neverlearn

Is Iraq the next Vietnam

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DarkJedi

It already is.

pimplink

darn

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=^..^=

not sure.. what kind of drugs the soldiers got out there?

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Paul Markham

No Kerry will pull the troops out.

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project_naughty

I f you mean, "are we going to win a stunning military victory but lose the political war due to our own stupidity?" then the answer is "possibly".


Otherwise, no it's not going to be another Vietnam.

EviLGuY

Not even close really..

jimmyf

NO

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goBigtime

Bullshit.

(And I hate bush.)

JFK

Just hope he wins

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warlock667

Idiot... what do you actually know about the war in Vietnam? What do you know about the war in Iraq? I'll bet a shiny silver dollar you know jack about either.

Pleasurepays

He just found out that Ho Chi Min took control of Fallujah and is pushing south with his Communist Comrades headed for Bagdad.

genomega

This crowd just might believe you.

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neverlearn

Whats your damage man?
How could I know nothing of these? I lived through them both, but no , I am no soldier so No I dont know as much a a Soldier would.
But I suppose you are what? Some crazy guy who gets his panties in a bunch whenever anyone posts a question about war?

Hey pal do me favor and

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Napolean

from a deleted scene on family guy..

peter comes into a veterans hospital delivering ice cream

peter -- "hey guys look what i brought.. ice cream!

so vietnam huh?... wow, how did you guys screw that up?

what.. were they really good at karate or somethin?"

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Pleasurepays

why don't you elaborate on the "similarities" brainiac.

rambler

neverlearn

Shit , I shouldnt respond to you "pleasurepays" seems anything that comes outta your mouth is regurgitated shit anyways...

Heres the similarity for ya...good people die for a leader.
People get killed
People get shot
Everyone in America asking why we were there.

Kids getting killed
Innocent people dying
America eventually pulls out leaving a bigger mess

the list goes on...

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Loryn

I love how the choices are, A. we agree with you (your obvious choice) or B. we like our kids dieing.
Nice spin and bait!!!


The answer to your question is, no it's not!!! I am sure you are hoping it is, but it's not!!!

Oh, neverlearn, not everyone is asking why we are in Iraq, just the people in your world!!!! Think outside of yourself you will be amazed on what other ideas and facts are out there!!!

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MikeHawk

You are wrong..
Do you really think that is going to happen?
Please....

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rambler

Just why are we in Iraq; is it to free the arabs from themselves? Killing our own innocent children(our soldiers) to save the Iraqies from Saddam or killing a bunch of innocent Iraqies(who had nothing to do with 9/11)?

WE ALL KNOW iT"S OIL.
(otherwise we would have been in Cuba and many, many other places to liberate them; or prevent them from developing WMD(China, N Korea etc.)

But go ahead and try and tell me why we are risking our own children; Is it for the benefit of Iraqies?

neverlearn

I guess no one is asking why your over there when your box offices at Farenheit 911 flick are being stampeded... wtf are you saying?

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69pornlinks

wasn't born during nam' but this 'war' will bring back the draft....you see they're calling up 'retired' soldiers to fill the ranks, more soliders are dying then they actually telling

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fuelcell

This is not another Vietnam. It's not even close. It's messy, yes. The situation is much closer to the relationship between Palestenians and Israelis. We can expect the bombings and resistance to both the American occupation and the American-installed government to continue. Whether it stops after the elections remains to be seen. Just depends on how well "sovereignty" is sold to the Iraqis - whether they buy the myth or not.

The powers-that-be will repackage the myth as many times as needed to get it sold to both the Iraqis and world at large. Until everyone seems happy and nothing has really changed.

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devilspost

Come you masters of war
You that build all the guns
You that build the death planes
You that build the big bombs
You that hide behind walls
You that hide behind desks

http://www.bobdylan.com/songs/masters.html

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Doctor Dre

I dont think so ... something new

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jayeff

If you mean will we be pouring billions of dollars, killing and being killed, for ultimately no good purpose then yes. Just like Afghanistan, where according to the UK Independent this week "The infrastructure is non-existent, opium production is rocketing, warlords control large swathes of the country, and the Taliban are back. Afghanistan is unravelling piece by piece."

