Captain Kawaii

JT's cock is calling. You haven't sucked it this morning.

It's not what I think. It is obvious what others think. You support shady people, You work for shady people. You de-rail threads when you do not like the subject matter. It's not what I think. That is very true.

Jel

I think what happens is this: those on the EPC side don't want to see other affiliates potentially lose cash because they are going on emotion and not facts. The smart, the super-rich - they don't base their business decisions on what they feel is fair or unfair, they don't take decisions that go against *them* personally (and by that I mean they don't feel wronged, that it's 'unfair' of the other person to want to maximise their income).

Then on the other side you have those who feel that it's fucking over the affiliate - I can see *why* people are up in arms, but that's because they are looking at it personally.. YOU are fucking me over YOU are stealing YOU are taking money out of my pocket - it's natural to want to 'fight' that, even though once you take all the emotion out of it, it really does come down to sending your traffic to those who pay you the most for your click.

Now, JT hasn't just plucked a decision out of the air - he has looked at the figures, weighed up what he would lose if every affiliate stops sending every click tomorrow, and sees that business-wise, this option pays most. It's no different to any other biz decision for an affiliate: do I get the most EPC from RUC? How much do I get on those EPC in terms of ROI?

What seems like other factors are totally irrelevant, but saying that, it's not a mindset to easily escape, so it's natural there's high feelings in this thread. As an example of what most people *think should happen, but the maths tells us something totally different, have a look at the video below. I hope people do watch it, because it's a great step in understanding, and realising, the potential that relying on maths rather than what you have been conditioned to think, gives you:



Don't just skip over it people, watch it

Relentless

Kawaii,

Show me a post where I said send traffic to a specific sponsor?
In fact I told you not to send traffic to any sponsor if it would earn you less than if you sent it somewhere else.

Think about that.

No... Really. Take a breath and actually think about that.

It's so simple and it still eludes you?

By the way, do you own a website?

Captain Kawaii

I feel exactly the same way. Its why I do not support programs like reallyuseful. They are not alone. There are many like them. They have many supporters who need them. I do not.

It is strange how discussing a program like this really upsets some people. Its due to threads like this that I have been made aware of many programs over the years who are better left alone or to those who would use them.

Captain Kawaii

I own more than 100 sites.

Its not about earning, alone. Its about our traffic. Our traffic represents buyers and people who are passionate about niches we are passionate about. We care about our traffic and have heard from them directly and via consumer boards they do not have the same appreciation that you and damian have for some of the activities of websites you defend.

We are about our traffic, maintaining and developing it. Not raping it for every nickle we can because we can.

I have customers going back to 2007. Think about that.

Jel

It's not that - it's the illusion that all affiliates are better off not touching them. That means affiliates potentially lose out, and earn less money - which is the opposite of what the OP, and those on the non-EPC side of the fence are for, right?

Again, it's that perception thing, getting in the way of the best decision.

Put it this way, there are 2 sites, A & B.

A is JT's faketaxi.com, with it's leaky console
B is joe bloggs taxiporn.com with no consoles, no email box, no cross-sells, no members area upsells

A earns you .03 per click
B earns you .01 per click

You have 50,000 unique clicks per day to send. Where will you, the affiliate, making the best biz decision you can, send those clicks? We all know the answer, which is why it's always about the net EPC, and not tainted by the *perception* that sponsor A is robbing you, because part of their biz model is offering non-credited multi-pass joins.

Sure, you can base decisions on that, it's everyone's absolute right to do so, but others who are more $ inclined might not realise that even with all this 'stealing' going on, he will earn more money for him, his family, his re-investment into business, and so on.

Hence the plentiful replies in this thread, rather than just leaving 1 side of the equation as 'fact'

Relentless

@Jel
Good post, great video.



Keep in mind how he 'feels' about the result doesn't help him. In fact it hurts him.

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Jel

It hurt me for years

slapass

Affiliates don't have much more then our traffic so we need to be able to set some norms. If this is out of the norm, it gets discussed.

Agreeing with you btw.

signupdamnit

The thing is this, Jel.

1. Not everyone is going to run their business how you feel it should be run. It's not your business. Someone may have a different model than you and what you say may not strictly be applicable. You may have no experience with their model or their sites so who are you to say? I've explained this in more detail in the other thread where there was 12+ pages of bullshit about this and over a 100 posts from "Relentless". If someone (other than Relentless who I have on ignore) wants to start a proper topic about I'd be happy to explain my views on why it isn't so clear cut once again.

