Business Thread: One reason sales are down that nobody ever discusses. Your Thoughts?

[Adam_M]

Was the keynote Gary V? Sounds like him from your remarks and I love that guy.

So much has changed in this and every other online business over the past 7 years. As in most any industry the first years are full of fast money and little to no rules, over time things settle get more competitive and mature. In the early days I remember a guy sitting at the bar at Internext talking about how easy it was, submit a gallery to thehun and BOOM 20 to 30 sale, my first thought was that we best get in quick because easy money never lasts.

I think customers service and quality produce will stand the test of time no mater what happens in ours or any other industry and that has been my primary focus for the past 3 or 4 years. I think that mentality has paid off with 2013 being one of my best ever and I am really looking forward to what 2014 brings with some exciting new projects.

As far as SEO goes it is a lot like the other parts on the online business, more rules, less cowboys and coming back again to a quality product. Google knows exactly what's happening on your site and if you think you can trick them with a bunch of inbound links and scam tactics then I would think again because it has no future.

Nice to hear from you Shap and shoot me and Email or IM some time so we can talk.

Happy New Year to all

[The Porn Nerd]

Originally Posted by TheSquealer

You came full circle back to attacking your own customers again. This is why if put my money on shap and why I would say that until you stop making these false distinctions and lose the contempt, your success will only be fleeting and you have no chance of bullding anything great.

LOL I should be flattered that people misunderstand me so. Let me ask you a question, a serious one now, regarding casinos:

As polite and respectful and considerate and helpful as they may be towards their casino guests do you think they do or do not realize their customer base is a bunch of degenerate gamblers?

Of course they do. But they still come across as polite, respectful, and oh so helpful, even to the most degenerate of degenerates. What lesson do we gleam from this?

Simple: know your customer. UNDERSTAND him (or her). Cater to them, give them what they want, HELP them - but never forget WHO they are. This knowledge will help you sell to them better, protect yourself better and help you (and your customers) stick around for years to come.

Here on GFY I am being honest to "industry insiders". Please show me where, on any of my websites, that I do not utterly and absolutely respect my customers? You can't because I DO respect them. But I also know what "pushes their buttons".

Also, you are assuming that my thinking of them as "degenerates' (word du jour) is a BAD thing. LOL I LOVE degenerates, they've made me rich(ish)! That's also why I love GFY: pre-conceived notions go both ways here.

Finally, I think having a realistic understanding of WHO your customers really are is much better for business than some "pie in the sky/all customers are the same" bullshit but that's just me. If anyone here thinks there's not a differance between selling porn and selling vacuum cleaners try announcing what you do to a roomful of strangers and see the reacion. We all tend to have blinders on around here cause we're all, to some degree, a bunch of fucking degenerates. God Bless us All.

Originally Posted by fuzebox

Wow.

Having a sex drive makes you a degenerate now?

When you Join 'Teen Cum Guzzlers' to relieve that sex drive then yes.

[TheSquealer]

Originally Posted by The Porn Nerd

LOL I should be flattered that people misunderstand me so. Let me ask you a question, a serious one now, regarding casinos:

As polite and respectful and considerate and helpful as they may be towards their casino guests do you think they do or do not realize their customer base is a bunch of degenerate gamblers?

Of course they do. But they still come across as polite, respectful, and oh so helpful, even to the most degenerate of degenerates. What lesson do we gleam from this?

Simple: know your customer. UNDERSTAND him (or her). Cater to them, give them what they want, HELP them - but never forget WHO they are. This knowledge will help you sell to them better, protect yourself better and help you (and your customers) stick around for years to come.

I am honestly a bit shocked at this reasoning. It seems quite bizarre to me that someone in business would have that attitude about their own customers.

And no... I do not believe that the Bellagio in Vegas is looking at all their guests and patrons as "degenerate gamblers". They are look at them as anyone in any hospitality business looks at them. Like they are gold. Like they are guests. Like they are people that expect to be treated well, respected, valued and they expect their stay and experience to be perfect.

