Why do people HATE outsourcing?

[webmaster x]

It makes sense if you are an employee or act like one. Doesn't make sense if you're a business. Also, if you kill outsourcing from US to non-US, you kill outsourcing from NON-US to US.

See article below:

Jobs have become a big issue in this election year -- which means that it is optimistic to expect a rational discussion.

Nothing is discussed more irrationally than "outsourcing." It is obviously completely misleading to discuss how many jobs American companies are sending to other countries without even mentioning how many jobs foreign countries are outsourcing to Americans.

Yet those who are making the most noise about outsourcing seldom say a word about the in-sourcing of jobs from other countries. But it is the net balance that matters.

Maybe those statistics are hard to get. But you certainly won't get them if you are not even looking for them and avoid even mentioning them.

Official statistics published last March in the Survey of Current Business showed an increase of 2.8 million jobs outsourced by American-owned multinational corporations during a quarter of a century ending in 2001. Over that same span of time, there was an increase of 4.7 million jobs outsourced to Americans by foreign-owned multinational corporations.

These numbers go back and forth over time. But they don't even exist in the rhetoric of those denouncing outsourcing.

Any laws passed to stop the outsourcing of American jobs to other countries are almost certain to bring laws in other countries to stop the outsourcing of jobs to Americans.

We had something like that during the Great Depression of the 1930s, when international trade restrictions were imposed in order to save jobs during a period of record unemployment. Countries around the world did the same thing, with the net result of a sharp reduction of international trade and a needless prolonging of the depression.

Many policies designed to "save jobs" have effects that are the opposite of their intentions. Germany has some of the strongest job protection laws in the world -- and double-digit unemployment rates are common in Germany.

Job protection laws add to the cost of labor. These laws may save the jobs of those who already have jobs but the passage of time brings new young job applicants into the labor market and the high cost of labor means that employers have incentives to get their work done by substituting machines for workers or by shifting to producing products that require less labor.

Countries in the European Union as a whole have stronger job protection laws than the United States -- and higher unemployment rates because their rate of job creation is much slower.

On the other end of the spectrum, there has probably never been any place with a more unrestricted labor market than Hong Kong when it was a British colony. Unemployment rates of one or two percent were common in Hong Kong then. After China took over Hong Kong, it created various new benefits for workers -- and unemployment rates hit 7 percent, not high by European standards, but a multiple of what it had been for years.

What all this says, in various ways, is that there is no free lunch -- not even during election years.

Senator John Kerry says that he would create 10 million jobs if he were President. But Presidents don't create jobs.

The most a President can do is have policies that allow private employers to create jobs. Foolish policies can destroy jobs and prolong a recession or depression but Presidents cannot "grow the economy," no matter what political rhetoric says.

Of course the government can hire more people or favor a particular industry in one way or another, and thereby cause employment to be greater in that particular industry. But the government has no money of its own, and the money that it takes from the private economy to increase its own hiring or to promote hiring in some favored industry reduces the money available to hire people elsewhere in the economy.

President Bush's tariffs on imported steel may have saved some jobs in the steel industry but estimates are that the higher price of steel that resulted cost several times as many jobs in industries that use steel.

With jobs, as with anything else, it is the net result that counts -- and there is no free lunch, not even in election years.

[jade_dragon]

You live in what's called a "trickle down economy" this means that money flows from the few who have many to the many who have less through the multiple purchases of the rich to the wages of the poor to produce the goods and perform the services to the rich.

When you outsource you effectively take that money out of the system and put it in another country that usually does not have people to return it.

Think of it as having a pool and a pump and fountain. You take water out of the pool and push it through the fountain and it looks pretty and goes back into the pool and recycles. Well if you take that hose supplying the fountain and divert some of the water to another pool you have less water in your pool..... your pool gets lower and lower as you do it. Remember Nixon removed us from the gold standard...... outsourcing is very destructive to the economy since it is the rich with more that are doing it.

[webmaster x]

This is the ZERO sum argument. However, you only look at the result at the labor. You don't want to look at the money being made and profit being made which is being REINVESTED into the economy.

