100 dead kids

Guns don't kill innocent people....Stupid people kill innocent people.

The fact is that guns aren't going to disappear, nor will stupid people. When a stupid person has a weapon, they think they own the world. Unfortunately this is true as seen by our "leaders" in all nations. They'd rather fight using pawns then get in the ring with each other and establish true dominance. Firepower and currency have dropped our IQ's and strength as a whole.

If this world were ideal, we'd fight for dominance like real animals do. It's too bad we're the dumbest species on the planet. We let pre fabricated weapons kill instead of our fists. This world will never be an ideal world, and our "leaders" will kill us off long before our time is due. If you don't know this by now, you'd better realize it... Or not

Life is all porn, money, cars, weed and bitches! Bling Bling! :thumbsup

Even if that were true, why do you think population density matters when comparing countrys per-capita crime rates?
As someone already pointed out, using Japan as an example, higher density != higher crime rates.

It's statistically impossible to argue with the fact that the types of weapons available to the population affects the relative crime rate much more than density of that population.
Density may increase murders a little.. it's a sensible enough assumption.. but teenagers with easy access to semi-automatics will increase the murder rate a lot more. :ak47:

I don't think there's anything wrong with keeping a shotgun under the bed. It's enough to get the job done if you have an unwelcome visitor. People who feel they need / should be allowed to carry concealable weapons capable of killing many people very quickly have issues.

I still don't see why this
http://www.stressmedia.com/andy_gun.jpg
is any less silly than this
http://www.ai.mit.edu/lab/olympics/9...ator/sword.jpg

Moore's thesis is very weak and unsupported by evidence. He's more of a comedian than a sociologist or criminologist. I'm very surprised at people who take Michael Moore seriously. Would you take Chris Rock seriously if he wrote a book called "Stupid Black Men" just because you share similar political views?

Consider that the US homicide rate is at a 30 year low. Arguably, that has happened precisely during the time when media has most increased fear and loathing.

The 2000 US homicide rate was 6.1/100k, the lowest since 5.9 in 1966 and the same as 6.1 in 1913. In 90 years the homicide rate in the US is unchanged.

How does this at all support Moore's contention that media and government spread fear and cause high homicide rates?

Seems to me that the answer to the question of why the US has a high homicide rate compared to many other nations has roots in the first decade of the twentieth century much more than the last. In 1903 the US homicide rate was 1.2 per 100,000. Just four years later it was 4.9 per 100,000 in 1907. Why? It's never looked back (well, it's back to 1913 actually)

he doesn't say the US has high homicide rates. He says the US has comparitively high GUN homicide rates.

stupid person with gun = dead innocent person
stupid person with knife/bat = sore possibly dead innocent person

So you're saying that Moore's thesis is that fear created by government and media influences people to kill each other with guns but not with other weapons?

I want one of these:
http://www.ozarkmtns.com/less-lethal/distract.htm

I was just pointing out that the US doesn't have particularly high homicde rates.. it is when you separate out how people kill each other that the "gun homicide" rate is enormous when compared to similar countries.

Moore is more intelligent than most of the right wing idiots who publish books these days. Just because he has a sense of humor doesn't mean he's not to be taken seriously at all.

Do you take Ann Coulter, Rush Limbaugh, Bill O'Reilly, George W. Bush, or Sean Hannity seriously?

I doubt any of them could stand up to Michael Moore in a debate.

You're wrong. The US has the sixth highest homicide rate in the world ahead of all those "similar countries". "particularly high" one should say.

You should be embarrassed.

Michael Moore is no more "intelligent" than any of the conservative commentators you mentioned. Not one bit. You just have an emotional attachment to him because your views coincide. That's all.

The mindless right quote Rush Limbaugh and the mindless left quote Michael Moore. There is no difference.

Michael Moore makes claims and backs them up with anecdotal evidence. That's called pseudo-science. It's no different than the people who believe in ESP because they once had a feeling a friend of theirs was going to call and then the telephone rang.

heh no i'm not :).. If you compare the stats the US has a *slightly* higher homicde rate than most similar countries, but when you do 'gun homicides' the magnitude higher is approaching 10X..

Try again Colin, but i'm going to sleep.

