You are probably right but we don't know their plan.

Yesterday I cancelled a one-week trial that I let it lapse into two weeks. Got an email from the webmaster that 9.95 would be refunded and enjoy the site until the end of the month, and please signup again since they would not re-bill and I would not have access next month. (I only stated that I forgot to cancel my one week subscription and didn?t want to be charged for another week.)

Well if I was a surfer, I would probably pull out the cc at the end of the month since the member?s area wasn?t bad. I guess it all depends on customer service.

I have to agree with this post. I didn't know those things were a part of the program. It is bad for the industry and it's the reason why Visa has clamped down and why American Express stopped processing adult altogether. It's the reason why Visa may continue to clamp down if things like this continue.

For those that are comparing this to working in adult are way off base. There is nothing immoral about sex and selling sex between consenting adults. Also those that think people should always read the fine print. Either you're joking or you're the 1% of the population that spends hours reading fine print on all the products you buy everyday - not realistic and I've never met anybody like you in real life.

APC content and sites are nice in my view. Original ideas and interesting concepts. I would rather see them payout less instead of paying more and having to cross sale members on things they don't know they're signing up for. But I know why they did it...people want to get paid $40 per signup regardless of the longterm consequences.

Jayeff already pointed out the hyprocrisy. Same people defening these tactics in this thread will be the same people saying these are the tactics ruining the industry in another thread.

This has nothing to do with the quality of the APC sites. Those are excellent, it's the marketing of those sites that we're not agreeing with. Sometimes good well intentioned people do things they shouldn't. Megapornbucks had tons of high profle defenders in the thread that revealed they scammed people. Were they good people like those defending said they were? Who knows. but nobody had a problem with their sites per se, just the way it was marketed to surfers.

with a hardon nonetheless


:warning

Well see right:

When people accept a trend or an idea - it usually grows on and on untill accepted by the majority. Some of the biggest paysites use the same methods of milking signups.

So really, aint shit you or me can dp :\

UMM people this is not specific to APC, it is Paycom's t&c. I dont think APC has control over this..

its like this for all sites that process thru paycom.

I just read my T&C for my site that processes thru paycom and it says the same thing..

My post in this thread isn't personal... not directed at the program in question or any of the people posting in this thread.

It never hurts to state the obvious: just because someone is doing something, doesn't mean that it is:

1) Legal - to the letter of the law. Think to yourself, how would the Federal Trade Commission view the consumer experience?
2) Moral - does the business practice meet your personal standards, would you feel comfortable as the consumer and similarly would you feel comfortable with, say, a mom or dad as a customer of theirs? You are a wiser consumer than most.
3) Viable - let's assume it works very well today... but what is the longevity of the business model?

Think about each of those and decide where you stand. I am certain that the crowd here would be evenly divided for and against promoting a something that functions in the manner which was described earlier in the thread.

For the most part, affiliates whose business models are built on PPS need not concern themselves with the long term viability of any one merchant. If they're slick, they use SSI and could change out links quickly... however, I don't know that the ramifications are as small for those who are "gallery dependant". Eventually, if a merchant goes out of business it stands to reason that the affiliate takes only a small loss because he has been paid already for most sales that have been made. In short? If you patronize a program that doesn't appear to have long term viability then appreciate your payouts as "getting it while the gettin' is good".

Aggressive affiliate and consumer sales tactics increase risk dramatically. A high PPS is an aggressive sales tactic, same with over-rides on top of that, etc. Pre-checked cross sells with short cancellation windows is obviously aggressive consumer marketing. Longevity wise, these are both tough on the merchant for a few reasons:

1) High PPS payouts attract organized crime in the form of affiliate fraud. It doesn't matter if you know how to steal consumer information, there are groups out there doing it and programs that are attractive because of fast and big payouts attract them like bees to honey. I'm not saying it's impossible to surmount the fraud attempts, simply that it IS difficult and ultimately very costly financially and to one's chargeback ratios. Every big program fights affiliate fraud, perhaps in even greater numbers than consumer fraud... the bastards that simply don't want to pay and chargeback.

