When it comes to designers: Is it really a "buyer's market?"

[eroswebmaster]

I have heard this on the board a number of times.

Is this the truth? Or is it just a perceived truth?

It depends, what do you want? Quality, quantity, quick turnaround, low price.

Sure there is an influx of designers on GFY from gallery makers, to full fledge paysite designs.

Some of them even offer incredibly low prices.

However what are you getting into?

Will you be happy with the work?

Do you have any history with this person, any references, do they have any kind of reputation?

Sure veryone deserves a chance don't get me wrong...but to just outright say it's a buyer's market is IMO just not true.

As for myself I am turning down clients all the time, I just don't have enough time in the day to do every order that comes across my ICQ and at this point I could be booked through May if I choosed to book that far in advance.

I know a few others on here that are experiencing the same thing.

I also do not see the benefits to you the client to be in a "buyers market," other than saving $5-$10 or even $15.00 on a gallery template or any design.

You have to consider what effects a price war can have on that designer you love so much.

If you want to force him to compete with some eastern european designer who can live on 1/3 of what he makes a day, then pretty soon that's all you'll have left is a bunch of outsourced $15 - $20 dollar designs that may or may not make you money.

Don't get me wrong, I appreciate all my clients and do my best to try to satisfy them but I am far from perfect...LOL

I am just a squirrel like everyone else here trying to get a nut.

But a buyer's market? Not IMO.

[Ironhorse]

Much of value is perceived, like paying gazillions for a 3 stroke painting because of the name of the artist (usually after they die), some of this is applied to designers.

I think by 'buyer's market' it's inferred there isn't as much capital to go around so customers are much choosier who and why they pick a designer although like many folks stated in your other thread, often times this is based on $, while designers are caught in bid-wars with each other, the buyers have wider selection and pay much less than they would've say 3 years ago.

[eroswebmaster]

Originally posted by Ironhorse
Much of value is perceived, like paying gazillions for a 3 stroke painting because of the name of the artist (usually after they die), some of this is applied to designers.

I think by 'buyer's market' it's inferred there isn't as much capital to go around so customers are much choosier who and why they pick a designer although like many folks stated in your other thread, often times this is based on $, while designers are caught in bid-wars with each other, the buyers have wider selection and pay much less than they would've say 3 years ago.

I know exactly what's inferred but my point is have you taken a closer look at your other choices.

I will apply this to my field which is at this point and time all galleries, there are a number of really talented people on this board who can design their asses off...and then there are some value designers who it's clear their only advantage is money....so still the pool of available good gallery designers is smaller than what is perceived...so while the client still has choices if they want to make money then they need to take a closer look at those choices and decide what's more improtant..the 1 time cost of the product or it's return on that 1 time investment.

[Roald]

Originally posted by eroswebmaster

...so while the client still has choices if they want to make money then they need to take a closer look at those choices and decide what's more improtant..the 1 time cost of the product or it's return on that 1 time investment.

So whats your opninion on this: You can buy a $2500 (start) paysite design from Mike W (just an example) wich will probably look realy good, or you go to someone who can do the deal for $500.

I am sure everybody knows Mike W and his work but the problem is how do you know on forehand his site is going to convert better. After all you just have to try it. Or you should go with someone who guarantees you a conversion (like Bruno if I am correct).

If one is realy serious about getting a design done they should look at portfolios some closer and ask others opinion/conversions instead of going with the cheapest

[jayeff]

Originally posted by eroswebmaster
so while the client still has choices if they want to make money then they need to take a closer look at those choices and decide what's more improtant..the 1 time cost of the product or it's return on that 1 time investment.

I don't see how anyone could find fault with your basic message, but putting that idea into practise is something else again. We - meaning those who haven't already worked with a range of designers - don't really have a clue who produces designs that sell. Price isn't a good indicator. Reputation, in an industry plagued with cult-of-personality judgements, doesn't mean much either.

Come to that, we don't even agree about the importance of design or about which design style(s) is/are most effective. And although it is often argued that a strong sales pitch is more important than a pretty design, we are armpit deep in designers and rarely mention copy writers. How much sense does it make that many designers expect customers to provide their own text, but unless the sales pitch theory is wrong, that is likely to have a negative impact on the end product and (however unfairly) reflect badly on them.

If you have good ideas, just not the time or the skills to execute them yourself, you are well served with plenty of Photoshop people around. But if - as most of us should probably admit - we need to be led by the hand from concept to completion, that's a whole other story. You could argue that it is only a designer's job to work to spec, but in that case, most of us shouldn't be going direct to designers in the first place.

