This place is dying - Page 2 - GoFuckYourself.com

Amputate Your Head · 07-07-2014, 03:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Porn Nerd

Ah but what was "the change"? How did it happen? Did you read a book, take a class, go to rehab, get the shit beat out of you by a gang of thugs in the park at 4 am while trying to score, was it a WOMAN, what? I am glad you found clarity, and BTW I would also say being lost and confused in your '30's/'40's is somewhat standard for many people.

I had to lose everything. And I do mean everything. Once you are free of your "stuff", both physical and mental "stuff", you begin to re-evaluate every molecule of yourself. All your decisions, all your "values", all your priorities, the works.

This took years in my case. It didn't happen overnight. It took years to piss everything away, and it took years to go through my re-evaluation. Many times I suffered losses and thought I had lost it all.... I was wrong. The way you know when you've lost it all is when you are stuffing everything you have left into a disposable plastic shopping sack and there's room left over in there for the scraps of your remaining pride. When you are silently debating whether it's better to sleep in a bush or under an overpass. When you start contemplating how squirrel cooked over an open fire should be seasoned for taste. Suddenly, that $2 million dollar house you had doesn't seem so important anymore.

No books. No rehab. No support groups. No divine intervention from god. No 12 steps.
Just a realization that, it's time to stop fucking around and grow up. No one is going to "save" me from myself, but myself.

I've rebuilt myself since then, and partially my "stuff", (only the things I now deem important), but my priorities are different now. I don't care about the pool, jetski, servants, etc anymore. I don't give a fuck what people think of me. I found out exactly who was left standing beside me when I found the bottom: No one. And THAT.... changes you.

Google Expert · 07-07-2014, 03:17 PM

obligatory pic

Klen · 07-07-2014, 03:20 PM

It is simply reflection of times - a lot of affiliates went out of business,so they either switched to mainstream or find full time job.There is like few companies which banks and those who stayed just collecting pennies mostly.Another thing what is lovely example how it went to shitter,how when sponsor is getting exposed for doing something shady,instead blacklisting that sponsor we have more and more boozos defending that program and even people calling affiliates as unnecessary thing and object of past.Till situation with affiliates is not fixed,no board will be active as it should be.

Amputate Your Head · 07-07-2014, 03:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Muad'Dib

obligatory pic

Yep. That's an example of a life in complete disarray and imbalance. Shit happens. And if it didn't happen, I made it happen. I have no regrets. All those things had to happen for me to be where I am now. It's in the past. I'm over it and have moved on. You should too.

mineistaken · 07-07-2014, 03:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Amputate Your Head

...

You posted on GFY couple months ago and you rambled about everything. Now you post too calmly, is this just for this thread or did you change that much since the last +-2 months?

12clicks · 07-07-2014, 03:32 PM

Trolls were allowed to chase away business people.
Now you have a troll board. You can't sell advertising for a troll board so you get no improvements or moderation.
It's the typical death spiral.
Swim in the pool of shit you created.

SmutHammer · 07-07-2014, 03:33 PM

If only they would make this place only for the people in the industry, But this suggestion always gets ignored...

As far as people not returning after being banned, If I was banned (I'm actually in the adult business) I would take it as I'm not wanted here and doubt I would return after the ban time was over.

Really need to get rid of the worthless trolls. 7 business posts a day would be worthwhile if you didn't have to weed through the useless threads. Don't get me wrong, Some of the stuff is good and fun. but really, Why do we need non-adult people here?

Amputate Your Head · 07-07-2014, 03:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mineistaken

You posted on GFY couple months ago and you rambled about everything. Now you post too calmly, is this just for this thread or did you change that much since the last +-2 months?

Had a very bad day that day and was venting it on the brain dead leftists. (who rightfully deserve to hear it anyway.) Normally I'm calm as a cucumber. Emotion got the best of me that day. There was a death involved, and I reached the boiling point. Happens to the best of us.