The USA has an exceptionally high homicide rate.
The rest of the civilized world finds it pretty crazy,
that such a rich country can't get crime under control.

I know GFY'rs hate clicking on links,
but for the purposes of debate you've
really got to check out the stats here:

pretty graph
(great site.. can compare countries in all sorts of categorys)

this is purely per-capita. murders per 1000 people.
guns, knives, pointy-sticks, whatever... total.

wow. this is also really fucked up.

US prison population VS other countrys

Where we live we only lock the door at night to keep the drunk teenagers from wandering in by accident or something. Sure, we lock our door when we go out, but we also have a lot of computer/stereo equipment, and the kids around here aren't dumb. However, the REAL chances of us getting robbed are slim to none. In a community like this, everybody knows everybody. You couldn't steal something and keep it secret for long.

And as for guns, everyone and their fool has guns up here. But I'd be more worried about them shooting their own foot off or taking a potshot at someone's dog than I would of them using it to threaten me and my family in any way.

:thumbsup

My favorite part of the movie is where the idiot is harrassing Dick Clark with nonsense about how this poor woman was "forced to work!" How was she "forced" to work? When the voters of Michigan said they would no longer pay her for having kids?
Or when MM gravely intones that this woman worked up to 75 hours a week and still could not pay her rent. Please. Put down the pipe, bitch and pay the fucking rent.
Or how he forgot to mention that her brother's house in which she was "forced" to live was also the neighborhood crackhouse, shut down days after the shooting to the applause and cheers of neighbors? Or that the gun the child used to kill the other student was a stolen hand gun? MM would have liked to have you believe it was the legally purchased firearm of an NRA member.


And if someone where to write a book about the problems in the black community and call it "Stupid Black Men" what would the lefty reaction be, I wonder?


I support tighter control on guns but MM is a fucking idiot blowhard. Just like Rush.

Substitute Bush's name for anyone in the world, including your own, and you can make the same claim.

Your right wing rhetoric is weak tonight. Too much Limbaugh for you. :)

Geeze - does it really matter HOW you die? If the US has 1000 deaths per 100,000 people and so does, say, some country where they don't allow guns, I'll promise you those 1000 people are JUST as dead even though they weren't killed with a gun. :thumbsup

Again, Japan is not a country which can be compared to the US. For a number of reasons Japan is still vastly different from the United States.

The fact that it is almost 100% homogenous (something which creates a sense of community) in my opinion, is one reason why crime rates can be expected to be lower in Japan.

London, England is one of the most multicultural cities I've ever been to, it has a population of over 7 million, and England has a per capita gun death rate waaay lower than America.

This further reinforces my point. You claim that the easy availability of Guns in America is responsible for the higher proportion of homicide per capita as compared to other nations.

I on the other hand believe that the higher rate of homicide is caused by numerous social and demographic conditions (urban density being one).

That graph proves that the many factors; including social, political, demographic, etc, lead Americans to commit more crime in general, as well as more murders. I mean, if Americans are committing more crime in comparison to other peoples, is it not to be expected that their homicide rate would be higher too?

(Hope you can understand what I am trying to say. I having trouble trying to express exactly what I want)

These threads are great...

O'Reilly couldn't even stand up to Al Franken.

that's a silly statement

I really don't think London has gun and ammo stores next door to mcdonalds either.

That's like saying America has a huge Asian population but has waaaaay fewer deaths by flying Chinese stars.

Thank you!! I was gonna say what on earth is he talking about lol

I seen the movie this weekend myself and was quite shocked at the number of gun related death's. I was also a little saddened when I heard about all violence and fear that is instilled in American's due to new's source's etc.

I do not always lock my door, however I do at night. Common sense prevails there. If what that film says is true than I feel sorry for the American's that are constantly living in fear.

The association between the KKK and the NRA could be some what misleading, however, I do in fact see some correlation. Even Mr. Heston, blamed the amount of violence on immigrants etc.,.

The best part of that film was when the two students and Mr. Moore fought to have the ammo removed from the K-MART stores. I understand that American's have the right to bare arms, however, I don't think that automatic weapons were around when the constitution was written and furthermore, I don't think that it's necessary to have AK47 assault rifles or M16's and things along those lines.:2 cents:

And just like Chris Rock says, imagine if you had to pay $5,000 for a bullet....

fully automatic weapons are not as easy to come by as you are led to believe

My point was that there are cities in this world that are as multicural as American cities, yet they don't have nearly the rate of gun deaths. It was in response to Odin88s post as to why Japan has so few gun deaths.

