For those of you who support the Iraq War. - GoFuckYourself.com

NBDesign · 12-18-2003, 08:12 PM

Message: Article: Since Saddam Hussein gained power 24 years ago, there have been only three years when Iraq was neither at war nor under crippling international sanctions. Now Iraq is under imminent threat of a new war that, according to news accounts, probably will begin with a two-day assault on Baghdad with about 800 cruise missiles -- an assault code-named "Shock and Awe."
But the United States, the superpower behind those plans and currently Saddam's greatest enemy, was his silent partner during most of the first half of his rule.

Saddam, having held power behind the scenes for 11 years, assumed the presidency of Iraq in July 1979 by forcing his cousin, President Ahmad Hassan al Bakr, into retirement. He inherited a potential problem and soon turned it into a war.

The January 1979 Islamic Revolution in Iran provided both danger and opportunity to Saddam and Iraq. Saddam feared that the revolt of the Iranian Shiites would give ideas to the Shiites of southern Iraq, the country's long-oppressed majority. Saddam's Baathists were a secular party, concerned about any spread of Islamic theocracy.

In September 1980, Saddam repudiated a 1975 border agreement with Iran, and the two sides started shelling military targets.

It was during this war that Saddam first made a name for himself as a user of banned weapons. From 1983 to 1988, Iraq used chemical weapons an estimated 195 times, killing about 50,000 Iranian troops.

It was also during this war that a dramatic shift in U.S.-Iraq relations occurred, converting Washington into Saddam's ally.

U.S. tilts toward Iraq

When the war started, President Jimmy Carter, with only a few months left in office, declared the United States would stay out of it. Carter barred the sale of U.S.-made commercial jets and turbines to Iraq.

But soon after taking office in 1981, the Reagan administration changed to a policy that "tilted" toward Iraq. Reagan lifted Carter's ban on jet sales. The Reagan administration, which viewed Iran as its top enemy in the region, found many ways to help Iraq, despite Saddam's well-known involvement with terrorists and grisly human rights violations.

In 1982, the Reagan administration removed Iraq from its list of state sponsors of terrorism.

In December 1983, Donald Rumsfeld, then a special presidential envoy, met with Saddam in Baghdad and told him that the United States wanted to resume full diplomatic relations. In a CNN interview in September 2002, Rumsfeld said: "In that visit, I cautioned him about the use of chemical weapons, as a matter or fact, and discussed a host of other things." Saddam agreed to diplomatic relations, which were resumed in 1984, but he kept using poison gas.

The Washington Post has reported that the U.S. government's favors to Iraq during the Iran-Iraq period included intelligence sharing, cluster bombs from the CIA through a Chilean front company, efforts to cut off foreign military supplies to Iran (except when Washington decided to provide weapons to the Iranians in the famous arms-for-hostages deal that was at the heart of the 1986 Iran-Contra scandal) and facilitating Iraq's acquisition of materials for chemical and biological weapons.

U.S. companies supplied chemicals, missile components and computers that had military uses. Among the computer suppliers was Minnesota-based Unisys. And Iraq acquired the "fuel air explosive," pioneered by Minnesota-based Honeywell, which sets the air on fire. The sales were licensed by the U.S. government.

In its piece reviewing the U.S. assistance to Iraq during the 1980s, the Post quoted David Newton, former U.S. ambassador to Iraq: "Fundamentally, the policy was justified. We were concerned that Iraq should not lose the war with Iran, because that would have threatened Saudi Arabia and the Gulf. Our long-term hope was that Hussein's government would become less repressive and more responsible."

No sanctions

The war with Iran ended Aug. 20, 1988, after eight years and the loss of more than 1 million lives. In the end, not an inch of territory changed hands.

Toward the end of the war and immediately after it, Saddam turned his chemical attacks against Kurdish towns and villages, presumably to punish the Kurds for their wartime collaboration with Iran.

In 1987-88, Iraq conducted a campaign known as the Anfal, killing an estimated 100,000 Iraqi Kurds. Many were executed or killed by shells. But many also died by having poison gas dropped on them, including mustard gas, which burns, mutates DNA and causes cancer; the nerve gases sarin and tabun, which can kill, paralyze or cause nerve damage; and possibly VX gas and the biological agent atafloxin. All are banned by international law.

The most famous attack was the gassing of Halabja, a mostly Kurdish city near the Iranian border, on March 16, 1988. Rebel Kurds, working with Iranian troops, had taken the town a few days earlier. The gassing, which killed an estimated 5,000 Kurds, was part of the successful Iraqi counterattack.

U.S. Sen. Claiborne Pell, D-R.I., horrified at the attacks on the Kurds, got the Senate to unanimously adopt the Prevention of Genocide Act, which would end U.S. subsidies, U.S. purchases of Iraqi oil and ban the export to Iraq of technology that would help advance its weapons programs.

Still seeking to maintain its relationship with Iraq, and mindful that U.S. farmers and U.S. corporations were making a lot of money selling to Iraq, the White House opposed the sanctions.

One internal State Department memo put the tradeoff between ethical, political and economic considerations this way: "Human rights and chemical weapons use aside, in many respects our political and economic interests run parallel with those of Iraq."

The Prevention of Genocide Act died in the House.

In 1989, President George Bush opposed a second stripped-down Iraq sanctions bill right up to the day that Iraq invaded Kuwait in 1990. Within hours of the invasion, the bill passed 416-0 and Bush, by executive order, imposed a total embargo on Iraq and a freeze on Iraqi assets in the United States.

more.....

NBDesign · 12-18-2003, 08:13 PM

...cont

Invading Kuwait

Saddam's grievances against Kuwait were recent and ancient. He reasserted the old claim that Kuwait was unjustly severed from Iraq by the British after World War I. But the key issues were oil and money.