Marcus Aurelius · 07-07-2014, 03:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Amputate Your Head

Had a very bad day that day and was venting it on the brain dead leftists. (who rightfully deserve to hear it anyway.) Normally I'm calm as a cucumber. Emotion got the best of me that day. There was a death involved, and I reached the boiling point. Happens to the best of us.

You still live in Hawaii? Still doing designs?

What happened to that loser FletchXXX?

Amputate Your Head · 07-07-2014, 03:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 12clicks

Trolls were allowed to chase away business people.
Now you have a troll board. You can't sell advertising for a troll board so you get no improvements or moderation.
It's the typical death spiral.
Swim in the pool of shit you created.

At one point there used to be moderators here. What happened? Was clicking the "ban" button or the "delete" button too much effort? Or maybe they got tired of doing it for free.

The trolling here is nothing compared to other major forums out there, which are thriving.
The trolls here aren't even clever. This is minor league shit.

Here is how to resurrect this forum:
1. Put moderators back on the job.

2. Make this a pay-optional / benefits forum. Paying members get immunity from bans and access to other benefits. Non-paying posters are subject to rolling bans at any time.

3. Ban trolls intelligently. Meaning, follow some basic rules of etiquette such as, don't derail or hi-jack the thread with off-topic crap. Give posters the ability to "ban" someone from their thread only. If someone is causing a disturbance, they could be blocked from that thread by the OP. Wide-speeping bans don't work and neither does banning people for saying something un-politically correct. People need to blow off steam. Lifetime bans only kill a forum.

4. Zero tolerance for illegal posts, such as death threats, bomb threats, etc. Poster is banned, thread is deleted.

5. There needs to be a reason for people to be here. Being interesting is a good start.

Amputate Your Head · 07-07-2014, 03:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Marcus Aurelius

You still live in Hawaii? Still doing designs?

What happened to that loser FletchXXX?

No. I haven't lived in Hawaii in many, many years. Have not done graphic work since 2009. I have no idea what became of Fletch.

brassmonkey · 07-07-2014, 04:02 PM

there is shit from this morning on the front page

mineistaken · 07-07-2014, 04:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Amputate Your Head

Had a very bad day that day and was venting it on the brain dead leftists. (who rightfully deserve to hear it anyway.) Normally I'm calm as a cucumber. Emotion got the best of me that day. There was a death involved, and I reached the boiling point. Happens to the best of us.

Understood. As long as you still know that leftists are braindead

AdultKing · 07-07-2014, 04:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 12clicks

Trolls were allowed to chase away business people.
Now you have a troll board. You can't sell advertising for a troll board so you get no improvements or moderation.
It's the typical death spiral.
Swim in the pool of shit you created.

Summed up perfectly.

brassmonkey · 07-07-2014, 04:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 12clicks

Trolls were allowed to chase away business people.
Now you have a troll board. You can't sell advertising for a troll board so you get no improvements or moderation.
It's the typical death spiral.
Swim in the pool of shit you created.

CaptainHowdy · 07-07-2014, 05:58 PM

GFY will never die ...

420 · 07-07-2014, 06:53 PM

Amp has resurrected the forum. Well done old chap.

The Porn Nerd · 07-07-2014, 07:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Amputate Your Head

I had to lose everything. And I do mean everything. Once you are free of your "stuff", both physical and mental "stuff", you begin to re-evaluate every molecule of yourself. All your decisions, all your "values", all your priorities, the works.

This took years in my case. It didn't happen overnight. It took years to piss everything away, and it took years to go through my re-evaluation. Many times I suffered losses and thought I had lost it all.... I was wrong. The way you know when you've lost it all is when you are stuffing everything you have left into a disposable plastic shopping sack and there's room left over in there for the scraps of your remaining pride. When you are silently debating whether it's better to sleep in a bush or under an overpass. When you start contemplating how squirrel cooked over an open fire should be seasoned for taste. Suddenly, that $2 million dollar house you had doesn't seem so important anymore.

No books. No rehab. No support groups. No divine intervention from god. No 12 steps.
Just a realization that, it's time to stop fucking around and grow up. No one is going to "save" me from myself, but myself.

