AC Pay and fees - GoFuckYourself.com

ACPay Mac · 05-30-2003, 02:48 PM

We came up with the idea for AC Pay to provide AC webmasters with an alternative to the several 3rd Party billers for their paysites. We wanted a service that would expand our market penetration to attract non AC webmasters into the AC line of products.

The business was built based on certain assumptions, one of which was that by having the business in the EU and complying with all the Card Association rules there, we could avoid the IPSP rules and gain a competitive advantage which we would pass on to the webmasters.

I have to be cautious here because, as you all well know, our industry is quite competitive and as many detractors as supporters read these boards. In an effort to be forthcoming, we have to keep in mind that, as a business, our competitive edge can be diminished or lost to those who would take every advantage to take it away because of the information we provide.

That being said, the model was intentionally designed as an access management service. In anticipation of an even broader reach of the Association Rules, we formed two AC Pay entities, one in the UK and one here in the US.

Visa USA rules, at the time, had not caught up with EU region and, even to this day, no IPSP registration fees are required. That does not mean that they will not be in the future.

We made a marketing push that fees would not be charged because they were not going to be. As we have seen in the past, the industry quickly follows our lead and quite a few of our competitors made the switch to the EU model. And, as we have seen, some of those who made the switch took with them some of the same business practices that caused the Card Associations to create all the rules in the first place. Again, I want to be very careful here. I am not identifying any one particular company because I can?t. All I can say is that that the Banks with which we deal have expressed to us concerns that some of the merchants that followed in our foot steps have caused some problems. I personally think and feel that our main competitors are in this business for the long haul as are we and, as such, have good business practices to keep the model going. Some don?t and that?s a problem for the industry as a whole. That all being said, we went into this ?no fees? push in good faith and with every intention of having that be our competitive edge.

The problems followed the industry and a few bad apples (don?t know which ones) spoiled the barrel. The Banks and the Card Associations reacted, understandably, and those of us who are ?good apples? and there are a number of us, have to pay the price for those who are not.

The EU region now requires registration but no fees AS OF YET. So, we have to do all the work and go through all the hassle and paperwork of registering the clients. It takes time and it requires a commitment on the part of the client as well.

Perhaps inartfully spoken, but the cost and time really does make a difference from our perspective and to the bottom line.

So, here is the first issue, the $350 fee. It will not be charged to anyone who is already in the system. New clients that sign up, after June 30th, in the EU region will be charged to cover the costs. If and when the EU region starts charging the fees to pass on, we will credit the $350 for anyone who has paid. Until that happens, anyone who has paid the fee will get it back from us once they make $3000 in sales.

The second issue, US clients have to pay the $750 fee that goes to our processor. There is a possibility that the fee can be waived for clients who have already signed up through another processor. We are trying to get this clarified and confirmed through our bank. In the meantime, anyone who pays the fee will get it back from us from future processing based on volume criteria which we are working on right now. You can pay the fee with your Visa or Master Card

The third issue is that we have a US processor for our US clients? transactions and we are adding another in about two weeks.

Fourth, we have a US presence, an EU presence and a Latin Region presence. I would be more than happy to discuss, offline, with anyone, regional requirements of which I am aware.

Fifth, when we launched AC Pay, we had every intention of maintaining the competitive advantage of ?no fees? but we can?t. This all started two weeks ago exactly. We have been scrambling and working and brainstorming ever since to keep the product competitive and profitable. Our decisions did not come without a lot of soul searching. I take responsibility for not preparing my people for the fire storm of reaction. It happened quickly and in response to forces well beyond our control. Our forte is anticipating industry changes and proactively adapting to what we know is coming. The industry moved quickly on this and we moved quickly as well.

Sixth, any client who does not want to process Visa may elect not to and avoid the fees altogether.

Seventh, if you are a US client, not previously registered with another processor, have rebills in the system and you chose not to register through AC Pay, email me.

Eighth, we are in the process of adding several alternative pay models, namely ACH and EU Debit which will be up by July 5th. We are also writing the specs to integrate Xmoola and Web900. They will be on shortly after that.

I am personally concerned with the tone and tenor of the posts. All of us are part of the industry; all of us make our livings from this industry. I take it very seriously. I take it personally. I take blame for the bad and I share credit for the good. But I do not voice my criticism with a mean streak. I am not motivated by jealousy or ego. I am not the messenger of those who are.

Now is not the time for our family and friends to be divisive or derisive. There are many changes coming that will affect our industry in the coming months and if we are a house divided, we are a house that will fall. If we are a house united, we will prevail and rise above it, bruised, battered but intact.