2. Even if the intent is good the reasonable thing to do is state your view and then move on. NOT hijack the OP which wasn't about $ per click and write 1-2 pages (near 100 replies) saying the same thing over and over again. That's just rude and most people would probably call it being an asshole.

__________________

You don't like my posts? Put me on ignore or fuck right off. I'll say what I want.

Jel

I agree 100%, and obviously that goes for everyone and everyone. What would be lax, is to not point out both sides - when I first started out in this biz, I was freely given a ton of good advice (alas, I never took a lot of it in/on), the caveat being that one day I should share any knwledge *I* have.

As for the rest of your post, again, that goes both ways, and ultimately, check your sig

Relentless

Here is the disconnect.

I care about my traffic VERY much. In fact that is the reason I got into review sites and websitesecure.org in the first place. They are real ways for consumers to find good sites and have a great time (which also means they will come back again). I would never advocate sending traffic to a site that does anything illegal OR to any site that negatively affects your bookmarkers. I have said that twenty times or more in this thread.

Now... We are not talking about any of that. The truth is From A Customer point of view, JTs sites are fantastic. That's a fact. The content is among the most popular in the world, they update constantly and the customers are treated like kings. I know this for a fact because I have test joined the sites, spoken with my own traffic after they have joined, etc... Nobody disputes the customers are treated great. Nobody alleges anything illegal. I know (and have certified the sites do not overcharge or have any hidden charges, they don't spam users, the user experience is 100% clean).

What we are talking about is ONLY an issue on the B2B side regarding affiliate payouts. I don't certify anything to do with affiliate payouts. I don't test or check any part of affiliate programs. Why? Because your own stats already do that for you better than anything else ever could. If a site is 100% legal AND the traffic is treated well, the only remaining stat that matters is $/click. If they aren't legal or harm the traffic in some way, that is a very big deal (because it damages your long term $/click).

1 Card banging = illegal
2 Spamming or hidden charges etc = hurts traffic and long term $/click

3 Shaving, leaks, payout fees, payment thresholds, lack of updates, bad promo materials, etc etc etc = b2b affiliate problems all included in your $/click stat.


If 1 or 2 are true, don't send a single click ever.
If 1 and 2 are not happening only 3 matters.

When it comes to 3, someone pays you the most... Send them your traffic.
How you feel about this is nonsense. The math matters.

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Captain Kawaii

Sorry, relentless...you cannot see the forest for the trees.

There is 4. Programs who do not engage in your 1,2,3.

Robbie

I like JT. But as far as his site's kicking ass...I have no proof of that at all.

Matter of fact...all the traffic I have sent to him comes off of my free sites. Nothing tricky, nothing crazy, no blindlinks, etc.
Just people who are interested and clicked to his sites tours (which is where the sale SHOULD be made)

So far I am at 1:194,921 and have made a grand total of $17.82

Not exactly "fantastic" or "most popular in the world".

The sites are okay for generic porn sites. Seem to be shot "nice". From what I can tell on the trailers on the tour...there isn't much to the scenes that stand out or are very unique or strike me as really hot sex (which is really the bottom line).

I'm not cutting at JT. I have no reason to.

Just saying that his program's sites look like a thousand other sites I've seen in my decades promoting.

Everything is "nice" and clean and shot "pretty" and...kind of like eating at Red Lobster for seafood. It's always gonna be "good", but never really special.

How about some of the rest of y'all? Anybody else left in this industry that actually uses ad tools and honestly sends surfers to a sites tour? Or does everybody just do "mysterious" "tricks" to get sales?

I'd be curious to know if any honest webmasters are making sales on JT's program.

As I said....my traffic is as good as gold. People who are actually clicking the links to see the tour, and then NOT buying.

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ClaudiaMarie.Com

Far-L

You talk any more of that common sense nonsense here and I am going to ask to get you banned for life.

__________________

Relentless

Let's test your assertion.

1 legal or illegal
Every single website and aff program is either doing things legally or illegally.

2 B2C User Experience
Every single website and aff program either treats consumers fairly or unfairly

3 B2B Experience
Any site with an Aff Program pays webmasters an actual net amount per click

Do you disagree with the above? It seems very clear that every program does engage in my 1,2 and 3.

