I think the Japanese people are very pleased to have been occupied by the US as it was through our beneficence that they are in competition for being the second richest country in the world...and in their case the occupation only lasted about five years.

Yes, we are no different than the animals that roam the earth... they fight and kill over food, territory, women and control of the pack....

but we are suppose to be superior to animals, we have thought reason and the power to control ourselves in a civilized society.

The human animal is not "civilized" as it has only been out of the caves for about 30,000 years and that is nada on the timeline of evolution...check back in say 3 million years or so...maybe if the human animal is still in existence...it may be somewhat civilized.

I don't think that will ever happen...

not sure, but I don't think animals have one trait we have... greed. It's greed that corrupts.

How is it a dumb thing not to get involved? Finish the job? Sure, yeah :) There are 5 more countries to invade and reasons need to be found to do so.

How about the US leaves the UN (an organisation that the US helped create) and create there own form of UN and establish there own laws. Oh, the problem is that some US allies won't follow those laws and then what will happen? Double standards again :)

Let me get this straight. Saddam does not have the right to kill those he perceives as his enemies, but the US does and should kill those perceived as enemies?

Sorry I prob did not clearify my message. I meant to say that the Iraqis are better off without Saddam and by overthrowing him, the U.S. did them a big favor. Maybe the people will not realize this, but when the time comes, they will thank the U.S.

Killing a few U.S. soldiers...LOL....over 200,000 Soviet soldiers died in one night when they seized Berlin, so a few soldiers a day is nothing, it's worth the price. Again, you people do not look at the bigger picture.

Tell that to the parents of these dead soldiers, or their children... I am sure they will agree with you 100%

There are more countries that should be taken down...and unless they see the light...they will eventually be taken down.

I have little respect for the UN other than as a debating club but debate has its place so I reluctantly think the US should remain a member.

Right and wrong are relative...and mostly exists in idealism...but has little to do with reality. Saddam...as the leader of a nation...realistically speaking could kill whomever he perceives to be his enemy...and the cold hard reality is...he did this...because he had the power to do so...and it is the way of the human animal. Leaders of countries...through out history...have almost always done what they have the power to do...so there is nothing new about that. Having the power is the keyword...as the human animal still practices evolution's "survival of the fittest".

No the US didn't do them a big favor, it was up to the Iraqis to unite, take there responsibilities and get rid of him. The US did them a disservice which will result in some hostilities here and there for a couple of decades and then they'll eventually have to face there problems but a people who's used to have others save them from there responsibilities won't be prepared for shit and the easy way for them will be to blame the US.

When the time comes? Oh yeah sure.

What bigger picture? There's no bigger picture, except control of oil.

Most of them would agree...that their lives were sacrificed for the greater cause.

I know and I feel sorry for them, but hey, they chose to join the military and they knew that they might be killed in the line of duty. At least the military service is not mandatory here. But you have to sacrifice something to get another thing.

You think? Ok, maybe some would... after all... there are some here that think bush is a good president...

but I an sure if you ask any parent if their childs life was worth taking over a pointless war, I am sure she would not agree. I know I wouldn't....

The cold hard fact is in a world of reality and not idealism...control of oil is an extraordinarily important necessity and will even become more so as the irreplaceable fossil fuels dwindle away...but yet it is only a part of the bigger picture.

Up to Iraqis to get rid of him???.....LOL...Get rid of the person who controls the army and who will kill anyone who says anything against him? Its not hollywood....LOL...Its not easy to unite people with different ethnicities and backgrounds and Iraq is a multi-cultural place.

You just answered your own question :winkwink:

When you control the world's second largest oil reserves, you basically own the world hehe

And just how exactly are you different than Hitler? What light are you talking about?

Ah I don't know how old you are but I think you lived a confortable life for a very long time and you're loosing sight and have less and less appreciation for American values.

It seems to me like you're in agreement with Saddam and his methods.

Only those that have a personal view of the war being pointless...but the majority of Americans do not believe that the war is pointless.

Hmmm, you're telling me that if all the money that was poured for the war on Iraq was used to find alternatives to oil that they still wouldn't have found a decent alternative?

You are correct.. they did sign up, but the point I was trying to make is that these parents of these dead soldiers would not agree that the loss of their child over a pointless war was worth it.

Ok, if there was a good reason.. other than greedy bastards wanting control of some oil fields.. then maybe.. just maybe if it was a fight for freedom... ours, not some other countries.. let their milirary take care of that....