AC Cormac

Pipecrew · 05-30-2003, 02:51 PM

good post

Tipsy · 05-30-2003, 03:05 PM

Now that makes a little more sense. Personal opinion is that you really do only have yourselves to blame for any bashing by issuing a VERY badly worded e-mail with little or no further explaination and then letting someone loose on the boards with really no idea at all, simply making matters far worse.

Read the initial e-mail and your reps initial posts properly and it's easy to see why anybody with half a brain would have major concerns and of course these will be voiced on boards. It's one of the things they are there for.

Post informed information that begins to make sense (as above) and you'll find far less people willing to jump on the bashing bandwagon.

p00p · 05-30-2003, 04:15 PM

What is your solution/suggestion(s) for Canadian customers?

Elephant_Gut · 05-30-2003, 04:47 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by p00p
What is your solution/suggestion(s) for Canadian customers?

Move to europe.

Or use Verotel or Glo-bill

ACPay Mac · 05-30-2003, 04:48 PM

p00p,

Rather than shoot off an off-the-cuff response on a Friday evening, I'll get back to you early next week on that, after I've had a chance to discuss it with our Banking department, who will, in turn, have discussed it with any necessary third parties, such as our banks.

Cormac

Groove · 05-30-2003, 08:14 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by p00p
What is your solution/suggestion(s) for Canadian customers?

Ditto for Australia.

Kimmykim · 05-30-2003, 08:33 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Elephant_Gut

Move to europe.

Or use Verotel or Glo-bill

Been on the short bus a little bit too much lately eh?

p00p · 05-30-2003, 09:20 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Elephant_Gut

Move to europe.

Or use Verotel or Glo-bill

So what do you suggest when Verotel and Glo-bill have to play by Visa's rules?

Va2k · 05-30-2003, 09:22 PM

Well nice fucking post, I will be the first to say I am sorry for running my hand if WHAT mac says is true. I did go with epoch/ibill and Ccbill as a 3rd back up for www.virginiaamateurs.com and left the dot net one with acpay for the webmasters that have 1000's of galleries out there. Hope this all works out, I might of jumped the gun cause of the way ccbill stole YES STOLE my rebills from me with so short FUCKING notice *shrugs* Its doggie dog world eh?

TOM

p00p · 05-30-2003, 09:22 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by ACPay Mac
p00p,

Rather than shoot off an off-the-cuff response on a Friday evening, I'll get back to you early next week on that, after I've had a chance to discuss it with our Banking department, who will, in turn, have discussed it with any necessary third parties, such as our banks.

Cormac

Fair enough, Cormac. I chose ACpay to skirt the Visa fees, on the other hand, I knew it was a matter of time....Ain't pissed at ACPay by any means. It would be nice to see a processor work hard to find a reasonable solution for Canadian webmasters, though.

p00p · 05-30-2003, 09:37 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by va2k
Well nice fucking post, I will be the first to say I am sorry for running my hand if WHAT mac says is true. I did go with epoch/ibill and Ccbill as a 3rd back up for www.virginiaamateurs.com and left the dot net one with acpay for the webmasters that have 1000's of galleries out there. Hope this all works out, I might of jumped the gun cause of the way ccbill stole YES STOLE my rebills from me with so short FUCKING notice *shrugs* Its doggie dog world eh?

TOM

People seem to forget that what just happened to ACPay already happened to ibill, ccbill, jettis, epoch etc.
They announced the Visa fees, people screamed murder, whined, cried, sold out....and it is all happening again. I feel it is safe to say the same thing will happen to Globill, Probilling, Verotel and all the other 2 bit billing companies that are running.....but can't hide.
tick-tock, tick-tock, tick-tock, tick-tock

gothweb · 05-30-2003, 09:40 PM

I think this shows that, medium- to long-term, there just isn't a way around the fees and so forth. Still, stand up honest statement from AC Pay. 7.5/10

p00p · 05-30-2003, 09:42 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by gothweb
I think this shows that, medium- to long-term, there just isn't a way around the fees and so forth. Still, stand up honest statement from AC Pay. 7.5/10

There IS no way around them! I could move my billing to another processor that claim they are in compliance blah blah blah...but it is only a matter of time. I am glad this is all happening. It was nice reading the ac board and seeing people say they aren't bothering building paysites anymore because of all this shit. Wait till the other 'safe' billers have the same problems.

gothweb · 05-30-2003, 09:44 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by p00p

It was nice reading the ac board and seeing people say they aren't bothering building paysites anymore because of all this shit. Wait till the other 'safe' billers have the same problems.