Kuwait insisted on repayment of billions of dollars it had lent to Iraq during the war with Iran. Saddam, who felt he had fought on behalf of all the gulf's Arab states, wanted the loans forgiven. Iraq also accused Kuwait of using "slant drilling" techniques to suck Iraqi oil across the border. And there was Kuwait's insistence on producing more than its OPEC-established quota of oil, which kept prices down and interfered with Iraq's postwar economic recovery program.

On July 24, 1990, Saddam massed troops on the Kuwaiti border.

Bush administration statements on the crisis in the weeks leading up to the Iraqi invasion have led to a long-standing argument over whether -- intentionally or unintentionally -- the United States gave Saddam a "green light" to invade Kuwait.

U.S. officials generally stated U.S. opposition to the use of force to settle Iraq's dispute with Kuwait. But none pledged a U.S. military response if Saddam invaded. And some implied the opposite. For example, State Department spokeswoman Margaret Tutwiler said publicly on July 25 that the United States had "no special defense or security commitments to Kuwait."

The most famous incident contributing to the "green light" theory was the July 26 meeting in Baghdad between Saddam and U.S. Ambassador April Glaspie. An Iraqi transcript of the meeting has been disputed by Glaspie. But Glaspie's cable to Washington after the meeting is consistent with the Iraqi account in most respects.

According to the transcript, Glaspie assured Saddam that Bush still opposed sanctions and wanted better relations with Iraq, that the United States admired Saddam's efforts to rebuild his country and sympathized with the economic problems he was having, including those caused by the oil policies of nations such as Kuwait. In the most famous portion of the transcript, Glaspie told Saddam that "we have no opinion on Arab-Arab conflicts like your border disagreement with Kuwait."

A week later, an estimated 100,000 Iraqi troops and 300 tanks crossed the border.

Desert Storm

Three weeks after the 1990 invasion, the United Nations imposed sweeping sanctions on Iraq. The sanctions are still in place.

On Nov. 29, 1990, the Security Council voted 12-2 with one abstention to authorize the use of force unless Iraq withdrew by Jan. 15. Of the veto-wielding permanent members, four voted for the resolution, and China abstained. It was the first time since the Korean War that the United Nations had authorized such an action.

The United States contributed about half of the 660,000 troops who participated in the alliance, but about 100,000 came from predominantly Muslim nations, including Arab states such as Egypt and Saudi Arabia.

On Jan. 17, 1991, the allied forces started five weeks of missile and bomb assaults on Iraq and the Iraqi troops in Kuwait. Saddam responded by launching Scud missiles at Israel, Saudi Arabia and U.S. troop positions. One missile hit a barracks and killed 28 U.S. soldiers. The 39 Scud missiles aimed at Israel caused property damage but few casualties.

When the allied ground assault began on Feb. 24, the Iraqi troops were virtually unable to resist. They surrendered, retreated or were killed by the thousands. The ground war lasted just 100 hours.

On Feb. 28, Bush and his military team made the fateful decision to stop the war rather than proceed into Baghdad to remove Saddam from power.

Bush has explained that he was honoring the U.N. resolution, which authorized the allies to liberate Kuwait, not to change Iraq's government.

Historians and analysts have pointed to several considerations that may have contributed to Bush's decision:

The war had been astonishingly successful, with 148 U.S. combat deaths compared with more than 100,000 on the Iraqi side. Taking the war into Baghdad could have increased the U.S. casualty rate.

The ground war had become what some called a "turkey shoot" with U.S. troops killing tens of thousands of retreating Iraqi soldiers. Colin Powell, then chairman of the Joint Chiefs, expressed concern about the psychological effect on his soldiers if the slaughter continued.

The task of occupying and running postwar Iraq would be difficult and especially unappealing to an administration with a distaste for "nation-building" missions. Key U.S. allies, especially Arab states, strongly opposed a U.S. occupation of Iraq.

Bush believed that Saddam had been so damaged that he soon would be overthrown.

Bush publicly called on Iraqis to "take matters into their own hands -- to force Saddam Hussein the dictator to step aside."

It almost happened. Separate uprisings by the Kurds in the north and the Shiia in the south took control of the majority of the country by mid-March. But the rebels counted on U.S. aid that never came. Using helicopter gunships, Saddam crushed the uprisings. U.S. jets were in the sky, above the helicopters, but didn't intervene.

No-fly zones

The U.N. demanded that Iraq stop repressing the Kurds and the Shiites but specified no enforcement mechanism. The United States, Britain and France, with backing from the European Union, offered a measure of protection by imposing no-fly zones in the north and south, starting in April 1991. The restrictions put most of Iraq's air space off limits to its planes.

As part of the cease-fire that ended the Gulf War and a U.N. resolution, Saddam agreed to give up biological, chemical and nuclear weapons and to submit to inspections.

That commitment -- and the argument that Saddam has failed to fulfill it -- is at the heart of the current Bush administration's case for a possible new attack on Iraq.

Saddam in a box

In April 1993, Kuwaiti authorities intercepted a Toyota Land Cruiser packed with explosives and driven by Iraqi agents. The Kuwaitis and ultimately the U.S. government concluded that the car bomb was intended to assassinate former President Bush, who was due to visit Kuwait the next day. President Bill Clinton retaliated in June by launching 23 cruise missiles at the headquarters of the Iraqi Intelligence Service.

During the 1990s, the Clinton administration said that it had Saddam "in a box," through sanctions, no-fly zones, U.N. inspectors and intermittent bombing attacks.

Humanitarian groups have argued that the sanctions were killing hundreds of thousands of Iraqis through starvation, shortages of medicine and the degradation of sanitary systems.

