In the past, I was very vocal in my displeasure with Epoch/Paycom. That was in the past, a couple of years ago. I think Chris has done a tremendous job in turning Epoch around. So much so, that I now trust them with my business and would feel comfortable refering my mother to them should she ever want to get into the internet porn field.

As for pre-checked cross sells, I personally disagree. I think it is a bad business practice and should not be allowed, that is my opinion, that is how I personally choose to do business.

It cracks me up how people refer to the business practices of the "players" in the business. What the "players" do, doesn't mean dick. I wouldn't trust most of the "players" in this business to watch my car while I ran into the store to buy a six pack. MANY of the "players" in this business got rich because for the most part the business has been, and continues to be, completely unregulated. There is A LOT of dirty money in this business.

because you were talking about Morals...... he(Nysus) thinks its wrong to do crossells, yet he wouldnt mind using the same money to further his own ends.

Thank you for your post. :)

I am NOT SAYING ANYTHING AGAINST EPOCH/PAYCOM - As I posted above the reason I started this thread was I was shocked how Epoch/PayCom's CEO acted towards me; I didn't expect it as everything I have heard and seen from Epoch/PayCom has been nothing but great.

And thank you for properly seperating dislike for pre-checked cross-sales, and individuals or companies.

Matt

oh ok lol Excuse me I just got up no coffee yet :)

I bet that if you find a big mainstream site and join their email list, you'll be presented with 6 to 10 boxes, pre-check or pre-un-checked to receive or not receive offers etc.
Thats the same idea.

Also, I'm going to bet that if allowing the webmaster to choose processor page options was more common, that you would see not only 1 or 2, but 5 or 6 crossale boxes on the majority of join pages. Half saying "Click here if you want xxxxxx" and half saying "Click here if you do not want xxxxx".

This is ancient internet form practice..

Note: Sometimes I look for no cross sales, sometimes I dont much care.

As long as a company isn't "posting" data, then it's simply a matter of your own preference in what you want to promote.

What the fuck are you talking about? Please elaborate.

Of course I'm going to be around and benefitting from pre-checked cross-sales, most everyone in this industry currently is.

So of I'm going to make money through them while I need to I will because it is a means to an end.

For example, TopBucks converts extremely well with some of their sites for me, and yes, they have pre-checked cross-sales. If there was an equal alternate which there will be eventually that don't have pre-checked cross-sales (or if TopBucks offered non-pre-checked join pages) then I will use them.

Matt

Poor kid could not make a living online so he blames his morals. Old story seen it 10,000 times.

I have absolutely no problem whatsoever with un-checked cross sale boxes. There is nothing wrong with presenting options to the customer. It is no different than asking "would you like fries with that" The customer is presented a choice, and is involved and active in the transaction.

Your analogy about email lists is ridiculous. If each pre-checked box on an email list meant that the customer was going to get dinged 29.95 a month on his credit card until cancellation for each pre-checked box, you absolutely would NOT see that.

On mainstream its prechecked to recieve email offers spam not to charge your credit card big difference.

HELLOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO

I repsonded directly to you on page 1 ......if you dont care to read it, well????

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Nysus
Wow. Lovely. Who are you trying to impress?

Isn't BUSINESS hustling / making deals with people, getting investors or partners, to attempt to "get a piece of their action in return for your work" ?

LOL. At least don't be an idiot if you try to attack someone.

Matt
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



I'm not trying to impress anyone, let alone you. Your only business model seems to be trying to part people from their money to invest in your schemes. You need some growing up to do before you start attacking others



That was my reply ........I guess You are just too busy listening to your self

:1orglaugh

You're right.

There's a difference between being billed money and receiving email though; and I still think it's dishonest and not moral.

And, you're right again about 5 or 6 cross-sale boxes - for some.

Some people, like who spam email, who don't have surfers or bookmarkers that they care about, of course they'd want to maximize their present POINT OF SALE revenues - because they won't have the option to make more money from them later, most likely.

Ancient internet form practice doesn't mean it's ethical. :)

Exploitation isn't ethical, yet it happens, and it's quite common, doesn't mean it's the best thing.

Matt

Sorry, I missed it.

Once again, you're using defaming words such as schemes when you're referring to basic business practices.

