conspiracy nuts?? conspiracy would be covert. the UN's anti-semitism has been in the open. no conspiracy, just look at their record. the UN has a long history of holding double standards, holding Israel to one standard and the arab world to another.

The Palestinians *at that time* considered it "their land". Plain and simple. Not talking about country or anything, just what they considered "their land". That was given away.

Many of you guys really dont understand much of this.

Across the world, from Former Yugoslavia, Chechnya, Israel, Kashmir, etc. One thing is in common. The islamic radicals in each area are for territorial aggression.

The USA decided to hand a part of Yugoslavia to this group, one year later, the radicals were working a new movement to take over northern Macedonia too. No matter how much you give these islamic organizations, they will continue to seek more land and control.

They will do it by manipulating the media. Since many of them believe in dying for the their religion, they will kill their own children, walk outside, and say the opressor had done this. Whether they blame the IDF, Yugoslav military, Russian military, or whomever... the blame will always be made in order to make the opposite side look worse then it is. These islamic groups will hide in houses of innocent islamic people, waiting for a missile or raids to occur. Once this initiates, they will run outside and show all the innocent people that were killed in effort to rally support for their group. Never the less, the tactics of these horrible men are new and very believable to the blind eyes.

But we must understand that the USA aren't angels themselves. They have continuously contradicted their policies around the world. From a 76 day bombing campaign in Kosovo to irregular support for Russian military in Chechnya, both these situations are much more justified then any other part of the world, yet the USA had taken the opposite side. It looks like the day of September 11th, 2001 has finally changed their policy and let them recognize that if this insurgance is not taken care of in the near future, we will be dealing with much greater problems in the future.

It's important to note that many of the nations in this world aren't happy with the USA because of their continued contradictions, and each one of you must understand this.

You're 100% right.

Wow sherlock. Thats a great idea. Why didn't Israel think about it? wow.

That remark exposes you to what you stad for.
You win zero respect and zero validity for your thought imho.
This remark is similar to PunkWorld's "Better yet, why not put them in camps? Some watchtowers, german shepherds, barbed wire... "
I would not speak if all I had to spread around is hatered. As to your article you quoted - Its been long since I have seen so distorted, twisted and biased article. To start with - the security fence is hardly a new thing. Its been discussed for more than 3 years. Its not Sharon's idea. That article has ZERO value if only for the lack of sense of reality.

LOL....they weren't even known as Palestinians yet. At that time they were still Arabs.

Here's a little history lesson.....

The State of Israel

After the British brutally turned away Holocaust survivors from Israel, the UN voted to partition the land.

The British broke promise after promise to the Jews while they created new Arab countries out of the land of the former Ottoman Empire. In addition, because of Arab revolts and pressure, the British even barred entry to the land of Israel to Jews fleeing the Holocaust. (See Part 64.)

Even when the full scope of the Holocaust was known, and thousands of Holocaust survivors were stranded in refugee camps (DP camps), the British refused to relent.


One of the most egregious of the British actions involved the refugee ship, Exodus.

One of the most egregious of the British actions involved the refugee ship, Exodus, which the Royal Navy intercepted in 1947 in the Mediterranean Sea with 4,500 Jews aboard. The ship was brought into Haifa port under British escort; there the Holocaust survivors were forcibly transferred to another ship and returned back to Germany via France.

Abba Eban, who was then the Jewish liason to a special UN committee -- called Special Commmitte On Palestine or UNSCOP -- persuaded four UN representatives to go to Haifa to witness the brutality of the British against the Jews.

Historian Martin Gilbert includes Eban's account of what happened there in Israel: A History (p. 145):


"[In Haifa] the four members watched a 'gruesome operation.' The Jewish refugees had decided 'not to accept banishment with docility. If anyone had wanted to know what Churchill meant by a "squalid war," he would have found out by watching British soldier using rifle butts, hose pipes and tear gas against the survivors of the death camps. Men, women and children were forcibly taken off to prison ships, locked in cages below decks and set out of Palestine waters.'