I've rebuilt myself since then, and partially my "stuff", (only the things I now deem important), but my priorities are different now. I don't care about the pool, jetski, servants, etc anymore. I don't give a fuck what people think of me. I found out exactly who was left standing beside me when I found the bottom: No one. And THAT.... changes you.

I have had rough times In my life, and probably will again, so when the shit hits the fan you really see who your friends are, and are not. If you had all that wealth before (servants, pools, etc) and don't (or didn't) have ties to people who knew you BEFORE the wealth, then yeah pretty much anyone is fucked. LOL Wealth brings out the Yes people and so-called "friends" who just want good times and a free ride.

But, in the end, whatever a person's "story" may or may not be, in the end it's exactly what you went through Amp. Most people do not change unless and until the Universe forces them to change.

Anyway good for you man.

sonofsam · 07-07-2014, 07:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Porn Nerd

I have had rough times In my life, and probably will again, so when the shit hits the fan you really see who your friends are, and are not. If you had all that wealth before (servants, pools, etc) and don't (or didn't) have ties to people who knew you BEFORE the wealth, then yeah pretty much anyone is fucked. LOL Wealth brings out the Yes people and so-called "friends" who just want good times and a free ride.

But, in the end, whatever a person's "story" may or may not be, in the end it's exactly what you went through Amp. Most people do not change unless and until the Universe forces them to change.

Anyway good for you man.

How old are you? (not an insult, I'm just curious)

johnnyloadproductions · 07-07-2014, 07:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sonofsam

How old are you? (not an insult, I'm just curious)

early or just creepin' into his mid 40's.
Inspirational in getting started again and kickin' butt!

What can be done now in the internet age and with technology, sometimes almost overnight it seems.

The Porn Nerd · 07-07-2014, 07:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sonofsam

How old are you? (not an insult, I'm just curious)

Quote:

Originally Posted by johnnyloadproductions

early or just creepin' into his mid 40's.
Inspirational in getting started again and kickin' butt!

What can be done now in the internet age and with technology, sometimes almost overnight it seems.

Oh it's all so horribly, horribly true.....40-something and counting.....!!!!!

blackmonsters · 07-07-2014, 08:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 12clicks

Trolls were allowed to chase away business people.
Now you have a troll board. You can't sell advertising for a troll board so you get no improvements or moderation.
It's the typical death spiral.
Swim in the pool of shit you created.

CurrentlySober · 07-07-2014, 09:51 PM

I'd like 2 swim in your pool of shit?

NaughtyRob · 07-07-2014, 09:56 PM

Yep, I made a thread saying as much about a week ago. I still make $ doing deals here and love it but wow its not like it was before, not even close.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Amputate Your Head

Dying?

This place is dead. Stick a fork in it.

This place used to move so fast you couldn't keep up with it.
Now... maybe 6 or 7 posts a day.

TeenCat · 07-07-2014, 11:11 PM

the problem is also so many subforums. many subforums, less posts in main forum, forum become less active and may look dead ... i had tons of forums with half millions uniques daily and this happenns everytime when more subforums added ... but, thats life, why people cry? where is business? the only one place i know is russian master x, nowhere else its alive or business related. if you want business, go to xbiz, there are few business threads, but at the end, its the same amount as here all subforums together ... why do you cry about something that is still on top and you still visit this place most of all other forums? if you want a change, start at yourself ... nothing super wrong at gfy, except subforums and crybabies

TeenCat · 07-07-2014, 11:16 PM

five years ago this forum was super alive, tons of posts and so, but five years ago you all have been making easy money by putting banner up and sales came in. gfy is maybe dying but you cant except the same amout of business like years ago when every dummy could make money in adult and you dont needed to spent that much time on promotion and so, so you had more time to spent on forums ... again, its the evolution, and gfy is still on top and still rocks!

XMaster · 07-08-2014, 12:33 AM

It would be so sad.

Klen · 07-08-2014, 12:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ed Hammer

If only they would make this place only for the people in the industry, But this suggestion always gets ignored...

