TurboAngel

Rochard

I was thinking about this while I was getting ready this morning.... You can feed someone a fish and they'll eat a good meal, or you can teach someone to fish and they can feed themselves for the rest of their lives. The problem is some people just don't want to fish.

I was in line at the Hard Rock Hotel last night checking in and it was a long line. I noticed there was another line for "key pickup". Everyone was tipping this girl - I am guessing $5 a pop (because no one tips someone a buck do they?) This chick must have made $30 while I was standing in line for twenty minutes and all her job fucking requires is a high school education. If you aren't above the poverty level you just aren't trying hard enough.

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pimpmaster9000

poor breeds mostly poor and it has poor habits to pass on and has more children...middle class and rich people reproduce less...

it is impossible to win the war on poverty without putting limits on reproduction and entitlement...

BlackCrayon

What is my theory? that natives live like they do because the reservation system in broken? while i do think it is corrupt, broken and only keeps them down they do not have a culture that values money or jobs. alcoholism is rampant, natives can't handle alcohol.

think about it though, while people from europe were discovering the world and creating cities and new ways of living the natives just lived in the same way they always have. in canada eventually people thought it would be a good idea to take away their children and raise them "right" in christian schools where abuse was the norm, carried out by the good white people. this did not help them.

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TheSquealer

First and foremost, no one is required to live on a reservation. There is nothing "broken" and nothing to "fix". I don't even know what you are talking about when you say "system".

Why is it that people also can't be held accountable for their decisions? For their crime? For their addictions? Why is the only answer "they are in no way to blame for anything they do and any decision they make"?

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Yes, fewer illegal immigrants working equates to more job opportunities for American citizens.

Rochard

mineistaken

That means people should be wealthier now than people from 1980.

mineistaken

This is just an exception, jobs where you get paid 90$/hour with only high school education are not available to 99%+++ people.
I mean maybe she tried hard to get it, but even if everybody tried they would not get anything, simply because there won't be jobs like that for 99% of those trying hard.

Minte

In my view the lazy group has grown after every boom. 30 years ago a person would be embarrassed to receive anything free from the government. I don't think under achievers in society is anything new. There just is too much help and too large of a safety net given now. Remember when it was said..failure is not an option.

Today ,failure is an option and for way too many people.

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kane

State of mind is a big one. I grew up in a small town that was mostly a lumber mill town. Most of the people worked in the mills or logging industry or in the local stores/businesses. If you were a foreman at the mill or had your own logging truck you could make a pretty good living, but many people barely scraped by. There were a lot of poor people and many of them had the attitude that they could never make it out of poverty. It was like, "I grew up poor, I'm going to be poor."

I bash our education system (for good reason), but one thing it does provide is upward mobility. Even if a person went to a shitty high school and has a terrible education they can go to a community college and improve themselves then learn how to do a job or work on getting a degree that could lead them to a better job.

Most people aren't built to run their own business and/or be self employed, but anyone, if they have the desire and drive, can improve their life. Sadly, many people don't think it is possible and don't even try.

crockett

Things have changed quite a bit as well. Schools for instance 50 years ago high school students could go to trade school for part of their schooling. This meant when they left high school they had a skill in which they could get a job. Today, schools treat everyone as if they should go to college. When kids get out of school today,very few of them have any sort of skill to go to work with.

Kids used to leave high school and be employable at machine shops, or construction and so forth, meaning even with out a college education they could get decent jobs. Today, they get a job flopping burgers..

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kane

I don't know if the still have it or not, but when I was in high school in the 80's they had a thing called work experience where seniors could basically take 1-2 fewer classes each semester if they had a job and the job counted as elective credits. They also offered wood shop, metals shop, auto mechanics and other trade skill classes so, in theory, when you graduated you could have some kind of skill and potentially some actual work experience to help you get a job.

Relentless

If by boom you mean population boom or technology boom I fully agree. We do not have jobs suitable to everyone. There will always be jobs for very bright self-motivated well educated people who are creative and trustworthy. There will also be jobs for anyone 7' tall who can dunk. Many people don't fit into either of those groups. The guy who would have been capable of working in the mail room before email existed is not capable of working in the board room just because he is no longer needed. That's not a matter of laziness or retraining. It's a matter of globalization, automation and population. The labor intensive 9-5 40 hour a week retire with a pension and a gold watch after 30 years jobs are gone for many people.

When self-driving vehicles replace every bus driver, limo driver, taxi driver and teamster in the country, watch how many more 'lazy' people suddenly become poor. Blaming them for that is as misguided as blaming them for being unable to dunk.