Sanction supporters generally reply that Saddam was to blame for the continuation of the sanctions, for his refusal to comply with U.N. resolutions. In one famous remark by then-Secretary of State Madeleine Albright, the goal of containing Saddam made the sanctions "worth the price."

In 1995, the U.N. modified the sanctions, allowing Iraq to essentially trade oil for food and medicine.

The first inspection team, known as UNSCOM (U.N. Special Commission to Oversee Destruction of Iraq's Weapons of Mass Destruction) did supervise the destruction of large quantities of banned weapons.

But it wasn't until Saddam's son-in-law Hussein Kamel defected to Jordan in 1995 that the inspectors learned about large hidden quantities of chemical and biological weapons. The Iraqi explanation was that Kamel had been hiding the materials himself.

Saddam publicly promised his errant son-in-law a pardon if he would return to Iraq. Kamel returned on Feb. 20, 1996. He was gunned down Feb. 23.

The U.N. inspectors continued to find themselves in a frustrating game of cat and mouse. And the Iraqis complained that no level of cooperation or disarmament would end the sanctions. They cited comments by several top U.S. officials suggesting that the sanctions would continue as long as Saddam was in power. In fact, from 1991 to 1996, the Washington Post reported, the CIA spent about $100 million trying to overthrow Saddam.

Iraq complained that UNSCOM was providing cover for U.S. spies. In fact, the New York Times, Washington Post and Boston Globe all reported later that UNSCOM teams did include undercover agents planted to gather intelligence on Saddam and his military.

The breakdown between Iraq and UNSCOM was complete in 1998. Saddam placed restrictions on inspections, leading UNSCOM chief Richard Butler to withdraw the inspectors to protest Iraq's lack of cooperation.

The United States and Britain responded to the end of inspections with a four-day blitz of missiles and bombs aimed at suspected weapons sites.

During 2001, the new Bush administration had military planners working on contingency plans for an attack on Iraq but had no timetable. But, within a few hours of the Sept. 11 attacks, Defense Secretary Rumsfeld began proposing that, as part of its response against terrorism, the United States should go after Iraq.

NBDesign · 12-18-2003, 08:14 PM

So, for every one of our military that is killed over there... we have no one to blame but ourselves....

xroach · 12-18-2003, 08:18 PM

my parents always made me clean up my own messes

thanks america

DarkBob · 12-18-2003, 08:22 PM

can someone sum all that up in a sentence or two please?

Amputate Your Head · 12-18-2003, 08:24 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by DarkBob
can someone sum all that up in a sentence or two please?

Iraq got proper fucked.

Roger · 12-18-2003, 08:26 PM

Looks like David Kay, the guy who was in charge of finding Saddam's WMD's is packing his bags and coming back to the US without finding any of those weapons.

DarkBob · 12-18-2003, 08:27 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Amputate Your Head

Iraq got proper fucked.

thanks

NBDesign · 12-18-2003, 08:28 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by DarkBob
can someone sum all that up in a sentence or two please?

I know.. it is a lot to read.. but it is worth it.

But to sum it up in a sentance, This war is our fault...... So every soldier that gets killed over there... american or otherwise, is on the heads of our past leaders... and current one.

JohnAMC · 12-18-2003, 08:35 PM

NB Design - So what you are saying is that you are as responsible as the guy living next door to you and the soldier kneeling next to his fallen commrade?

NBDesign · 12-18-2003, 08:37 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by JohnAMC
NB Design - So what you are saying is that you are as responsible as the guy living next door to you and the soldier kneeling next to his fallen commrade?

Me? Hell no, I have no power... I was against this war from the beginning... our effors should have been focused on bin ladden.

our wonderful republican leaders are the one to blame for this war and the reasons we are there now. It all started with Regan.

God bless republicans... no one else will.

ThunderBalls · 12-18-2003, 08:37 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by JohnAMC
NB Design - So what you are saying is that you are as responsible as the guy living next door to you and the soldier kneeling next to his fallen commrade?

No, he's saying Reagan and Bush Sr. are.

axelcat · 12-18-2003, 08:42 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by DarkBob
can someone sum all that up in a sentence or two please?

I agree this guy is trying to write a novel

NBDesign · 12-18-2003, 08:44 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by ThunderBalls

No, he's saying Reagan and Bush Sr. are.

Someone who actualy read the article... Thanks

NBDesign · 12-18-2003, 08:46 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by axelcat

I agree this guy is trying to write a novel

Actually, it was a cut-n-paste job...

Everyone always says I never back up what I say... well this is my backup. Sorry if you are too lazy to take the time to read or care.

I Am Saddam! · 12-18-2003, 08:56 PM

america and england have been using mustard gas since world war one, so who are they to tell others they cant?

JohnAMC · 12-18-2003, 09:08 PM

I served in Viet Nam, Beirut, Iran, Somalia, Desert Storm, Bosnia, Afghanistan, and Iraq. The crap I have seen done to everyday people like you and your family, would turn your stomach as it did mine. I had many good friends that lost their lives trying to make this world a better place, for those that can't defend themselves. People that just want to scratch out a meager existance and don't a pot to piss in. If the U.S. as a superpower doesn't try to stem this tide, then who will. And when the shit hits the fan on our own ground as it did on 9-11, who will go after and stop the groups and tyrants that instigated it. You should feel very lucky that you live in a society that lets you question your government.

Sorry for the flag waving. But that is just the way I feel.

ThunderBalls · 12-18-2003, 09:10 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by JohnAMC
And when the shit hits the fan on our own ground as it did on 9-11, who will go after and stop the groups and tyrants that instigated it. You should feel very lucky that you live in a society that lets you question your government.

Sorry for the flag waving. But that is just the way I feel.

Once again, what the hell does Iraq have to do with 9/11?