As far as people not returning after being banned, If I was banned (I'm actually in the adult business) I would take it as I'm not wanted here and doubt I would return after the ban time was over.

Really need to get rid of the worthless trolls. 7 business posts a day would be worthwhile if you didn't have to weed through the useless threads. Don't get me wrong, Some of the stuff is good and fun. but really, Why do we need non-adult people here?

Yes there is indeed a lot of people which were banned for stupid reasons and they never returned back.That happens when you favor a sponsor instead active/contributing users.
And one more reason why people are missing - people dying,for example aftershockmedia and aussierebel was active and contributing members as well while they were still alive.

SomeCreep · 07-08-2014, 01:11 AM

people been saying that since 2002

EngineCash · 07-08-2014, 02:13 AM

This place is still very attractive...

DamianJ · 07-08-2014, 03:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TeenCat

nothing super wrong at gfy, except crybabies

Irony meter explosion...

TeenCat · 07-08-2014, 03:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DamianJ

Irony meter explosion...

to care and to be a crybaby is a bit difference, dont you get it?

Klen · 07-08-2014, 03:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TeenCat

to care and to be a crybaby is a bit difference, dont you get it?

Stop crying

TeenCat · 07-08-2014, 04:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by KlenTelaris

Stop crying

ok then

brain on this forum maybe dying

Klen · 07-08-2014, 05:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mineistaken

Name a few. Not sure why would they ban smart people (unless + scammers).

Will76.damagex,teencat,dirty franck,v_rocks(tho he deserved ban as he was annoying with constant old thread bumping,but at least he was useful to board)

Scott McD · 07-08-2014, 05:39 AM

Wasn't Franck around just recently ??

wehateporn · 07-08-2014, 05:43 AM

When Eric goes on holiday GFY gets a temporary mod to cover e.g. Amp or Dirty F

michael.kickass · 07-08-2014, 06:11 AM

I love this place.

mineistaken · 07-08-2014, 06:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by KlenTelaris

Will76.damagex,teencat,dirty franck,v_rocks(tho he deserved ban as he was annoying with constant old thread bumping,but at least he was useful to board)

Are you sure they were banned?
I know that DirtyF is/was not.
Teencat was, but he posted no problems.
vrocks banned???
will76 for sure?
damagex - this could be true.

mineistaken · 07-08-2014, 06:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wehateporn

When Eric goes on holiday GFY gets a temporary mod to cover e.g. Amp or Dirty F

You are lunatic.

brassmonkey · 07-08-2014, 07:08 AM

its going to get slower im taking a week off to do other things.

Sly · 07-08-2014, 07:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by KlenTelaris

Will76.damagex,teencat,dirty franck,v_rocks(tho he deserved ban as he was annoying with constant old thread bumping,but at least he was useful to board)

V_Rocks has a new name that he posts under. Not too difficult to figure out which one.

Klen · 07-08-2014, 08:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mineistaken

Are you sure they were banned?
I know that DirtyF is/was not.
Teencat was, but he posted no problems.
vrocks banned???
will76 for sure?
damagex - this could be true.

Heh i know it you will go into details,but they are still examples of bans which occurred due stupid reasons.
Dirtyf- banned for exposing shady sponsor once,now unbanned,currently left by his own will
Teencat- also banned for exposing shady sponsor,currently unbanned
vrocks -yes,he is still banned as i said due constant bumping of old threads.It seems he have weird obsession to be 50th post in threads.
Will76-also banned for exposing shady sponsor,he was unbanned shortly after but decided not to post ever here again due that ban
Damagex- banned for advertising his private board,still unjust-able ban as it was not direct advertising. Dont know is he still banned or maybe dont want to post as will76

Robbie · 07-08-2014, 09:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TeenCat

five years ago this forum was super alive,

Five years ago was before piracy all but killed the affiliate in this industry.
There were a hell of a lot more people working in this business then.

wehateporn · 07-08-2014, 11:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mineistaken

You are lunatic.

Yes, but I'm still right on Amp and Dirty F

SomeCreep · 07-08-2014, 11:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Robbie

Five years ago was before piracy all but killed the affiliate in this industry.
There were a hell of a lot more people working in this business then.

