I am going to sum all of that up as briefly as possible. I am a member of the Chamber of Commerce, The Les Aspin Institute, The State of WI. Manufacturers Association, and the State of WI. apprenticeship division. Since Obamacare first became law it has been a hot topic at every meeting I attend. All of my daily business time is spent with other business people. Mostly in manufacturing and in the supply chain.

Since obamacare became law it has been viewed by everyone I deal with as a negative on the economy and their individual businesses. For the first 2 years since it was passed, there was the unknown, It put a big gray cloud. People that had money to invest didn't because they weren't sure what the impact of obamacare would be. Once it became more clear what the impact was going to be, people started planning for it. That was important. Business people do much better when they can plan, rather than simply reacting.

Unfortunately, from what I hear the planning for it stage is not going to do much to grow the economy. A lot of business people still hold out hope that the mandate will be dropped. If you don't believe me..look up the growth in the machine tool industry, They are doing great.
Selling lots of new automated equipment.

You can argue the point about whether automation will add jobs. It's what I do for a living and I can say with certainty it won't add jobs. It will add profits.

Too late to edit:

As long as the federal government is willing to borrow money to pump crazy amounts of cash into the ecomony, you can rest assured that people like me in manufacturing will be more than happy to take it. :) And I do have a nice liquid savings account for when no one wants to lend the US anymore money.

Automation is not a result of Obamacare.. It's a result of technology and it's gone on since Henry Ford created the first assembly line. China where they pay people $30 a month and then take half of it back in forced housing fees is also using robots. Automation is not just about cutting labor costs but also about doing a more precise, uniform and efficient job.

Chinese factories aren't cutting $30 dollar a month labor in exchange for robots that cost from $300k to a million dollars. It's obviously more profitable for them to keep the cheap labor, if you only take labor expense into account. However the robots are more efficient and do a more precise jobs which ends up creating more profit because they do a better job faster.

They don't have Obamacare in China.. 8)

You can spin it however you want.This isn't China. I don't need a 200 page report to learn that obamacare is hurting the economy. Robots aren't anywhere near that expensive today. We bought a new panasonic recently. Turnkey = $68,000.
Before obamacare we would've hired a couple of welders. If you didn't make large quantities of any one part robots were hard to justify. Today, they are not hard to justify.

When did this thread become about Fox News.

It's about the CBO report, no propaganda

Who's brainwashed and ignorant?

LOL, 7 pages of people posting saying the CBO report is wrong, geez!

The fact that people buy into this political spin of "job-lock" is really a testament to how stupid and ridiculous some in this country are.

It's widely acknowledged the economy is lagging due to the labor market. The Fed (who basically run the economy) are not happy inflation is too low, and are concerned with deflation (think of the amazing economic Carter years in the 70s!). The believe inflation is so low because the labor market is so crappy and most people are out of work (and therefore cant spend), that the economy isn't picking up, and prices aren't going up over time. This is a really really bad thing, because if prices fall over time, then people dont buy things thinking shit is cheaper into the future, and it's a downward spiral.

3 years ago, the Fed said, when unemployment hit 6.5%, they'd start to raise interest rates (because they'd assume with jobs inflation would pick up), except one thing happened.... the unemployment rate started to drop not because we started adding so many jobs, but because people started to leave the work force for a variety of reasons (aging baby boomers, frustrated they couldn't find work, etc). So the fed said, the new trigger for raising interest rates will be an inflation target, not an unemployment rate target. Look at today, the unemployment rate is 6.6%, can you imagine what would happen if the Fed started to raise interest rates? My statement infers that there would be no more taper, (so an immediate termination of 65b a month in asset purchases), plus they would literally begin to go into rounds 1 and 2 of QE and begin to raise interest rates. It would be turmoil, and we'd likely go right back into recession.

Now people have another reason to leave the work force, because they are afraid they would fail to quality for Obamacare subsidies, adding another headache to the mix. There's an incentive not to work, to not participate in the labor force. The Fed wants inflation. The Fed knows people need to work and make $ to spend, which drives inflation. A CBO report on Obamacare suggests that the equivalent of 2.5m jobs will be lost in the form of people electing not to work, because Obamamcare incentivizes them not to work, in order to qualify for Obamacare subsidies.