Dirty F · 12-18-2003, 09:11 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by JohnAMC
And when the shit hits the fan on our own ground as it did on 9-11, who will go after and stop the groups and tyrants that instigated it.

Why you think the good ol USA got attacked and not another country?

Keep on fighting boy, youre a real hero, making the world a better place.

Not.

Alex From San Diego · 12-18-2003, 09:12 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by NBDesign

I know.. it is a lot to read.. but it is worth it.

But to sum it up in a sentance, This war is our fault...... So every soldier that gets killed over there... american or otherwise, is on the heads of our past leaders... and current one.

Obviously you have never put your life on the line. When and if you do which I highly doubt, you might sing a different tune.

Tell that to my buddy.

rooster · 12-18-2003, 09:15 PM

the extreme left thinks they could have defeated the nazis and commies with diplomacy LOL face it, you owe your worthless hippie life to mother green and her fighting machine.

JohnAMC · 12-18-2003, 09:17 PM

Battuss - Amsterdam? Where's that ?

ThunderBalls · 12-18-2003, 09:19 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by rooster
the extreme left thinks they could have defeated the nazis and commies with diplomacy LOL face it, you owe your worthless hippie life to mother green and her fighting machine.

Obviously we didnt defeat the nazis, they're alive and well in the White House.

SureFire · 12-18-2003, 09:19 PM

NBDesign, link to the article? Thanks.

xroach · 12-18-2003, 09:22 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by JohnAMC
I served in Viet Nam, Beirut, Iran, Somalia, Desert Storm, Bosnia, Afghanistan, and Iraq. The crap I have seen done to everyday people like you and your family, would turn your stomach as it did mine. I had many good friends that lost their lives trying to make this world a better place, for those that can't defend themselves. People that just want to scratch out a meager existance and don't a pot to piss in. If the U.S. as a superpower doesn't try to stem this tide, then who will. And when the shit hits the fan on our own ground as it did on 9-11, who will go after and stop the groups and tyrants that instigated it. You should feel very lucky that you live in a society that lets you question your government.

Sorry for the flag waving. But that is just the way I feel.

Dirty F · 12-18-2003, 09:23 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by JohnAMC
Battuss - Amsterdam? Where's that ?

I doubt you wouldnt know.

JohnAMC · 12-18-2003, 09:25 PM

Hey Thunderballs - if the bullets where to fly you can stand in front of me anytime.

JohnAMC · 12-18-2003, 09:26 PM

Wasn't Amsterdam a speed bump for the Germans during WW2?

Dirty F · 12-18-2003, 09:29 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by JohnAMC
Wasn't Amsterdam a speed bump for the Germans during WW2?

No no, check your history books instead of your guns. We were the people that build up parts of your country.

To bad war hungry idiots like you fucked it up by trying to be a super power and having 3/4 of the world against you.

ThunderBalls · 12-18-2003, 09:30 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by JohnAMC
Hey Thunderballs - if the bullets where to fly you can stand in front of me anytime.

Thanks but my tax dollars get wasted to have people like you take care of that.

NBDesign · 12-18-2003, 09:30 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by JohnAMC
And when the shit hits the fan on our own ground as it did on 9-11, who will go after and stop the groups and tyrants that instigated it. You should feel very lucky that you live in a society that lets you question your government.

Sorry for the flag waving. But that is just the way I feel.

If you are going to use 9/11 as an excuse... Bin ladden is still out there... HE cause 9/11 and the 93 bombing at the world trade centers... yet... we go after someone else...

What has Saddam done to us that we need to invade his country?

Sorry for not waving the flag... This was a sensless waste of lives.

Dirty F · 12-18-2003, 09:32 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by NBDesign

If you are going to use 9/11 as an excuse... Bin ladden is still out there... HE cause 9/11 and the 93 bombing at the world trade centers... yet... we go after someone else...

What has Saddam done to us that we need to invade his country?

Sorry for not waving the flag... This was a sensless waste of lives.

Shhh dont tell him the truth...he might be pissed off hes fighting for nothing.

Dirty F · 12-18-2003, 09:33 PM

Besides that he like to run around like an idiot emptying his gun in countries where he shouldnt be.

I Am Saddam! · 12-18-2003, 09:34 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by JohnAMC
I served in Viet Nam, Beirut, Iran, Somalia, Desert Storm, Bosnia, Afghanistan, and Iraq. The crap I have seen done to everyday people like you and your family, would turn your stomach as it did mine. I had many good friends that lost their lives trying to make this world a better place, for those that can't defend themselves. People that just want to scratch out a meager existance and don't a pot to piss in. If the U.S. as a superpower doesn't try to stem this tide, then who will. And when the shit hits the fan on our own ground as it did on 9-11, who will go after and stop the groups and tyrants that instigated it. You should feel very lucky that you live in a society that lets you question your government.

Sorry for the flag waving. But that is just the way I feel.

really? hmm........so what are you like 75 years old now fighting in afghanistan? stop liying dickhead, if you were in nam you wouldnt be in afghanistani meet 50 people a day that tell me they are american vets, your all pussys if you were doing your jobs you cowards wouldnt be here to talk now. heros die, cowards survive

NBDesign · 12-18-2003, 09:35 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Alex From San Diego

Obviously you have never put your life on the line. When and if you do which I highly doubt, you might sing a different tune.

Tell that to my buddy.

I would NEVER put myself in a position where someone had that much control over my life. Common, they put their life on the line because they are ordered to... you think these military people can say no to their orders? That is why I never joind the military... I will not be ordered to go into combat by someone sitting safely behind a desk. I may be stupid at times... but never that stupid.

Dirty F · 12-18-2003, 09:37 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by NBDesign

I would NEVER put myself in a position where someone had that much control over my life. Common, they put their life on the line because they are ordered to... you think these military people can say no to their orders? That is why I never joind the military... I will not be ordered to go into combat by someone sitting safely behind a desk. I may be stupid at times... but never that stupid.