It's definitely bizarre that you would think that if someone turns left on the strip, they are a 'degenerate'... if they turn right, they are just a normal, respectable person.

At this point, i am starting to believe that you have some major problems with your own choices in terms of what you do and you are projecting. People who join your sites are teachers, doctors, lawyers, hotel managers etc etc etc. It's quite odd to me that you fail to see that and have this need to insist otherwise... that anyone seeking to fulfill a basic human need, enhance their marital sex life or maybe just finds themselves alone and coming to you for a product, is somehow a "degenerate".


You are really misunderstanding what we are saying. We are talking about your attitude and beliefs towards your customers. Not where you pretend and act as if you feel otherwise on your sites.

One can ask a similar question of you, as you asked.. "what company grew to be a billion dollar company that viewed its customers as "degenerates". The answer is pretty obvious. It's not about who the customers are, its about the personalities, beliefs and convictions of those who are running the companies.

[TheSquealer]

And really man... people are shaking their heads at you and you won't retreat. You dig in and keep arguing a point to which you originally said we "misunderstood". You even told shap to fuck off even over his "misunderstanding" of your comments. And here you are back to arguing the same points that we originally picked up on and thought was very odd.

You can scream all day long that you are a great driver and talk about your record... but when people start honking and flipping you off more and more... you have to at some point ask "whats going on here? is it everyone else... or is it me?"

[The Porn Nerd]

Originally Posted by TheSquealer

And really man... people are shaking their heads at you and you won't retreat. You dig in and keep arguing a point to which you originally said we "misunderstood". You even told shap to fuck off even over his "misunderstanding" of your comments. And here you are back to arguing the same points that we originally picked up on and thought was very odd.

You can scream all day long that you are a great driver and talk about your record... but when people start honking and flipping you off more and more... you have to at some point ask "whats going on here? is it everyone else... or is it me?"

Wow. OK. So people who own bars don't think that a certain percentage of their customers are alcoholics? Of course they do, and they have measures in place to "deal with" customers like this. This doesn't mean the bartender or owner disrespects the alcoholic or even judges him, is just aware that his product (alcohol) can attract a certain "type" of customer.

How is this any differant in adult? Again, I think you read what you want to read here and ignore the parts where I said a casino would treat EVERYONE with respect, courtesy, etc, but to think the casino owner doesn't know his customers (a certain percentage, and a big enough one to factor in) are degenerate gamblers who would make their mothers blow a homeless man for $10 so they can keep on gamblin' you are the one who's naive friend.

AGAIN (and seriously for the last time) you are assuming that my thinking porn customers are 'degenerates' is a BAD THING. It is not. Thank GOD they have urges and sick, perverted desires. LOL Otherwise I'd be selling shoes.

Oh - and because I call them 'perverted disgusting degenerates' you think I am looking down on them? Dude, I spent 20 years in the music biz around junkies and douschebags. I LIKE these kinds of people. While I realize a certain percentage of my customers are doctors, lawyers, teachers, etc, this does not make them NOT degenerates. LOL Have you SEEN the porn some people whack off to? OMG OMG OMG. If you think everyone is whacking it to loving displays of human sexuality please grow up. LOL

Really, this whole discussion is silly. My moral characterizations do not play into my business in a negative way but rather is quite helpful in knowing who my customers are. Unlike most (I guess) I can hold two positions at once. meaning, while I may not want to hang out with someone who joins Screw My Wife Club (because, chances are, they're swingers) doesn't mean I hold anything against them for being swingers. Capiche? probably not. LOL

Carry on.

[TheSquealer]

Originally Posted by The Porn Nerd

AGAIN (and seriously for the last time) you are assuming that my thinking porn customers are 'degenerates' is a BAD THING. It is not. Thank GOD they have urges and sick, perverted desires. LOL Otherwise I'd be selling shoes.

Yes., It is a bad thing. It's not something anyone is assuming. We are telling you its a bad thing. You are completely alone in the business world in your beliefs.