The same thing happened here, but the sky never fell. Though in the case of AC Pay, I guess it is good for them if people give up pay sites.... hmmm...

Pipecrew · 05-30-2003, 10:02 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by p00p

There IS no way around them! I could move my billing to another processor that claim they are in compliance blah blah blah...but it is only a matter of time. I am glad this is all happening. It was nice reading the ac board and seeing people say they aren't bothering building paysites anymore because of all this shit. Wait till the other 'safe' billers have the same problems.

dude, just pay the 750 and stop whining

sexydave · 05-30-2003, 10:22 PM

Well, as i was thinking, ACPay like others must follow the Visa's rules now... But i got 2-3 thing in mind :

Did the fee apply the all clients account (adult & non-adult business) ? We're running a webdesign company here in Canada, so we don't have recurring payment and chargeBack. We're doing both domain activity (Adult & corporate). Do we'll have to pay the fee?

I can understand the Visa Rules who's tired of having chargeback because of paysites that having recurring payments. But what happen to those who use 3third party CC processor to get paid for services in general??

I already contact ACPay to offer their payment method 6 month ago but they told me that they can't setup account to have custom amount payment. So, in a way, they told us they use exclusively subscription methods instead of offering both methods (subscription AND customs)...

We still surfing the net to find the best CC processor (at least for a short time) that could offer custom amount WITHOUT needed merchant account... I'll post some if i fund good ones.

Regards,

p00p · 05-30-2003, 10:27 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Pipecrew

dude, just pay the 750 and stop whining

Dude, Canadians don't have to pay the $750. Noob.

gothweb · 05-30-2003, 10:30 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by p00p

Dude, Canadians don't have to pay the $750. Noob.

They also can't process at all with Visa, according to the rules.

p00p · 05-30-2003, 10:36 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by gothweb

They also can't process at all with Visa, according to the rules.

Because Visa Canada doesn't process high risk. So Canadians have a choice. Process through USA, or UK billers, by incorporating in either region.

Kimmykim · 05-30-2003, 10:44 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by sexydave
I can understand the Visa Rules who's tired of having chargeback because of paysites that having recurring payments. But what happen to those who use 3third party CC processor to get paid for services in general??

You WOULD have these three choices.
1. Go with an IPSP and pay the fee. All their aggregated is high risk, you are not exempt from that with anyone I know regardless of the grey area factor.
2. Find yourself one of these unregulated aggregators and use them til they die and hope to collect as much as you can. Since you're not offering a recurring product, you probably won't lose any more than a period's worth of billings.
3. Get a merchant account and deal with it yourself.

Since you are in Canada, you really can't do the first one. You can do the second one if you like playing with fire.

Of course if I were you I'd build a very corporate looking mainstream web design site with ridiculously high prices on it, just in case someone wants to pay you for the services and then go to my bank and apply for a merchant account for my company.

DomFromParis · 06-25-2003, 01:05 PM

Visa rules may be different according to the country where the processor is located

Dominique
http://www.billingfrance.net/index_eng.htm

DomFromParis · 06-25-2003, 01:09 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by danfromparis
Visa rules may be different according to the country where the processor is located

Dominique
http://www.billingfrance.net/index_eng.htm

countries in Europe (i had not finished my phrase)

PornBroker · 06-26-2003, 02:42 AM

good post Cormac.

I must have missed it first up.

tony286 · 06-26-2003, 08:11 AM

Now is not the time for our family and friends to be divisive or derisive. There are many changes coming that will affect our industry in the coming months and if we are a house divided, we are a house that will fall. If we are a house united, we will prevail and rise above it, bruised, battered but intact.

Translation help us stay in business dont leave lol. Most of the problems we all have now is because third part processors and AVS's never policed the material of their clients even if you knew it was wrong and you let clients with high charge back ratios stick around because of the fees, it was all about the money. The house is divided between those who give a shit run their businesses legally, responsibly, dont try to screw the customer are in for the long haul and those who only care about lining their pockets. As long as the lining pockets people are given the power to process we are all in trouble. Which side of the house are you on?