Do we kill them or care for them? Is there another option?

kane

There is little doubt that the days of getting out of high school, getting a job and working your way up the ladder are gone for many people. Many of those kinds of jobs have moved overseas and those that still exist don't offer much of a future. A person can still do that, but it is a lot harder than it once was. One of the potential factors is that many people are working much later into their lives than they used to. The prospect of being able to retire at a reasonable age has all but dried up for many so now they work well into their 60's. The longer those people decide to continue working that is one fewer job available for an 18-year-old that is fresh out of high school.

Wellness Cash

$15 an hour to flip burgers is the problem.

This is the 'reality' of many who are in the workforce today, they feel they should be able to get paid whatever they want, for doing as little as possible.

There was a study a year or two back that concluded most college kids thought they were going to end up in high paying jobs, even though their actual skillsets didn't lend themselves to menial jobs such as garbage collectors and janitors.

The problem is, when everyone thinks they are doing better than they actually are or, people are raised in a manner consistent with under-privilege, they harm themselves, because they don't see a need to better themselves or, think they can do anything to actually better themselves.

Much like how African-Americans perpetuate the perceived racism in society amongst their young, by telling their children they will be abused, mistreated and not able to get high paying jobs, African American youths will not aspire to do better because they are already raised to believe all they can do is flip burgers, sweep the streets and get low paying jobs.

You tell a child a lie for long enough, no matter what that lie may be and they will start to believe it is a truth.

Just because he grew up in a poor household, that is no reason why he cant aspire to do better than his parents and, his parents should be inspiring him to do better, not telling him he'll never amount to anything thanks to the 'white man holding black man down' or vice-versa as seems to be mentioned more prominently as of late among the white youth.

Bottom line is this, if you are raised as a lazy, government sponging scumbag with no aspirations of greatness, that is all you will ever end up being.

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Cherry7

Interesting reading. Shows how people believe things told to them in spite of the facts which are freely available.

There is very little social mobility. The rich stay rich. The poor have everything stacked against them, family, diet, housing, schooling.

In a society which does not mind a child inheriting billions, or a man who writes a computer program earning again billions. Why should that society not keep people in food and housing?

The guy who invents "facebook" billions, the guy who does medical research - a normal wage.

If the problem is that 20% of the population is lazy, how do you explain periods of full employment. like during and after WW2 ? Did the lazy forget to be lazy?

In the Rhonda Valley in Wales is it an outbreak of laziness that caused the high unemployment? or the fact that they shut down the coal mines?

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HerPimp

It is not "lazy" or a "problem". Many humans are not meant to live the way we do now. I think the natives may have had it right beforehand and are now broken beyond repair.

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kane

How much you earn is relative to a few things: what it is worth and if you own it. Sure, it seems a little crazy that a guy who can shoot a basket or is good at tackling a guy carrying a ball makes millions while an engineer might make a good wage, but it is only a small percentage of what the athlete makes, you have to take those two factors into consideration. First, the engineer likely doesn't own the stuff he is working on or creating. If he wanted to take the risk to start a business and develop it himself he could reap a larger reward. Also, thousands of people don't pay to sit and watch him do his job and millions don't watch him on TV from their homes. I have never wanted to buy a replica engineers anti-static smock (although I have a USB drive signed by Dov Moran), but I have bought team shirts before.

So should the creator of Facebook make millions, if not billions? Why not? He owns it and millions of people are using it. Why shouldn't he benefit from it?

Sure, upward mobility is limited to a point. Capitalism is a pyramid. The higher up you go the fewer opportunities there are for you to climb higher yet. That said, there is a huge difference between learning a trade/skill and/or going to college to get an education and using those things to land a job that may end up paying you a nice wage and starting business and growing it.

It takes a certain type of person to be self-employed. Most people don't have that in them for whatever reason. So for them upward mobility is limited. They will be limited to the best job they can get and the best wage that this job can pay. The person willing to strike out on their own, create something and start a business have a larger potential scale when it comes to their upward mobility.

Lazy also doesn't mean unemployed. There are plenty of lazy people with jobs that do just enough to not get fired, but have no ambition to improve their position.

kane

Please expound on this.

In what way are we living in a way that we were not meant to?

Minte

I was referencing economic booms. Right now is a good example. We are still lingering in a recession, yet people that probably can't afford tats and iphones have them. Priorities shifted after every boom ended. Poor people today can get tats and iphones because the government continues to supply those folks more of the essentials.

What will happen when the amount of jobs decrease to that point? I honestly don't care. It won't happen in my lifetime. What happens 50 years from now is for those alive to debate. All we can do now is speculate.

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Cherry7

Because if you pay billions to reward an idea of little value other things don't get done. No cure for cancer, malaria, or the basics that people don't have fresh water, homes, food.

