the only positive thing is that we know what dirty games are being played

Nobel prize are for war mongers now ...

But he did get this :

look, i am not saying we were all better not knowing things like merkel;s cell phone and 60 million spainards were snooped in 1 month. i am saying that looking at this in hindsight, we are all not better now that we know. more importantly, as a consequence, the nsa has replied to it all by stating unequivocally that they snoop and they will continue to, no changes. obama has come out and said the nsa is well and good. no legislation reigning in the nsa has passed nor have any bills of any real consequence been introduced.

i don't see why people feel the need to argue those facts, just to cling to thinking snowden is a hero? that makes no sense. we all need to realize that nothing good is resulting from this.

i'm not trying to be right here, i'd very much like to be wrong, that's why i've asked 3x what good has resulted. i would in fact like something good to come from this.

So revealing wholesale violations of the 4th amendment (not to mention the 1st & 5th) is "betraying your country"? And the perpetrators (ie NSA etc, Clapper, Alexander etc) AREN'T???

Authoritarians in power make me :disgust:Oh crap

Authoritarian shills, dupes & apologists just make me :1orglaugh

Edward Snowden's legal defense fund site is now running. It'll get some bucks from me. http://freesnowden.is/

free snowden? from what? snowden's legal defense fund? for what?

are you really sending money to a legal defense fund for snowden?

He did? When? Where? Links?

So Snowden exposed the NSA... Doing it's job? That's exactly what the NSA does.

Isn't that... What our government is supposed to do? I mean, if someone or some country is plotting an attack against the US, don't we want to the US Government to find out about it before it happens?

And flees to Russia? Do they even have freedom of the press there?

So you really expect after massive revelations like this, that (relatively) OVERNIGHT the Govt is gonna come out and say "Yeah, we did it. It was wrong. We massively violated the constitution. We're sorry. We'll stop right away." Could anyone possibly be that naive?

He did risk his life. And he went to one of the two countries in the world that 1) aren't hardcore allies who would gladly give him up and 2) even the US wouldn't fuck with in terms of violating their sovereignty for an assassination or capture attempt. Had he gone to Ecuador, he'd already be dead or in US custody.

You obviously know nothing about how previous whistleblowers (who tried to do it through official channels) are treated. Their lives become a living hell. Fired, smeared, blackballed and even jailed. Power doesn't like being called on its shit.

Google Thomas Drake (former senior exec at NSA) and educate yourself a little bit.

Fuckin' wow.

Ok, here's a crapload: http://www.theguardian.com/world/the-nsa-files

To make it easy for ya, I picked out some key ones
http://www.theguardian.com/world/201...on-court-order
http://www.theguardian.com/world/201...iants-nsa-data
http://www.theguardian.com/world/201...nce-programmes
http://www.theguardian.com/world/201...ithout-warrant
http://www.theguardian.com/world/201...thorised-obama
http://www.theguardian.com/world/201...am-online-data


It's completely irrelevant to this discussion, as is their shitty human rights record. They have no control over the publishing of these documents. None.

Fucking this ^^^^^

I'm not going to argue tit for tat.

The first article talks about telephone data. The phone companies themselves (as well as Facebook and Google) deny this is happening. Are they listening on conversations - seems not. At the same time if any of this is true, they have a warrant so no laws have been broken.

So in short...
- The companies involved deny this.
- The NSA isn't listening in on phone calls.
- They seem to have a warrant for what they are doing.

On top of this, the website you mention gives conflicting information - the first article says they have a warrent, yet this link says they don't: http://www.theguardian.com/world/201...ithout-warrant

So which is it?

I still believe that everyone is jumping on the bandwagon here. Everyone thinks the NSA is running hog wild, yet there is very little evidence of any illegal activity.

What good came from Snowden pulling back the curtain and exposing the illegal intrusive and deceptive spying that the government was/is doing?

Simple...very simple...truth is always it's own reward. Reality is always better even if it shows something you personally would rather not see/know.

So the simple fact that Snowden revealed the truth is the good in this.

Hope that answers the question you have asked 3 times sir.

snowden didn't risk jack shit, i googled thomas drake back in fucking june when snowden first stole the documents.

here's what i found:

can you read that? THOMAS DRAKE WAS NOT CHARGED WITH ANY FELONIES AND IS A FREE MAN LIVING IN THE USA.