Also, by clamping down on outsourcing you are rewarding people for being LAZY with their skills. If your "job moves overseas" isn't it YOUR responsiblity to upgrade your skills?

Why ask the government to babysit you?

Originally posted by jade_dragon
You live in what's called a "trickle down economy" this means that money flows from the few who have many to the many who have less through the multiple purchases of the rich to the wages of the poor to produce the goods and perform the services to the rich.

When you outsource you effectively take that money out of the system and put it in another country that usually does not have people to return it.

Think of it as having a pool and a pump and fountain. You take water out of the pool and push it through the fountain and it looks pretty and goes back into the pool and recycles. Well if you take that hose supplying the fountain and divert some of the water to another pool you have less water in your pool..... your pool gets lower and lower as you do it. Remember Nixon removed us from the gold standard...... outsourcing is very destructive to the economy since it is the rich with more that are doing it.

[BRISK]

I love outsourcing.

[Spunky]

Bla Bla Bla...too long...because they pay the workers 2 bucks a day

[zzgundamnzz]

Wowi s this an actual intelligent business conversation on GFY... haven't seen one in a long time

[webmaster x]

Originally posted by spunky1
Bla Bla Bla...too long...because they pay the workers 2 bucks a day

2 bucks a day is a lot of money in many parts of the world. Remember, according to a recent World Bank survey, 1.8 BILLION people make LESS than $1 USD a day.

Puts things in perspective, doesn't it.

[wdsguy]

because the quality of the work sux

[BRISK]

You might not like outsourcing, but that doesn't mean you can stop it.

Outsourcing is here to stay. Get used to it.

[xxxoutsourcing]

Originally posted by webmaster x
This is the ZERO sum argument. However, you only look at the result at the labor. You don't want to look at the money being made and profit being made which is being REINVESTED into the economy.

Also, by clamping down on outsourcing you are rewarding people for being LAZY with their skills. If your "job moves overseas" isn't it YOUR responsiblity to upgrade your skills?

Why ask the government to babysit you?

[webmaster x]

Originally posted by BRISK
You might not like outsourcing, but that doesn't mean you can stop it.

Outsourcing is here to stay. Get used to it.

Exactly.

That's why it make me bust a gut laughing when guys like FletchXXX or AMP get all bent out of shape that MAYBE (just MAYBE) their skills are CHEAPER elsewhere.

Kinda makes me wonder... are people who hate outsourcing business owners or EMPLOYEES?

[webmaster x]

Originally posted by wdsguy
because the quality of the work sux

Who did you use and why does it suck?

[Spunky]

Originally posted by webmaster x
2 bucks a day is a lot of money in many parts of the world. Remember, according to a recent World Bank survey, 1.8 BILLION people make LESS than $1 USD a day.

Puts things in perspective, doesn't it.

So you feel sweat shops are justified?

[jade_dragon]

Nooooo you are looking at the system idealisticly as if those who outsource really care about what I just said.


There is a HUGE differance in the people working here and the people working there and that is PRICE OF LIVING. Even if a person did not want to live large and did not have a wife or kids and budgeted well they still have to buy food, clothing and pay rent. It just so happens that that all costs more in the U.S. than in 3rd world countries which is why your 3rd worlders can work for cheap and undercut domestic labor.


You can upgrade your skills all you want as a laborer here, if someone from HK or India will do even a shadow of the level of work you are offering a businessman is going to outsource anyway.

Please do not pretend that taking money out of this country and putting it into another is going to cause laborors and workers here to up their skills and lower their rates, that is not how the real world works. Untill you get the government to come in and lower the cost of living of everywhere in the United States it aint gonna happen. The goverment can lower taxes of big business and take away a big b.s. excuse of a lot of outsourcers which is "they tax me to much" but still people will outsource. Outsource = more money in the pockets of the rich. It does deteriorate the system of economics we have here but who cares right? You will be dead before it really hits and if you are rich you can always leave the US. it is a sinking ship right? So fuck it and let the poor worry about it and your kids kids......

[webmaster x]

Originally posted by spunky1
So you feel sweat shops are justified?

One man's sweat shop is one man's opportunity.

Not everyone can start out at the top. Let them prove their worth by starting out at the bottom and then by saving/planning/taking risks they can improve their lives.