Again,... with all the rationalizations and analogies. We all understand what you are saying. We understood you the very first time you made those remarks... though you kept insisting we "misunderstand". If you can't understand or accept the problems inherent in looking down on your own customers and even overtly displaying contempt for them, then there is really nothing more that can be said.

[TheSquealer]

Originally Posted by The Porn Nerd

Really, this whole discussion is silly. My moral characterizations do not play into my business in a negative way but rather is quite helpful in knowing who my customers are.

It plays directly into your business and how your decisions are made and how you conduction yourself and sell your product as it frames your thinking and is the prism you are looking through... and the prism through which you see the very people you are trying to do business with.

[ruff]

Well, I get the gist of the thread. Thanks Shap. It got me thinking. Can't hurt to get into the customer service thing inside the members area. At least give the new and rebilling members the option of participating, suggesting, contacting, interacting as they wish. It's not whether they do or not, it is that they have the option to. Happy New Year to everyone here.

[The Porn Nerd]

Originally Posted by TheSquealer

It plays directly into your business and how your decisions are made and how you conduction yourself and sell your product as it frames your thinking and is the prism you are looking through... and the prism through which you see the very people you are trying to do business with.

I see the problem now. You are assuming my comments mean I have "contempt" for my customers. I think you (and others) are bringing their knee-jerk moral baggage with them on this one and it is YOU who are filtering things through your own moral prism. You see - well, maybe you don't - I can call someone a drug addict degenerate gambler whore and not think that's a bad thing or that it is an expression of contempt. I am EXTREMELY liberal. No - it is you (and others) who are making moral equivalencies here, connecting the word 'degenerate' with 'bad' (or 'contempt' to use your word). Maybe you were raised a Catholic?

For me, being a former journalist, I see things as 'reality' and sometimes that is very ugly indeed. If I see someone gambling at 4 am for nine days straight and has just sold his watch so he can gamble some more while his wife and kids are at home wondering where daddy is I call that person a....class? A degenerate gambling fucktard dousche. Now, if I ran the casino, what would I do? Would my thinking change? "That guy is WONDERFUL! Keep playing, fuck the family..."? C'mon now. The final step here, tho, is that, ultimately, this daddy who's gambling at 4 am? It's HIS choice. He has a right, tho I object to it, to do so. Perhaps I would encourage him to stop gambling and go feed his family but, ultimately, it is his choice. I would not throw him out of the casino but rather provide him EXCELLENT Customer Service.

How ANY of this is reflected in my business, how I conduct it or how my Members are treated I have no idea. LOL

Lines are drawn all the time and I am expressing a very subtle disctinction. Some people will not sell certain types of (legal) porn. Why is that? Because they personally object to it. So this makes them, in your eyes, what? According to you (and others) I am somehow incapable of thinking someone who watches porn I dislike is a sick fuck while at the same time defending his rights to watch it. It's called NIMBY and is a very real philisophical perspective. So please show me how all I've written here 'filers down' to my members, somehow causing them to....what, cancel quicker?

Originally Posted by ruff

Well, I get the gist of the thread. Thanks Shap. It got me thinking. Can't hurt to get into the customer service thing inside the members area. At least give the new and rebilling members the option of participating, suggesting, contacting, interacting as they wish. It's not whether they do or not, it is that they have the option to. Happy New Year to everyone here.

Happy New Year Ruff!!!

[TheSquealer]

You're correct. We are all messed up. We are all incorrectly "assuming" as you've repeatedly stated. We all "misunderstand" you as you've repeatedly stated. You are the only one who see's anything with clarity. You are the only one who "understands" for a wide variety of reasons you've outlined.

Got it finally.

[The Porn Nerd]

Originally Posted by TheSquealer

You're correct. We are all messed up. We are all incorrectly "assuming" as you've repeatedly stated. We all "misunderstand" you as you've repeatedly stated. You are the only one who see's anything with clarity. You are the only one who "understands" for a wide variety of reasons you've outlined.

Got it finally.