05-30-2003, 02:48 PM	#1
ACPay Mac Registered User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Sherman Oaks, CA Posts: 20	AC Pay and fees We came up with the idea for AC Pay to provide AC webmasters with an alternative to the several 3rd Party billers for their paysites. We wanted a service that would expand our market penetration to attract non AC webmasters into the AC line of products. The business was built based on certain assumptions, one of which was that by having the business in the EU and complying with all the Card Association rules there, we could avoid the IPSP rules and gain a competitive advantage which we would pass on to the webmasters. I have to be cautious here because, as you all well know, our industry is quite competitive and as many detractors as supporters read these boards. In an effort to be forthcoming, we have to keep in mind that, as a business, our competitive edge can be diminished or lost to those who would take every advantage to take it away because of the information we provide. That being said, the model was intentionally designed as an access management service. In anticipation of an even broader reach of the Association Rules, we formed two AC Pay entities, one in the UK and one here in the US. Visa USA rules, at the time, had not caught up with EU region and, even to this day, no IPSP registration fees are required. That does not mean that they will not be in the future. We made a marketing push that fees would not be charged because they were not going to be. As we have seen in the past, the industry quickly follows our lead and quite a few of our competitors made the switch to the EU model. And, as we have seen, some of those who made the switch took with them some of the same business practices that caused the Card Associations to create all the rules in the first place. Again, I want to be very careful here. I am not identifying any one particular company because I can?t. All I can say is that that the Banks with which we deal have expressed to us concerns that some of the merchants that followed in our foot steps have caused some problems. I personally think and feel that our main competitors are in this business for the long haul as are we and, as such, have good business practices to keep the model going. Some don?t and that?s a problem for the industry as a whole. That all being said, we went into this ?no fees? push in good faith and with every intention of having that be our competitive edge. The problems followed the industry and a few bad apples (don?t know which ones) spoiled the barrel. The Banks and the Card Associations reacted, understandably, and those of us who are ?good apples? and there are a number of us, have to pay the price for those who are not. The EU region now requires registration but no fees AS OF YET. So, we have to do all the work and go through all the hassle and paperwork of registering the clients. It takes time and it requires a commitment on the part of the client as well. Perhaps inartfully spoken, but the cost and time really does make a difference from our perspective and to the bottom line. So, here is the first issue, the $350 fee. It will not be charged to anyone who is already in the system. New clients that sign up, after June 30th, in the EU region will be charged to cover the costs. If and when the EU region starts charging the fees to pass on, we will credit the $350 for anyone who has paid. Until that happens, anyone who has paid the fee will get it back from us once they make $3000 in sales. The second issue, US clients have to pay the $750 fee that goes to our processor. There is a possibility that the fee can be waived for clients who have already signed up through another processor. We are trying to get this clarified and confirmed through our bank. In the meantime, anyone who pays the fee will get it back from us from future processing based on volume criteria which we are working on right now. You can pay the fee with your Visa or Master Card The third issue is that we have a US processor for our US clients? transactions and we are adding another in about two weeks. Fourth, we have a US presence, an EU presence and a Latin Region presence. I would be more than happy to discuss, offline, with anyone, regional requirements of which I am aware. Fifth, when we launched AC Pay, we had every intention of maintaining the competitive advantage of ?no fees? but we can?t. This all started two weeks ago exactly. We have been scrambling and working and brainstorming ever since to keep the product competitive and profitable. Our decisions did not come without a lot of soul searching. I take responsibility for not preparing my people for the fire storm of reaction. It happened quickly and in response to forces well beyond our control. Our forte is anticipating industry changes and proactively adapting to what we know is coming. The industry moved quickly on this and we moved quickly as well. Sixth, any client who does not want to process Visa may elect not to and avoid the fees altogether. Seventh, if you are a US client, not previously registered with another processor, have rebills in the system and you chose not to register through AC Pay, email me. Eighth, we are in the process of adding several alternative pay models, namely ACH and EU Debit which will be up by July 5th. We are also writing the specs to integrate Xmoola and Web900. They will be on shortly after that. I am personally concerned with the tone and tenor of the posts. All of us are part of the industry; all of us make our livings from this industry. I take it very seriously. I take it personally. I take blame for the bad and I share credit for the good. But I do not voice my criticism with a mean streak. I am not motivated by jealousy or ego. I am not the messenger of those who are. Now is not the time for our family and friends to be divisive or derisive. There are many changes coming that will affect our industry in the coming months and if we are a house divided, we are a house that will fall. If we are a house united, we will prevail and rise above it, bruised, battered but intact. AC Cormac __________________ ------------------------------- AC Pay™ Payment processing and customer service for your paysite. https://clients.acpay.com/ -------------------------------

05-30-2003, 03:05 PM	#3
Tipsy Confirmed User Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: See sig Posts: 6,989	Now that makes a little more sense. Personal opinion is that you really do only have yourselves to blame for any bashing by issuing a VERY badly worded e-mail with little or no further explaination and then letting someone loose on the boards with really no idea at all, simply making matters far worse. Read the initial e-mail and your reps initial posts properly and it's easy to see why anybody with half a brain would have major concerns and of course these will be voiced on boards. It's one of the things they are there for. Post informed information that begins to make sense (as above) and you'll find far less people willing to jump on the bashing bandwagon. __________________ Ignorance is never bliss.

