Sure.

And? That's not the first time that's ever happened right?

So Republicans are pissed because the other side passed a bill through while they were in control? That's not childish at all.

Legacy? His legacy isn't going to be about healthcare - it's going to be about guiding us out of the recession.

Yes. Because it's a Republican idea.

That's called Democracy. The party who has control gets to pick and choose what they want.

The public was against it? Sure sure. You know, because of the death panels. The smear campaign went on for two years before it became a bill.

So Obamacare is bad and Romeny is fine. Why aren't they fighting Romneycare?

So they were made at Obama so they revolted? Fucking childish. The Republican party is pissed because they lost TWICE to a black man who had never accomplished anything.

Seems to me the only people who hate Obamacare are the Republicans on this board.

I support this because we need something and Obamacare is better than what we had.

Some people will come out ahead, others will pay more. All of us were going to more NO MATTER WHAT so that's still a win.

I really hope so. It will prove exactly how petty the Republican party has become - The Republican party is going to spend years fighting something they created (Romneycare) that has made our healthcare better. If they do repeal this law it will be a huge loss - years and billions wasted only to start from square one all over again.

Vendzilla and I are friends.... He's in China right now he tells me.

But he just can't debate to save his life.

No clue for six months and suddenly they know to a decimal point how many signed up lol
Then they celebrate the lie to tell you how stupid they think you are

It must be the same 7 million non-existent voters from 2012

Ahhh. You see the world as black and white. You and George Dubya have more in common than you would like to admit.

Perhaps you should watch news source that actually informs you. They have been giving out numbers on ACA sign ups for some time, since it went live actually. It was only the first month that there was much confusion. There was never a real mystery of how many people were signing up and there was always a last min sign up rush that was expected.

I hear you brother.

If you are a republican in the adult business please leave. Because you are an idiot.

I'm back, what did I miss?

I bring up mostly facts and BTW, not against the democratic party or the republican party, don't like any of them, who I think is screwing up is the POTUS.

As far as debating, look at the polls, most people in the US agree with me

Crockett and I super duper agree here.

Anything called reform should have addressed this.

If hospitals charged a normal markup, someone like your friend would have been able to just tighten his belt and sell a few toys to pay the bill for surgery, not be deterred and destroyed by the cost.

Every party has it's nuts and fruits, judging a party by the actions of one of them is naive.

Same would be said if you judged all people because you knew one of them that was an idiot.

The democrats passed this law and they are feeling the heat, the people are not happy and all the polls right now show that the the democrats are going to lose seats during the mid terms.

I say that because they passed it with NO help from the GOP.

People were promised they could keep their plans and they were promised that the prices would go down, it's not working out that way. Yes, 7 million people have signed up , but of those numbers, no one is releasing how many are getting insurance that didn't have it before. I just came from China, 7 million people is a shit number, over 4 times that live in Shanghai alone.

I don't think that 7 million sign-ups, however pathetic that may be, is the important number. Why isn't anyone mentioning that less than a million have actually paid a premium so far.

This is not sustainable in any way, shape or form.

Estimates are that 80% of the 7 million have actually paid. However only 1/3 of the 7 million were people previously without insurance. And of that 1/3, just over 50% of them have actually paid their premiums. Which would leave roughly 1 million previously uninsured signed up.

They also estimate currently that between 5-8% of people that paid the first month, did not pay the 2nd month.

Of course until the White House puts out detailed records of all this, its all estimates based on polling of the various insurance companies.

Social Security is here to stay, until it changes ... try taking it away.

And 3 million are, according to the OP site post, recent college grads staying on the parents' insurance longer. This doesn't seem like the population most in need of help in the health area.

Looks like a lot of the uninsured people now getting insured are those that fall into the under 26 that are going to school and get insurance under their parents insurance.

If they don't get the healthy young people they need in the program that don't use insurance, it's going to drive up the cost for those that need it.

Obamacare Insurer WellPoint Sees Double-Digit Rate Rise
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2014-0...rate-rise.html

you must be a republican as I've never noticed you to be in my business.

Obamacare isn't better. The CBO has debunked all that. And the CBO is non-partisan, and their findings seem very logical, so no one is really disputing it. Less jobs, no improvement to how many people are insured, and higher costs.

Not everyone is Republican, I wouldn't qualify myself as Republican although Obama (whom I voted for twice), is certainly pushing me in that direction with his incompetence. A lot of people on this board are likely the same, but got fucked over by Obamacare. If we look at the replies on this board, it seems more people got fucked over by Obamacare than benefitted from it (maybe it's a telling sign).