You need to learn what's an attack and what's not an attack. You're attacking me; I've been asking for relevant replies.

Matt

Guy's, it *is* a fair analogy. The analogy isn't the money, and incidently when you have a box you have to check or uncheck to receive email offers, it's not "spam" ;) (thats a pet peeve, lol)

Anyway, the analogy is identical in that the customer must stop and read and perform an action. Either to receive the add-on, or to avoid receiving the add-on.

I'll say again, when I specifically check processor pages on sites I'm considering promoting, I will often avoid altogether if there is (in my opinion) overly agressive cross sales.

So don't think I'm all fuzzy and warm and asking for more pre checked cross sales.

I'm just stating that hey, yes it's one of those things that is out there, and the reason it's out there must be a compelling one.

Obviously the place to express displeasure is with the affiliate program operators.

But it's a valid option..

The idea is the same, but the analogy is not equal.

If you approach an affiliate program and express your dislike of their cross-sales, they won't care.

Public awareness throughout the industry is what is needed in order to force affiliate programs to care.

Matt

Sorry, Matt, never meant to imply that any of this had anything to do with whether you were "liked" or "disliked". I said before, I like you, remember? ;)






Tonys post was one of the most naive things anyone has ever said... "we all know what is morally right and wrong " .... if that were the case then he would not be in the Adult Entertainment Business. Keep in mind that I am not criticizing morals....I have plenty of them....I am only stating that they are nothing more than opinions and can not be argued as FACT. Because my morals may differ from yours it makes it an opinion.





Matt, with all due respect, the title of this thread doesnt say anything about Cross Sales or Morals...it calls out a specific person so don't even think that you "are not attacking anyone" because you are.





See above Re: "Like vs Dislike"




I only *wish* I was in the same financial capacity as Chris....nobody in this business is in the same financial capacity as Chris....Chris came into this industry with more money that anyone on this board will ever see in their lifetime.

With that said, however, let me point out *REPSECTFULLY* that your point sounds like simple class envy and that has always been a pet peeve of mine. JMHO.




Nah....just a metaphor.....don't read to far into it. It simply means, is this argument worth having? Save some for a rainy day. :)



Matt...you and I both know that it was a sarcastic post like so many on this board. The board is "Go Fuck Yourself"...dont take it so seriously. It begins to look like you are desperately trying to find something to attack so you chose to use a sarcastic remark and make something of it....not saying that is what you are doing, I am just telling you what it looks like.


As always, Matt....I respect you saying that you think...I respect your right to tell us your opinions....just be prepared to hear others back. I keep waiting for someone to throw my banner flying on your posts in my face, but the reality is that I respect you having the right to an opinion and just because we disagree from time to time does not make you a bad person or change my opinion of you.


--T

The crazy add-ons that a car salesman pulls on us isnt ethical either ;)

I'm basically agreeing that I dont care for them personally, and when I buy something online (usually a product rather than a service), I read and re-read and read once again the whole page carefully and closely before I press that final Submit button that takes my money..

I'm quite sure everyone does who cares.. you, me, everyone.

I feel similarly about pop-ups incidently, and thats a fair comparison as well. I'm betting that 90% of people really hate them like I do when I'm surfing. Yet we see people working full-time to circumvent the actions that the surfer *specifically* takes to avoid them.

Both the same answer.. the people doing it are realizing a return on investment that makes it profitable to do so...

Not sure what else to add to this other than everyone do your own homework and make the choices of products and services to promote that fall in line with how you want to do business. If a sponsor looks great to you but you dont care for the processor page options, let it be known..

Naive ? I have worked in the adult business from strip clubs to jack shacks to the net off and on for 22yrs. So dont get confused with your success on the net that your a wise old sage. I disagree you can be in adult and be morally correct . I never lie or screw people over I do business with, I treat my customers like the wonderful special people they are . They give me the oportunity to work with my wife and not to have go to a day job. I thank god every night for my business. Now because I do have morals do I fuck my self out of opportunites to make alot more money ,yes I do but I enjoy looking at myself in the mirror.

The FACT is that MOST people don't. Most likely YOU do because you are familiar with the practice. MOST people aren't and don't. That is what makes its so profitable. The companies that use pre-checked cross sales understand this, that is why they do it.