"When the four members of UNSCOP came back to Jerusalem, Eban recalled, 'they were pale with shock. I could see that they were pre-occupied with one point alone: if this was the only way that the British Mandate could continue, it would be better not to continue it at all.'"


UN PARTITION OF PALESTINE

The British also wanted out of the problem. They had 100,000 soldiers/police trying to maintain control with a total population of about 600,000 Jews and 1.2 million Arabs. (Interestingly, they had the same size force controlling India with a population of over 350 million!)

And so it came to pass that the British turned the matter over to the UN which decided to end the British Mandate over what was left of "Palestine" (after the creation of the country of Jordan) and to divide the remaining land among the Arabs and Jews. The proposal called for the Jews to get:

a narrow strip of land along the Mediterranean coast, including Tel Aviv and Haifa

a piece of land surrounding the Kineret (Sea of Galilee), including the Golan Heights

a large piece in the south, which was the uninhabitable Negev Desert
The Arabs were to get:

the Gaza Strip

a chunk of the north, including the city of Tzfat (Safed) and western Galilee

the entire West Bank of the River Jordan and the hills of Judea and Samaria
Jerusalem was to be under international control.

On November 29, 1947, the United Nations voted for this partition plan. Of those voting, 33 nations voted yes, including USA and USSR; 13 mostly-Arab nations voted no; 11 nations abstained.

Hard-hearted to the end, the British did not vote yes; they abstained.

As disappointed as the Jews were with the portion allotted for the Jewish state, they felt that something was better than nothing after all the waiting and the pain.

However, the Arabs, always maximalist in their demands, rejected the UN resolution. The next day Arab rioting began, and two weeks later soldiers from surrounding Arab countries began arriving into Palestine.

The British, happy to be out of the situation, were packing up to go and turned their backs on what was going on. Writes David Ben Gurion in his Israel: A Personal History (p. 65):


"The British did not lift a finger to stop this military invasion. They also refused to cooperate with the UN committee charged with supervising implementation of the General Assembly resolution. At the same time, the Arabs living in the district destined to become part of the Jewish state began evacuating their homes and moving to the Arab states neighboring Palestine at the orders of the Arab High Committee."

In the midst of confusion, the rioting continued with almost 1,000 Jews murdered by Arabs in the ensuing four months.

One of the worst incidents occurred on April 13, 1948. A convoy of 70 doctors and nurses making their way to Hadassah Hospital on Mount Scopus was ambushed by Arabs. This happened 200 yards of a British police station. After a seven-hour shoot-out, during which the British did nothing, all the doctors and nurses were killed. Afterwards, the Arabs mutilated their bodies.

JERUSALEM UNDER SIEGE

In all of this, the British encouraged the King of Jordan, Abdullah, to invade and annex the Arab sections to his kingdom. To Abdullah this was not enough. He wanted Jerusalem too.

As a result Jerusalem came under siege.

The focus of the struggle during April and May 1948 was the road to Jerusalem which passes through the mountains. The vehicles on that road are completely exposed to gunmen up above. It was on this road that all supplies to the Jews of the city had to come. But they could not get through.


The focus of the struggle during April and May 1948 was the road to Jerusalem.

Hunger reigned. The residents of the Jewish Quarter of the Old City were completely cut off.

And then an amazing incident happened. A young Yemenite Jew, who was not known for his shooting skills, almost accidentally killed three Arab men in the hills. One of these men was the Arab leader, Abdul Khader el Husseini. Demoralized, the Arab forces abandoned their positions to attend his funeral.

As a result a huge convoy of 250 trucks of food was able to re-supply the city. Writes Berel Wein in Triumph of Survival (p. 397):


"[On Shabbat, April 17, 1948] Jews left their synagogues and, with their prayer shawls still draping their shoulders, helped unload the convoy. The siege of Jerusalem was broken for the moment. The Arabs, however, mounted a strong counter-attack, and by the end of April once again cut the Jerusalem road... for the next seven weeks Jewish Jerusalem was isolated."