No they are REAL HEROES! Just ask your goverment and they will verify this.

Heroes, i tell you!

NBDesign · 12-18-2003, 09:37 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by rooster
the extreme left thinks they could have defeated the nazis and commies with diplomacy LOL face it, you owe your worthless hippie life to mother green and her fighting machine.

Why is it EXTREME left or EXTREME right... can't their be a middle? Hey, I look at both sides before I make a judgement... in this case... we were wrong... it's ok to admit it... we are all human and we ALL make mistakes.

NBDesign · 12-18-2003, 09:39 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by SureFire
NBDesign, link to the article? Thanks.

Here you go...

http://www.grassrootsvictories.org/c...?contentid=300

TurboTrucker · 12-18-2003, 09:39 PM

Religion and success.

Quote:

Originally posted by Battuss

Why you think the good ol USA got attacked and not another country?

Dirty F · 12-18-2003, 09:41 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by TurboTrucker
Religion and success.

Uh...

HAHAHAHA

GonePhishing · 12-18-2003, 09:42 PM

Nice post!

NBDesign · 12-18-2003, 09:43 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Battuss

No they are REAL HEROES! Just ask your goverment and they will verify this.

Heroes, i tell you!

Actually, to me... a REAL HERO is someone who WILLINGLY puts themselves in danger to save another... not someone ordered to do so.

Please, I am not trying to bash our military, I think they are doing a great job and I would hate to be one of them right now. But they are there under orders of a man sitting in his comfy chair in his warm office. Ordered to fight a war that should not be fought. Dying for nothing. Saddam was never a real threat to us... if he was, Iraq would have attacked us, not some flakey trrorist group.

TurboTrucker · 12-18-2003, 09:44 PM

So we're not trying to find Bin Laden?

Quote:

Originally posted by NBDesign

If you are going to use 9/11 as an excuse... Bin ladden is still out there... HE cause 9/11 and the 93 bombing at the world trade centers... yet... we go after someone else...

makefuckingmoney · 12-18-2003, 09:44 PM

I wish we had more bombs..that would solve a lot of the issues over there..

NBDesign · 12-18-2003, 09:45 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by TurboTrucker
So we're not trying to find Bin Laden?

Are we? Seems all our troops and efforts are in Iraq.

TurboTrucker · 12-18-2003, 09:45 PM

Nice argument. And that's about the extent of it.

Quote:

Originally posted by Battuss

Uh...

HAHAHAHA

I Am Saddam! · 12-18-2003, 09:45 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by TurboTrucker
Religion and success.

are u fucking mental? the US got attacked by its own government under the premise of terrorism from countrys that got sick of america stealing thier natural resources and exploiting people so americans can be ultra rich fags living in fantasyland while the rest of the world cant eat. your not successful you were born into a lying scum cheating country that would kill its own mother for a dollar

NBDesign · 12-18-2003, 09:46 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by makefuckingmoney
I wish we had more bombs..that would solve a lot of the issues over there..

I just wish that we all had sensible leaders that cared more about their people than their political status or how much money they can rape us for. After all, the president of the united states is still a public servant.

MicDoohan · 12-18-2003, 09:48 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Battuss

Uh...

HAHAHAHA

what the fuck are you laughing at penis head. Religion and sucess played a huge role in it. Those fuckers are mad - killing everyone and everything in the name of some bullshit religion.

And as far as sucess goes what the fuck has amsterdam ever contributed to the world cept maybe a couple of live feeds and truckloads of pot

JohnAMC · 12-18-2003, 09:49 PM

I am Saddam - Do the math man. I am 53. I was in viet nam in 1969 and I was 19. Sorry guy but that doesn't come close to 75.