It is a matter of proportion. The guy made a neat program not e=mc2.

The reward was totally out of proportion to the value.

A society that wanted to give all its children an equal chance could do so in a heart beat.

Send the poorest 7% of children to the private schools and the children of the rich to the poorest state schools.

In the future humans will not believe that we sent the most privalaged children to the best schools and then blamed the poor for failure.

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TheSquealer

You do not even understand the most basic fundamentals of macroeconomics. I suppose the makes sense as the idiocy of your arguments rely heavily on that basic fact.

Mark Zuckerburg makes... say 4 Billion dollars.

Where do you think that money is? Under his mattress? In his wallet? Buried in his backyard?

What is that money doing right now?

Do you have any idea at all?

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Yes, fewer illegal immigrants working equates to more job opportunities for American citizens.

Rochard

Rochard

Maybe not at $90 an hour, but I was a high school drop out and at one point I was working three or four crappy jobs at the same time just to make ends mean, and I surely wasn't living like a king - Shared apartment, crappy used car with a car payment, etc... After a year or two of this I was exhausted and knew I had to do something different.

I ended up working for the phone company. This was back in 1991 or 1992; Starting pay for an entry level position was $14/hour. Then factor in split differentials (working four hours, having four hours off, then working four more hours), more money for working past 6pm, overtime, and then later on the supervisor bonus..... I was making about $25/hour. That's not bad money for a high school drop out.

These jobs are out there.

The problem is some people will just never rise up to the challenge and move to get ahead.

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Minte

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BlackCrayon

by system i mean the way the funding is doled out to the bands, for example one band in canada got a lot of heat last year for getting millions in funding that could never be accounted for while their people live in trailers with no heat or running water. there needs to be more accountability for how the money is spent ensuring that if they are going to get it, it's spent properly.

but i know how you think. fuck everyone, no one deserves help or any handouts, you just expect people to suck it up. well guess what, that is no going to work no matter how high you hold your nose in the air at these people. its a cultural problem that needs help and understanding to change. not ignorance and apathy.

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TheSquealer

I don't think that way at all. It's just what you tell yourself to help convince yourself of the moral superiority of your own one-sided views and so that you can easily dismiss any arguments or facts which might inconveniently challenge them.

I don't know anything about Canadian natives and how or why the government is supporting them. I do know plenty about Alaska natives. I also know this is the year 2014. Not 1700. They aren't trying to live in the forest and subsist on seal meat. They have jobs, homes, cars and flat screen tv's. Though they have that option to live in the forest and follow tradition, they elect not to... and that fact seems to be universal. And though they have every opportunity in the world to take advantage of all the assistance available to them.. it doesn't seem to improve the circumstances of those it's meant to improve.

You rationalize me asking the simple question... which you apparently have no answer for.... "at what point is the individual responsible for their own circumstances" by telling me that my attitude is "Fuck everyone" and stating that i "look down my noses at them".

Makes sense.

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Yes, fewer illegal immigrants working equates to more job opportunities for American citizens.

Rochard

BlackCrayon

you often come across like you are better than others, i know you've stated this isn't you at all but its totally how you come off. i don't have all or really any answers. i just know there are a lot of problems and relying on the idea that everyone should be responsible for themselves, which ideally they should, just isn't going to work. i think everyone is always responsible for their own circumstances to a degree. your parents circumstances will also help determine your own. sure you can 'just move' but its easier said than done for a lot of people. fact is a lot of people are fucked up and hopeless and unless someone gives a shit they're just going to continue to be fucked up and hopeless. its not your fault or my fault but its happening and telling people they should be responsible for themselves isn't going to change anything.

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tony286

The problem is wages are flat. You spoke about paying your starting or the avg wage I dont remember which was $11 an hour. My starting wage at gm in 1984. Wages are flat but everything got much more expensive. To call them lazy is easy.
also as far as gov handouts, I assume after you were in the service your college was paid for with the GI bill. You said no to child tax credit for your kids?

Relentless

That is where we differ the most. It is already happening. It won't be a sudden binary change in the future, it will continue to be a gradual deterioration and it is happening right now in our lifetimes. It will also affect people I care about, long after I am gone. Waiting for a 'tipping point' is missing the point completely.

Governmental changes take decades to filter out, revise and enhance policy. Even if we all agreed on the specifics of a better health care system it would still be 10+ years before we got it right in practice. Sorting out Immigration reform isn't going to take a few weeks or months. That doesn't mean we shouldn't do it, it means if we want it done we had best get the development cycle started on the things that will impact everyone.

