49thParallel

I saw the new AdultPlayersClub program splashed all over GFY..so, as I always do, I rushed on over to see if this just might be the "honest" program I am looking for. And don't get me wrong, I'm sure it is an "honest" program for webmasters...but if you are a consumer...watch out.

The same old tricks are all there.
A consumer signs up for 3 day trial membership. What could be better...3 days to try out the program, with no risk, right? Wrong! If you click on the Terms and Conditions link, go down 569 words (and we all know that IF the consumer even clicks on the T & C's, he's not going to read the first 569 words..he'll get bored, thinking it's the standard "you must be 18", images copyrighted ramble). Here's where you find the clause that the Trial Membership must be cancelled ONE DAY before end of trial to avoid rebill. Yep, the 3 day trial has magically changed to a 2 day trial.

Now, to make matters worse...a regular monthly membership is $29 a month..a rebilling membership is $39 a month.

But wait, there's more...

Look what we have here...the prechecked cross-sell. A free one day trial is listed. But, now I direct you back to the T & C's. No where does it tell you how to cancel this one day trial. Hopefully not one day before end of trial, or the consumer is really hooped.

And is one day 24 hours, or is it until end of day? Your guess is as good as mine..as this helpful bit of information doesn't seem to be available anywhere on the sign-up page.

So AdultPlayersClub, my hat comes off to you..the modern day rendition of the boiler room con artist. If you ever figure out how to sell an adult site without smoke and mirrors...give me a call. In fact, I'll buy you a round, in celebration of your entry into the world of "real" businessmen.

Dirty F

Well, thats a part of being able to pay 35 bucks per trial i guess.

brand0n

drama?

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Dirty F

Now youre in, yes.

BVF

Good God! Is your only purpose on GFY to bitch and complain and snitch about something...I've never seen a snitching muthafucka like you in my whole life..

All I have to do is a search on your name and 95% of your posts have something to do with snitching..

Start your own shit and then you can promote your own shit and then you can stop crying like a bitch all of the time.

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Giorgio_Xo

Same as any other PPS program.

My sales have been great so far.

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49thParallel

In response to the 2 posts above..YES, that is my only purpose. Thanks for asking.

And YES, that is the same as most PPS programs...Damn... I see where you are going with this. If the other programs do it as well, then this must be all right.
Wow, does that ever take a load off my mind! As long as the other programs also rip of the consumer, then everything is cool. Thanks for the revelation!

Reak

What he said

SomeCreep

What he said

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Juicy D. Links

Is this new to you honestly?

Come on man you cant be this naiive.

Strife

and you wonder why surfers chargeback....

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doober

Dont get me wrong but snitching would imply that he is tattling or telling a person or body that would get them in some sort of trouble.
The info he posted was available to every webmaster including surfers. Sure they may not take the time to read it but he did and now he is showing the rest what he discovered.
Every big program out there overpaying for joins is pulling the shit anyway, its nothing new.

Is the title a little skewed for him to make his point? Yes...

But is he Snitching or calling it out like it is?

webair

interesting...thanks for the info 49th

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Trax

most likely, yes
no drama
this become a normal billing tactic in the adult industry

BradM

Nothing new.
And what are you talking about wrong and right. You're in adult. If you want to be all morally upstanding go work at burger king

doober

and we can thank these great tactics for visa's new rules and stronghold on all site owners in todays market.
Hell if we keep it up, maybe they will evetually have to send a employee to hold our hands while we run our sites to make sure we arent fucking surfers the first chance we get

FiReC

shady

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Veterans Day

and everyone screams about chargebacks and we should police ourselves before we are forced into new rules. Nothing like burning the candles at both ends and the wax will eventually run out, but as usual webmasters see here and now not into the future. Just cause its been juicy selling for the last 7-8 years I hope you dont think it will be another cakewalk for the next 7-8 years.

Ya its typical but it hurts everyone, you dumbfucks are just too damn blind to see and comprehend.

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DeanCapture

*word*

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DaLord

Exactly but people couldn't care less.

Aparently it's okay to use shady shit unless someone is doing it against you.

justsexxx

I don't realy like those tactics as well.

I would not promote it. But most ppl want to see 35-40-45 per trial. Well this way they can afford it.

I prefer site like nastydollars, cleaner, and a HUGE memberarea. When you sell those memberships you will be pretty sure members will be happy and want to buy more porn one day

When they join a PPS program with all these prechecked, and terms about canceling etc etc, they will feel screwed, and might not buy porn again..

Just my

Andre

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pxxx

Shoplifter

I think that more experienced webmasters will realize these tactics do not rebill and that there may be the need for some dicey math to get it all to work.

I'm one of those guys who will take a great site with a $14.95 revshare membership over any PPS program.

I'm sure it's a great program, but I don't do any PPS any more.

diesel

Imagine yourself ordering a book from Amazon and when you get it you discover that you also signed up for a yearly subscritpion of some fashion magazine and it cost 4 times more then the fucking book ..
Will you buy again ?
Will you complain for chargeback ?

jayeff

Every time someone starts a non-specific thread about how it is time we stopped burning our own customers, cut the dubious billing practises and build sites with some decent content, it is hard to find a dissenting voice. Almost everyone is yeh, right, about time, etc., etc., etc.