Crack dealers realize a substantial return on their investment as well. So do bank robbers. So do con artists. If return on investment is a factor in determining what is ethical or not, than this becomes a whole different argument.

Pre-checked email boxes, pop-ups, etc are not the same as pre-checked cross sale boxes, they aren't in the same league. You are trying to compare apples and pencils.

Tony....you dont know me and I dont know you....I simply pointed out that you made a naive statement. In this post you made a very profound statment "I disagree you can be in adult and be morally correct". I agree with you 100%. It goes both ways.

Let me clarify something before anyone thinks that I am attacking morals...I AM NOT. I am simply pointing out that my morals may be different than yours.

EXAMPLE: I bought a hosting company a while back that had one client who hosted "Non-Nude Teen Sites" (the customer was worth about $10,000 per month in revenue). Within 30 days of buying the company I asked the new customer to seek other hosting because I did not like hosting that type of site. I never said it was right or wrong, I never questioned his "right" to operate that type of site...I simply said that I did not want to host it because of *MY* morals. Does that make me right and him wrong? No. It simply shows that my morals and his are different.

EXAMPLE 2: My grandmother would roll over in her grave if she knew what I was happily hosting. Does that make her morals right and mine wrong? Again, no....just a difference of opinion.

So...please do not mistake my points as being pro-Morals or anti-Morals...I am just pointing out that the differ from person to person.


--T

I can agree with you on that :thumbsup
Now if you came to our webmaster networking with Kathi , you would get to know me and to know me is to love me :)

!@#$ I just wrote up a reply to your post Tony and it didn't go through (30 second post rule) and when I went back it didn't keep it!@

I need to go, I'll be back later to reply.

Matt

I just want to re-state the facts of this thread;

I'm not attacking Epoch/PayCom. Everything I have ever heard from anyone of Epoch/PayCom has been good.

I however was very shocked to hear from Epoch/PayCom's CEO Chris Mallick responding to me in another thread; "Were you not held enough as a child?" It was out of line, childish, pointless and very unprofessional to come from the CEO of such a large and well-known company.

Throughout the rest of this thread I have been questioning the morals of pre-checked cross-sales. I don't agree with them, though others seem to take that as a personal attack because they are using them.

I hope that this thread will continue to bring awareness to folks as to why pre-checked cross-sales exist and why they are not honest to surfers and not moral or ethical in my opinion, and in many others' opinions; I am not alone, and you will see that with people that I don't have any connection with post and make replies with the same beliefs and feelings as myself.

Anyways, I do have to go out for a bit.. I'll be back later.

Matt

Chris is one of the most outstanding people in the business.

Do you LIVE to talk shit Matt?

Brad, don't be an idiot please. Did you even read any of this thread? Or even my last post?

You people need to learn to read first before actually posting a comment. Sadly most of GFY doesn't do that.

Matt

Matt, one very important thing. I'm not going to argue the pros and cons of cross-sales because it's too lengthy an argument and it's not my place to argue it, but I do want to point out one huge flaw in what you're doing.

First, moral and ethics are based on personal values. Just because you think cross-sales are morally/ethically wrong, it doesn't mean that everyone thinks they're morally/ethically wrong. And it doesn't mean that those who disagree with you are any worse off.

Millions of people think porn is morally/ethically wrong. If one of these people tried to force their beliefs on you (which is essentially when you're doing here to some extent), would you respect them? Would you listen to them?

Want more examples? Say your younger sister/brother/cousin was dying of something, and a blood transfusion could help save his/her life, and you were the only person who could authorize it. Would you? Some religions think it would be morally or ethically wrong to do that. But they wouldn't force their beliefs on you.

On the flip side, some religions or societies think it's morally/ethically correct to allow a husband to kill a wife if she's caught cheating, but not to allow the reverse. But they're not here in Canada or the US advocating for that.

You're entitled to your opinion. We all are. But none of us are entitle to force it upon others. Doing so only makes you look worse in the eyes of many. You have no right to have a holier-than-thou attitude because of your opinion.

This thread has over 100 replies and over 30 participants. Of those 30+ participants, the vast majority aren't taking your side. And I suspect that's based on your attitude rather than your arguments, because they do have some merit.