OK I deserved that. What I guess I was going for is that you disagree with me on a fundamental level and that's ok. It doesn't bother me as my viewpoints are often extremely nuanced. I am indeed an enigma. LOL

The real problem that set me off is Shap assuming (and yourself as well, I assume heh) that because I hold these beliefs about people who buy and enjoy porn that then I must somehow think it's all right to fuck them over, exploit them, disrespect them, bang their cards and such. That is what I was trying to explain, that I can be a 100% upstanding businessman and treat my members like gold while still holding these (internal) beliefs. If I didn't make my point I apologize for antagonizing anyone.

[TheSquealer]

haha.. .a quasi apology where you can't resist again trying to beat the point home that everyone "assumed" incorrectly which "caused" you to act a certain way. Is it possible that you have made your view piercingly clear and we just disagree with it? I thought that's all there was to this exchange.

Thanks,... i guess

[The Porn Nerd]

Originally Posted by TheSquealer

haha.. .a quasi apology where you can't resist again trying to beat the point home that everyone "assumed" incorrectly which "caused" you to act a certain way. Is it possible that you have made your view piercingly clear and we just disagree with it? I thought that's all there was to this exchange.

Thanks,... i guess

Yes of course and we will leave it there. I can't help but feel you are incorrectly assuming things but that's okay, this isn't a therapy session. Haha!!

(Damn, there I go again. Sorry.)

[fuzebox]

On one hand, I also disagree with Mr Peabody. On the other hand, I usually think I know better than most of GFY. Oh the conflict!

[Ramster]

Originally Posted by EddyTheDog

OK - That's total BS - That's why 'wow'...

You asked.....

Do you think that Twistys' customers have been treated well?..

Come on Shap - You know that they have been fucked as well as I do - If not then again - WOW.....

Really? Twistys members get more exclusive content than they did when Shap sold. Manwin spends more on content then when Shap owned them, I KNOW, I worked for Shap and for Manwin now. Guys like you talk out of your ass and you have NO idea what the heck you're talking about, it's laughable.

Now I will add this, just late December Manwin did reduce the content updates, but for the first 2.5 YEARS they left everything the same.

[Shap]

Originally Posted by Adam_M

Was the keynote Gary V? Sounds like him from your remarks and I love that guy.

So much has changed in this and every other online business over the past 7 years. As in most any industry the first years are full of fast money and little to no rules, over time things settle get more competitive and mature. In the early days I remember a guy sitting at the bar at Internext talking about how easy it was, submit a gallery to thehun and BOOM 20 to 30 sale, my first thought was that we best get in quick because easy money never lasts.

I think customers service and quality produce will stand the test of time no mater what happens in ours or any other industry and that has been my primary focus for the past 3 or 4 years. I think that mentality has paid off with 2013 being one of my best ever and I am really looking forward to what 2014 brings with some exciting new projects.

As far as SEO goes it is a lot like the other parts on the online business, more rules, less cowboys and coming back again to a quality product. Google knows exactly what's happening on your site and if you think you can trick them with a bunch of inbound links and scam tactics then I would think again because it has no future.

Nice to hear from you Shap and shoot me and Email or IM some time so we can talk.

Happy New Year to all

Sure was Gary V

[Shap]

Last 45 seconds of this is solid

[Shap]

Originally Posted by Ramster

Really? Twistys members get more exclusive content than they did when Shap sold. Manwin spends more on content then when Shap owned them, I KNOW, I worked for Shap and for Manwin now. Guys like you talk out of your ass and you have NO idea what the heck you're talking about, it's laughable.

Now I will add this, just late December Manwin did reduce the content updates, but for the first 2.5 YEARS they left everything the same.

The hatred people have for Manwin is so great they have no desire to have any conversation that does anything but discuss how horrible manwin is.

[Huge]

Originally Posted by The Porn Nerd

When you Join 'Teen Cum Guzzlers' to relieve that sex drive then yes.

Actually that is rather normal, but 'Granny Bukkake POV Jizz-Fest' would probably be considered degenerate. There's probably a sliding scale somewhere.

[xxxjay]

I have more sales to my programs that I've had since 2008, I've just been doing it quietly because there's a not a lot going on here.