Besides, I sincerely doubt whether you care if sweatshops exist or not. If you did, you'd go bucknaked and eat $500 salads cuz everything from your clothes, to your car, to your food, have "outsourced" materials from 3rd world countries.

So ease up on the moralistic bleeding heart argument and get back to talking Dollars and Cents.

[Steen2]

Originally posted by webmaster x
Who did you use and why does it suck?

http://www.infoway.us/


HORRIBLE - CRAP

[AlienQ - BANNED FOR LIFE]

My problem with outsourcing is simple.

Outsourcers have no problem killing out not only competition but themselves.

[Penthouse Tony]

What you argue for is nothing less than an end to free trade.

Originally posted by jade_dragon
Nooooo you are looking at the system idealisticly as if those who outsource really care about what I just said.


There is a HUGE differance in the people working here and the people working there and that is PRICE OF LIVING. Even if a person did not want to live large and did not have a wife or kids and budgeted well they still have to buy food, clothing and pay rent. It just so happens that that all costs more in the U.S. than in 3rd world countries which is why your 3rd worlders can work for cheap and undercut domestic labor.


You can upgrade your skills all you want as a laborer here, if someone from HK or India will do even a shadow of the level of work you are offering a businessman is going to outsource anyway.

Please do not pretend that taking money out of this country and putting it into another is going to cause laborors and workers here to up their skills and lower their rates, that is not how the real world works. Untill you get the government to come in and lower the cost of living of everywhere in the United States it aint gonna happen. The goverment can lower taxes of big business and take away a big b.s. excuse of a lot of outsourcers which is "they tax me to much" but still people will outsource. Outsource = more money in the pockets of the rich. It does deteriorate the system of economics we have here but who cares right? You will be dead before it really hits and if you are rich you can always leave the US. it is a sinking ship right? So fuck it and let the poor worry about it and your kids kids......

[webmaster x]

I respectfully beg to differ.


Outsourcing has been happening for a LONG ASS TIME now. Has car manufacturing stopped in the US/CAN?

NO.

Has manufacturing disappeared?

NO.

What has disappeared is waste. What has disappeared is the mentality that workers can retain 1950's skills and still make it.


Next stop: Medical systems outsourcing

[i]

Please do not pretend that taking money out of this country and putting it into another is going to cause laborors and workers here to up their skills and lower their rates, that is not how the real world works. Untill you get the government to come in and lower the cost of living of everywhere in the United States it aint gonna happen. The goverment can lower taxes of big business and take away a big b.s. excuse of a lot of outsourcers which is "they tax me to much" but still people will outsource. Outsource = more money in the pockets of the rich. It does deteriorate the system of economics we have here but who cares right? You will be dead before it really hits and if you are rich you can always leave the US. it is a sinking ship right? So fuck it and let the poor worry about it and your kids kids...... [/B]

[BRISK]

Originally posted by wdsguy
because the quality of the work sux

wrong

[Doctor Dre]

It's always a balance ... your economy cannot be driven from your own country alone ...

[webmaster x]

Originally posted by Sagi_AFF
What you argue for is nothing less than an end to free trade.

Good point. But does FREE TRADE really exist. Even within the framework of NAFTA etc, there are protected areas of trade.

I believe Jade's problem is less with free trade but with FREE ENTERPRISE due to his seeming support for government interference and regulation

[AlienQ - BANNED FOR LIFE]

Just within the past few years...

Outsourcing telephone and technical services has laid off entire divisions in American companies. Some even in the Semi conductor industry and wafer fabrication.

Yes Some Car Manufacturing plants have closed shop from outsourcing.

Not to mention the production of many things such as Shoe's and clothing hve gone over sea's.

Yes Outsourcing has impacted the American ecomomy in huge ways. Those are facts.

Where the fuck you been?

[webmaster x]

Originally posted by AlienQ
My problem with outsourcing is simple.

Outsourcers have no problem killing out not only competition but themselves.

See the info on world wage scales.