So in this context, can someone explain to me how a CBO report stating that Obamacare will disincentivize people to work because as they make more $, they will fail to qualify for Obamacare subsidies is a good thing for the economy?

Any Obamapologist, explain this to me... The reality is the report was incredibly damaging to Obamacare and if you need any affirmation, you can look at their "political spin." When in the last 4 years did any Democrat boast that Obamacare will free you from "job-lock"? - Never. It's pure and total political spin, and you shouldn't buy into it.

crockett, I'm obviously not communicating in a way that you are understanding.

I'll try one more time.

The paragraph you quoted is EXACTLY what I am saying is BAD.

The "Affordable Health Care Act" is disincentivizing peole to work.
Less people in the workforce. Smaller tax base. Smaller economy. Bigger debt.

I don't even know what the heck you are arguing about. We AGREE on that part.

The thing we disagree on is that you seem to think this is a GOOD thing.

Now you can keep on insulting me all you want and ramble on about "Fox News" until you turn red in the face.
It doesn't change what Al Gore would call the "Inconvenient Truth"

The only thing I see you (as you parrot the talking points from Nancy Pelosi and the big Democrat Party machine) doing is spinning this and trying to make 2.5 million MORE people leaving the work force a "good" thing.

I would like to stay civil in this discussion. And I've asked you to please keep it in the arena of ideas.

But every post you make is some kind of insult slinging and name calling.
Pathetic.

You should post more, you understand this very well. Great post!!

Nah...he isn't repeating the zombie-like talking points from the big Democrat Party Machine. He obviously doesn't "get it"

If he isn't in lockstep with the Democrat spin talking points then he must just be brainwashed from Fox News.

Perhaps one day, when he gets a "thrill up his leg" when Obama speaks like Chris Matthews does, he will become "enlightened" and learn to NOT believe that CBO report and ONLY believe the spin on the report that is put out by pro-Obama websites.

Careful with the sarcasm, crockett and Rochard are already confussed

No Robbie you just don't see the difference in people that HAVE to work just to get insurance vs having the OPTION to not keep a second job that they only needed for insurance. You are acting as if all able bodies should have to work or else they are lazy bums.

No it's just 7 pages you circle jerking with Robbie and ignoring what the report actually said.

Which is odd because everyone I've discussed it with tells me it's going to lower their healthcare costs in a huge way.

It's going to hurt businesses? Fuck 'em. No worries, they'll find a way to write it off their taxes.

Ok, you win.

Last week the Democrat party told you that "income inequality" HAD to be addressed NOW. The minimum wage MUST be raised. That way we don't think about obamacare

This week? The CBO report BURNS them on obamacare

So quickly, do a 180!
Jobs?
We don't need no stinking jobs!
Extra income?
Hell no!
But what about "income inequlity"? How does leaving the workforce and taking money from the govt help that?

"Don't worry about what we said last week Robbie! And furthermore, there will be no actual debate on this! If you don't groupthink with the big Democrat machine, then I'll just ignore the actual issue and say you are jerking with Vendzilla. And next week we will change the national conversation again so NOTHING is ever answered." :(

Again with the rock solid economic arguments that ultimately benefit all. Thank god we have people like you while still mired in the worst economic recovery every in the history of the US economy. Gives me hope.

Yeah, hard to compare with Minte's rock solid economic arguments about his fellow business owners who are concerned over a small increase in cost - verses someone who spends 40% of their income on healthcare because of pre-existing medical conditions....

35% approval for Obamacare
http://politicalticker.blogs.cnn.com...-all-time-low/

>38%
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/1...n_4494074.html

41%
http://www.politico.com/story/2014/0...ll-103117.html

31%
http://www.rasmussenreports.com/publ...ealth_care_law

You need to get out more

It must really suck to be you. Raise the bar Stud. You spend too much time with poor people.

Because you don't own and run a large business, you don't understand that ANY increase in costs are a big deal.

I'm still sitting here laughing.:1orglaugh 40% of his income goes to health insurance. A great policy costs under $1500 a month.

Not when you are married, have three kids, and two out of five people have pre-existing medical conditions.