I don't see the industry ever coming back, do you? I think the future is even more free porn. Some paysites do a decent job of policing their content, but the truth is they're fighting a losing battle. It's just a matter of time until surfers completely overwelm paysites with piracy.

SmutHammer · 07-08-2014, 11:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SomeCreep

I don't see the industry ever coming back, do you? I think the future is even more free porn. Some paysites do a decent job of policing their content, but the truth is they're fighting a losing battle. It's just a matter of time until surfers completely overwelm paysites with piracy.

I think things will get better, Tubes are starting to struggle more, and at some point new laws will be passed. until then I'm still getting sales and doing ok. Just wish programs would get their head out of their asses and stop giving their shit away, not to mention these dumb ass content providers selling with rights to use on tubes. these people are doing nothing but starving themselves out and killing our business more and more.

Porn is far from dead, take a look at Vivid's building in Studio city, Yes smaller than the one before, but still a huge place.

brassmonkey · 07-08-2014, 03:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ed Hammer

I think things will get better, Tubes are starting to struggle more, and at some point new laws will be passed. until then I'm still getting sales and doing ok. Just wish programs would get their head out of their asses and stop giving their shit away, not to mention these dumb ass content providers selling with rights to use on tubes. these people are doing nothing but starving themselves out and killing our business more and more.

Porn is far from dead, take a look at Vivid's building in Studio city, Yes smaller than the one before, but still a huge place.

the affiliate side is the side dying i said it over 5 years ago.

Drake · 07-08-2014, 08:28 PM

A reflection of the state of the industry

brassmonkey · 07-08-2014, 08:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Drake

A reflection of the state of the industry

just the affiliate side there are still whales and me. im building sites daily to fill the gaps

07-07-2014, 04:02 PM	#62
brassmonkey Pay It Forward Industry Role: Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Yo Mama House Posts: 77,121	there is shit from this morning on the front page __________________ TRUMP 2025 KEKAW!!! - The Laken Riley Act Is Law! DACA ENDED - SUPPORT AZ HCR 2060 52R - email: brassballz-at-techie.com

07-07-2014, 05:58 PM	#66
CaptainHowdy Too lazy to set a custom title Industry Role: Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Happy in the dark. Posts: 93,331	GFY will never die ... __________________ "Tjeezers.cam wishes you a nice day”

07-07-2014, 09:51 PM	#73
CurrentlySober Too lazy to wipe my ass Industry Role: Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: A Public Bathroom Posts: 38,591	I'd like 2 swim in your pool of shit? __________________ My AI Handywork... My Dream Gal... XXX 👁️ 👍️ 💩

07-07-2014, 11:11 PM	#75
TeenCat Too lazy to set a koala Industry Role: Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: CZ/EU forever! Posts: 16,139	the problem is also so many subforums. many subforums, less posts in main forum, forum become less active and may look dead ... i had tons of forums with half millions uniques daily and this happenns everytime when more subforums added ... but, thats life, why people cry? where is business? the only one place i know is russian master x, nowhere else its alive or business related. if you want business, go to xbiz, there are few business threads, but at the end, its the same amount as here all subforums together ... why do you cry about something that is still on top and you still visit this place most of all other forums? if you want a change, start at yourself ... nothing super wrong at gfy, except subforums and crybabies __________________ 6bot / Coming again very soon! Svit Zlin Radio 24/7!

07-07-2014, 11:16 PM	#76
TeenCat Too lazy to set a koala Industry Role: Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: CZ/EU forever! Posts: 16,139	five years ago this forum was super alive, tons of posts and so, but five years ago you all have been making easy money by putting banner up and sales came in. gfy is maybe dying but you cant except the same amout of business like years ago when every dummy could make money in adult and you dont needed to spent that much time on promotion and so, so you had more time to spent on forums ... again, its the evolution, and gfy is still on top and still rocks! __________________ 6bot / Coming again very soon! Svit Zlin Radio 24/7! Last edited by TeenCat; 07-07-2014 at 11:18 PM.. Reason: evolution word added, thought there is some better word, but my translator came with nothing better ... :)