But relate the same comments to a specific sponsor and suddenly it's time to dump on the messenger. I suppose it beats having to question one's own actions too much...

Veterans Day

ofcourse you would be pissed but these dumbass webmasters only see the 35 bucks. ask yourself how good of a job and life do you have versus if online porn wasnt present. IDIOTS

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Tom_PMs

Dude, this is a pretty sad attitude.

Seriously.

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Quickdraw

Pipecrew

Yeah wait till they are on the Visa Breakout list.. APC isnt anything special, people will refund and chargeback ridiculous amounts, I guarantee it.

Veterans Day

concur wholeheartedly, I see nothing special whatsoever

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diesel

More you push those programs heavy the regulations and more problems we will get. Its so fucking clear.

All this "business" built on new customers caz there are still many of them everyday .. But why dont you give the chance to consumer maybe he likes the product and the service with the original price and will buy in other shop again ?... People buy less caz they get shitty product for tripled price ...
And after all from a simple calculation your traffic is scammed , you get a small % from it and you say wow what a great ratio when its really not that great at all!

Adult entertainment doesnt mean scam!
Its our business!

wyldblyss

Those terms of service sound typical of most sponsors. All consumers should read what their obligations are for anything they buy...I know I do.

buddyjuf

thanx alot for the informative post

Veterans Day

please ya they are gonna read 21,000 characters? Ya fucking right

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hyper

you have 2 options

1. promote them

2. don't promote them

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Veterans Day

ya but I dont have the option of the assfuckin we ALL get from visa with this bullshit they pull

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Sama

Best Point of the Entire Thread!!!

Why wouldn't anyone run their adult business like ANY other business? The Scammers and Fly by Nighters in mainstream....are exactly that....Fly by Nighters!

Do you want to be in the adult biz long term? If so, run it like you would ANY other biz....for the long term!!!

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xxxdesign-net

actually.. oxcash and bangbros use the same tactic...

They nearly all do it btw...

Strife

Yeah no doubt

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diesel

[QUOTE]Originally posted by xxxdesign-net
actually.. oxcash and bangbros use the same tactic...

They nearly all do it btw... [/QUOTE
No they dont ..
They sell 2 sites for 35 usd while in this case you pay almost 80 usd and in case you dont you loose yourself in aggresive dialer shit .. and you cannot compare those websites caz oxcash is really more established .. Its not just APC offcourse ..

SureFire

You are probably right but we don't know their plan.

Yesterday I cancelled a one-week trial that I let it lapse into two weeks. Got an email from the webmaster that 9.95 would be refunded and enjoy the site until the end of the month, and please signup again since they would not re-bill and I would not have access next month. (I only stated that I forgot to cancel my one week subscription and didn?t want to be charged for another week.)

Well if I was a surfer, I would probably pull out the cc at the end of the month since the member?s area wasn?t bad. I guess it all depends on customer service.

Drake

I have to agree with this post. I didn't know those things were a part of the program. It is bad for the industry and it's the reason why Visa has clamped down and why American Express stopped processing adult altogether. It's the reason why Visa may continue to clamp down if things like this continue.

For those that are comparing this to working in adult are way off base. There is nothing immoral about sex and selling sex between consenting adults. Also those that think people should always read the fine print. Either you're joking or you're the 1% of the population that spends hours reading fine print on all the products you buy everyday - not realistic and I've never met anybody like you in real life.

APC content and sites are nice in my view. Original ideas and interesting concepts. I would rather see them payout less instead of paying more and having to cross sale members on things they don't know they're signing up for. But I know why they did it...people want to get paid $40 per signup regardless of the longterm consequences.

Jayeff already pointed out the hyprocrisy. Same people defening these tactics in this thread will be the same people saying these are the tactics ruining the industry in another thread.

This has nothing to do with the quality of the APC sites. Those are excellent, it's the marketing of those sites that we're not agreeing with. Sometimes good well intentioned people do things they shouldn't. Megapornbucks had tons of high profle defenders in the thread that revealed they scammed people. Were they good people like those defending said they were? Who knows. but nobody had a problem with their sites per se, just the way it was marketed to surfers.

doober

with a hardon nonetheless

emthree

Well see right:

When people accept a trend or an idea - it usually grows on and on untill accepted by the majority. Some of the biggest paysites use the same methods of milking signups.

So really, aint shit you or me can dp :\

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robfantasy

UMM people this is not specific to APC, it is Paycom's t&c. I dont think APC has control over this..

its like this for all sites that process thru paycom.

I just read my T&C for my site that processes thru paycom and it says the same thing..

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Brad Mitchell

My post in this thread isn't personal... not directed at the program in question or any of the people posting in this thread.