A NEW STATE IS BORN

The official date given by the United Nations in their partition vote for the creation of the two new entities was May 15th, 1948.

Thus, May 14th was to be the last day of the British Mandate. At 4 p.m., the British lowered their flag and immediately the Jews raised their own.

It was a flag designed in 1897 by the First Zionist Congress. It was white (the color of newness and purity), and it had two blue stripes (the color of heaven) like the stripes of a tallit, the prayer shawl, which symbolized the transmission of Jewish tradition. In its center was the Star of David.

Thus on May 14, 1948 at 4:00 p.m., Hay Iyar, the 5th of Iyar, Israel declared itself a state.

After 2,000 years, the land of Israel was once more in the hands of the Jews.

David Ben Gurion read the Declaration of Independence over the radio:


"The Land of Israel was the birthplace of the Jewish people. Here the spiritual, religious and national identity was formed. Here they achieved independence and created a culture of national and universal significance. Here they wrote and gave the Bible to the world...

"Exiled from Palestine, the Jewish people remained faithful to it in all the countries of the dispersion, never ceasing to pray and hope for their return and restoration of their national freedom.

"Accordingly we, the members of the National Council met together in solemn assembly today and by virtue of the natural and historic right of the Jewish people and with the support of the resolution of the General of the United Nations, hereby proclaim the establishment of the Jewish state in Palestine to be called Israel...

"We offer peace and amity to all neighboring states and their peoples and invite them to cooperate with the independent Jewish nation for the common good of all...

"With trust in the Rock of Israel, we set our hands to this declaration at this session of the Provisional State Council in the city of Tel Aviv on Sabbath Eve, 5th Iyar 5708, 14th day of May 1948."


(Note that the Declaration of Independence of Israel -- unlike the American Declaration of Independence -- does not mention God. This is because the hard-line secularists that dominated the Jewish Agency opposed any such thing. "Rock of Israel" became a compromise.)

Everyone was dancing in the streets. But not for long.

Almost immediately five Arab countries declared war and Egypt bombed Tel Aviv.

LMAO

When Jews began to immigrate to Palestine in large numbers in 1882, fewer than 250,000 Arabs lived there, and the majority of them were not long time residents but relatively recent arrivals. Palestine was never an exclusively Arab country, although Arabic gradually became the language of the majority of the population after the Muslim invasions of the 7th century.


No independent Arab or Palestinian state ever existed in Palestine. In fact, Palestine is never explicitly mentioned in the Koran, rather it is called "the holy land" (al?Arad al?Mugaddash).

Palestinian Arabs never viewed themselves as having a separate identity. When the First Congress of Muslim and Christian Associations met in Jerusalem in February 1919 to choose Palestinian representatives for the Paris Peace Conference, the following resolution was adopted: "We consider Palestine as part of Arab Syria, as it has never been separated from it at any time. We are connected with it by national, religious, linguistic, natural, economic and geographical bonds."

What planet do you live on? Israel "left the palestinians alone" for nearly their entire existence. There were no occupied territories before 1967, and actually by UN standards the territories don't meet UN definition. Who are they being occupied from? There's never been an arab country called Palestine. There was never a sovereign nation.

How about some more Jewish history.

Semitic people first settled caanan in 1800BCE. David ruled Jerusalem in 1000BCE. They lost it in 750BCE to the Assyrians, never to rule again. The end.

That is the full extent of Jewish "rule" over the land they claim is theirs. Israel today is no more the Jews rightful land than Florida is the property of the Seminole.

LOL....

Palestine has never existed as an autonomous Arab state. So what's your point? It is Israel today. Are you suggesting that Israel doesn't even have the right to live in Israel proper.

The occupied/disputed territories once belonged to Jordan. Why doesn't Jordan want it back? Don't they have the right to claim the disputed territories? Do you know why they don't? 1) They don't want the Palestinians. 2) Few arabs actually want a resolution to arab-israeli conflict. They need a scapegoat to blame all their countries problems and deflect them from their own.