[FlyingIguana]

tariffs and shit are complete bs. but the avg person is too stupid to realize this and when they see a politician trying to do something to save their job they will suck the politicians cock no matter what

[AlienQ - BANNED FOR LIFE]

Originally posted by webmaster x
See the info on world wage scales.

Like I give a fuck all about the world.
I only care about what lands in my wallet and the things that have impacted it in some measure.
Ya think I give a fuck about some dude in a 3rd world country trying to make a buck? Fuck him... This aint charity and aint feeding some fuck in a 3rd world country just cuz he is poor. I will feed em if they are efficient.
So what is the question? Again? Why do I hate outsourcing?
Read above, it has put thousands of Americans out of business on our own soil.

I will cut outsourcers to pieces given chance and done so on numerous occasions.

I am makin a buck also and thats the way it is.

[tonkagunner]

Outsourcing is going to balance wages around the world by bringing down wages in the US.

[webmaster x]

Originally posted by tonkagunner
Outsourcing is going to balance wages around the world bring down wages in US.

Not really. US wages will always be high given the economic reality of the cost of living in the US.

[tonkagunner]

Originally posted by webmaster x
Not really. US wages will always be high given the economic reality of the cost of living in the US.

Cost of living goes down as wages go down. It is not to say that US will be worse off at lower wages if cost of living goes down with it.

[Penthouse Tony]

No free trade doesn't really exist. My point is simply that if you argue against outsourcing then importing must be even worse in your eyes.

Originally posted by webmaster x
Good point. But does FREE TRADE really exist. Even within the framework of NAFTA etc, there are protected areas of trade.

I believe Jade's problem is less with free trade but with FREE ENTERPRISE due to his seeming support for government interference and regulation

[stocktrader23]

Originally posted by AlienQ
Just within the past few years...

Outsourcing telephone and technical services has laid off entire divisions in American companies. Some even in the Semi conductor industry and wafer fabrication.

Yes Some Car Manufacturing plants have closed shop from outsourcing.

Not to mention the production of many things such as Shoe's and clothing hve gone over sea's.

Yes Outsourcing has impacted the American ecomomy in huge ways. Those are facts.

Where the fuck you been?

It's real fucking simple. 100 lazy fucknuts for employees cost say 2 million a year. 100 outsourced employees working longer hours costs $400,000. I think any business would take the 1.6 million in savings.

And for those of you saying the quality sucks, you have no idea.

[CDSmith]

It's a free market, so if you run an outsourcing company then run it, and be happy.... and shaddap already. You are but one cog in the wheel that makes up the industry, you are vying for a piece of the action just like the rest of us. I have no problem with you, I don't know why anyone would.

If your skills are solid and your work speaks for itself, then outsourcing companies shouldn't be a threat to you.

But if you run an outsourcing company.... the quality of work better be there, because if it isn't, and if your prices aren't BETTER than those of "regular" designers and programmers, then I say tough shit if you get fewer customers.

Your work has to be tight, your prices lower, and your workers have to do things in a timely manner always.

Really, what else is there to talk about here?

[AlienQ - BANNED FOR LIFE]

Hey...

Listen to what I wrote.

I do not like outsourcing, I think its bullshit but yeah its business and if a coin can be saved utilizing it then I am gonna run that bitch for all its worth till the law says I can't.


Its business not charity.
Do I have to like Outsourcing? Fuck no, Americans have lost jobs because of it for obvious reasons. My own government is not protecting them and if my government wont protect the common worker who am I to complaine in matters of business?

[2HousePlague]

The BIG problem with out-sourcing is that it exposes our national (US-only) economy to the same socio-eco class disparity that exists between the wealthiest nations and the poorest.

The REASON US companies outsourse is because they can pay a fraction of the labor costs to get the same job done.

BUT, unless they pass along the labor-cost savings to the US consumer (which they NEVER will), they are simply creating an American caste that can neither participate in the most lucrative labor sector, nor afford to buy the fruits of its productivity.

j-

[AlienQ - BANNED FOR LIFE]

Originally posted by 2HousePlague
The BIG problem with out-sourcing is that it exposes our national (US-only) economy to the same socio-eco class disparity that exists between the wealthiest nations and the poorest.

The REASON US companies outsourse is because they can pay a fraction of the labor costs to get the same job done.