But the nature of the conflict nor its scale will ever be like Vietnam.

Manga1

YOU DON'T KNOW MAN!!!!! YOU WEREN'T THERE!!!!!!

Webby

The similarities are not "exact", but the overall scenario is.

(a) Invaded a country for some "excuse" (that may be different today from yesterday). It is now clear the CIA lit the fuse that justified the Vietnam invasion "excuse" in the first place.

(b) With nada clue about anything, hoping to "impose" beliefs on people.

(c) A reluctance to get the fuck out of the place. Last year Bremner had full details of a plan from the Iraqi Census Board where the explained they had no problem collecting data and holding elections. Bremner hid this from the then, Iraqi Governing Council - it was not time, least at that stage, to fuck off. The tone has changed and a date "picked out of a hat" was made to assign "sovereignty" - but that also was a "Bush version of sovereignty which does not match anything in a dictionary.

(d) When the time comes to "actually" leave - it will be the usual Vietnam departure - forced out, - by public opinion, body bags and the fact that there is simply no point in staying.

History has a habit of repeating and some just can't learn from previous events or have this overwhelming ulterior motive to "make" history repeat - they just can't help it...

Pleasurepays

The USA invaded Vietnam?

Really, I thought a Communist North Vietnam was trying to impose their beliefs on people.

does it annoy you that much that violence is dying down and Iraq now has it's own government?

BradM

John... don't even bother replying. These guys are so absolutely set in their ways nothing you argue will convince them otherwise.

Replying just fuels their fire.

Pleasurepays

Good job Einstein.. you forgot

"people breath air in Vietnam and Iraq"

and

"you can see the moon from both Vietnam and Iraq"

it's hardly fair to compare every war to one war by using generalities such as "people get killed"

if you hate Bush, hate the war in Iraq or hate the USA... just say so. Everyone can respect that. But don't be an idiot by making remarks that make no sense while you hope to appeal to a crowd that agrees with your "anti... whatever" stance. You sound about as rational as an environmentalist. Do you dress up as fur seals on weekends and protest at the local mall?

Pleasurepays

Dude, i could care less what everyones opinions are. I respect them. I understand anyones opposition to the USA or to the war. What does that have to do with the fact that Vietnam and Iraq are not comparable in any way? (other than "people get killed")

BradM

I don't know anything about vietnam so I cant say anything about it.

Pleasurepays

but like every other reactionary in the world... you feel compelled to comment on the opinions and views of others, though you eventually admit to having no idea what you are talking about.

*yawn*

Cloner

No, I don't think the US would stand for that.

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BradM

John is my friend of a few years and I can tell he is getting aggrivated so I merely commented to get him to slow up.

Did I make a comment on this situation at ALL fuckstick?

You're here to argue and that is overly evident. Go get drunk it is independance day.

Radik

No. I think it's time to pack up and watch it explode on cnn.

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TweetyBird

I really hope it won't be.

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ADL Colin

Trying to draw an analogy between Vietnam and Iraq and is about as misguided as the analogy Bush made between Iraq and World War II.

Each side feels justified in its attempt and believe they are scoring points for their political view. Vietnam as a template for Iraq? Sure, they are both called "wars" and there are insurgents. There are many more differences than similarities though.

One started as a slow build up of troops and increased the number of combat troops in response to a growing insurgency which only increased the casualty rate. The other started with a powerful strike into the capital of a country occupying it within 21 days, overthrowing the government as was its goal and captured the head of that government bringing him to trial in just 15 months.

Vietnam was fought against a country being supplied by two regional superpowers. Fear of the war escalating and involving those two powers and a possible nuclear war handicapped the performce of the US military. There is no such fear in Iraq. The capital is occupied, the Baathists are out of power and the Iraqi security forces are being reformed.

Growing unrest during Vietnam led millions of people to take the street protesting the action and keeping pressure on the administration. In this war the protestors marched before the war and haven't been seen much since.

Sadr's militia and the like are NOT the equivalent of the VC - neither in terms of organization nor in ability. Nor is Sadr a Ho Chi Minh.