See sig.

[TheMaster]

Originally Posted by xxxjay

I have more sales to my programs that I've had since 2008, I've just been doing it quietly because there's a not a lot going on here.

See sig.

off topic: would be interesting to see those sponsor conversion stats you used to publish years ago, to see what happened throughout the years

for me there was a giant shift for paysites in 2013, programs converting at 30% of what they did all the years before or worse, the other day I noticed Mofos dropped to 7% of what it did for me in 2012

[xxxjay]

Originally Posted by TheMaster

off topic: would be interesting to see those sponsor conversion stats you used to publish years ago, to see what happened throughout the years

for me there was a giant shift for paysites in 2013, programs converting at 30% of what they did all the years before or worse, the other day I noticed Mofos dropped to 7% of what it did for me in 2012

I have just shifted my strategy from relying on affiliates to using all in-house traffic through whatever it be tube uploads, media buys, blog networks, etc... I still deal with affiliates but I preferred to do it on a case-by-case basis and only deal with big guys. For them I will make any kind of custom tour, price point, or whatever they need. I just finest works better.

[AdultB2B]

Originally Posted by Shap

I was recently in attendance at a tech conference keynote where the speaker discussed that many mainstream companies are now struggling online. In the past most online companies relied on mailing, seo and banner advertising as their bread and butter. Those days are long gone. Mailing open rates continue to decline, seo has completely changed and banner click thru rates continue to decline as well. Each of these three areas not only yielded great results but were FAST results. They were easy results. You didn't have to work very hard for them relatively speaking. The companies doing well today are those companies that have invested time and money in developing relationships with their clients.

As I sat their listening to this it really hit home. This has happened in adult as well. A large majority of adult companies that had great success were very successful at banner advertising, seo and mailing. How many adult companies have develop relationships with their existing customers? I would say very few. How many of them spend time developing relationships with prospective clients? Even fewer. I know when I ran Twistys and GayTube I made sure the entire team knew the importance of the customer, the relationship we had with them and making sure they were happy. On Twistys I spent a lot of time on the Members Forum discussing everything from suggestions to complaints to ideas to site upgrades. It was very important to me that the members knew I cared and more importantly I appreciated them as a customer. We didn't always see eye to eye but I cared about them. I think that played a huge role in Twistys weathering the tube storm that hurt many pay sites. I didn't do near enough with non members but the mentality was there and I know if I ran it today I'd have a number of strategies in place to really connect with people and get a huge following for the brand/site.

I thought up of a few starting points for anybody who would wants to try to improve their business in 2014.

#1. If you don't respect your customer change your thinking NOW! He's not a dirty porn surfer. He's not a loser. He's your customer and if you are a pay site he's made the decision to share some of his hard earned money with you. If you were walking down the street and a stranger walked up to you and gave you $25 or the next time you go out to eat some stranger picks up the bill for you. Would you appreciate it? Of course. Would you thank them? Of course. Why not do the same with your members?

#2 Make sure you are close to whoever does your customer support. Don't outsource you customer support. Customer support holds the answer to many of your problems and can give you the pulse of your industry. Make sure you have control of it and full access at all times to all support tickets.

#3 Know when a certain segment of the market is growing and when it's declining. Mailing can still be profitable but it's not going to make a comeback. Know that you will most likely see decreasing returns on mailing from today moving forward. Also know that there are new areas that open up daily for you to explore. Is your brand on Twitter? On other adult friendly social media platforms? Are you working those platforms properly? Or are you applying the same tactics across all of them? Ie are you blasting the same content in the same way across Twitter, Tumblr, Instagram, and Facebook? or are you catering to each market and what works best on each?

#4 Do you have any way to communicate with your customers and do you know much about them? Ie Do you know who your best customers are? Where did you get them? What other sites do your customers like? etc etc

Those are just a few quickies. If any of you want to discuss this more by all means let's discuss it. If you'd like any direct feedback for your particular situation I'd be more than happy to try to drum up a couple of ideas for you.