It never hurts to state the obvious: just because someone is doing something, doesn't mean that it is:

1) Legal - to the letter of the law. Think to yourself, how would the Federal Trade Commission view the consumer experience?
2) Moral - does the business practice meet your personal standards, would you feel comfortable as the consumer and similarly would you feel comfortable with, say, a mom or dad as a customer of theirs? You are a wiser consumer than most.
3) Viable - let's assume it works very well today... but what is the longevity of the business model?

Think about each of those and decide where you stand. I am certain that the crowd here would be evenly divided for and against promoting a something that functions in the manner which was described earlier in the thread.

For the most part, affiliates whose business models are built on PPS need not concern themselves with the long term viability of any one merchant. If they're slick, they use SSI and could change out links quickly... however, I don't know that the ramifications are as small for those who are "gallery dependant". Eventually, if a merchant goes out of business it stands to reason that the affiliate takes only a small loss because he has been paid already for most sales that have been made. In short? If you patronize a program that doesn't appear to have long term viability then appreciate your payouts as "getting it while the gettin' is good".

Aggressive affiliate and consumer sales tactics increase risk dramatically. A high PPS is an aggressive sales tactic, same with over-rides on top of that, etc. Pre-checked cross sells with short cancellation windows is obviously aggressive consumer marketing. Longevity wise, these are both tough on the merchant for a few reasons:

1) High PPS payouts attract organized crime in the form of affiliate fraud. It doesn't matter if you know how to steal consumer information, there are groups out there doing it and programs that are attractive because of fast and big payouts attract them like bees to honey. I'm not saying it's impossible to surmount the fraud attempts, simply that it IS difficult and ultimately very costly financially and to one's chargeback ratios. Every big program fights affiliate fraud, perhaps in even greater numbers than consumer fraud... the bastards that simply don't want to pay and chargeback.

2) Beyond fraud concerns merchants have graduated to the notion of not wanting traffic from everybody. When you're dealing in large numbers, you find that conversions, refunds, recurring billing and cancellations can and do vary from one affiliate to the next. This does mean the way the numbers fall means that many large merchants are cancelling small, unproductive or potentially risky affiliates. Essentially, all traffic is not created equal.

3) The lifeblood of every merchant is their ability to accept credit cards online. These rules are finite. It's all about the chargeback and refunds ratio... the more you push the envelope with the consumer, the more you flirt with the limits of what is acceptable.

Finally.. where do I stand, what do I think.. I'm quite sure nobody cares, but this subject interests me so I am happy to share my opinion.

I do not know the reasoning for the "must cancel 24 hours before" condition that was spoke of. The first thing that comes to my mind is that is in the terms and conditions to limit liability in case of technical malfunction. I believe the MOST important thing in this scenario is that if a consumer cancels within hours of the recur time and date that the rebill doesn't happen. I don't believe that just because it stipulates the cancellation needs to be 24 hours in advance that this is what actually needs to happen. Perhaps someone with real knowledge of the process can teach us all about it.

On a more personal level, there are two questions I asked myself:

1) As an affiliate, would I promote it. The sites are beautiful and from what I hear the content is good, two vitally important factors in my book. The sticking point for me on promotion for me might be the pre-checked cross-sell, perhaps because it is a 1 day trial which seems a bit rushed. I don't believe there is anything technically wrong with the process, options and pricing. For me, the true test is do I think if my dad signed up for it would he end up confused and rebilling on that cross sell and I think the answer is yes. I prefer the recurring business model, personally, so when I look for what to promote I look for sites with sticky content where the retention has the best potential. My experience to date is that retention on 'flavor of the month' reality sites isn't necessarily that great. The bonus, these days, is that everyone is throwing as much content as possible at the consumers inside their members area.

2) As a processor, which I am now with 123Bill, would I bill for it. Absolutely! Presuming that the members areas content is strong and matches those tours, I'd be happy to be one of their billing alternatives. The content is legal, plentiful and it's obvious that the marketing tools and tours are excellent - exactly the kind of clients I look for. We don't allow for cross sells so as a stand-alone, recurring membership it would be a site we'd be proud to do transactions for. For them to be viable on our financial model, they would need a differential payout for our alternative because it would be financially difficult to give $35 PPS with our fee structure. $15 or $20, sure, but to pay affiliates more than that one would be risky if retention wasn't excellent.

...that's it! Just wanted to jump in and give my

I think the program site and pay sites all look teriffic. I can only imagine that the galleries, etc as just as nice. If you're into PPS and don't have any other objections then I can only guess this type of program is right up your alley. Good luck everyone!

Cheers,

Brad

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Pornwolf

I have heard the Hawgs are some of the richest guys in the business.

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Pipecrew

They have 1 cross sell.. They dont scam people on trials, you pay for 3 days, you get 3 days, you also get more exclusive and quality content then any porn site online.

Joesho

Those sites do kick ass though, I gotta say...

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bigdog

I don't blam them, i would do the same. You got to make as much as possible now.What the hawgs are doing is not that bad compared to what other guys used to do when they had their own merchant accounts.