Most importantly there was never an exit plan for Vietnam. There is a planned and published timeline for Iraq to reach full sovereignty that is on schedule.

What should be most obvious is the scale of the two conflicts. Less than 1000 dead is not the equivalent of nearly 60,000 dead. There is little evidence that the current conflict will escalate. In fact, the intended political outcome continues to move in the planned for direction.

There have been many wars with insurgents. Why is Vietnam a better analogy than, say, the Phillipines during the Spanish American War? What story is one hoping to tell by the Vietnamization of Iraq?

Oh, yeah .. and "It's NOT in the jungle, baby".

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Webby

PleasurePays:

Mmm.. I can't really be bothered wasting time on this.. but

(a) Are you saying the US did not invade? The "spark" the was used for the "invasion" was a CIA "tool" which involved them loading up a boat with "marked arms" to "proove" they were "evil" then bringing this boat into port with the world's press corp waiting. This is known to be a setup and has been acknowledged by the CIA officers involved.

(b) "I thought a Communist North Vietnam was trying to impose their beliefs on people."

So what someone else does, is the "excuse" why you should do the same??? Was this the "war against Communism" then? :-)

(c) "does it annoy you that much that violence is dying down and Iraq now has it's own government?"

First.. what gives you the idea "violence is dying down" - based on a few days of "sovereignty"?? Sure hope it does die down, but am not holding my breath. There is a denial of the basic facts of life and the "cause" of the violence - "terrorists" may be one source - there are more....

On the contrary.. no, - if Iraq had it's own government, that is a good thing. The problem is it does not since the US "intervened" at the 11th hour and appointed it's own "contacts" to the irritation of many who had been negotiating this. What is there is another reincarnation of the "Iraqi Governing Council". The use of the word "sovereignty" in Iraq is a sham... another misuse of words and the reason other nations/Nato are not interested in embedding themselves in this scenario with aid and support in rebuilding.

The only time Iraq will have it's own government is the day elections are held there and *all* US forces removed along with "advisors" and all US "agencies - including the US Ambassador and his staff in the "biggest US Emabassy in the world". (Mmmm.. that's the next target for a bombing?)

Webby

Colin...

Good and valid post!

TurboTrucker

55,000 Americans and 5 Million Vietnamese dead. How's it even comparable?

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VegasSEGirl

No, I don't think so.

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Pleasurepays

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Webby
[B]PleasurePays:



Mmm.. I can't really be bothered wasting time on this.. but

(a) Are you saying the US did not invade?

there was no "invasion". the US was helping South Vietnamese for many years and only gradually sent US toops and hardware after about 15 years. No stretch of logic can lead to the conslusion that there was an invasion of any kind.

[QUOTE](b) "I thought a Communist North Vietnam was trying to impose their beliefs on people."

So what someone else does, is the "excuse" why you should do the same??? Was this the "war against Communism" then? :-)[Q/QUOTE]

The war against Communism has nothing to do with the fact that the South wanted nothing to do with Commusim. They recieved support. They were not "invaded", nor did they have any political ideology forced on them as the North in fact did.

Violence IS dying down. It has been from the end of the conflict. That's a fact. The situation went from complete chaos and insanity, looting, wide spread revenge killings and terrorist bombings to the occasional terrorist act. Not much different from Berlin at the end of WWll where there was just as much resistence to allied occupation and by Nazi party members/supporters.

Ohhhh.... you mean to say that Iraq will never be a sovereign nation or have it's own government much in the same exact way that Germany does not have its own Government? South Korea? Japan? or anywhere else that a US base remained after WWll. Won't they be very pissed to know after 50 years that they are just slaves of an occupation?

uh.

ok.

Pleasurepays

It's unfortuneate that your disdain and fear of the US has caused such paranoia that you would go so far as to suggest that having a US Embassy undermines the authority or legitimacy of government of that country.

Funny that Iran today, submitted a criminal complaint against Saddam to the same court in Iraq that will try Saddam and henchmen giving that court/process/government both credibility and acknowledging it's legitimacy. I guess even the most extreme Islamic Fundamentalist Theocratic governments in the region have not managed to adopt a veiw as negative and pessimistic as your own.