If 1 = illegal: never send a click and/or report them to authorities
If 2 = unfairly: never send a click and protect your traffic / revenue streams

3 is the one people fail to grasp. It comes down only to $/click.
Feelings cost you money and do nothing to protect your traffic with #3
The way a site treats B2B and B2C may be very different.


1,2 and 3... It is math.

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Relentless

Useful B2B information regarding #3 from my posts.

Robbie,

Three simple questions:

Is that the highest EPC for your traffic of all sponsors you work with?

If it is/was the highest EPC would you send more traffic to it?

Would how you 'feel' override making the most $/click you can get?

Thanks for replying.

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Relentless

I'd say something nice about the fact that homegrown is a good b2c nicely performing $/click legal sponsor in the amateur niche... But then dumbasses would try to claim I'm a shill because you also have sites that are websitesecure.org certified.

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JSWENSON

You don't seem to be retarded so I know you comprehend that most here understand what you are saying about $ per click. So why do you keep acting like you're explaining it to 5 year olds?

The one that seems to be confused is you. You just cannot get it through your head that some people have zero interest in sending traffic to a shady piece of shit motherfucker and that it's OK to feel that way.

I know you keep throwing up stupid fucking examples to prove your point, but all it proves is that you live up to your username.

You want us to compare $1,000 per click from a shady company to a tenth of a penny from one that isn't run by thieving fucks to emphasize your point.

Well what about $0.25 per click from a legit company and $0.26 from the assholes? Or how about $0.25 from the legit company and the same from the shady fucks? I can tell you that in all honesty I would choose the company I perceive as above board in both situations for a multitude of reasons. I'll give you a few.

1) I don't trust shady motherfuckers to not change the rules and get more shady after I've put in a lot of work to make them money.

2) I don't trust shady motherfuckers to not decide that fucking over their customers one day is the best move. You can believe if a shady motherfucker is legit to customers it's only because they think that it helps their bottom line. They've already proven they'll be shady when it benefits them so if fucking the customer suddenly looks better in their business model then why the fuck not?

3) I would much rather support someone doing things right, even if it has some impact on my bottom line. Contrary to your idiotic beliefs there are a lot of people that feel this way, even (gasp) successful ones.

4) Because fuck you, that's why. It's really none of your God damned business and constantly sucking the cock of someone being shady when they get called out on it makes you look like... well, it makes you look like a cocksucker.

Jel

some revshare programs offer 60/40. Anyone who doesn't is a thief. Or smth like that.

JSWENSON

If you offer something that is outside of what would be considered "normal" by most people then just fucking say it.

Offering more or less money doesn't make you shady, not paying on multi site joins does not make you shady. What makes you shady is acting like you are running a standard PPS program while quietly sniping sales from the people nice enough to send you traffic.

Jel

60/40 was normal a few years back, with just about any program you hit up that you could send traffic to. That didn't make those who stood firm and refused to go over 50/50 shady etc. email collection boxes were a serious no go in 2003 on revshare programs, yet those came in, and surprise surprise the programs didn't all steal everyone's money.

But saying that, it was a flippant comment and not really relevant - my apologies for bring that into this thread

also, this thread is about a revshare program, not PPS

JSWENSON

If you say what you are doing out in the open it's not shady regardless of how the numbers are swapped around. It's the sneaky shit that people get pissed at.

Far-L

Please don't do that! The last thing we want to see happening is getting a bunch of one click per month affiliates that use 10 hours of customer service per day then go and complain about how we don't also give happy endings after the ego massages...

__________________

Captain Kawaii

No, this is your 1,2 and 3

1 Card banging = illegal
2 Spamming or hidden charges etc = hurts traffic and long term $/click

3 Shaving, leaks, payout fees, payment thresholds, lack of updates, bad promo materials, etc etc etc = b2b affiliate problems all included in your $/click stat.

My 4 does not change just to weasel an argument. Please spare the board of any more weasel activity for the day.

Captain Kawaii

LOL. - In Tokyo we call that a double-dick blowjob. Nice work, Relentless.

Relentless

This is a useful point. Ignoring the nonsense you posted before it, let's look at this point.

What you are saying is you apply a threshold to $/click and bracket sponsors. I do that as well. What one sponsor in one niche pays may be the highest even if it's much lower than a sponsor in a different niche bracket. Also, more to your point, within certain threshold percentages the values are essentially even.

A program paying .011% less than another might not get dropped for a lot of reasons. However if the payouts are 40% apart they aren't in the same bracket. As to how wide those brackets should be, I base that on past performance. If my expected EPC moves up or down by 8% from one month to another in a particular niche, I make the brackets 8% apart from each other for similar sites. That's a business decision based on math and objective values.