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TheSquealer

I dont think i am better than anyone. I think i am a cog in a massive machine and completely irrelevant.

What I object to is the lack of balance in the conversation of helping others. "we need to help" is never balanced with "this is what we expect of you" and "we believe you can do it"

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Yes, fewer illegal immigrants working equates to more job opportunities for American citizens.

Rochard

HerPimp

Humans were found all over the world. They were all different and had their own ideas of how to live life. They were conquered and now forced to live a life that is not natural to them. It is like taking a lion and saying why is not acting like a house cat. You can try second and third generation baby lion to become a house cat but you see the results...

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crockett

Yes they had that at my high school. I actually gamed the system and started a lawn business while I was in high school using that program. I used to take care of a lot of lawns in a old folks trailer park and the head maintenance guy used to sign all my papers for the school. I'm pretty sure the teacher knew what was up but she didn't say anything. I ended up running that business for about 10 years. I bought my first house from that business.

crockett

This is where the wishful thinking people somehow believe everyone will be granted a livable income.. Myself, I think these people will be living in tent cities..

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Cherry7

Yes you make a very simple point that money moves. But what it gives the rich is the power of where and what the money does.

Nerd Zuckenburg decides what happens to $4,000,000,000 worth of societies assets not society, it goes to what Zuckenburg wants not what is needed.

Hence the USA, one of the richest countries in the world, your inner cities look like they were bombed, your health care is worse than Cuba, and your education system worse than Poland,

You live in a country where the majority believe in Angels !!!

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kane

What makes you think things will change in the future? Since the beginning of recorded history those who have more have sent their kids to the best schools and supplied their families with the best things. You think this will change? How so? Who in the future is going to force those with more money to send their kids to the poorest schools?

The creator of Facebook has made the money he has because society has deemed the product that valuable. Millions of people worldwide use that site and thus the creator of it has reaped the benefits of having millions of customers. If society really wanted to focus on stamping out cancer they would do it. Every person would find a group that is working to discover a cure and donate money to them. One of the problems is that instead of having one group focusing on fixing the issue there are multiple groups competing for the cure and there are entire businesses making millions raising money to defeat cancer. Personally I have more outrage over people like the Susan G. Komen foundation that raises millions for breast cancer research and only gives a tiny percentage of the money to the actual research while paying CEOs millions, flying in private jets and having offices in skyscrapers, than I do a guy who created a website and made millions from it.

You are correct that if society wanted to give every child an equal chance they could. But they don't. This isn't as much "the man" holding them down, it is them deciding what they want to do and not what to do. All over the nation cities and local districts vote down school budgets. Many people don't give a damn about their local schools. A city could easily come together, oust those who are not helping the situation and raise money to make the school as good as possible, but it is not easy. Many people simply don't care. I don't see that changing anytime soon.

You seem to have some vision that the future will be some utopian society where everyone has an equal change and the meek will inherit the earth. Why do you think this will happen when our history shows that it simply is not the case?

Minte

Tony, Not sure why you want to make this about me? However, I am a perfect example of what should happen when you use government money. And to keep it real. The GI bill is not a handout.
Anyhow, I did use the GI bill for school, and look what it achieved. I wouldn't even be in business without my engineering degree. And I wouldn't have my degree without the GI bill.

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TheSquealer

I understand how money "moves around". You do not understand. I understand "his" money is what banks are lending to people like you to buy cars, houses to fund business, investment, construction and is creating jobs and still driving the economy.

He and Facebook have paid many Billions in taxes. How many hundreds did you pay?

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Yes, fewer illegal immigrants working equates to more job opportunities for American citizens.

Rochard

mikesinner

yep, Reagan fucked everything up and he is worshiped almost as a saint in America so we are doomed until people here start thinking differently.

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Cherry7

What makes you think things will change in the future? Since the beginning of recorded history those who have more have sent their kids to the best schools and supplied their families with the best things. You think this will change? How so? Who in the future is going to force those with more money to send their kids to the poorest schools?

The French Revolution

The American revolution

The Russian Revolution

The creator of Facebook has made the money he has because society has deemed the product that valuable.

Society was never asked. The Cocaine cartels could say the same. The market is blind and you can make a fortune selling, burgers that destroy childrens' health, drugs or popular computer programs. It is a dictatorship of the rich.

You are correct that if society wanted to give every child an equal chance they could. But they don't. This isn't as much "the man" holding them down, it is them deciding what they want to do and not what to do. All over the nation cities and local districts vote down school budgets.

People all over the world have been struggling for social justice, equal opportunities, education and health care. Is their access to impartial independant news? Or are all main sources of information controlled by corporations?
The US working class was smashed and as seen here full of the ideas of the Ruling junta.