You catch on quick :winkwink:

Give the fuckers 1/2 of S. Dakota. That'll solve the middle east problems.

You seem to be entirely missing the point. You talk about how they weren't called Palestinians yet, and how they had no "national identity". You talk about how Israel was formed, and how the Jewish people had waited for that for many hundreds of years. You talk about how the land wasn't exclusively arab and you talk about religious claims.

Now, here is what I was, and am, saying: The Palestinians (as we call them now) had "their land" taken away. Now, what I specifically mean with this are the hundreds of thousands of Palestinians that were driven out of their villages and the land they lived on by the Israelian state.

Got it?

I do not care about national identity, I do not care what the Torah says, I do not care about exclusivity of the land, I do not care about what they were called back then.

I am talking about people living in place A, and place A being given to other people. Got it?

Imagine you have a nice little farm. Now, someone declares your farm a part of another nation, and you are forced to move away. "Your land" is being taken away. Plain and simple, like I said.

Now, ofcourse, you will come up with a bunch of propaganda, but these are facts.

You are talking nonsense. From 1948 onward, Palestinian villages were destroyed, Palestinian agriculture was destroyed, and Israelis confiscated land from Palestinians. The Palestinians tried to do exactly the same, that I will admit - although they were a lot less succesful.

Edit: And about the sovereign nation stuff: I am not talking about that, like I said before.

You will never get it will you? My point of explaining the history of national identity is that it establishes context. People foolishly think that Palestinian Arab people are some ancient people that have lived in Palestine/Israel for thousands of years as Palestinians.

When you make this mistake, then obviously you will think that the land belongs to the Palestinian Arabs, when the FACTS ARE:

Arabs began moving in for 2 reasons:

1) The Jews made this previously inhospitable land into something.

2) The Arabs saw the waves of Jewish immigration as a threat to Islam and moved more Arabs into the area illegally. In 1922 the British Governor of the Sinai noted that "illegal immigration was not only going on from the Sinai, but also from Transjordan and Syria."

Why couldn't they cohabitate? The Jews were willing to, but throughout every generation Jews have been persecuted. Why can't you deal with the fact that the Jews have a very small piece of land called Israel? Islam didn't even come into existence until the 7th century, yet Muslims control the entire Middle East.

Hard to believe, but Islam was once considered the preeminent culture. And it's decline is one of the key factors behind Arab contempt for the west.

The conflict ( non-partisan vue and non-argumentative.
The article also develops possible solutions and so on. If your mind is closed, then don't read and stay in your ignorance, whatever " side" you are on....

---------------------
Quote:

What is the conflict about?
Both sides claim land in Israel, the West Bank and Gaza Strip. Moderates suggest splitting the territory while extremists want it all. There have been three major Arab-Israeli wars since 1947 when the UN proposed dividing the former British mandate of Palestine between its Jewish and Arab populations with Jerusalem as an "international" city (the Arabs rejected the plan). During each war Israel has extended its boundaries. After the second war - in 1967 - Israel took the West Bank from Jordan and the Gaza Strip from Egypt and began an illegal programme of settlement building in the now occupied territories.

Significantly these were areas that Palestinian refugees had fled to in 1948. The 1967 war had defended Israel against combined Arab armies massed on its borders when its existence appeared to be under threat, but also put a significant Arab population under Israeli rule (in addition to its own Arab citizens). Its rage was demonstrated in the 1980s intifada against Israeli occupation and continues to feed into the violence. Much of the economic life of the West Bank and Gaza has been suspended since September 2000, exacerbating unemployment and poverty as many Palestinians are prevented from going to their jobs in Israel.

The conflict has developed its own logic of hate and anger that perpetuates the killing. On the Israeli side many fear the Palestinians want to drive them into the sea. Many Palestinians feel besieged by Israel and fear the Jewish state will, if not annex the West Bank and Gaza, deny the right of an economically and politically viable Palestinian state to exist.