07-07-2014, 03:17 PM	#52
Google Expert Webmaster Industry Role: Join Date: Jun 2004 Posts: 14,294	obligatory pic

07-07-2014, 03:20 PM	#53
Klen Industry Role: Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Little Vienna Posts: 32,235	It is simply reflection of times - a lot of affiliates went out of business,so they either switched to mainstream or find full time job.There is like few companies which banks and those who stayed just collecting pennies mostly.Another thing what is lovely example how it went to shitter,how when sponsor is getting exposed for doing something shady,instead blacklisting that sponsor we have more and more boozos defending that program and even people calling affiliates as unnecessary thing and object of past.Till situation with affiliates is not fixed,no board will be active as it should be.

07-07-2014, 03:32 PM	#56
12clicks Too lazy to set a custom title Industry Role: Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: God's right hand Posts: 19,785	Trolls were allowed to chase away business people. Now you have a troll board. You can't sell advertising for a troll board so you get no improvements or moderation. It's the typical death spiral. Swim in the pool of shit you created.

07-07-2014, 03:33 PM	#57
SmutHammer Confirmed User Industry Role: Join Date: Mar 2008 Posts: 4,134	If only they would make this place only for the people in the industry, But this suggestion always gets ignored... As far as people not returning after being banned, If I was banned (I'm actually in the adult business) I would take it as I'm not wanted here and doubt I would return after the ban time was over. Really need to get rid of the worthless trolls. 7 business posts a day would be worthwhile if you didn't have to weed through the useless threads. Don't get me wrong, Some of the stuff is good and fun. but really, Why do we need non-adult people here?

07-07-2014, 06:53 PM	#67
420 cuck Industry Role: Join Date: Mar 2003 Posts: 11,571	Amp has resurrected the forum. Well done old chap.

07-08-2014, 12:33 AM	#77
XMaster Poker Player Industry Role: Join Date: Jul 2003 Posts: 2,944	It would be so sad. __________________ iStripper 50% revshare since 1998 You missed out on Bitcoin! Don't miss DOLZ.

07-08-2014, 01:11 AM	#79
SomeCreep :glugglug Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Where the Wild Things Are Posts: 26,118	people been saying that since 2002 __________________ Webair Hosting I use and recommend Webair for hosting.

07-08-2014, 02:13 AM	#80
EngineCash Confirmed User Join Date: Aug 2006 Posts: 2,816	This place is still very attractive... __________________ support(@)enginecash.com

07-08-2014, 05:39 AM	#86
Scott McD Too lazy to set a custom title Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Glasgow, Scotland Posts: 67,795	Wasn't Franck around just recently ?? Last edited by Scott McD; 07-08-2014 at 05:40 AM..

07-08-2014, 05:43 AM	#87
wehateporn Promoting Debate on GFY Industry Role: Join Date: Apr 2007 Posts: 27,173	When Eric goes on holiday GFY gets a temporary mod to cover e.g. Amp or Dirty F __________________ Sexy Girls Teasing

07-08-2014, 06:11 AM	#88
michael.kickass Too lazy to set a custom title Join Date: Mar 2009 Posts: 11,039	I love this place. __________________ NICERATIOS - $30 PPS - 50% Rev Share - 5% WM Referral - High Converting Sites! Any questions about your NICERATIOS account? Vanessa will take care of you: [email protected] Looking to expand your business in general, maybe sell your sites? Contact me: [email protected]

07-08-2014, 07:08 AM	#91
brassmonkey Pay It Forward Industry Role: Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Yo Mama House Posts: 77,121	its going to get slower im taking a week off to do other things. __________________ TRUMP 2025 KEKAW!!! - The Laken Riley Act Is Law! DACA ENDED - SUPPORT AZ HCR 2060 52R - email: brassballz-at-techie.com

07-08-2014, 08:28 PM	#99
Drake Hello world! Industry Role: Join Date: Mar 2003 Posts: 12,508	A reflection of the state of the industry