[eroswebmaster]

Originally posted by QuaShe


So whats your opninion on this: You can buy a $2500 (start) paysite design from Mike W (just an example) wich will probably look realy good, or you go to someone who can do the deal for $500.

I am sure everybody knows Mike W and his work but the problem is how do you know on forehand his site is going to convert better. After all you just have to try it. Or you should go with someone who guarantees you a conversion (like Bruno if I am correct).

If one is realy serious about getting a design done they should look at portfolios some closer and ask others opinion/conversions instead of going with the cheapest

To answer your first question I would go with references from people I know and trust and who have worked with designers and see what they have to say.

A paysite design should be well thought out and researched before choosing IMO. You should never go with who just happens to be cheapest or available. I would rather put off opening for a month or two to work with a specific designer than just rush it and get it done asap.

A gallery on the other hand is a bit different and so much cheaper.

I would take a look at the portfolio and throw a gallery designer maybe a job or two and then see how it goes from there. If they do real well then I would work with them on larger orders if I felt it was necessary.

[SoundMan]

Well if a Designer makes a page-tour-tgp -banner.. that converts real well he will win that "Buyer" then he has that market.

that is why top designers make booooka $$$$

earning that Rep...

[eroswebmaster]

Originally posted by jayeff


I don't see how anyone could find fault with your basic message, but putting that idea into practise is something else again. We - meaning those who haven't already worked with a range of designers - don't really have a clue who produces designs that sell. Price isn't a good indicator. Reputation, in an industry plagued with cult-of-personality judgements, doesn't mean much either.

Come to that, we don't even agree about the importance of design or about which design style(s) is/are most effective. And although it is often argued that a strong sales pitch is more important than a pretty design, we are armpit deep in designers and rarely mention copy writers. How much sense does it make that many designers expect customers to provide their own text, but unless the sales pitch theory is wrong, that is likely to have a negative impact on the end product and (however unfairly) reflect badly on them.

If you have good ideas, just not the time or the skills to execute them yourself, you are well served with plenty of Photoshop people around. But if - as most of us should probably admit - we need to be led by the hand from concept to completion, that's a whole other story. You could argue that it is only a designer's job to work to spec, but in that case, most of us shouldn't be going direct to designers in the first place.

I agree with pretty much all of you said...but there are still ways of getting around the whole cult of personality aspect and that is by going with references from people you know and trust.

I speak from the perspective of a gallery maker so it's much different spending $25-$40 for a template vs $500-$2K for a tour design.

As far as the whole gallery concept goes, I usually put text into the gallery for the clients..some of them keep it some don't...some of the change it a bit ..they've had successes using both approaches.

[eroswebmaster]

Originally posted by SoundMan
Well if a Designer makes a page-tour-tgp -banner.. that converts real well he will win that "Buyer" then he has that market.

that is why top designers make booooka $$$$

earning that Rep...

right.

[eroswebmaster]

I guess to sum up my point price and time should not be the only factors in your decision making...neither should just "rep" you should look at the whole package.

[Ironhorse]

Originally posted by jayeff


I don't see how anyone could find fault with your basic message, but putting that idea into practise is something else again. We - meaning those who haven't already worked with a range of designers - don't really have a clue who produces designs that sell. Price isn't a good indicator. Reputation, in an industry plagued with cult-of-personality judgements, doesn't mean much either.

Come to that, we don't even agree about the importance of design or about which design style(s) is/are most effective. And although it is often argued that a strong sales pitch is more important than a pretty design, we are armpit deep in designers and rarely mention copy writers. How much sense does it make that many designers expect customers to provide their own text, but unless the sales pitch theory is wrong, that is likely to have a negative impact on the end product and (however unfairly) reflect badly on them.

If you have good ideas, just not the time or the skills to execute them yourself, you are well served with plenty of Photoshop people around. But if - as most of us should probably admit - we need to be led by the hand from concept to completion, that's a whole other story. You could argue that it is only a designer's job to work to spec, but in that case, most of us shouldn't be going direct to designers in the first place.

This is a great post about the 'grey zone' of the design industry. The most successful projects come from customers who have already done the 'salespitch' work and prepared the copy themselves or had another marketing professional do it. Often times though it's expected that the designer also acts like the copywriter and the marketing brain behind. Interestingly enough this is usually included in the overall price for most designers and experience in the industry or a knack for marketing makes the difference. However I'm sure it's tough for the average customer to know whether or not the designer also came up with sales text for sites in their portfolio, as I'm sure this varies.