How did the present situation develop?
The Palestinian uprising erupted in September 2000 after peace talks between the Palestinian Authority and Israel broke down over the future status of Jerusalem. But what started as rioting in the aftermath of a visit by Mr Sharon, then the opposition leader, to a contested religious site, soon spiralled into killing that has to date claimed more than 2,500 lives - the vast majority on the Palestinian side.

The months before Israel's first military incursion to the West Bank had seen an increasing use of suicide attacks by militant Palestinian groups such as Islamic Jihad, Hamas and the al-Aqsa brigades. For its part Israel used helicopter gunships to assassinate militant leaders, put its tanks and armoured bulldozers in Palestinian towns and raided refugee camps. Civilians died on both sides.

Operation Defensive Shield - as the campaign was called - then began on March 29 with a stated aim to dismantle the "terrorist infrastructure" in the Palestinian territories through the confinement of Mr Arafat to the basement of his Ramallah headquaters and the occupation of the other major Palestinian towns. Thousands of Palestinian men were arrested as the Israeli army hunted down - Palestinians allege summarily executed - militant fighters and Mr Arafat's policemen.

Six weeks later the Israeli army pulled out, only to re-enter and begin its second incursion within a month.

---------------------------
End of quote


http://www.guardian.co.uk/theissues/...679445,00.html

A person who calles Jews or Israelis Fucken Zionists and hints that they will be good concentration camp builders is NOT the right person to talk about being non-biased.
:2 cents:

No, I called Zionist_dave555add a zionist.... read all.




quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by dav555add


The arabs are responsible, they are the cancer of this planet.


There is only one solution to avoid or to have avoided this kind of terrorist attack;
Deport all arabs, forbid entry in the US of all arabs.
But obviously no President will have the balls to take such a drastic measure...


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

You are sooooooo naive if you think that if Israel ceased to exist beginning tomorrow then all of a sudden our problems in the middle east would go away.

I don't even know a single Arab that shares that viewpoint. Their gripes against the West go far deeper than the Arab-Israeli conflict. Have you noticed that of the 24 trouble conflicts going on in the world today, 21 are perpetuated by Arabs.

Ok, let's examine.....

Iraq-Iran War......Israel's fault
Lebanese civil war......Israel's fault
Iraqi invasion of Kuwait......Israel's fault
Iraqi slaughter of Kurds....Israel's fault
Sudanese Muslims slaughter of Christians....Israel's fault
Absence of democracy in Arab countries....Israel's fault
Gov't controlled media in Arab countries....Israel's fault
1972 Jordanian slaughter of 3000 Palestinians over 3 days......Israel's fault
Balkans......Israel's fault


bahahahaha

Heh. I object. There is a wall around Israel preventing me from going freely to any country I want without authorization. And that is WITHOUT me wanting to kill anyone :(
Why do they stop me? Why do they put me in a prison. Isn't it my right to go to the US/UK/Australia/Canada/France/Germany/Holland/... whenever I want? And if I want to bomb some busses - who are they to stop me? What is this prison :(

In case anyone wonders where all the cut & paste pro-zionist propoganda is coming from...

http://www.middleeastfacts.com/Artic...ianpeople.html

WTF.....

Zionism....

Do you even know what Zionism means?

"Zionism is a Jewish movement that arose in the late 19th century in response to growing anti-Semitism and sought to reestablish a Jewish homeland in Palestine. Modern Zionism is concerned with the support and development of the state of Israel."


There is absolutely nothing wrong with Zionism. Of course, thanks to the UN equating Zionism with Racism the meaning of the word has changed in the eyes of many.

Wow... what a bunch of crap. This is the last paragraph of the first page:

"On second thought, it may be unfair to compare Palestine to Disneyland. After all, Disneyland really exists. "

Level of Bush intellect

Look at the stament of Dave555add and it matches exactly your definition.
No point in arguing here.

1. Why do you use the term Zionist in a supposedly negative context? Do you know what Zionism is? What do you think is negative about it?
2. You live in an hypothetical world dude. No wonder your views are so twisted and full of hatered. "Israel is going the other way" MUHAHA. Can it be because the people on the other side of the border are commited to destroy Israel?
3. No. he won't. I suspect its because he's got his priorities straight and knows the difference between right and wrogn.