12-18-2003, 08:12 PM	#1
NBDesign Confirmed User Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: The other side of Hell Posts: 5,814	For those of you who support the Iraq War. Message: Article: Since Saddam Hussein gained power 24 years ago, there have been only three years when Iraq was neither at war nor under crippling international sanctions. Now Iraq is under imminent threat of a new war that, according to news accounts, probably will begin with a two-day assault on Baghdad with about 800 cruise missiles -- an assault code-named "Shock and Awe." But the United States, the superpower behind those plans and currently Saddam's greatest enemy, was his silent partner during most of the first half of his rule. Saddam, having held power behind the scenes for 11 years, assumed the presidency of Iraq in July 1979 by forcing his cousin, President Ahmad Hassan al Bakr, into retirement. He inherited a potential problem and soon turned it into a war. The January 1979 Islamic Revolution in Iran provided both danger and opportunity to Saddam and Iraq. Saddam feared that the revolt of the Iranian Shiites would give ideas to the Shiites of southern Iraq, the country's long-oppressed majority. Saddam's Baathists were a secular party, concerned about any spread of Islamic theocracy. In September 1980, Saddam repudiated a 1975 border agreement with Iran, and the two sides started shelling military targets. It was during this war that Saddam first made a name for himself as a user of banned weapons. From 1983 to 1988, Iraq used chemical weapons an estimated 195 times, killing about 50,000 Iranian troops. It was also during this war that a dramatic shift in U.S.-Iraq relations occurred, converting Washington into Saddam's ally. U.S. tilts toward Iraq When the war started, President Jimmy Carter, with only a few months left in office, declared the United States would stay out of it. Carter barred the sale of U.S.-made commercial jets and turbines to Iraq. But soon after taking office in 1981, the Reagan administration changed to a policy that "tilted" toward Iraq. Reagan lifted Carter's ban on jet sales. The Reagan administration, which viewed Iran as its top enemy in the region, found many ways to help Iraq, despite Saddam's well-known involvement with terrorists and grisly human rights violations. In 1982, the Reagan administration removed Iraq from its list of state sponsors of terrorism. In December 1983, Donald Rumsfeld, then a special presidential envoy, met with Saddam in Baghdad and told him that the United States wanted to resume full diplomatic relations. In a CNN interview in September 2002, Rumsfeld said: "In that visit, I cautioned him about the use of chemical weapons, as a matter or fact, and discussed a host of other things." Saddam agreed to diplomatic relations, which were resumed in 1984, but he kept using poison gas. The Washington Post has reported that the U.S. government's favors to Iraq during the Iran-Iraq period included intelligence sharing, cluster bombs from the CIA through a Chilean front company, efforts to cut off foreign military supplies to Iran (except when Washington decided to provide weapons to the Iranians in the famous arms-for-hostages deal that was at the heart of the 1986 Iran-Contra scandal) and facilitating Iraq's acquisition of materials for chemical and biological weapons. U.S. companies supplied chemicals, missile components and computers that had military uses. Among the computer suppliers was Minnesota-based Unisys. And Iraq acquired the "fuel air explosive," pioneered by Minnesota-based Honeywell, which sets the air on fire. The sales were licensed by the U.S. government. In its piece reviewing the U.S. assistance to Iraq during the 1980s, the Post quoted David Newton, former U.S. ambassador to Iraq: "Fundamentally, the policy was justified. We were concerned that Iraq should not lose the war with Iran, because that would have threatened Saudi Arabia and the Gulf. Our long-term hope was that Hussein's government would become less repressive and more responsible." No sanctions The war with Iran ended Aug. 20, 1988, after eight years and the loss of more than 1 million lives. In the end, not an inch of territory changed hands. Toward the end of the war and immediately after it, Saddam turned his chemical attacks against Kurdish towns and villages, presumably to punish the Kurds for their wartime collaboration with Iran. In 1987-88, Iraq conducted a campaign known as the Anfal, killing an estimated 100,000 Iraqi Kurds. Many were executed or killed by shells. But many also died by having poison gas dropped on them, including mustard gas, which burns, mutates DNA and causes cancer; the nerve gases sarin and tabun, which can kill, paralyze or cause nerve damage; and possibly VX gas and the biological agent atafloxin. All are banned by international law. The most famous attack was the gassing of Halabja, a mostly Kurdish city near the Iranian border, on March 16, 1988. Rebel Kurds, working with Iranian troops, had taken the town a few days earlier. The gassing, which killed an estimated 5,000 Kurds, was part of the successful Iraqi counterattack. U.S. Sen. Claiborne Pell, D-R.I., horrified at the attacks on the Kurds, got the Senate to unanimously adopt the Prevention of Genocide Act, which would end U.S. subsidies, U.S. purchases of Iraqi oil and ban the export to Iraq of technology that would help advance its weapons programs. Still seeking to maintain its relationship with Iraq, and mindful that U.S. farmers and U.S. corporations were making a lot of money selling to Iraq, the White House opposed the sanctions. One internal State Department memo put the tradeoff between ethical, political and economic considerations this way: "Human rights and chemical weapons use aside, in many respects our political and economic interests run parallel with those of Iraq." The Prevention of Genocide Act died in the House. In 1989, President George Bush opposed a second stripped-down Iraq sanctions bill right up to the day that Iraq invaded Kuwait in 1990. Within hours of the invasion, the bill passed 416-0 and Bush, by executive order, imposed a total embargo on Iraq and a freeze on Iraqi assets in the United States. more..... __________________ Use Lensman's program and get the most for your hard earned traffic. Get Heidi for your site Here. Lots of sets to choose from. She makes a great Addition to any site. Grab one Grab All.