I don't trust non-shady motherfucker to avoid becoming shady motherfuckers. So I watch all my stats and if they change the rules in a way that affects my stats, I notice and I make changes accordingly. That's true whether I 'feel' like they were shady or 'feel' like they weren't. It's immediately clear just by looking at my net $/click and nobody can distort that stat.

You trust people much more than I do. You are implying you only watch people you think are shady. That is a huge mistake. For years people thought epassport wasn't shady. Watching people you 'feel' are shady leaves a big blind spot for people you 'feel' aren't shady but end up being wrong about. Instead of watching the people, watch the clicks!

Just like in poker, you can have a 'feeling' about what someone else is doing... But you will win much more if you accurately objectively focus on the cards and the bets. The jack of diamonds is always exactly a jack of diamonds, no matter how you feel about it.

I have hobbies too. Business is not a hobby. If you are comparing one bracket1 sponsor against another bracket1 sponsor there is room for 'choice' but if you are basing your decision on how you feel when the $/click is brackets apart you are fucking yourself, whether you see it or not.

If you really want to show them how you 'feel', make a ton of money, build an empire and rub their noses in it. Create a top quality site that can actually compete. Go out and crush it with the whole world watching. Whining about what is fair or what you wish they would do is not useful to yourself or anyone else. Yes, even if you use the F word and pretend you are a big strong manly man. The facts and the math remain exactly the same.

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sabaidii2

Unfortunately, asking is pointless. I've already asked Eric (who *I think* runs this board to do just that. Got no response.

This thread is most likely going to be my first and last. Boards need adult supervision to keep the trolls away. There is no adult control on GFY.

Relentless

Just closed my second deal since this thread started from people I met during this discussion. If anyone else is looking for high quality marketable text written quickly and delivered on time, the thread is the best writing sample anyone will ever give you. Contact me for a free estimate.

Thanks GFY ;)

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Relentless

Your /sarcasm meter is broken
Far-L is smart enough to understand the power of $/click



P.S. - So is Eric

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fuzebox

I agree with you. I don't see anything wrong with bringing this stuff up, especially after contacting the company first. I don't see anything wrong with this thread, other than the fact that I think it's common knowledge that RUC isn't an affiliate-friendly program and I'm surprised people are still finding this out every day. I think using the words "cheating" and "shady" are a bit harsh for identifying a traffic leak, and I don't agree with creating threads for the purposes of drawing a lynch mob.

I think Relentless should take a step back from these threads, as his message got lost sometime in the last teencat thread. I was just trying to re-interpret was he was saying to the guys who react emotionally and get into it with him in these threads.

the Shemp

thanks, im going to drop in one day and say hello, you guys need a socialist over there ... ;)

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Captain Kawaii

We get the message. We got the message when teencat brought up what he thought was suspicious activity. May or may not have been suspicious. You're in it for the money and do not really care that a program is shivving you as long as you're making that paper. I think if a program is shown to be unfriendly to affiliates or engages in shady practices in one area it is quite likely they are making shady moves in other areas. Like rebills. Something I brought up but no one picked up on, at least for the record.

Just some of us choose not to work with programs that appear to be less than reputable. No emotion. Its called business ethics. Some of us have them and some of us do not.

I will say JT's sites look pretty but like Robbie, I've always felt they are awfully generic. They all seem the same and not very real. Glad you guys are banking on them. Good for you.

Enjoy the day!

Alex1776

Pretty unbelievable that this thread is so long, yet nothing has really been said!

JSWENSON

$ per click man, $ per click.

mopek1

Nice.

I was just about to post an example along these lines. Thanks for saving me the time.

I too would rather work with the company that pays $0.25 than $0.26 for all the reasons you listed.

mopek1

That's a very reasonable post in a crazy heated thread.

And I agree with what you are saying that many factors should be looked at and that a certain mindset is preferable etc... All logical and sound stuff.

What I am against is the derailing of a thread via multiple repetitive posts, name calling, hostility, trolling etc...

This is about 'discussion'. If someone wants to convince the OP or me or anyone else that they/I are wrong I am fine with it. Just behave like an adult.

Klen

Tried to import fhg's but none of them were process by smarthumbs,all throwed error,so i was not able to send any hit one way or another.Tho i think key problem is exposure of his content,meaning how there is a chance how everyone seen his content on some of major tubes,and when surfer come to our sites he wont see anything new.