No well informed person in the world suggests that silly concept.
Israel can not leave the Palestinians alone because the Palestinians don't want it. They will need Israel to help them build their economy. If you don't know that to be a fact you don't know much. No need to argue with me on that.

interesting site....while you're at it, why don't you check out...

honestreporting.com
israelinsider.com
factsandlogic.org

Huh? No it doesn't match MY definition or the true definition of Zionism. His view that "arabs are a cancer" blah, blah, blah, has nothing to do with Zionism. That's his opinion. I consider myself a Zionist and I don't share his view that "arabs are a cancer". IMO, it's a racist statement.

The problem with your views, your questions and many of the threads on this and other boards - is that you ask a question about such a complicated and diversifies question in one sentence and expect a good answer.
If you don't see differences about the two issues - you miss alot that can only be filled by learning and thinking.

In a perfect world - the two walls are bad. Walls are bad. Love and peave. Drugs and sex. OK? That is in a perfect world.

newsFlash: Our world is not perfect.

The one wall was a deviding between the same people cause by a war.
Palestinan/Israeli wall is a seperation that in principal both sides have no objection with.
You seem to be the only one (with that dumb reported/writer) who thinks it is so wrong. Its not like the wall will stop the hundrands of thousands of palestinian hikers and travellers from going on a vacation on the cities of Israel.

So then, what's the point of it?

That was the clinton offer. Many palestinians shut the fuck up back then... It didn't prevent their dictator to reject it and start a terror campaign on Israel.
Check your facts. Palestinians are NOT living in a democracy.
If you only realized you are totally clueless and unaware of the facts you might change your opinion.
(But you will probably agrue and flame at me bacsuse its easier than realizing you are wrong)

Almost all leaders of the western world though it was overwhelmingly generous and unbelievable offer. You may think differently since its a democracy. But realize that the majority of people in the world would consider giving the palestinians a free country and help to build it over a sheer 100% of the territories pending border corections INCLUDING east Jerusalem - to be a very fair offer.

Dont take board discussions too seriously dude.
As a matter of fact you do hold several antisematic views. If you reconnize it you will be better of - don't reject me for pointing out the obvious.

Your hate to "Zionists" is antisematic - you didn't base it on research of the subject
Your hinting that Jews are good concentration camp builders - is antisematic.

You're easy acceptance of "retaliation" of terror on israel is NOT antisematic. Its just pure hatered and should be re-thought of by you. You seem to hate the violence Israel imposes in your opinion but easy to accept the terror imposed on Israeli civilians.

Exactly!



--------------------------------
BTW...., Punk (world), where did all the billions in aid to Palestine from Europe and the States go? Arafat's coffers.

If you believe so much in the Palestinians, why don't you fight for their democracy by securing leadership that isn't corrupt.

How is it that you people are so naive when it comes to Arab politics? You seem to think that if you succomb to Arabs' maximlist desires that they'll be happy. Learn history! They've never been content. If your goal is the total annhilation of Israel, are you going to be happy with anything short of that? And is that reasonable?

You seem not to be able to read the whole post.

When you quote:

" I suspect him to be of of them...", it wasn't one of the Jews;
it was " one of the maroccans jews" from the post were I stated that I don't like arabs .... You really have a persecution phobia..

1. No need to remember things that are not based on reality. IDF never strikes the collective. IDF never targets civilians. IDF never has an intent to harm innocent people. You need to recheck your facts.
2. UN created a security zone after Israel withdrew from Lebanon. How effective were they there?? ha??? Not only lebanon is a new source of terror on Israel where the UN does NOTHING ... they also have the fucken balls to take video films of the terrorists kidnapping Israeli soldoers and do nothing to stop it when the terrorists move through the UN area. Thats the UN security zone for you.
Think about that man.

I wouldn't jump to the conclusion that you are an anti-semite, and I think that calling you a Nazi is reprehensible, but I do concur with XXXManager that you do hold some views that are anti-Semitic.