Democrats are distancing themselves from Obamacare. You don't seem to want to acknowledge that. And the first part of your reply where you said people who dont read bills should go to jail - when I mentioned that Democrats controlled everything and forced it thru, your reply was "thats how democracy works" - so you went from A. "they should go to jail for not reading bills" to B. "this is how democracy works." The reality is you are very partisan, you hate Republicans and don't want to face the facts, or you are so personally invested in the Obamacare situation because of your benefits, you will defend it at any cost even if its illogical where in one moment you say people should go to jail for not reading the bills, to then saying in the next moment that it's how Democracy works and its perfectly OK.

If they didn't read the bill before they voted on it, how we did know about the death panels?

I honestly believe that if you think everyone in Congress wasn't fully aware of the bill and what was in, I think you are utterly clueless. This wasn't written up in a few hours, handed to Congress in the morning, and voted on the same afternoon. We had two years of discussions and debates, the bill was written and re-written dozens of times to appease both parties, the bill was examined by dozens of agencies inside and outside of the government, AND it was looked over in detail by the Republican party.

And at the end of the day it all came down to party lines, period. When it was Romneycare the Republicans stood firmly behind it, but now that it's a Democrat bill it's horrible and illegal - Fuck off. That's the bullshit political games.

This bill - now a law - isn't all too bad if you think about it. This law removes "pre exisiting conditions", allows young adults to stay on their parent's plan longer, and has made healthcare easier and less expensive for the people who need it the most. Did it cost some of us more - You betcha, but our healthcare insurance always goes up so that's not much of an issue. Did people have their plans canceled - you betcha, but this happens every year and it's called open enrollment.

In fact, we have not.

The costs for our healthcare went down all across the board. We get our healthcare through my wife's work, and before in the past healthcare costs were so expensive that my wife's employer could not afford to cover all three of us so only my wife was covered. Now the overall costs have come down, plus my wife's work has new incentive to provide coverage so we now are all covered.

We have Kaiser Permanente, the same plan we've had for years.

Ugh... not at all..

Obamacare, Climate change / Global warming, Voting laws etc, are all very complicated. There are millions of "where as"'s and "therefore"'s in every law and it is something few people outside the governments that few people will fully understand.

What I am trying to do is boil it all down, to the elected officials that have the job with explaining the situation to the population, and who you trust to deliver the honest message.

Clearly, people don't trust republicans, and others don't trust democrats, or other various groups.

So then: Forgetting the groups, who do you, Sly, trust in government, to tell you the truth about what you want to know? Please name 1 person about 1 subject, and lets take it from there.


Welcome back.


Thats fine and I agree with you, but it doesn't really answer my question and not to be rude, but it this is now the second time you have dodged the question. My question again to you is, "How can republican lawmakers, be expected to be taken seriously, when they talk like this?" (Referring to the video clips I posted)

Or if you want, answer the question I put to Sly: Who do you trust in government, to tell you the truth about what you want to know?

I'm not attacking you or poking you for anything.

There are quite a few idiots on BOTH sides.
I am embarrassed that Both sides let these people speak, so the entire world can see them. Heck, that they even are in a position the hold...

My thoughts exactly

The problem the govt is dealing with when it comes to any sort of meaningful reform is like I mentioned in the other topic in relation to insurance. The govt has to deal with the current market place.

Just like the govt wouldn't go in and nationalize the county's oil fields and refineries or set a maximum price on a gallon of gas, they can't exactly do that with the health sector or insurance either.

Countries that do those kinds of things are dictatorships in most cases. As a so called free society we have to work around various markets that have been created over time due to the status qua. We can't force private companies into that situation instantly. We have to slowly push them in that direction giving them time and ability to change their business models.

Sure it's would be more beneficial for the people to just turn everything into a free system single payer system where anyone could walk into any hospital or doctors office and get treatment doing away with massive bills that put people into bankruptcy and ending the useless leech system that is the health insurance market.

We simply can't do that as a free and open society.

IMO the current Obamacare set up is sort of a stop gap system that is necessary to deal with the insurance problem. It will eventually lead us to a single payer system IMO.

The hospital situation is another situation completely. Obama care wasn't a bill to reform the entire healthcare system, but rather to get people access to healthcare.

Expecting Obamacare to reform the entire system is asking too much of it from the start. It will help drive the costs down but separate or additional reform is needed in that area. A good start would be making a regulation that requires hospitals to show up front what they charge for procedures and make them justify charging people $50 for a aspirin and explain who that is not the same as say price gouging during a national disaster.

I only have anecdotal evidence but it has helped some of my friends so I know at least some people are using it as intended.

crockett...I don't know who hacked your account. But whomever it was is making good sense. :)

The fact that they are voted into office, tells you a lot about the people living in the areas that voted them into office. It's one thing if someone does a stupid or crazy thing once they were in office. Michele Bachmann was clearly a lunatic before she was elected and people of Iowa still voted her into office. It's not like she turned bat shit crazy over night, so that kinda scares me thinking of the people whom actually voted her into office.

