concepts that convert?

[Amputate Your Head.]

Originally posted by webmaster x
So you're saying that all the extra cash buys is EXTRA time. What if there were a team of 12 designers doing a mass concept, layout, testing, and final design on the project within a 48 hour period?

Would this cancel out the extra time factor?

Also, wouldn't people pay more for STATISTICALLY VERIFIED design concepts that convert?

Not sure I understand where you're going with this, but just for my own amusement....

let's suppose a project is priced at $3k. Now, a single designer can work that project for a week or even two if necessary and deliver a first class product, and still make a decent living.

Switching now to your 12-man approach, the same project @ $3k within your 48 hours.... Assuming there is some sort of company running the show and it's not just 12 guys winging it, let's say the company takes a third off the top. So then splitting the leftovers, each man can expect $166 bucks over the span of 2 days work, and assuming an 8 hour work day, that boils down to a whopping $10.41 an hour. (before taxes).


I don't know about anyone else, but I can make that working for Taco Bell.

Now about this "STATISTICALLY VERIFIED design concepts that convert"

if they're statistically verified, then it would seem that they've already been concepted and layed out....

so as much as it pains me I have to ask... what is it the 12 monkeys are doing exactly? Because it sounds like they're gluing content into templates.

[Roald]

Originally posted by Amputate Your Head.
Not sure I understand where you're going with this, but just for my own amusement....

let's suppose a project is priced at $3k. Now, a single designer can work that project for a week or even two if necessary and deliver a first class product, and still make a decent living.

Switching now to your 12-man approach, the same project @ $3k within your 48 hours.... Assuming there is some sort of company running the show and it's not just 12 guys winging it, let's say the company takes a third off the top. So then splitting the leftovers, each man can expect $166 bucks over the span of 2 days work, and assuming an 8 hour work day, that boils down to a whopping $10.41 an hour. (before taxes).


I don't know about anyone else, but I can make that working for Taco Bell.

Now about this "STATISTICALLY VERIFIED design concepts that convert"

if they're statistically verified, then it would seem that they've already been concepted and layed out....

so as much as it pains me I have to ask... what is it the 12 monkeys are doing exactly? Because it sounds like they're gluing content into templates.

that sounds like any outsource company out there.

[xclusive]

Either somebody has talent or they don't the only thing more money buys is more time to tweak it...

[AlienQ - BANNED FOR LIFE]

This thread keeps getting better.

12 Monkeys.

What a cluster fuck.

Put 12 designers in a room and see them cut each other to shreads. That would be fun. Just thinking about 12 designers on one design project sounds like fucken hell incarnate.


"I want blue, no it should be pink! NO Shut up we are going with red!

At least let me choose the font case! We already decided that you pig fucker 2 hours ago!

Now about this texture pattern do you guys like flowers?"

[webmaster x]

Originally posted by xclusive
Either somebody has talent or they don't the only thing more money buys is more time to tweak it...

Maybe but I haven't heard any one designer on this thread what kind of statistics-based/semi-scientific method they employ in making design decisions.

The only thing Im getting here is that additional money gets you more time and more experience... which still doesn't answer the fundamental question of (OUTSIDE of random streaks of luck where a design got 1:200 sustained conversions) do you have any method that can be statistically replicated where conversions will fall into a range?

I guess the bottom line is that design is and perhaps always will be an EGO- and HYPE-driven issue that skirts away from actual statistics-based analysis.

Its like saying Jim Bob is a $5K a pop designer cuz he happened to design THREE tours back in the day that hit 1:200 on TGP traffic. The rest of his work since then has been 1:2000 or 1:30K but its OKAY... he's a PROVEN talent.

If that's what we're talking about, wouldn't it make more sense for paysite owners and other holders of capital to invest in cheaper guys hoping to at least pick best of the statistical litter?

[webmaster x]

Another way to look at the problem is if the INVESTOR (aka paysite owner) has $2K to invest...

does he invest ALL in 1 guy and take the chance of the design either hitting mediocre conversions or possibly hitting a very good conversion ratio?

OR

does he pay $899 and go with AOS (or whoever else outsource or cheap US/EU designer, I don't care--this is a statistics issue instead of an outsource issue) and have many test designs drawn up and see which convert better?

Does having a statistical diversity afford an investor (paysite owner) a measure of insurance against the unknown?