Likewise, someone that has black or hispanic friends and isn't a racist per se can still be prejudiced, meaning they still might hold prejudicial views about blacks or hispanics.

Agrre on that. I don't think Arafat can represent anymore a serious voice for the Palestinians. He is even contested by hius own people.

But it is not to others to decide that, but to the palestinians and they are in the process of doing so.

Unless yoy go the BUSH way, and remove and occupy any country that doesn't share your point of vue....

Diner is waiting....

Your fucking right. Like it or not, while in Florida, if I saw a group of black kids on a corner street, I had a bad feeling that I didn't have if they wwere white.

I know it is wriong, but it is not controlable.

Dinner's waiting....you fucken pussy. What a cop out! :winkwink: just kidding...

In all seriousness, I understand what you are saying, but it's easier said than done. Every person should have the right to live free, but when you live under an oppressive dictator, it's not always that easy to get rid of them. If the west can help alleviate suffering, and deposing a corrupt leader is the only possible means, then IMHO we are justified. Look at all the deaths in Africa...all the genocide that has occured as we have just sat idly by.

That is a horrible thing.

The point is - its aimed to stop the terrorists from useing a so very opened (today) border.
Less terror in Israel will be a good thing for the Palestinians as well. Understand that. Israel is not seeking to destroy the palestinian people.

I for one can testify- I gain no pleasure from seing an innocent palestinian getting killed. I hate to see that. I have to be in a place where my brothers and sisters have to pull a trigger towards a human being. I also know that there is no choice for me but to live in my own country and promote its security. I can not accept as a society beign terrorized without retaliation over a very long period of time. Israel has tried holding back many times and many times did the "right" think and got people killed for that. Everyone mentions the Rabin days as the good old days of peace making...
How ignorant can one be to realize so many Israelis were killed under the orders of Arafat during these peace talks... yes - it was time of peace talks that lead to a later Barak agreement - where Israel has tried again and again to not retaliate the terror in its streets an the so many Israelis dying in the streets and busses - just so we can keep talking about peace. We did that cause we wanted peace so much. We didn't want to wake up to realize the opponent was an enemy killing us (or doing nothing to prevent others on his side from that). YES - these are the good old Rabi days. Shocking - right? But true.
We are fully awake now. We still want peace and will still sacrifice our people for that - but when we realize the other side wants the same as us. Untill then we MUST protect ourselves and I assure you - we WILL protect ourselves. With ot with out the "world's" agreement.

"WE" for one do NOT need the popular vote to tell us what is the right thing to do.

Ok, time to get started replying to all the disinformation.


First of all, the billions of aid to the Palestinians?
I remember quite clearly that my country (the Netherlands) funded a large infrastructure project for the Palestinians. Many millions went into it. Then, in a retaliatory strike, Israel destroyed it. Why? I guess finding the guilty and punishing those isn't nearly as satisfying as destroying infrastructure that might actually provide jobs and income.

But, aside from that, you seem to have the idea that I have some odd belief in the Palestinians. Let me assure you that I have as little belief in the Palestinians as I have in the Israeli's, the Afghans, the Chinese, the Americans, the Africans, the Europeans and the rest of the world. The human race consists mainly of fuckups, and that's simply something we have to deal with. However, I do not believe arabs are any worse than other people. (although their religion most definitely is rather backward)

Now, about the corruption over there: since when does corruption on the part of the leaders of people justify killing, oppressing or imprisoning those people? Sure, it should have some major consequences (you keep that leader? then you'll get no money from us), but it does not justify actions against those people themselves.

Semitism: a group of Semitic-speaking peoples of the Near East and northern Africa, including the Arabs, Arameans, Babylonians, Carthaginians, Ethiopians, Hebrews, and Phoenicians.
Being anti-arabs is also being anti-semitic. So, you are an anti-semite as well?