BUT, unless they pass along the labor-cost savings to the US consumer (which they NEVER will), they are simply creating an American caste that can neither participate in the most lucrative labor sector, nor afford to buy the fruits of its productivity.

j-

Which brings us to the next chapter in America...

More on that later but the hint starts with Civil War. If the government won't protect its citizens and give em a job to get by its only a matter of time till Bored people turn into revolutionairies against a government that wont protect them.

Come 2020 or so America will be different.

[CamChicks]

The most serious 'problem' with outsourcing is that America is giving all its innovations away to places like China for short-term gains; but ultimately you're training a competitor. They will work for us for pennies for only so long before they open up their own factories; and companies there don't care about patent infringement or laws protecting tradesecrets/technology. We pay for the R&D and they take it for free. Everything that we have that we teach them how to build they will then build cheaper (outside and away from the US company that paid to hire and train them) and then they can price our companies out of business.

[CDSmith]

For the record, I've talked to several people over the past few months who have said they were less than thrilled with the work that certain outsourcing companies did for them. No names, but it is patently obvious to me that getting top quality work out of an outsourcing company is a hit-or-miss gamble.

And before you argue with what I just said, forget it. There was no reason for any of these people, who are all either company owners or admins, to lie about it. They are simply less than thrilled. Period. I would be surprised if any of them would again hire an outsourcing company for new projects, but you never know, it could happen. I do all my own work so it will never affect me.

It's the opinion of people who have actually hired outsourcing companies to do work that should carry the most weight here. Some are very happy I'm sure. But many are not, from what I'm hearing directly from certain people.

[BrainDead]

Originally posted by tonkagunner
Outsourcing is going to balance wages around the world by bringing down wages in the US.

yeah right! i agree with you!

[BRISK]

Originally posted by 2HousePlague
The BIG problem with out-sourcing is that it exposes our national (US-only) economy to the same socio-eco class disparity that exists between the wealthiest nations and the poorest.

The REASON US companies outsourse is because they can pay a fraction of the labor costs to get the same job done.

BUT, unless they pass along the labor-cost savings to the US consumer (which they NEVER will), they are simply creating an American caste that can neither participate in the most lucrative labor sector, nor afford to buy the fruits of its productivity.

j-

One word for you: Equilibrium

[BRISK]

Originally posted by CDSmith
For the record, I've talked to several people over the past few months who have said they were less than thrilled with the work that certain outsourcing companies did for them. No names, but it is patently obvious to me that getting top quality work out of an outsourcing company is a hit-or-miss gamble.

I keep hearing this argument from anti-outsourcing people. They say that finding good outsourcing employees to do good work is hit or miss.

Newsflash: The same is true of finding employees in countries like America, Canada, UK, etc...

I can find loads of shitty American programmers. I can find loads of shitty European designers. I can find loads of shitty outsourced employees too. Shitty skills are everywhere, but so are quality skills.

[webmaster x]

Originally posted by FlyingIguana
tariffs and shit are complete bs. but the avg person is too stupid to realize this and when they see a politician trying to do something to save their job they will suck the politicians cock no matter what

Exactly! The politicians GETS the VOTE but he buys it by raising barriers that causes the RETARDS who voted for him to lose their jobs. Isn't politics a BITCH or what?

[{fusion}]

1. outsourcing companies steal your ideas
2. they are overpriced normally as they are run by usa companies who markup a silly amount of money
3. english standard is poor, so mistakes happen alot.

thats the main 3.

an example is I used to use Dell all the time, they then moved there support to india. now you call they dont have a fucking clue what your talking about and cant understand you very well, it makes there support shit, which is the most important part of a company. now longer use dell for this reason.

Price is not an issue when you want a great image.

Maybe in 5 years the standard will improve but for now i think people prefer to pay extra for quality.

[CDSmith]

Originally posted by BRISK
I keep hearing this argument from anti-outsourcing people. They say that finding good outsourcing employees to do good work is hit or miss.

Newsflash: The same is true of finding employees in countries like America, Canada, UK, etc...

I can find loads of shitty American programmers. I can find loads of shitty European designers. I can find loads of shitty outsourced employees too. Shitty skills are everywhere, but so are quality skills.