Sorry, I do not see where saddam was a threat to us personally. Until that person did something to us himself.. it is all heresay. If the deaths of these soldiers was because they were fighting to get binladden.. the one responsible for the actual damage and killing of innocent americans.. then I would be supporting this 1000%... hell, I would go fight too... Ther is a cause for it.... Sorry, I still don't see a rational heason for invading iraq...

you can say he was a tyrant, he killed his own people or what ever... hey... not my problem. Let their people fight it our amongst them selves... Every country has civil uprisings... even the US had a civil war.. None of our business. :2 cents:

Only because they are sheep that believe everything their government tells them.. people that do not think for themselves.

I am 45 years old...spent 12 years serving with the 82nd Airborne Division...was involved in operations "Urgent Fury"..."Just Cause"..."Desert Shield"..."Desert Storm" with my career being ended in Desert Strom...and now receive a 100% disability and live in mind numbing pain 24/7. Comfortable life...I think not...thank you very much.

Strange...I do not recall telling you that.

Nobody said that taking responsibility is easy, it's very hard but there are some things you just need to do. And it's not as if they never did anything like that before.

Just find alternatives to oil instead.

An utterly stupid statement...without validity.

I know, I'm just suggesting that the money would've been better spent that way :)

Ok, now I understand you a little better. Damn.. that is some military career... what brings you to GFY and the adult biz?

Me, I am 38, never been in the military, never cared about politics... I do appreciate the militry, my grandfather was in WWII has a purple heart and some other medals...

Some wars need to be fought... I do agree with that... I just don't agree with the resoning for this one. Sorry. Bush lied about everything... how can you trust someone that lies like that? Hell, even clinton when he lied to the american public on national television... and in court.. never trusted him after.

Yes, they all lie... but unless they are caught, you will never know. These two were caught and I cannot trust ANYONE who lies to me...

I always say... believe nothing you hear and only half of what you see.

Idealistically speaking you are probably right...but the cold hard reality is...as long as oil is more economically viable than an alternative fuel...it will remain at the top of the list.

Look...as I have said...idealism has its place...but has little to do with reality.

Really? How so? I am from a small town in western PA... when I moved to california, I would get calls from back home asking me about stuff they heard on the news.. half of it was nonsense as I knew better, I lived there.

People from small towns usually have small town mentality... and believe everything the media tells them. I know.. I am from a small town and they all think the same.... backwards.

2:30 here, I need to get up early, I still have a ton of work to do so if I do not respond right away..... that is the reason....

If this thread dies... it was nice chatting with all of you this evening...

hmmm, I'm no psychologist I guess :) I used to think like you do though and even worst.

President Bush is not the first President to have "lied" (if in fact he did lie...the Senate Select Intelligence Committee has been investigating to see if the Administration lied/exaggerated the intel that was supplied to them by our 14 intel agencies) and is not the first to have "lied" about war. At least two others "lied" about war and...in my opinion...in a worse way than President Bush may have "lied".

Idealism drives reality. The constitution was created by idealistic individuals.

And they bought the luxury of developing the constitution...after the reality of having fought a hard war. Iraq is now going to have the luxury of developing an "idealistic" constitution after the reality of war.

And yet when Bush and co. were yapping on and on and on about WMD's that was all fine wasn't it. Good to see you're not forgetting to take your hypocrisy pill each morning.

written 70-odd years ago and nothing to do with iraq, but an interesting read anyway

<a href="http://lexrex.com/enlightened/articles/warisaracket.htm
">war is a racket</a>

By that logic, I'm fit as fuck, while the American boys dying in Iraq are obviously evolutionary inferior. Deriving morality from nature is stupid.

As I posted on this board quite some time before the invasion took place...it was my opinion that WMD's was not the primary reason for invading Iraq and presented what I thought the real reasons were...so there is nothing hypocritical about my statement...try again.

god-damned 5 minute edit limit...

http://lexrex.com/enlightened/articles/warisaracket.htm

Your first statement is obviously incorrect and I agree to the second statement. Morality is a subjective term and only has meaning to an individual on a subjective basis.

Evolutionary speaking, fighting in wars is the stupidest thing you can do. Based on evolution, the best thing to do would be to impregnate as many women as humanly possible, and not take any risks whatsoever with regards to your own life.

I agree with you on the subjectivity of morality though.

Show me where you called Bush and co. clueless in regards to continually talking about WMD's and I'll withdraw calling you a hypocrite.