Palestinians are ruled with iron fist twice. Once from Israel and the worst one is from Arafat.
He is a dictator. He rules them with Fear, Hatered and intimidation.
He is NOT an elected leader - since for democracy you need opposition or atleast another candidate (not one the first leader chooses).
Planestinians are in the SAME position Iraqis are - in that, your analogy is correct. They can NOT free themselves as easily as you would want.
You are saying we should wait till them? Then how can you justify your opposition of Israel trying to "fence" them out in the mean time and trying to protect themselves.

1. Villages are destroyed. Infrastructure is destroyed. Terrorists are targetted without consideration for other civilian casualties.
2. Did I mention that I'm a big proponent of the UN taking a harder line and actually taking out those not co-operating? I'm not talking about the bitch-ass UN we have today, since the UN as it is right now won't do shit about anything.

I can't believe you are dutch. Dutch people are generally much better informed than you are. My dad used to live there.


I love your argument about Semitism. Yes, a semite relates to language, as in Semitic-speaking peoples. But, when a person uses the term anti-Semitic, they mean anti-Jewish. It's semantics.

You remind me of this Arab leader who said that all Jews should be killed, and later when he was accused of being anti-Semitic, he said there is no way he could be anti-Semitic, because he is a Semite. Fine, replace anti-Jewish with anti-Semitism, but in general when someone uses the term anti-Semite, they are refering to someone who is prejudiced against Jews.


And, btw...I'm not anti-Arab. I very much dislike many of the governments in the Arab world, and I don't like Arabs that hate me because I'm Jewish or American, but I don't hate them. In fact, my best friend who will also be the best man in my wedding is from Afghanistan. Another one of my very close friends is Egyptian. I also had an Egyptian girlfriend 7-8 years ago, and I've spent time in Egypt and Morroco.

1. :1orglaugh :1orglaugh I agree
2. Arabs are a too diversified group.. The matter of fact is: A person who wakes up in the morning with the intention to bomb a bus with people is worse that a person who wakes up in the morning destroying a building - no matter what it is or who owns it - because this is his job. A leader trying to achieve security for his people is better than a leader who tries to seed destruction and death to force the opponent to agree to bend over.

That's odd, since over here all the media agreed on it being a big improvement with regards to other offers, but lacking in several major departments (such as the settlements I believe?) which made it 100% certain that it would not be accepted. Actually, thinking back, I do not believe that "almost all leaders of the western world though it was overwhelmingly generous and unbelievable offer". I believe most thought the Palestinians should take it, but many also had reservations with regards to certain key points.

1. No dude. Dutch people are just (in general) more calm down and peacefull and have much better access to drugs ;) I like dutch people but they are mostly uninformed as the other fella.
After all - it is so much easier to be uninformed :)

2. PunkWorld. Listen to the dude. Its been long enough that anti-semitism is jewish-oriented. No neet to be all semantical about it. Its a pontless argument. agree? yes... ok.


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OK - lets kill this thread please :helpme

2. That's individuals. However, many people in this thread have the tendency to reduce palestinians or arabs to a single homogenous group, which is ofcourse ridiculous.

Money keeps Arafat in power. The Palestinians have received $5.5 billion in international aid since 1994. Arafat has overseen almost all of the disbursements, including $600 payments to alleged terrorists and $1,500 in "tuition" for security officers, to $10 million, reportedly paid by a company controlled by friends of Arafat, for a 50-ton shipment of weapons from Iran.


[B]I agree.

Quote:

Now, about the corruption over there: since when does corruption on the part of the leaders of people justify killing, oppressing or imprisoning those people? Sure, it should have some major consequences (you keep that leader? then you'll get no money from us), but it does not justify actions against those people themselves.

I never said it does, but you seem to have this one-sided view against Israel. Israel has tried the route of appeasment for years, and it hasn't ever worked. Because in the eyes of many Arabs, an Israeli concession is an Arab victory.

I'm not going to defend everything that Israel does. But they do have a right to self-determination and they do have the right to defend themselves.

Sadly, though, all these Arab apologists actually encourage even more violence. Protesting Israel by killing civilians is wrong, plain and simple.