You seem to have some vision that the future will be some utopian society where everyone has an equal change and the meek will inherit the earth. Why do you think this will happen when our history shows that it simply is not the case?

All through the 50s and 60s the USA was a potent model for World development. Do you think that is true now?

capitalism is its own worse enemy, now it is not in competetion with the Soviets its running wild, provoking the worse economic crash in a hundred years, plus an ecological nightmare.

Either mankind controls markets or the markets will run the planet into the abyss.

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Cherry7

It is strange how you can believe that 1% of the population can own 50% of the wealth of a nation, and yet miners, farmers, cleaners, produce vital real things and our poor their whole lives.

So you think that the Kings of feudal times could do what they wanted with "their" money? After all they were the clever ones owns holding power.

I believe the American Revolution was against that concentration of wealth and power into few hands.

If your congress which is run by the rich allows rich people to rig the system to rob the poor is it really "their" money?

When you are robbed it is still your money except you have lost it.

Americans are robbed everyday and don't even know it.

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Minte

You are wrong. We know we are being robbed by the federal government and no one is happy about it either.

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kane

I won't speak on the French and Russian, but the American Revolution didn't suddenly make everything equal in the US, it just allowed us to determine our own leadership free from the British.

Society was in fact asked. The site was created and millions decided to use it. Not just that, but it was a perfect example of competition because at the time Facebook was created Myspace was the king of that space and people decided that Facebook was better and that they wanted to use it.

Had nobody used the site it would have faded away and its creator would have made nothing.

I won't argue that the US working class has been smashed. Read my first post in this thread. I say right in it one of the reasons that we have so many poor people is that wages have been stagnant for 30 years while the cost of other things has gone way up.



Pure capitalism cannot succeed, nor can pure communism, pure socialism ect. When left unregulated people will do terrible things to others for the sake of profit. I don't think it is capitalism as a whole that is the worry, it is more our banking system that allows some people to take huge risks in order to produce money out of thin air that is one of our biggest problems. When lose it can cause all kinds of problems as we saw when the economy recently collapsed.

signupdamnit

Our society thinks of people in poverty as "defective". When you have an attitude such as this it is no wonder you don't win. You aren't identifying root causes. You aren't fixing anything. You're just throwing a little bit of money at the problem and doing nothing to prevent it from growing.

I've read many of your posts in the past and maybe I'm out of line and maybe I'm wrong but I get the feeling your question is rhetorical and like most GOP advocates you're trying to bring up the "waste of money". IOW "See we spent millions and it failed so let's stop trying to help these bums". This is another reason why things never get better. It's all attitude. No not just the impoverished but all of us. We make it fail.

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kane

I think one of the reasons few things change is that there area always differing opinions on how to change them so finding a middle ground can be very difficult.

Look at the war on the drugs. By pretty much all standards it is a failure. We have spent trillions of dollars and put millions of people in jail yet the number of kids trying and using drugs is about the same as is the number of overall users. Yet, we continue to do it and the ideas on how to maybe deal with the issues are all over the spectrum.

The same can be said with poverty. Some will say that you can solve poverty by giving the poor free education and helping them find good jobs. Others will just say to give them money and housing and take care of them. Still others will say fuck 'em, don't give them anything and it will motivate them work harder and lift themselves from the bottom.

The reality is that in a capitalist system there will always be poor people. It just works that way. The hope is that there is a way for those who want out of that situation to have a pathway out and those who are in that situation to have options so they can, at the very least, live a decent life and have access to healthcare, housing, food etc.

Cherry7

You asked me what makes me think things will change and I gave you the answer of radical change in the past.

People buying is not deciding the way society uses its wealth. It is just deciding how they spend their pennies.

The power of the working class was smashed = their trade unions and political parties.

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PornoMonster

Society Decided to give it to Him....

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kane

So you think that some day the poor will rise up, take the wealth from the rich and redistribute among themselves or create a society that better serves them?

Cherry7

It has happened in the past, it is a good idea and capitalism left on its own seems incapable of producing a staple fair society.

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clickhappy

Exactly. You can have anything you want...if you inherit it like she did.

And btw there has been poverty since the beginning of time, Even George Washington gave speeches on it. Poverty will never ever ever go away in out lifetime. Maybe in the future when the world is like Star Trek, but not in our world.

clickhappy

How do poor people "take the wealth from the rich"? They break into rich peoples bank accounts and do transfers into their own or something?

BenDrey666

poverty will always be... no fucker in the government is interested in solving the problem, poor people can't start a war, and they don't have the time to think about revolution, because they're busy with how to survive.