Of course, buying shitloads of test traffic and running it through these designs is CRUCIAL.

SO....

If someone is asking for 1K and up for design, shouldn't it part of the DESIGNER's job to offer some sort of technical testing of the traffic potential of his designs?

Conversely, wouldn't an OBJECTIVE ranking system based solely on the ability to convert take much of the guess work and wasted expense in the whole designer selection process? (kinda like the Statistician but designers don't pay anything to be listed--takes out the conflict of interest issue)

[webmaster x]

Maybe ... by having the objective ranking described above, there would be some firm gauge to design PRICING instead of just salesmanship or 'reputation.'

[Theo]

Quality is just one of the factors. Graphics Design is a service and like most services it is highly affected by demand and supply.

[Pornweaver]

Give examples of the type of work that you are looking for and get quotes appropriate to the project. It's not the designer's "job" to convert your fucking traffic. Get a fucking clue. It is their job to provide you with a brandable layout, effective graphics, and usability for the surfer.

There are no "STATISTICALLY VERIFIED" design layouts or concepts. There is only popular opinion or creativity. Innovation tends to lead to better conversions. Following the crowd tends to lead to mediocre / dependable results.

Test your own fucking projects. The "Designer" takes YOUR input and produces the result. So, if the work doesn't convert... I got 2 words for you... FUCK YOU! Next time, give better details before you hire the designer. If you "accept" the final project, it's in your lap and up to you to make it work.

Moral of the story, hire someone based on their reputation, and quality of work. If they happen to be priced low, GOOD FOR YOU... You should stick with that 1 designer. If they are priced higher, at least you know that you'll be getting quality work from them... after all, YOU picked them.

[FuckFind]

Originally posted by webmaster x
Maybe but I haven't heard any one designer on this thread what kind of statistics-based/semi-scientific method they employ in making design decisions.

The only thing Im getting here is that additional money gets you more time and more experience... which still doesn't answer the fundamental question of (OUTSIDE of random streaks of luck where a design got 1:200 sustained conversions) do you have any method that can be statistically replicated where conversions will fall into a range?

I guess the bottom line is that design is and perhaps always will be an EGO- and HYPE-driven issue that skirts away from actual statistics-based analysis.

Its like saying Jim Bob is a $5K a pop designer cuz he happened to design THREE tours back in the day that hit 1:200 on TGP traffic. The rest of his work since then has been 1:2000 or 1:30K but its OKAY... he's a PROVEN talent.

If that's what we're talking about, wouldn't it make more sense for paysite owners and other holders of capital to invest in cheaper guys hoping to at least pick best of the statistical litter?

if your taking that angle, doens't it seem as though Jim Bob may have been potentially "guided by the client" in terms of what he wanted, and so the client's idea spawned the good conversion ratios?

seriously sometimes designers get a lot of heat from shit convertions when the client is the one who decides which niche, market, environment, method, and type of traffic that is being pushed to the site. I agree that obviously the design has significant impact on the conversion ratios, but there are also obvious factors that play into this that the designer has no way to control.

that being said, can paying more make your conversions better? Well, paying more probably results in the designer being more suited and much better at producing what you foresee, the rest is up to you.

my 2.

FF

[Pornweaver]

Originally posted by webmaster x
Maybe ... by having the objective ranking described above, there would be some firm gauge to design PRICING instead of just salesmanship or 'reputation.'

You can't "meter" creativity man. Get a fucking clue!! Go back to the office and push more paper around for a while. Creativity and Marketing are 2 fields that have a WIDE range of prices. It is all based on experience, quality and reputation. IMHO, most of the designers these days are WAYYYYYYY underpriced, and shooting themselves in the proverbial foot.

Consider yourself lucky they don't form a union and decide on a global price of $10k per 3 page tour.

[FuckFind]

Originally posted by Pornweaver
You can't "meter" creativity man. Get a fucking clue!! Go back to the office and push more paper around for a while. Creativity and Marketing are 2 fields that have a WIDE range of prices. It is all based on experience, quality and reputation. IMHO, most of the designers these days are WAYYYYYYY underpriced, and shooting themselves in the proverbial foot.

Consider yourself lucky they don't form a union and decide on a global price of $10k per 3 page tour.

couldn't agree more.