2) Beyond fraud concerns merchants have graduated to the notion of not wanting traffic from everybody. When you're dealing in large numbers, you find that conversions, refunds, recurring billing and cancellations can and do vary from one affiliate to the next. This does mean the way the numbers fall means that many large merchants are cancelling small, unproductive or potentially risky affiliates. Essentially, all traffic is not created equal.

3) The lifeblood of every merchant is their ability to accept credit cards online. These rules are finite. It's all about the chargeback and refunds ratio... the more you push the envelope with the consumer, the more you flirt with the limits of what is acceptable.

Finally.. where do I stand, what do I think.. I'm quite sure nobody cares, but this subject interests me so I am happy to share my opinion.

I do not know the reasoning for the "must cancel 24 hours before" condition that was spoke of. The first thing that comes to my mind is that is in the terms and conditions to limit liability in case of technical malfunction. I believe the MOST important thing in this scenario is that if a consumer cancels within hours of the recur time and date that the rebill doesn't happen. I don't believe that just because it stipulates the cancellation needs to be 24 hours in advance that this is what actually needs to happen. Perhaps someone with real knowledge of the process can teach us all about it.

On a more personal level, there are two questions I asked myself:

1) As an affiliate, would I promote it. The sites are beautiful and from what I hear the content is good, two vitally important factors in my book. The sticking point for me on promotion for me might be the pre-checked cross-sell, perhaps because it is a 1 day trial which seems a bit rushed. I don't believe there is anything technically wrong with the process, options and pricing. For me, the true test is do I think if my dad signed up for it would he end up confused and rebilling on that cross sell and I think the answer is yes. I prefer the recurring business model, personally, so when I look for what to promote I look for sites with sticky content where the retention has the best potential. My experience to date is that retention on 'flavor of the month' reality sites isn't necessarily that great. The bonus, these days, is that everyone is throwing as much content as possible at the consumers inside their members area.

2) As a processor, which I am now with 123Bill, would I bill for it. Absolutely! Presuming that the members areas content is strong and matches those tours, I'd be happy to be one of their billing alternatives. The content is legal, plentiful and it's obvious that the marketing tools and tours are excellent - exactly the kind of clients I look for. We don't allow for cross sells so as a stand-alone, recurring membership it would be a site we'd be proud to do transactions for. For them to be viable on our financial model, they would need a differential payout for our alternative because it would be financially difficult to give $35 PPS with our fee structure. $15 or $20, sure, but to pay affiliates more than that one would be risky if retention wasn't excellent.

...that's it! Just wanted to jump in and give my :2 cents:

I think the program site and pay sites all look teriffic. I can only imagine that the galleries, etc as just as nice. If you're into PPS and don't have any other objections then I can only guess this type of program is right up your alley. Good luck everyone!

Cheers,

Brad

I have heard the Hawgs are some of the richest guys in the business.

They have 1 cross sell.. They dont scam people on trials, you pay for 3 days, you get 3 days, you also get more exclusive and quality content then any porn site online.

Those sites do kick ass though, I gotta say...

I don't blam them, i would do the same. You got to make as much as possible now.What the hawgs are doing is not that bad compared to what other guys used to do when they had their own merchant accounts.

you get 3 days but you need to cancel 24 hours before the end of the 3 day trial...

Imagine if amazon paid its affiliates $35 for a $5 book sale.

Its all about how YOU want to make money if you want to get paid $35 a trial then dont complain when sponsors have to upsell and xsell to make it all profitable.
If you guys do not like it then send your traffic to a revshare program with no exit and no xsells and get your 50%.

People bitch about xsells and exit traffic but still want the highest payouts possible. Maybe adult players club could come out with a no xsell no exit no upsell site and payout $20 or so a join but how many people would promote that over the $35 program. I would be very interested to see .

Nasty D is all good but they got 2 prechecked boxes , 1 for spam and 1 for bangbus 3 day trial . Not very clean IMO.