Struggle4Bucks

No YOU made it a $/click discussion while, and you can ask the OP, it was originally a "brinning a leak into attention-thread". Now no one want to go through 7 pages of $/click-shit and i'm starting to believe that that was the only purpose of your industriousness anyway... or what someone else also said... it damn looks like autism...

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Struggle4Bucks

Leaks will give you low $/click

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Struggle4Bucks

Maybe... if you promise to keep your $/click-shit out of my moviedescriptions...
You tend to write $/click-stories at places they were not ment to be placed...
I don't want to bother my customers with math...

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Relentless

We're quite social ;)

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DVTimes

page 7 bumpo

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DamianJ

3 fiddy people STILL bad at maths.



I made $2k less this month than I could have, but at least I know the sponsor I am working with doesn't have a leak on his tour so I WIN!

Fucking derp derp derp.

Relentless

And if you understand that, then you can see leaks lower the bid from a sponsor and increase the reason an affiliate would move their traffic.
If you look at your $/click you will automatically find every leak... Unless the leak isn't costing you any money, in which case it isn't a problem.
If a program used to pay you 20 per click and then they add leaks so they pay 8 per click you'll see the 12 drop and can take action
If a program used to pay you 20 per click and they add leaks but your per click remains 20 or goes up over 20, that leak isn't your problem
Leaks only matter if they affect your $/click. Shaving only matters if it affects your $/click. And $/click is the easiest most reliable thing you can calculate.
It's math

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Struggle4Bucks

Going for the best $/clicks where internet, the quality of traffic and the paysites itself are not static things and constantly fluctuating.

You push 100 sites right now while at the same time not pushing a 1000 others.
You cannot even possibly know where at this specific point you get the best $/click
beause results from the past don't say anything about today.

Good luck with grabbing your traffic and send it instantly and constantly somewhere else everytime $/clicks declining. Some bizzmodels aren't suitable for this anyway...
Review sites (and other types) don't select sites on $/clicks... they simply publish sites because they excist... They deserve their traffic is being received correctly. If you as a program accept traffic from affiliates, it's no more then decent to do everything possible to make sure that IF a sale comes out of that, the sale is being credited. Or don't accept affiliates and don't run an affiliate program.

People put effort in pushing specific sites at specific sponsors for whatever reason they have. If it's not based on best $/click then that their choice... You move traffic all the time... others want to build relationship with sponsor and try to constantly improve their ratios... You and your $/clicks theory don't decide for others how they want to work.

So... your $/clicks theory and moving traffic all the time doesn't apply to all situations.
So... everyone that says "could haves" and "would be's" and "posibilities" don't excist are captured in their own autistic way of thinking and working.
Even "could haves" can be calculated with maths...

With math you can also simulate situations and make calculations
and predictions...You can even calculate "could haves" . That might be just as accurate as weatherpredictions... yes...they use math for that too... but sometimes weatherpredictions are very accurate... most of the time they are pretty close.
Did you know that many companies and governments use math to make predictions
and calculations about "could haves" and "would be's"?. That they invest a lot of money and make everyday decissions based on "could haves" and "would be's".
"Could have" and "would be" calculations might not give you an exact number on what will be but denying there are "could haves" at all is just an insult to maths. It is even denying maths... Some people only want to use maths when it fits their agenda...

And... again... let's not forget... this thread wasn't about $/clicks... it was about a leak.

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Relentless

In one reply you managed to struggle with a lot of basic things.

1 review sites can and do steer traffic when properly managed, in fact that is the whole point of that business model.

2 in 2014 if your affiliate business model does not allow you to easily track $/click and quickly change your traffic source or targets you are doing it wrong.

3 If you have a good traffic source and a good target but can not track it or modify it quickly, you have a great reason to build your own paysite, or a terrible reason to build your own affiliate site.

4 when banks start letting you deposit 'could haves' I'll start tracking them. Until then they count for exactly zero.

Lars_Cash

thx for the post - good stuff!!

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anexsia

I haven't personally promoted RUC but I do use use a program's ad tools and just simply send visitors to the tour without any crazy tricks or black hat tactics on my websites I'm sure I could make a hell of a lot more money by tricking the surfer or creating some large tube site with 770184389 hour long videos but I'm happy with just making blogs and getting the surfer to the tour to see if they want to buy.