FF

[media]

Originally posted by AlienQ
Its no wonder most of you are broke fucken morons.

I won't tell ya folks why...

Ya "Seem" to know it all already.

Word...

[Theo]

Originally posted by Pornweaver

There are no "STATISTICALLY VERIFIED" design layouts or concepts.

can you explain this? Any design layout that has been tested with a significant number of hits can be considered STATISTICALLY VERIFIED to convert or not to convert. There are webmasters pulling millions every year from the exact same promo designs/templates.

[Pornweaver]

I haven't heard any one designer on this thread what kind of statistics-based/semi-scientific method they employ in making design decisions.

--- Who in their right fucking mind is going to spill their secrets to some asshat cock jockey like YOU on this board?!?!?!

The only thing Im getting here is that additional money gets you more time and more experience... which still doesn't answer the fundamental question of (OUTSIDE of random streaks of luck where a design got 1:200 sustained conversions) do you have any method that can be statistically replicated where conversions will fall into a range?

--- Professionals don't rely on LUCK.

I guess the bottom line is that design is and perhaps always will be an EGO- and HYPE-driven issue that skirts away from actual statistics-based analysis.

--- If you analyze my asshole, you'll find a striking resemblance to the driving force behind your person.

Its like saying Jim Bob is a $5K a pop designer cuz he happened to design THREE tours back in the day that hit 1:200 on TGP traffic. The rest of his work since then has been 1:2000 or 1:30K but its OKAY... he's a PROVEN talent.

--- The only thing you have proven in this thread is how little you know about this industry and need to go back to work at McD's.

If that's what we're talking about, wouldn't it make more sense for paysite owners and other holders of capital to invest in cheaper guys hoping to at least pick best of the statistical litter?

--- Yeah, sure man. If you only have 2 cents to rub together, go right ahead and buy shit work. You get what you pay for. I have a strong feeling that you couldn't rub 2 cents together though. Someone so concerned with "cheap" is obviously lacking funds. Which leads me to my question for you... How long have you been in this industry and why aren't you retired yet? I would bet that you are either some jackass newbie who is trying to get insider secrets, or just a general fuckup who couldn't make a dime if he sold gasoline for .02c per gallon.

[Pornweaver]

Originally posted by Soul_Rebel
can you explain this? Any design layout that has been tested with a significant number of hits can be considered STATISTICALLY VERIFIED to convert or not to convert. There are webmasters pulling millions every year from the exact same promo designs/templates.

Let me clarify... "Statistically Verified" on a "global" scale. What works for 1 person(s) doesn't mean it works for someone else. There are too many factors involved to develop an actual "statistic" on a design, such as time of day/month/year, traffic sources, political restraints, economy, etc... That's all I'm trying to say.

I agree that some companies find layouts and designs that work for them in particular, and some basic rules do apply to some degree overall, but to try and pin-point generalized design/layout methods that convert better than others is ludicrous, because the second you think you have found one, there will always be something "better". Technology evolves, methods are refined, strategies are realized, and your statistics then become obsolete.

[webmaster x]

Originally posted by Pornweaver



Consider yourself lucky they don't form a union and decide on a global price of $10k per 3 page tour.

Interesting that you take this extremely emotionally. Is this the much vaunted PROFESSIONALISM that you speak of?

Finally--FIXING the price of anything is a bad idea. Its a GLOBAL marketplace. The TRUE price of design (just like any commodity) will be decided, ULTIMATELY, by its effectiveness and competition.

Hiding your head in the sand and trying to insult me for asking questions Design clients ask in private does not make the issue go away.

[Theo]

ok i get the idea

[webmaster x]

Originally posted by Soul_Rebel
can you explain this? Any design layout that has been tested with a significant number of hits can be considered STATISTICALLY VERIFIED to convert or not to convert. There are webmasters pulling millions every year from the exact same promo designs/templates.

Exactly. What Pornweaver and other guys like him seem to be advocating is that the CLIENT be left holding the bag when the design doesn't convert.

I'm okay with this IF the transaction cost is LOW. What if the designer charged a shitload of money?

[webmaster x]

Originally posted by Soul_Rebel
Quality is just one of the factors. Graphics Design is a service and like most services it is highly affected by demand and supply.

Another good point. It is a COMMODITY. Just like any commodity there are many sources and points of origin. Prices differ.