Good observations.....possibly you can check out www.AdultLounge.com and let me know if we ( mistakingly ) have anything even close to erros i shall say rather than "tricks" which we will not tolerate.

And we pay $35 per sale BUT $10 on trial ( we loose $5 ) and $25 more if the trial converts ( and our average monthly is $29 ) so we break even...giving you the $35.

Let me know i would appreciate the obsvervation and input..

thanks

What I find hilarious is that so many people still think that sponsors can't pay $35 per sale without all the shady shit. Of course they make more with the shady shit but getting rid of it wouldn't put them in the poorhouse.

What does everyone think, that they pay the webmaster $35 and they only keep a buck or two? Please, if that were the case the big promotors would clear more than the site owners and there would be no need to start your own sites as you could make more promoting someone elses.

It's smoke and mirrors to the webmasters just like it's smoke and mirrors to the customers. Open your eyes people.

So you mean my billing descriptor will soon look like this:

OX *Jetchrg.com (company name before processor)

Interesting???? Ox is so straight up it appears to me (via the billing descriptor) they are having cb issues (maybe due to the x-sales nasty sends that account to bangbus?). Once again these is just my opinion from what I am seeing on their join form. Let me know if I am mistaken.

Sounds GREAT. $10 per signup. Where do I signup??? hahah

Nothing personal but $10 per trial join is NOT something I as a webmaster would promote IMO.

Did you miss the $25 more if the trial converts?

Funny how 80% of the bashers on here are people who LOVE recurring...

PLEASE PLEASE show screencaps of ANY recurring program making you more than $35 per signup...Just show PROOF of how great recurring is. This was challenged on another board and not ONE person posted any screencaps.

I got traffic for days, and I sent to a few recurring prgrams (some of the big names) ..average per signup $19...and conversion ratios were terrible. Just a waste of traffic sent.

Nope I saw it..Did you forget retention these days is 20-30%...So you get that extra $25 on say to be conservative 25 of the 100 joins you send...Quick math check

100 joins sent - $10 each - total $1K
25 recur - $25 each - total $625

You just made $1625

Sent to any normal $35 per trial program (not just us)
100 trial signups - $35 each - $3500

$3500 or $1625??? What # you want?

edited: spelling fix

Very good point...If we had that option I GUARANTEE you less than 10% of the webmasters would promote that method.

Thanks for the elementary explanation but my math skills are just fine. At least 5th grade level I would say. I asked if you read that part based on your response. You made it sound like it was $10 flat.

I did read it but the $25 on the recur still dont make up for the LOW $10 on trial signups. They are basically taking ZERO RISK.

If you want to open a webmaster program with small risk, just open a recurring program. Anybody can open one of those.

hey raffi
https://wnu.com/jsp/jsp/common/terms...e=tbyr862 t7b

Trial Subscriptions: If you purchase a trial subscription, you hereby agree that the Paycom may immediately authorize your credit card (or other approved facility) in the amount equal to the then-current monthly rate. The Company and/or Paycom will only charge that amount to your credit card (or other approved facility) if you elect not to terminate your trial subscription prior to becoming a regular subscriber. If you purchase a trial subscription, and decide to terminate your trial subscription, you must do so AT LEAST one (1) day prior to the end of the Trial Period and you will not be charged any further. If you do not cancel at least one (1) day prior to the end of the Trial Period, you are agreeing to continue as a regular subscriber upon the terms and conditions for regular subscriptions set forth herein, and you authorize the Company to charge your credit card (or other approved facility) at the then-current monthly rate on a monthly basis until you request termination of your subscription according to the terms hereof. If you have a question about a transaction on your credit card statement, or wish to cancel a trial subscription, please click here to contact Customer Service.

Its obvious to me this guy just wanted to find SOMETHING wrong with the program. I appreciate him bringing this to my attention and I will get it fixed in our TOS.