This again is the world through the filters of your own bias. All republicans are not one person nor are they the comments of one person and there is just as much stupidity on the democratic side which you ignore because again, you are biased towards democrats. In fact, you continually malign 1/2 of the population of the country, never once stopping to consider the magnitude of the math involved or pondering why its all so confusing to you, that you so easily conclude like so many that 1/2 a nation must be "crazy". This is an example of how you continue to press the same old point. "that team = bad".... "my team = good" (ironically, you aren't technically on either team)

Its all not that complicated.

Since you are a fan of science, i will attempt to explain a bit of well studied science for you.

We are all biased towards our views.

You can say "lets take bias out of it" but what you do not really understand or don't want to accept is that is absolutely 100% impossible. Bias is not a conscious filter. Its unconscious... meaning before you become consciously aware of anything at all, the information has ALREADY passed through all your mental filters and become distorted and perverted to suit your pre-determined narratives and beliefs. This is in part, what makes scientific study difficult and what makes removing bias from a study difficult. I would guess you at least understand that.

You don't have to dig too far to find countless studies of unconscious bias in psychology and neuroscience.... not to mention many many attempts to use them in court. Every single person here that says they are not biased against anything... say "black people",... including black people are lying. They are not intentionally lying... they just don't know. They don't have conscious access to that information. They only have the socially acceptable answers they give and the fabrications (confabulations) they use to defend those answers. And when measured and tested, the results are very very consistent across the board and across tests and across races and cultures.

So... you are biased to see things one way. I am biased to see things another. It's fine. It's exactly how human beings are designed. There is a reason you deny it. And that reason is one of the many which makes the most incredible living thing designed by nature (your brain) so advanced and downright incredible to see in action. It's actually one of the very reasons that true artificial intelligence has yet to be created and likely won't be in our lifetimes.... because our brain is not a computer. It is a million man, multi party legislative body, arguing furiously about every single choice and action and finding the winning argument of millions of arguments with every single decision or action.

You are in denial because it is actually how your brain itself is designed. And for your own survival and that of the tribe, its actually better this way. Much much better. Decisions are much much better. When you make decisions, you have no access to the actual decision making process. When someone offers you 1000.00 to take a cock in the ass on film... you're brain lights up with neural activity and literally millions of decision centers go into action weighing pro's and con's and battling it out. The only thing you are consciously aware of is the final 1 or 2 winning arguments... and with that, conscious thinking becomes the final arbiter. In terms of conscious thinking, you then falsely take credit for a winning argument that you had nothing to do with which simply popped into conscious awareness. Neuroscientist David Eagleman refers to the decision making processes of the brain as a "team of rivals". The best decisions are not made by full agreement on all sides. The best decisions are made by brutal battles where every single point is made and heard and the winning argument rises to the top. To argue.. you need arrogance and confidence in your argument no matter how lopsided or misguided and flat out wrong it may be.

This, no matter what anyone wants to believe, actually mirrors our political system.

You are not special.

You are not enlightened.

You are just ignorant of how the brain actually works and what drives peoples behaviors.

But its not your fault because you don't understand the mental processes involved... you simply react to stimuli like a rodent seeking cheese or escaping danger. And you should. That too, is by design. The brain is costly to run and though insanely efficient, your brain doesn't want to know a whole lot beyond matters directly pertaining to survival and reproduction. Conscious thinking is also slow, clunky and costly in terms of energy spent. It's more energy efficient to cling to a narrative and set of beliefs and dismiss anything which calls them into question.

So... like all, you are so sure of yourself and your own ideas and views as you ignore your own bias', give more weight to your own points and less weight to those against you, more weight to those on your team and less to those on the other.... as you lift your team up and put them on a pedestal and look at the other as the cause of every problem known to man.

That's what teams do. Teams "blind and bind". This again is the brilliance of our design and the human brain. Teams don't need to agree. They are not effective when they agree. When everyone in the tribe agrees that they will have peace for 1000 years... thats when they weaken their security and someone swoops in to destroy them. You need voices expressing all concerns and all sides of the argument with equal veracity. The more people agree, the more blind they become to the possibilities (and future genetic consequences) of being wrong.

You are nothing more than one voice in a sea of millions contributing to an argument with the same old self righteous "my team = good".. "your team = bad", "my team = right"... "your team = wrong" self assured, misguided and deluded arrogance that everyone else has on every. You are a tiny cog in a machine fulfilling your role, never realizing at all that you make no difference whatsoever and change no minds.

A wise person can step back and observe and appreciate the whole process for what it is. An ignorant person only has their own biased narrative and plays their own largely irrelevant role... for the greater good of the group "....a poor player, that struts and frets his hour upon the stage, and then is heard no more. It is a tale told by an idiot, full of sound and fury, signifying nothing."

That's a pretty good post really.