05-30-2003, 04:15 PM	#4
p00p Confirmed User Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: CanaDUH Posts: 5,125	What is your solution/suggestion(s) for Canadian customers? __________________ ICQ: 316365783 <a href="http://www.hostultra.com/~p00p" target="_blank">TEST</a>

05-30-2003, 04:48 PM	#6
ACPay Mac Registered User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Sherman Oaks, CA Posts: 20	p00p, Rather than shoot off an off-the-cuff response on a Friday evening, I'll get back to you early next week on that, after I've had a chance to discuss it with our Banking department, who will, in turn, have discussed it with any necessary third parties, such as our banks. Cormac __________________ ------------------------------- AC Pay™ Payment processing and customer service for your paysite. https://clients.acpay.com/ -------------------------------

05-30-2003, 09:22 PM	#10
Va2k I’m still alive barley. Industry Role: Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Va Posts: 10,060	Well nice fucking post, I will be the first to say I am sorry for running my hand if WHAT mac says is true. I did go with epoch/ibill and Ccbill as a 3rd back up for www.virginiaamateurs.com and left the dot net one with acpay for the webmasters that have 1000's of galleries out there. Hope this all works out, I might of jumped the gun cause of the way ccbill stole YES STOLE my rebills from me with so short FUCKING notice shrugs Its doggie dog world eh? TOM __________________

05-30-2003, 02:51 PM	#2
Pipecrew Master of Gfy.com Industry Role: Join Date: Feb 2002 Posts: 14,887	good post

05-30-2003, 09:40 PM	#13
gothweb Confirmed User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Back in the USSA Posts: 8,849	I think this shows that, medium- to long-term, there just isn't a way around the fees and so forth. Still, stand up honest statement from AC Pay. 7.5/10 __________________ Photos by Ian X.: Distinctive photos of goth babes. Blood Money:Your traffic, my sites, our money. MojoHost: Still the best.

05-30-2003, 10:22 PM	#17
sexydave Registered User Industry Role: Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Montreal, Qc Posts: 37	Well, as i was thinking, ACPay like others must follow the Visa's rules now... But i got 2-3 thing in mind : Did the fee apply the all clients account (adult & non-adult business) ? We're running a webdesign company here in Canada, so we don't have recurring payment and chargeBack. We're doing both domain activity (Adult & corporate). Do we'll have to pay the fee? I can understand the Visa Rules who's tired of having chargeback because of paysites that having recurring payments. But what happen to those who use 3third party CC processor to get paid for services in general?? I already contact ACPay to offer their payment method 6 month ago but they told me that they can't setup account to have custom amount payment. So, in a way, they told us they use exclusively subscription methods instead of offering both methods (subscription AND customs)... We still surfing the net to find the best CC processor (at least for a short time) that could offer custom amount WITHOUT needed merchant account... I'll post some if i fund good ones. Regards, __________________ SexyDave, webmaster Webdesign company : CyberErotixxx

06-25-2003, 01:05 PM	#22
DomFromParis Registered User Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Paris Posts: 11	Visa rules may be different according to the country where the processor is located Dominique http://www.billingfrance.net/index_eng.htm

06-26-2003, 02:42 AM	#24
PornBroker Confirmed User Join Date: Sep 2002 Posts: 686	good post Cormac. I must have missed it first up. __________________ please allow me to introduce myself, I'm a man of wealth and taste...I've been around for a long long year stolen many man's soul and faith...I was around when jesus christ had his moment of doubt and pain...made damn sure that pilate washed his hands and sealed his fate...pleased to meet you hope you guess my name...but's what's puzzling you is the nature of my game...

06-26-2003, 08:11 AM	#25
tony286 lurker Industry Role: Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: atlanta Posts: 57,021	Now is not the time for our family and friends to be divisive or derisive. There are many changes coming that will affect our industry in the coming months and if we are a house divided, we are a house that will fall. If we are a house united, we will prevail and rise above it, bruised, battered but intact. Translation help us stay in business dont leave lol. Most of the problems we all have now is because third part processors and AVS's never policed the material of their clients even if you knew it was wrong and you let clients with high charge back ratios stick around because of the fees, it was all about the money. The house is divided between those who give a shit run their businesses legally, responsibly, dont try to screw the customer are in for the long haul and those who only care about lining their pockets. As long as the lining pockets people are given the power to process we are all in trouble. Which side of the house are you on?