I'd love to know what your thoughts are on this. Fire away

Happy Holidays and a Happy and Prosperous 2014 to you all

Shap, this is might be the best and most useful post I've seen on a board. Not surprised it came from you.

Everything you say is true and they are things I continually preach to my marketing clients.

It's important to constantly interact with the customer, to let them know they are important and to regularly survey them to get their thoughts on how you can improve your business.

BRAVO!!!

Btw, hit me up if you would, long time since we talked!!!

[xxxjay]

So much misinformation on this thread.

Your attitude should be like a stripper: Make most amount of money from your customers as can and leave them with the familiar pangs of guilt associated with adult entertainment. You can still trick Google with inbound links, you can make money on tube traffic, and all of the old-school marketing tactics still work: They've just transmogrified some.

Check your morals at the door, do what makes you the most money, and remember that all of your peers filthy pornographers as well.

How do I know all this you might ask?

I got more sales today than I've seen in five years and I didn't need a big "holier than thou" dog-and-pony show to do it.

[Shap]

Originally Posted by xxxjay

So much misinformation on this thread.

Your attitude should be like a stripper: Make most amount of money from your customers as can and leave them with the familiar pangs of guilt associated with adult entertainment. You can still trick Google with inbound links, you can make money on tube traffic, and all of the old-school marketing tactics still work: They've just transmogrified some.

Check your morals at the door, do what makes you the most money, and remember that all of your peers filthy pornographers as well.
I
How do I know all this you might ask?

I got more sales today than I've seen in five years and I didn't need a big "holier than thou" dog-and-pony show to do it.

By all means please inform us all with the your wisdom and clear up all the misinformation here. I'd love to hear it

[The Porn Nerd]

Originally Posted by Shap

By all means please inform us all with the your wisdom and clear up all the misinformation here. I'd love to hear it

Life Lesson #232: Never trust someone with 'XXX' in their name.

[xxxjay]

Originally Posted by Shap

By all means please inform us all with the your wisdom and clear up all the misinformation here. I'd love to hear it

We have both been around this industry long enough to know neither one of us is newbies. However, my attitude would've been quite in line with yours if you had asked me even a year ago.

Look up to who the big people are in adult now I'm talking about the Manwin's / Think Geek (or whatever there calling themselves now), they are an empire built upon one simple premise: Theft of other people's content to create a huge traffic empire that would eventually control all of the traffic and much of the business in adult. I'm sure you are familiar with these guys.

For years, I have been one of the dissenting voices against their practices and encouraged people in the industry to organize to fight the obvious problem the tubes were causing legitimate program owners, content owners, and webmasters. You see where that all got us. Never underestimate our industries inability to organize or combat an obvious problem before it's too late.

Now rather than bitch about it, I've turned to the dark side and have been effectively buying their traffic and making money off it, I'm not saying that it's the best business model, but it converts and I make all lot more money than I was before, I'm just doing it quietly now.

Originally Posted by The Porn Nerd

Life Lesson #232: Never trust someone with 'XXX' in their name.

Never trust a person with "porn" in their name either. The fact is, I've been around this industry since 1997 and I've built three successful businesses and sold them without ripping off one single solitary webmaster, other company or business partner...look me up. With all due respect, go fuck yourself you ass-kissing newb.

[bronco67]

I think to make a good product, you also need to be a fan of that product. Meaning, the people who make the best porn also love porn and make it for themselves mostly. Just like the best mainstream film directors. Martin Scorcese isn't making movies for a paycheck. The success and paycheck is a by-product of his unbearable need to tell stories in his own way.

Buttman loves asses. Anyone else who loves asses will love his work. It just seems like a simple concept to me.

[xxxjay]

Originally Posted by bronco67

Meaning, the people who make the best porn also love porn

#Thuth!!!!

[DannyA]

I'll say this coming from only working in the mainstream for a bunch of years now. Take a look at YouTube, Google, Facebook and look at the ads. The data that drives this spans the entire spectrum of available knowledge and they can still do a killer job of pushing ads and related content that actually engage users.