Does he really think if somebody didnt email me 2 hours before his trial recurred to cancel I would not cancel him?? Give me a break. The only reason MOST programs have it in there is to stop surfers from hitting you up the day of the rebill in the afternoon and wanting to cancel while the rebill has already happened in the morning. So by saying 1 day it makes them know to be safe to cancel the day before it ends.

I will clean up the wording in our TOS tomorrow at the office.

I was going to chime in.. but SAK is doing just fine... ...:thumbsup


FYI... higher credits can come from aggressive billing.. the majority of high chargebacks come from bad resellsers.... manage the webmasters sending you traffic.. and cbs are really not a problem...

Well, we pay $35 on converts instead of on trials...if you visit any of our sites you will not find pop ups, upsales, cross sales, consoles, etc...thats why we pay on converts. Maybe in the future we will but we are trying to provide quality service to our surfers.

Also, just so that you know MOST of our affiliate partners are smart enough to go with our rev. share option for life of a member.

Why would you just want $35 even on trials if you can make at least 50% ( $15 if $30 monthly ) for life of a member. Our average retention is about 3 months now... so $15 x 3 = $45 which is higher by the way :winkwink: than $35...

Some very interesting (and intelligent) responses to the thread. But, to be honest, I didn't initially think the information I was sharing was all that ground-breaking.

But to my surprise, this thread revealed that a large number of webmasters DIDN'T know that these scam tactics are being used by many of the PPS programs.

When the very webmasters who make their livings from this industry don't know how the sign-up process works, is it any surprise that the consumer is taken somewhat by surprise.

As a side note to the sad state of the industry - When Playboy signed an agreement with Adult.com to promote their sites online, I sent a letter off to Playboy's editor. Here was a company (Plyaboy) that had managed to survive censorship, persecution and more obstacles then most any other company could weather...and they came out on top.
How did they do it?..by offering a superior product which dealt with sensitive issues..and to do it with dignity and class.
So, when I saw their sites under the adult.com flagship, with the same cross-sells and hidden "trial membership" shell games...this was a sad day indeed... And signaled the end of a proud business era for the Playboy brand.

If this is the case then every join is worth $90 to you. Thus paying out $50 up front should be NO PROBLEM and you would take over the adult net and still make $40 per join profit. Yes?

i doubt anyone will take you up on the offer to show proof because good recurring programs are 1) hard to find.. and 2) the good ones are cash cows. the recurring programs where retention is longer than 2 months will easily make you more than $35 per signup!

:2 cents:

These days? 8 years ago retention was just as bad for programs that didn't deliver. The average surfer isn't any more stupid than the average webmaster: if a site doesn't have what it promised, they cancel. It's not rocket science.

And if you base partnership income on sites geared to the PPS model, of course it is going to look ridiculous. But how come all the PPS fans conveniently forget sponsors like Karups PC, Scoreland and others that for years have been keeping their members even longer than most AVS programs?

When Visa first came down on us, everyone knew exactly why. Did we learn anything? A few of the worst practises may have softened some, but the main reaction seems to have been to start up $1 and $10 programs, to try to stay inside the CB limits. Oh and the rate at which some sponsors roll out new versions of their programs seems to have speeded up.

Really how smart is it to be all but begging Visa to tighten up even more? Or to be acting as if this is 1998 and most of our potential customers are still newbies? Why is it so hard to recognize that if online porn generates the money it does despite the BS we dish out, it would be worth far more without it.

We don't need to trick people into buying porn: they want to! Bandwidth is cheap. Content is cheap. Why is it apparently so bloody difficult just to play straight...

While I respect your opinion, you must remember we are in a sales busines.

Agressive billing happens in ALL industries at different levels just not the adult industry. 1 quick example.

LA Fitness - Join as a monthly member there. Pay a $200 up front fee, and $39.95 a month. Go try to cancel. They will NOT cancel you at the gym. They give you a FORM tofill out and MAIL to them as a hardcopy. In no way will they make it easy and allow you just to cancel face to face.. AND on the form they give you to fill out, it says they cancel you 60 DAYS from receiving it. So you get billed for 1-2 more months after trying to cancel.