Well, if a lot of companies are doing it and its become generally accepted practice, then why not. Expedia, Amazon (although less aggressive), dating sites, adult sites all commonly practice similiar upsell and cross-sale methods. It's not unethical at all, they're trying to sell you additional similiar products. Granted the pre-checked is a little aggressive but nevertheless it is a legitimate means of making additional sales.




I defend them because they're a legtimate business practice. If it wasn't, I wouldn't be promoting those programs. Of course it adds to my bottom line and I don't deny that.




What's wrong with doing both? Whether you like it or not, this is a business in which everyone wants to maximize their bottom line and so long as cross-sales are around, they'll be part of this mix.

WG

:1orglaugh

Hell, McDonalds, convenience stores and Future Shop do it as well. And from a psychological stand point, a verbal cross-sale attempt is a lot harder to refuse than a pre-checked cross-sale is to uncheck.

Ever say no to the extended warranty offer at Future Shop? I often don't. And when I refuse it, not only do I feel cheap, but the salesman asks me if I'm sure and then reiterates the benefits for me, empasizing that if anything were to go wrong, I'd potentially save a lot of money.

In my opinion, that's a lot more agressive than a pre-checked cross-sale that I can simply uncheck if I'm not interested and not have something make me feel cheap or unsure about my decision.

Amazon doesnt precheck them ,thats the difference. If you want to try and cross sell the customer a hundred different things during the buying process. Thats cool just dont precheck them, thats not selling thats hoping they arent paying attention.

matt i wasnt attacking you man!! :)

but on the subject of cross sales.... you assume that everyone that leaves them checked do not/will not want it and that they just overlooked it...

i have to disagree with you on that, if i was a surfer i would say what the hell its and offer to see another site i would not have known about unless i had this offer..

no big deal..

on the other hand, if it wasnt checked, i would be like well nah i dont want it, i just want this one...

its like when u go to mcdonalds and you cant decide if you want to upsize to large.. if she asks u say.. ahh ok.

if she doesnt, you just get the medium.

That's why I mentioned Amazon was less aggressive. But their system of correlating similiar items on checkout is really ingenious and works very well. Psyko514 also gave a couple really good examples at fast food restaurants and extended warranties on point of sales purchases. I'll admit that prechecked is aggressive but still legitimate.

WG

I had to respond to this before I read page 3

The key sentence here that makes me laugh in your face is:
the key phrases being "I have worked" and "off and on"

man quit crying, why do you have to broadcast your little hurt feelings?

you obviously WEREN'T held enough as a child

...and clearly not held enough as children.

I respectfully disagree :)

In the sense that pre-checked email offers and pre-checked cross sells both require an action on the part of the user, I believe it's apples to apples. I said that in a previous post. The only difference is in one case you get emails, in the other you get billed. Both results of the same in-action.

In the case of pop-ups:cross sales, the analogy was that chances are that nobody particularly LIKES to deal with them, yet we all still do.

In the case of pop-ups, in many (most?) cases, the surfer is, shall we say, actively "unchecking" the option with a popup blocker. So it could easily be argued that circumventing a popup blocker is FAR more unethical of a practice. Akin to rechecking a box that the surfer unchecked, no?

And let me say that if we are going to cater to the most dimwitted person who cant read a page before spending money, well hell lets all just quit :)

Again, respectfully.

this thread is useless without people being held as children

Maybe Chris would like to get back to nme and explain why my application for processing has not been approves or denied.

Only been 8 months now.

Will have a look and see if they took the money out of my account as a pre payment.

Have ICQed the rep dealing with me, he does not bother to reply anymore.

Great service Chris.

At the end of the day the surfer / member has the right to charge back a sale he thinks was not requested. If pre checked cross sales produced such confusion wouldn't Epoch have a hugh CB ratio and wouldn't that stop cross sales so that their CB ratio was in line with Visa's requirements. That seems not to be the case as Epoch still offer cross sales. Remember we as webmaster have the right to use cross sales or not ?



:2 cents:

Going to have to quote Chris on this one, "Were you not held as a child," Nysus?

You got your attention, now move on, dumbass...