Bottomline, it is Return On Investment that should set the price instead of how 'hyped' a 'designer' is.

I think everyone would agree with that statement, the other posts above are just discussions and points of departure re HOW we can get a ranking/ROI sorting system going.

[Pornweaver]

Originally posted by webmaster x
Interesting that you take this extremely emotionally. Is this the much vaunted PROFESSIONALISM that you speak of?

Finally--FIXING the price of anything is a bad idea. Its a GLOBAL marketplace. The TRUE price of design (just like any commodity) will be decided, ULTIMATELY, by its effectiveness and competition.

Hiding your head in the sand and trying to insult me for asking questions Design clients ask in private does not make the issue go away.

Design is an Art form, not a marketplace. Get it straight. Design is not a "commodity" it is a service industry. You do NOT pay for the final product, you pay for the designer's time.

Using your ill-conceived logic... You should be able to get Paris Hilton to model for you @ the standard $900-1200 for a scene that ANY amateur pornstar makes right? Or maybe you can convince her that she is worth less than that.

Keep truckin' cock knob. You're in the wrong industry. Time to pack up your bags and go back to mainstream.

[Pornweaver]

Originally posted by webmaster x
Another good point. It is a COMMODITY. Just like any commodity there are many sources and points of origin. Prices differ.

Bottomline, it is Return On Investment that should set the price instead of how 'hyped' a 'designer' is.

I think everyone would agree with that statement, the other posts above are just discussions and points of departure re HOW we can get a ranking/ROI sorting system going.

He said it is a SERVICE. Get it through that rock you call a head. SERVICE is NOT a Commodity. You pay for time. Good fucking lord you are thick.

And in being such, I am also DISAGREEING with your statement. Which renders your statment invalid. So Fuck the Fuck Off now. Go back to mainstream, you have no place in this industry.

[Pornweaver]

My Last Post in this thread. webmaster x... You are an asshat.

QUOTE FROM YOUR BLOG:
----------------------------------------------------------
Money in Trolling
Personally, I hate to say this... but judging from our recent comparison of CTRs from Forums and chatboards/opinion boards, there's quite a lot of money to be made in TROLLING. We've been pushing cam sites using the trolling technique and its been quite effective.

What is trolling: Exaggerating one's position to get a rise from the readers of a board.

See our personas article and study the definition of a board troll. Amazing stuff. Definitely gets eyeballs.

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---- Happy Trolling... Asshat.

[webmaster x]

Just because I sport a sig doesnt mean I own the site. I am a contractor with the company that owns the site, that doesn't make me an owner now does it?


Just goes to show your level of analysis.

EVEN if it was a troll, you ended up swallowing ALL of it.

Originally posted by Pornweaver
My Last Post in this thread. webmaster x... You are an asshat.

QUOTE FROM YOUR BLOG:
----------------------------------------------------------
Money in Trolling
Personally, I hate to say this... but judging from our recent comparison of CTRs from Forums and chatboards/opinion boards, there's quite a lot of money to be made in TROLLING. We've been pushing cam sites using the trolling technique and its been quite effective.

What is trolling: Exaggerating one's position to get a rise from the readers of a board.

See our personas article and study the definition of a board troll. Amazing stuff. Definitely gets eyeballs.

However, there's a FINE LINE between trolling and just being OFFENSIVE. Its a spidery line so hopefully you'll study it closely before throwing out the bait threads.

Happy fishing.
----------------------------------------------------------
http://www.justtraffic.blogspot.com/
----------------------------------------------------------

---- Happy Trolling... Asshat.

[webmaster x]

Originally posted by Pornweaver
He said it is a SERVICE. Get it through that rock you call a head. SERVICE is NOT a Commodity. You pay for time. Good fucking lord you are thick.

And in being such, I am also DISAGREEING with your statement. Which renders your statment invalid. So Fuck the Fuck Off now. Go back to mainstream, you have no place in this industry.

There is no distinction between SERVICE and COMMODITY. You GET IT THROUGH YOUR HEAD that the old definition of commodity as a PRODUCT is long gone.

For someone who uses the Internet such as you appear to do, wouldn't this be obvious?

Moreover, why are you being so emotional about this issue? Does this hit close to home? Maybe you can't convince people with REASONING ... perhaps that is why you have to resort to namecalling.

Well, guess what,... I am not intimidated.