I agree pre check x-sales are agressive BUT the terms are clearly laid out on the trial membership length and amount as well as the recurring amount. It is NOT hidden in a TOS or some small print in a contract somewhere, but right above the Join button and easy to read.

you would have to pay me 100 per sale which is impossible so I will glady stay with recurring. 15 bucks per month and look at some of these customers for 1 shemale site.


http://www.feetfantasys.com/rebill1.gif

http://www.feetfantasys.com/rebill2.gif

http://www.feetfantasys.com/rebill3.gif

:glugglug

sadly it's because these are the same webmasters that believe there is too much free porn and that surfers don't want to pull out their wallets and pay for porn. when paysite owners realize that CONTENT QUALITY is king and surfers actually want to stay in their site, maybe they won't feel the need to trick surfers into signing up with all the gimmicks. sites like ND with tons of quality content updated weekly, i'm sure easily has 50%+ retention.

S.A.K...And what happens if the surfer doesn't email you..(we both know that the chance of this happening are very slim indeed). They will in most likelyhood simply go to Paycom, try and cancel, and if its gone past the "one day before end of trial" timepoint...they get charged for the rebill. Please correct me if I am wrong.

Plus, how does the 1 day trial cross-sell work? If I take membership out at 8:00 p.m., does it rebill at midnight. And if at midnight, is it midnight in my time-zone or yours. And if yours, strange thing is I looked and looked and can't find anything on the sign-up form that would tell me exactly what time-zone you may be in. So, my midnight might be your 3:00 a.m. And guess what, I just got "rebilled"

Or am I just terribly mistaken, and a 3 day trial gives a full 72 hours and a one day trial gives 24 hours.

And, I should clear up that I was not specifically looking for anything wrong with your program. As you can see from my history on GFY, I treat ALL programs which I believe mislead the consumer equally.

P.S. Comparing sales tactics with a fitness club doesn't exactly fill me with confidence. I don't know about where you live...but around here, fitness clubs aren't generally up for "Business of the Year". What's next..."proudly managed using the ENRON principles of better business".

It isn't.. There's a whole bunch of people making a quick buck, some making a lot of them. Those that build their fires only out of kindling won't burn for very long. Survival of the fittest! Let's all make a mental note to see who's still around in 12... 24... 36 months. Don't think that the FTC won't eventually have their day with many of these people. Perhaps some of these people would be better suited putting some money in a legal defense fund instead of into those new spinners on their car. LOL

:winkwink:

Cheers,

Brad

bahahaha...

just 3 yrs ago.. retention was over 40%.. before that even higher... surfers are getting smarter.... why stick around when they can "try out a new site" tommorow... it has nothing to do with the membres section.. it has to do with the quality of traffic.... those old sites you mentioned.. still do great... but partly b/c they have old members from the beginning... and i'm sure they too have seen a decline in the average retaining member...

again.... this has nothing to do with chargebacks... I know you like to think it does but it does not... chargebacks and credits are two different things.

lastly... Raffi... why not pay out $65+ per join??? that model is not new... but those who tried it out in the past offered $60+ per join... but they too found out that... people don't like to send traffic to an unknown payout.. vs a guaranteed one...
:2 cents:

S.A.K..I have posted a number of questions for you. Please take the time and issue a rebuttal. I will more then happily eat humble pie if I have misinterpreted your sales tactics. (I am assuming that you are an "official" spokesperson for AdultPlayerClub...correct?).

why don't you go check the ND join page form... then come back when you konw what you are talking about ;)

I just used LA Fitness as one example. It happens in many other industries, not just adult was my point. I can name example after example.

Just looked into the rebill times. Here is a sample transaction on a 3 day trial I found:
2004-07-15 06:38 PM - time joined
2004-07-18 08:39 PM - time rebilled

Looks roughly to be 74 hours on this one I saw and 73 hours on another. So pretty consistent.