12-18-2003, 08:13 PM	#2
NBDesign Confirmed User Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: The other side of Hell Posts: 5,814	...cont Invading Kuwait Saddam's grievances against Kuwait were recent and ancient. He reasserted the old claim that Kuwait was unjustly severed from Iraq by the British after World War I. But the key issues were oil and money. Kuwait insisted on repayment of billions of dollars it had lent to Iraq during the war with Iran. Saddam, who felt he had fought on behalf of all the gulf's Arab states, wanted the loans forgiven. Iraq also accused Kuwait of using "slant drilling" techniques to suck Iraqi oil across the border. And there was Kuwait's insistence on producing more than its OPEC-established quota of oil, which kept prices down and interfered with Iraq's postwar economic recovery program. On July 24, 1990, Saddam massed troops on the Kuwaiti border. Bush administration statements on the crisis in the weeks leading up to the Iraqi invasion have led to a long-standing argument over whether -- intentionally or unintentionally -- the United States gave Saddam a "green light" to invade Kuwait. U.S. officials generally stated U.S. opposition to the use of force to settle Iraq's dispute with Kuwait. But none pledged a U.S. military response if Saddam invaded. And some implied the opposite. For example, State Department spokeswoman Margaret Tutwiler said publicly on July 25 that the United States had "no special defense or security commitments to Kuwait." The most famous incident contributing to the "green light" theory was the July 26 meeting in Baghdad between Saddam and U.S. Ambassador April Glaspie. An Iraqi transcript of the meeting has been disputed by Glaspie. But Glaspie's cable to Washington after the meeting is consistent with the Iraqi account in most respects. According to the transcript, Glaspie assured Saddam that Bush still opposed sanctions and wanted better relations with Iraq, that the United States admired Saddam's efforts to rebuild his country and sympathized with the economic problems he was having, including those caused by the oil policies of nations such as Kuwait. In the most famous portion of the transcript, Glaspie told Saddam that "we have no opinion on Arab-Arab conflicts like your border disagreement with Kuwait." A week later, an estimated 100,000 Iraqi troops and 300 tanks crossed the border. Desert Storm Three weeks after the 1990 invasion, the United Nations imposed sweeping sanctions on Iraq. The sanctions are still in place. On Nov. 29, 1990, the Security Council voted 12-2 with one abstention to authorize the use of force unless Iraq withdrew by Jan. 15. Of the veto-wielding permanent members, four voted for the resolution, and China abstained. It was the first time since the Korean War that the United Nations had authorized such an action. The United States contributed about half of the 660,000 troops who participated in the alliance, but about 100,000 came from predominantly Muslim nations, including Arab states such as Egypt and Saudi Arabia. On Jan. 17, 1991, the allied forces started five weeks of missile and bomb assaults on Iraq and the Iraqi troops in Kuwait. Saddam responded by launching Scud missiles at Israel, Saudi Arabia and U.S. troop positions. One missile hit a barracks and killed 28 U.S. soldiers. The 39 Scud missiles aimed at Israel caused property damage but few casualties. When the allied ground assault began on Feb. 24, the Iraqi troops were virtually unable to resist. They surrendered, retreated or were killed by the thousands. The ground war lasted just 100 hours. On Feb. 28, Bush and his military team made the fateful decision to stop the war rather than proceed into Baghdad to remove Saddam from power. Bush has explained that he was honoring the U.N. resolution, which authorized the allies to liberate Kuwait, not to change Iraq's government. Historians and analysts have pointed to several considerations that may have contributed to Bush's decision: The war had been astonishingly successful, with 148 U.S. combat deaths compared with more than 100,000 on the Iraqi side. Taking the war into Baghdad could have increased the U.S. casualty rate. The ground war had become what some called a "turkey shoot" with U.S. troops killing tens of thousands of retreating Iraqi soldiers. Colin Powell, then chairman of the Joint Chiefs, expressed concern about the psychological effect on his soldiers if the slaughter continued. The task of occupying and running postwar Iraq would be difficult and especially unappealing to an administration with a distaste for "nation-building" missions. Key U.S. allies, especially Arab states, strongly opposed a U.S. occupation of Iraq. Bush believed that Saddam had been so damaged that he soon would be overthrown. Bush publicly called on Iraqis to "take matters into their own hands -- to force Saddam Hussein the dictator to step aside." It almost happened. Separate uprisings by the Kurds in the north and the Shiia in the south took control of the majority of the country by mid-March. But the rebels counted on U.S. aid that never came. Using helicopter gunships, Saddam crushed the uprisings. U.S. jets were in the sky, above the helicopters, but didn't intervene. No-fly zones The U.N. demanded that Iraq stop repressing the Kurds and the Shiites but specified no enforcement mechanism. The United States, Britain and France, with backing from the European Union, offered a measure of protection by imposing no-fly zones in the north and south, starting in April 1991. The restrictions put most of Iraq's air space off limits to its planes. As part of the cease-fire that ended the Gulf War and a U.N. resolution, Saddam agreed to give up biological, chemical and nuclear weapons and to submit to inspections. That commitment -- and the argument that Saddam has failed to fulfill it -- is at the heart of the current Bush administration's case for a possible new attack on Iraq. Saddam in a box In April 1993, Kuwaiti authorities intercepted a Toyota Land Cruiser packed with explosives and driven by Iraqi agents. The Kuwaitis and ultimately the U.S. government concluded that the car bomb was intended to assassinate former President Bush, who was due to visit Kuwait the next day. President Bill Clinton retaliated in June by launching 23 cruise missiles at the headquarters of the Iraqi Intelligence Service. During the 1990s, the Clinton administration said that it had Saddam "in a box," through sanctions, no-fly zones, U.N. inspectors and intermittent bombing attacks. Humanitarian groups have argued that the sanctions were killing hundreds of thousands of Iraqis through starvation, shortages of medicine and the degradation of sanitary systems. Sanction supporters generally reply that Saddam was to blame for the continuation of the sanctions, for his refusal to comply with U.N. resolutions. In one famous remark by then-Secretary of State Madeleine Albright, the goal of containing Saddam made the sanctions "worth the price." In 1995, the U.N. modified the sanctions, allowing Iraq to essentially trade oil for food and medicine. The first inspection team, known as UNSCOM (U.N. Special Commission to Oversee Destruction of Iraq's Weapons of Mass Destruction) did supervise the destruction of large quantities of banned weapons. But it wasn't until Saddam's son-in-law Hussein Kamel defected to Jordan in 1995 that the inspectors learned about large hidden quantities of chemical and biological weapons. The Iraqi explanation was that Kamel had been hiding the materials himself. Saddam publicly promised his errant son-in-law a pardon if he would return to Iraq. Kamel returned on Feb. 20, 1996. He was gunned down Feb. 23. The U.N. inspectors continued to find themselves in a frustrating game of cat and mouse. And the Iraqis complained that no level of cooperation or disarmament would end the sanctions. They cited comments by several top U.S. officials suggesting that the sanctions would continue as long as Saddam was in power. In fact, from 1991 to 1996, the Washington Post reported, the CIA spent about $100 million trying to overthrow Saddam. Iraq complained that UNSCOM was providing cover for U.S. spies. In fact, the New York Times, Washington Post and Boston Globe all reported later that UNSCOM teams did include undercover agents planted to gather intelligence on Saddam and his military. The breakdown between Iraq and UNSCOM was complete in 1998. Saddam placed restrictions on inspections, leading UNSCOM chief Richard Butler to withdraw the inspectors to protest Iraq's lack of cooperation. The United States and Britain responded to the end of inspections with a four-day blitz of missiles and bombs aimed at suspected weapons sites. During 2001, the new Bush administration had military planners working on contingency plans for an attack on Iraq but had no timetable. But, within a few hours of the Sept. 11 attacks, Defense Secretary Rumsfeld began proposing that, as part of its response against terrorism, the United States should go after Iraq. __________________ Use Lensman's program and get the most for your hard earned traffic. Get Heidi for your site Here. Lots of sets to choose from. She makes a great Addition to any site. Grab one Grab All.