Healthcare costs go up every year, for both individuals and businesses.

Single payer - implemented properly - would be best for all concerned.

Businesses AND employees.

Healthcare, energy, and our tax code, are just a few of the important issues of our lives, that have been complicated by design.

We didn't get that, we got a system that's fucked up. Why do you think the approval ratings are soo low?

And my self employed buddy just had his go up over $400 a month with a higher deductible for him and his daughter.

Obama gave speeches on how it was going to go down for everyone

Which Republican is going to run on a Single Payer platform in 2016?

In other news the Administration today announced that the employer mandate will be delayed for at least another year.

That is... until after the 2014 Mid-Term elections

Well Obama said he would run "the most transparent administration in history" and he's living up to that promise, the delay has to be the most transparent politically-motivated change to the ACA so far :1orglaugh

Yup, going to be an interesting Mid-Term :winkwink:

You really think someone is going to quit their job to starve so they can get free Obamacare? I have known people that only reason they stood at their job was because they had an illness or their kid had an illness and if they quit they would lose their coverage. And it wasnt quit to stay home, one was to get a job with a better career ladder and the other wanted to start a flower business. ACA makes it so they can leave that job and still get coverage.
My mom volunteered to help people with nothing and she is a card carrying member of the RNC. She was shocked first how hard gov benefits were for those people to get and how shitty they were. So no one is quitting their job to live on welfare.

And the simple minded liberals are reeling... :1orglaugh
I will understand if none of them come back to this thread. I'd be embarrassed too if I had supported this clown.

First off you cant go by it went up. Chances are he had a policy that covered nothing and now he has real coverage.
Secondly I have paid for my own health insurance since 2000, it has gone up every year and I have had to raise deductibles so I didnt have a gorilla monthly bill. They would tell we are dropping that plan you have go pick another or leave.

Its funny no one bitched about the fucking we all were getting from Insurance companies until Barry came in.

Obama isnt a liberal and I know thats what you are fed and really want to believe but he isnt even close.

Nearly EVERY FUCKING HUMAN BEING in the USA was bitching about rising insurance costs and health care costs before Obama.

Really never saw much talk about it on this board.

LoL none of them.. Republicans never run on "solutions" they don't "fix" things.. They complain, bitch and moan about the other guy and hope it's enough to get them elected..

They don't make bullshit promises of HOPE & CHANGE

I don't think most on this board actually had healthcare.

But I've talked to about 8 people who are age 18-27 that are getting royally screwed. They used to have cheap care that was around $100 a month, now it's going up to about $200 for them. A number of them said they will just pay the fine/tax now and not have healthcare at all.

This is because they earn too much to qualify for subsidies but not enough to really pay the increase.

It's better than the promise of Anger & Pessimism.

here's why they're assholes. One of their main media mouthpieces, Sean Hannity just said -- and I caught this only while flipping channels and stopped on FoX for a minute -- "The NAACP is not for the advancement of colored people". I can only imagine what he's saying the other 59 minutes I'm not watching. This kind of mindset can be dressed up to look like something else during election time, but they won't be able to hide who they really are. Everyone knows they're a bunch of rich, white assholes. And it's oK to be rich and white, but they don't also have to be bigoted, insensitive, unsympathetic or many other negative adjectives that seem to fit them these days. Bob Dole is probably horrified by what his party has become in the last decade.

They don't?

How about Bush telling us that Iraqi oil would pay for the war? That's just off the top of my head and sounds like a pretty bullshit promise that never had a hope or chance in hell of happening..

Sounds fishy to me.. I've never seen a health insurance policy outside of MA that was $100/month. Much less, very many 18 to 20 something's that actually have health insurance.. Accept again in MA..

According to S&S, the average deductible – the amount of money you spend out of pocket before your health insurance kicks in– for plans purchased by a 21-year old man in 2013 was $3,649, bought at an average monthly premium of $144. To purchase a plan with the same deductible now, a 21-year-old would have to pay $261, an 81% increase.

I forgot to mention though, under their new plan if they wanted it, pregnancy would be covered.

wouldn't know what those guys are planning, don't care till they try to pass it

I've had heath care insurance my whole life