Society has come to expect "instant gratification" and this is rarely the case. You don't become CEO of a company like Ford or General Motors and suddenly the company is making a profit two months later - It just doesn't work like that.

When Obamaboy become President, for the first two years people were like "Why hasn't he fixed this yet?". It's not an instant fix - Our economy was a mess and it's not something that is going to be fixed two years.

The Healthcare law is the first step towards making changes in our healthcare system. There are some real benefits coming out of Obamacare, but instead of being thankful for the positive half of the country is focusing on the negative. If your car gets a flat tire on the side of the road, do you fix the flat or do you sit on the side of the road bitching and crying for two years? Not sure about you, but I expect our government to fix the problems not buy me a new car.

Politics is amazing.

Think about this for a second - How did Obama become president? He was an unknown Senator with no major accomplishments what so ever. How did he ever get nominated?

Bachman? That was a joke. Seriously, she was added in there just for giggles. Palin isn't much better.

I'm not saying that Obama has done bad, but I wonder if I was wrong about Romney. Thinking back he was so much more qualified. Who is more qualified - a Senator that never accomplished anything or a governor who has accomplished a lot? Makes you wonder.

Say what?


Can the Federal government declare a national crisis in healthcare availability and become the biggest competitor for healthcare in the marketplace -- you betcha!

Sure thing. The President signed a bill into a law and it's been two years of lawsuits - Can you just fucking imagine what they would do if Obama tried that?

http://cdn.politicaloutcast.com/wp-c...a-dictator.jpg

What facts? Like the one where the price of gas was at an all time high under Obama even though it was higher under Bush? Or the one where you said the Congressional Report on Waco said the fires were caused by the FBI when the report said the direct opposite?

I like you, I really do, but you don't research anything and you tend to just repeat bullshit from websites. You just can't debate to save your life.

Really? Death panels? http://www.snopes.com/politics/medical/over75.asp http://www.factcheck.org/2012/04/death-panels-redux/

Let us know how it goes when you try to use it. goodgirl's experience has been all over the board from her doctor not taking it to doctors who were listed as accepting it saying they don't.

This shit just confirms for me that my choice to ignore the medical community and everything associated with it is the way to go.

Never said all time high, please re read. It dropped under Bush a lot at the end, then started climbing back up and staying there under Obama

What report are you talking about? It was the congressional report that was final.

Yes, death panels. My point is the negativity started early on... They didn't read the bill? Bullshit, the Republican party ripped it apart long before the bill was finalized and started telling us how horrible it was.

so ~2.1% of the population, nice work Obama!

2.1% = Democrat victory lap

I'm pretty sure you've claimed gas was more expensive under Obama than Bush.

You sure did say the following a lot:

"When Obama went into office, the average price of gas was $1.84"

But again, that's cherry picking. Of course the price of gas dropped by the time Bush left office - the entire fucking economy crashed.

You claimed the Congressional Report On Waco blamed the deaths on CS gas. But you never read the report, but instead read some summary written by a single person. The full report says:

"It is important to note, however, that there are no published studies which find that any human death has been caused by exposure to CS agent."

"While it cannot be concluded with certainty, it is unlikely that the CS riot control agent, in the quantities used by the FBI, reached lethal toxic levels."

You cherry picked something that backed up the point you were trying to make, claimed the Congressional Report said it was so, but being as you never read the report you had no clue it said the opposite.

Here's the post: https://gfy.com/showpost.php?p=19794873&postcount=123

I've had three different people tell me today that their prior insurance package was canceled. That's just people randomly telling me about it.

I had mine cancelled, but it worked out well for me. Since I have a preexisting condition and am self employed I was never able to buy regular insurance. I had a catastrophic policy that only covered life threatening things. It sucked and I had to pay for pretty much everything out of pocket.

It was canceled since I am too old for that under Obamacare, but through the exchanges I was able to buy better insurance. My premium doubled and I have a $2,500 deductible, but I have prescription coverage, my doctor is covered under it so I have small co-pays for visits and anything like that. In the end I end up spending close to the same as before, but I have much better coverage, it is much more convenient and in the event I get sick/hurt with something that requires an ER trip or urgent care trip, but isn't life threatening, it will end up saving me money.

A CNN poll at the time the bill was rammed through congress showed that 57% of Americans opposed it.

As of a couple weeks ago the popularity of the law had gone up slightly, now it's only opposed by ................................ 57% of Americans :1orglaugh
http://politicalticker.blogs.cnn.com...care-edges-up/

The bill was a turkey that was passed over the objections of the majority because it was more important to have a political win for Obama and the Dems than it was to actually govern.

Just because you see a good outcome for yourself does not mean there will be a good outcome for everybody, or even for the majority.

I'm waiting for the insurance companies to announce the rates for 2015 in a couple months, if the increase is what some are predicting there will be blood on the walls down at the DNC come November.

Unless of course, the Administration bails them out.