Are you simple?

Of course it's much more densely populated.

US - population of 300 million.

UK - population of 60 million, but the whole country's smaller than California.

:1orglaugh

toronto has 8.3% blacks, yea you guys are so diversived.

blacks in canada 600,000

blacks in usa 30 million

I think if some of these other countries had the access to guns such as we do, the homicide rate would be way up there as well.

You're amusing.

You're obviously biased, but try to twist arguments and present very selective facts to prove that in fact your bias is the impartial truth. :1orglaugh

The avervage person cannot buy automatic weapons...it takes a special Federal License to buy an automatic weapon.

It's because guns are very difficult to get, and if you're found to possess a gun the jail term is immediately very high.

Funny that.

But people will still deny easy access to guns has any influence on gun crime.

:1orglaugh

michael moore is a fucking idiot. he wont express any of his views in the movie directly, he just interviews the people that'll make his case for him. and wheres the other side? he wont show the otherside of any statement made in his movie because that would give the idiots he's targeting more than one option to choose from. i watched the movie twice, and yes, i agree with the fact that the media puts fear into all americans. its what we want to see... they wouldnt show it otherwise.
:321GFY michael moore

guns dont kill people, people kill people
your arguement has been used here in california and now the government tells us which guns we can and cant own. fuck that noise. after they banned the first few guns, it all got out of control. now everything rifle is an "assault rifle" and handguns are next.

I'm not trying to defend him, but he did interview Charelton Heston the President of the NRA.

Yes, yes, yes - we all know that.

Both the left and right do the same thing.

Do you think the population is intelligent enough to see through the bias, or is everyone brainwashed by their respective dogma's?

NRA parrot :1orglaugh

heston has been ill for awhile now, and he no longer heads the nra. michael moore just wanted to ambush him with bs because he came and had a pro gun rally when michael moore and the other idiots were using the school shootings to forward their anti gun movement.

yeah, lets blame the guns for what people do with them. lets ban cars because some old fart passed out and killed a dozen people. when a gun gets banned, the people who use them lawfully and register them are the ones that get them taken away, not the criminals. so banning weapons will do nothing but enable the criminals. dance puppet dance.

Good comeback.

So you're saying you're not an NRA parrot? Are you actually able to think for yourself? Doesn't look like it. :1orglaugh

That's no excuse is it?

"You'll only ever pry my gun out of my cold, dead hands."

Has he broken his promise? :1orglaugh

my point was michael moore targeted him because he knew he'd look foolish. the man has freaking alzheimers, hes not going to be sharp and have good responses. i must have missed the part when moore took hestons gun away from him.... i should go watch it again

In fact cars kill more Americans every year than guns do...so both are instruments of death...and dead is dead...be it by accident or by intention. I for one will not be disarmed.

The last thing we need is any more laws concerning guns.

The solution is ever so easy.

Shoot someone - go to Jail

Life without parole spending every day making big rocks little.

Remove the cable TV / internet access / every other bullshit perc the left has given to inmates.

The same poeple trying to make guns illegal are the ones turning the prison system into a country club, shit for a dirt poor inner city kid, prison is a step up.

Maker prison exactly what is was ment to be - so fucking nasty no one will ever want to be there.

Fuck rehabilitation - PUNISH thosae that break the law

:thumbsup

What the hell does that matter?? Toronto is not ALL of Canada. Toronto is a multi cultural society. Sorry that does not just mean black...

TheKing, I understand that they are not that easy to get, but is it really necessary for common folk to have them?

Yes, when I start shooting while screaming "Dance Motherfucker!"
it just has a better affect than if I could only just shoot one at a time.

You're misinformed.

Homicide Rates (2000)

1 South Africa 50.14
2 Russia 21.40
3 Lithuania 10.00
4 Estonia 9.94
5 Latvia 6.22
6 USA 5.64
7 Spain 2.94
8 Finland 2.86

The US homicide rate is about twice that of the 8th country.

Here are some "similar" countries.

Canada 1.76
UK 1.61