12-18-2003, 08:14 PM	#3
NBDesign Confirmed User Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: The other side of Hell Posts: 5,814	So, for every one of our military that is killed over there... we have no one to blame but ourselves.... __________________ Use Lensman's program and get the most for your hard earned traffic. Get Heidi for your site Here. Lots of sets to choose from. She makes a great Addition to any site. Grab one Grab All.

12-18-2003, 08:35 PM	#10
JohnAMC Registered User Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Dallas, Texas Posts: 10	NB Design - So what you are saying is that you are as responsible as the guy living next door to you and the soldier kneeling next to his fallen commrade? __________________ SIG TOO BIG! Maximum 120x60 button and no more than 3 text lines of DEFAULT SIZE and COLOR. Unless your sig is for a GFY top banner sponsor, then you may use a 624x80 instead of a 120x60.

12-18-2003, 09:08 PM	#17
JohnAMC Registered User Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Dallas, Texas Posts: 10	I served in Viet Nam, Beirut, Iran, Somalia, Desert Storm, Bosnia, Afghanistan, and Iraq. The crap I have seen done to everyday people like you and your family, would turn your stomach as it did mine. I had many good friends that lost their lives trying to make this world a better place, for those that can't defend themselves. People that just want to scratch out a meager existance and don't a pot to piss in. If the U.S. as a superpower doesn't try to stem this tide, then who will. And when the shit hits the fan on our own ground as it did on 9-11, who will go after and stop the groups and tyrants that instigated it. You should feel very lucky that you live in a society that lets you question your government. Sorry for the flag waving. But that is just the way I feel. __________________ SIG TOO BIG! Maximum 120x60 button and no more than 3 text lines of DEFAULT SIZE and COLOR. Unless your sig is for a GFY top banner sponsor, then you may use a 624x80 instead of a 120x60.

12-18-2003, 08:18 PM	#4
xroach Confirmed User Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: vancouver, bc Posts: 963	my parents always made me clean up my own messes thanks america

12-18-2003, 08:22 PM	#5
DarkBob Confirmed User Industry Role: Join Date: Jun 2001 Location: Las Vegas Posts: 2,300	can someone sum all that up in a sentence or two please?

12-18-2003, 08:26 PM	#7
Roger Confirmed User Industry Role: Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: MetroCity Posts: 3,181	Looks like David Kay, the guy who was in charge of finding Saddam's WMD's is packing his bags and coming back to the US without finding any of those weapons.

12-18-2003, 08:56 PM	#16
I Am Saddam! So Fucking Banned Join Date: Dec 2003 Posts: 93	america and england have been using mustard gas since world war one, so who are they to tell others they cant?

12-18-2003, 09:15 PM	#21
rooster Confirmed User Join Date: Jan 2003 Posts: 2,384	the extreme left thinks they could have defeated the nazis and commies with diplomacy LOL face it, you owe your worthless hippie life to mother green and her fighting machine. __________________ Ever notice that pretty much everything added to the Constitution after the original was a mistake.

12-18-2003, 09:17 PM	#22
JohnAMC Registered User Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Dallas, Texas Posts: 10	Battuss - Amsterdam? Where's that ? __________________ SIG TOO BIG! Maximum 120x60 button and no more than 3 text lines of DEFAULT SIZE and COLOR. Unless your sig is for a GFY top banner sponsor, then you may use a 624x80 instead of a 120x60.

12-18-2003, 09:19 PM	#24
SureFire Confirmed User Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: internet Posts: 4,398	NBDesign, link to the article? Thanks.

12-18-2003, 09:25 PM	#27
JohnAMC Registered User Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Dallas, Texas Posts: 10	Hey Thunderballs - if the bullets where to fly you can stand in front of me anytime. __________________ SIG TOO BIG! Maximum 120x60 button and no more than 3 text lines of DEFAULT SIZE and COLOR. Unless your sig is for a GFY top banner sponsor, then you may use a 624x80 instead of a 120x60.

12-18-2003, 09:26 PM	#28
JohnAMC Registered User Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Dallas, Texas Posts: 10	Wasn't Amsterdam a speed bump for the Germans during WW2? __________________ SIG TOO BIG! Maximum 120x60 button and no more than 3 text lines of DEFAULT SIZE and COLOR. Unless your sig is for a GFY top banner sponsor, then you may use a 624x80 instead of a 120x60.

12-18-2003, 09:33 PM	#33
Dirty F Too lazy to set a custom title Industry Role: Join Date: Jul 2001 Posts: 59,204	Besides that he like to run around like an idiot emptying his gun in countries where he shouldnt be.

12-18-2003, 09:42 PM	#41
GonePhishing Confirmed User Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: Blah Posts: 2,474	Nice post! __________________ If Biff Fucks My Mom... I Might Never Be Born...

12-18-2003, 09:44 PM	#44
makefuckingmoney Confirmed User Join Date: Oct 2003 Posts: 3,277	I wish we had more bombs..that would solve a lot of the issues over there..

12-18-2003, 09:49 PM	#50
JohnAMC Registered User Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Dallas, Texas Posts: 10	I am Saddam - Do the math man. I am 53. I was in viet nam in 1969 and I was 19. Sorry guy but that doesn't come close to 75. __________________ SIG TOO BIG! Maximum 120x60 button and no more than 3 text lines of DEFAULT SIZE and COLOR. Unless your sig is for a GFY top banner sponsor, then you may use a 624x80 instead of a 120x60.