Correct.

Except for one thing... The big draw that outsourcing companies rely on is the hook that "We are cheaper -- same quality or better work"

That moniker better be true. Fact is, often it isn't.



I am anti-outsourcing when it comes to local companies farming out work to foreigners and deleting jobs of local people, in that I don't like it much. But at the same time, the capitalist in me says that those people who are out of work are then free to pursue other avenues of opportunity. It is entirely up to them as to how much or how little money they earn.

To me capitalism means that you are free to become successful, or stay broke. It is up to each of us and that includes people who own outsourcing companies. The same principles hold true for me as well regarding competition with outsourcers or anyone...... that is, if I am losing out on business to outsourcing cmpanies, then MY OWN skills must be sharpened and improved, and my prices adjusted to fit the market, so that I can again be competitive and ensure it being worthwhile for others to hire me.

Thankfully I am diverse in all things, which means that only a small part of what I do is in direct competition with outsourcers and other designers.

[webmaster x]

Originally posted by CamChicks
The most serious 'problem' with outsourcing is that America is giving all its innovations away to places like China for short-term gains; but ultimately you're training a competitor. They will work for us for pennies for only so long before they open up their own factories; and companies there don't care about patent infringement or laws protecting tradesecrets/technology. We pay for the R&D and they take it for free. Everything that we have that we teach them how to build they will then build cheaper (outside and away from the US company that paid to hire and train them) and then they can price our companies out of business.

You're always training POSSIBLE competitors regardless of where you source your services/products. In fact, Id be more worried about 'training' the competition down the street than from across the globe cuz the guys down the street have easier access to my customers.

[PenisFace]

I don't like outsourcing. The reason is, you've got guys sitting in india in an office making 800 dollars a month, who can produce some amazing work... What they're making is nothing, compared to what they should be making with the talent they have.

My

[BRISK]

Originally posted by CDSmith
Correct.

Except for one thing... The big draw that outsourcing companies rely on is the hook that "We are cheaper -- same quality or better work"

That moniker better be true. Fact is, often it isn't.

In my case, it has been.

I've had outsourced employees for the past 2 years and have had great quality work.

[BRISK]

Originally posted by PenisFace
I don't like outsourcing. The reason is, you've got guys sitting in india in an office making 800 dollars a month, who can produce some amazing work... What they're making is nothing, compared to what they should be making with the talent they have.

My

You don't like outsourcing because you don't think the employees get paid enough?

[FlyingIguana]

Originally posted by PenisFace
I don't like outsourcing. The reason is, you've got guys sitting in india in an office making 800 dollars a month, who can produce some amazing work... What they're making is nothing, compared to what they should be making with the talent they have.

My

you do realize the cost of living is much much less? they can have a house full of servants on that kind of salary.

[CDSmith]

The best thing I can say here, to sum up my point, is that it is a free market. You either sink or swim. If you run an outsourcing company and you are asking "Why do people HATE outsourcing?".... I took it to mean that people who regularly hire designers or contract out programming work are starting to not hire them.

If that is the case, and I think that it is, then it is because of some of the reasons people have listed above. I also think that often you guys may find that if a company has hired "an outsourcing company" in the past and were not satisfied with the work, they might tend to lump in all outsourcing companies as all being the same.... that being "outsourcing companies"..... resulting in that company saying something along the lines of "I hired an oursourcing company before. They sucked. Never again will I hire any outsourcing company."

Do you follow? People seem to lump them all into one singular group. It isn't right of course, but that is a hurdle you outsourcing people should be aware of if you aren't already.

[CamChicks]

Originally posted by webmaster x
You're always training POSSIBLE competitors regardless of where you source your services/products. In fact, Id be more worried about 'training' the competition down the street than from across the globe cuz the guys down the street have easier access to my customers.

In the US, if someone steals your idea or copies your product, there is legal recourse to stop them and/or recover damages. The government is on your side in such a dispute. There are no such protections when dealing with somewhere like China. That's a very bad thing in the long run if we cannot innovate faster than they copy. (which is not very realisitic to hope for .. research and development of new technology takes time)