You can monitor porn surfers with a teeny tiny sliver of the infrastructure that goes into that. Even if a user only browses the front page, with such a narrow focus it's nothing to build a detailed profile of his sexual appetite based on which videos he watches, what videos he previews, etc. Even in the good old days, you didn't make money selling teen videos. You built sites to filter people into specialty content tailored to them enough to buy. That's totally lost on tube sites, but it doesn't have to be. You can easily provide regular college coed anal videos for 80% of surfers and then hit the other guys repeatedly with stuff that seems like it was made just for them.

[AmeliaG]

I think we could use a few more business threads on the front page, so I'm going to bump a bit.

[The Porn Nerd]

Originally Posted by xxxjay

We have both been around this industry long enough to know neither one of us is newbies. However, my attitude would've been quite in line with yours if you had asked me even a year ago.

Look up to who the big people are in adult now I'm talking about the Manwin's / Think Geek (or whatever there calling themselves now), they are an empire built upon one simple premise: Theft of other people's content to create a huge traffic empire that would eventually control all of the traffic and much of the business in adult. I'm sure you are familiar with these guys.

For years, I have been one of the dissenting voices against their practices and encouraged people in the industry to organize to fight the obvious problem the tubes were causing legitimate program owners, content owners, and webmasters. You see where that all got us. Never underestimate our industries inability to organize or combat an obvious problem before it's too late.

Now rather than bitch about it, I've turned to the dark side and have been effectively buying their traffic and making money off it, I'm not saying that it's the best business model, but it converts and I make all lot more money than I was before, I'm just doing it quietly now.



Never trust a person with "porn" in their name either. The fact is, I've been around this industry since 1997 and I've built three successful businesses and sold them without ripping off one single solitary webmaster, other company or business partner...look me up. With all due respect, go fuck yourself you ass-kissing newb.

I was just being playful and if you knew me then you would know I am often that way. Besides, I am no 'newb' at this point. Well, maybe a mid-newb....LOL

I actually agree with you on this one. Shap makes excellent points and, in a general way, he is correct. But treating your customers with respect is a no-brainer. (And yes, a business owner can quietly think whatever he wants about his customer base.) But Shap has been out of the game a long time now. The Industry has changed somewhat since he sold. He also knew the Biz was changing which is WHY he sold to Manwin but that's another point.

What worked before, in a general way, still works today. But beyond that you have to adapt to today's climate.

Care to share how you are buying the tubes' traffic these days? NTV ads, etc?

[Varius]

Curious what type of mailing you are referring to as "dying" ?

If you send customers / members something they are expecting and something they want to see - you should not experience declining email revenue.

In fact, I can speak first-hand of multiple $500M+/year companies in mainstream where email is a steady, consistent and even growing source of daily revenue.

[bean-aid]

I am still waiting for shap... re: re: re: to email on next big thang

....oops, wrong thread. Carry on ladies

[Shap]

Originally Posted by beaner

I am still waiting for shap... re: re: re: to email on next big thang

....oops, wrong thread. Carry on ladies

trying to find it. pm me i can't find which is yours

[notinmybackyard]

Originally Posted by The Porn Nerd

Mainstream is finding it difficult these days because they do not know how to 'soft sell' so their ad campaigns become ever-increasingly shrill and obnoxious until their customer base tunes them out.

Mainstream like porn is finding out very quickly that the Internet is a shit medium for distribution.

The Internet and its array of dependant gadgets instill ADHD into the surfer. 5 years ago the average surfer read 2 to 3 paragraphs before complaining. Today anything more than 3 lines of text on their Iphone is enough to get them to Space Out and bitch. The surfer of today reads simply next to nothing and seeks only maximum graphical titilation for their eyes.

Finally Google and Facebook become the new defacto boss of any and all Internet endevors. They dictate the terms and enviroment. Plus they take and monetize whatever they want leaving little or nothing behind.

Business is about control and information. When a businessman can not reasonably control how they conduct their activities or inform and educate their potential client target group of the potential value of their products...

Then that businessman is destined to fail.