IN FACT, NO ONE EVER HAS SUFFERED SERIOUS CONSEQUENCES FROM EXPOSING THE NSA-







so, sure thing, there's your google facts on thomas drake.





/

yeah, i appreciate the answer and on the surface i can see where you are coming from, but reality has nothing to do with a truth revelation being its own reward.

I'll just say I believe you're being willfully ignorant and leave it at that for now. The floor is yours.

Your fact-checking is for shit. Drake was was originally not just charged, but indicted on 10 felony counts. http://www.fas.org/sgp/news/2010/04/doj041510.html

Your picking and choosing is obvious. Fired, smeared & blackballed is a part of every intel community whistleblowers' experience. Of course you ignored that part in your reply. Drake and other intelligence community whistleblowers have documented their experiences.

you obviously have no idea what indicted means.
in·dict
:
formally accuse of or charge with a serious crime.

fired from the nsa? dude, he was a whistleblower, that means you don't get to keep your job.

drake has not been smeared and has received awards and accolades

i'm not picking and choosing jack shit, i clearly posted a quote that shows that every single nsa whistle blower and more were not found guilty.

again, for the hard of reading::::

On June 9, 2011, all 10 original charges against him were dropped. Drake rejected several deals because he refused to "plea bargain with the truth". He eventually pled to one misdemeanor count for exceeding authorized use of a computer;[10] Jesselyn Radack of the Government Accountability Project, who helped represent him, called it an act of "civil disobedience."[11]

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2011/0...ke-Prosecution

here's more on drake being blackballed and smeared:


Drake appeared on The Daily Show on August 6, 2012, to talk about the history of his case,[62] and in September sent an audio message of support to CryptoParty.[63]

On March 15, 2013, Drake spoke at a National Press Club Luncheon about the national intelligence community and its attitude towards whistle-blowing.video


Drake has become an activist against the surveillance state, frequently giving interviews and speaking at events such as Restore the Fourth.[67]

One of the themes of his speeches and interviews is a "privacy exercise" as follows "Put your entire life in a box, your documents, bank accounts, your passwords, everything -- and give it to a complete stranger -- a fellow American for safekeeping. Would you do it?" he states that he has yet to encounter a "yes."[68]

In a September 2013 interview Drake re-affirmed his belief that the problems of the NSA are so chronic and systemic that the only solution would be to completely dismantle and subsequently rebuild the entire organization.[69

again, stated another way, for the dense:

In early June, the government dropped all of the charges against Drake and agreed not to seek any jail time in return for Drake's agreement to plead guilty to a misdemeanor of misusing the agency’s computer system. Drake was sentenced to one year of probation and community service.

i've been thinking about this still and have to say i was wrong earlier.

this is a good thing. hard to see, takes some thinking, but in the end, i have to agree.

:)

Snowden is a hero.

you know what...wake up people...and i dont know if some people here on this forum are just playing devil's advocate or are just "useful idiots"...so called....

btw. Snowden wanted full public debate, now we got it :1orglaugh

its hard to cover it under carpet as EU govs were spied too (by US gov) and now its leaked...

I just have bad feeling that they(Eu govs) will only go to Washington to ask how they can spy on their (EU) citizens with the same success rate as it was doing NSA and GCHQ....

British gov guys detached David Miranda(greenwald's partner) at the airport few months ago, Greenwald said after that that it will not stop him to publish leaks and he will be even more determined to publish it....hahaha and here we got it now :-)

and I like what J. Appelbaum (that guy working for TOR and member of cult of dead cow hacking group) said on his twitter:
"A no-spy pact between Europe and the United States is worthless - the #NSA respects nothing except the complexity of mathematics. Go dark!"

the same goes with other countries' gov agencies...not only NSA...if they will have possibility to spy, they will (and they have it, not to mention that people willingly post all info on themselves on facebook etc.)...so the only solution to privacy is cryptography :) (and common sense)

he didn't even know what he had. you think he read all that and wanted public debate on shit like merkel's phone?

pfft. again, snowden's not smart. he's a snoop.


yapping about tweets from people who think their smart with tweets like "no-spy pacs won't work" only shows your naivete.

aGAIN- this isn't going to result in less snooping, it's going to result in much more.

so you can make this about snowden being a hero all you want, and specifically about the nsa and you can't stop them but what this did is open the doors for the world to snoop even more. it's go time.

YAY SNOWDEN

It's the idealism of the youthful. You can't tell them anything. They just have to grow up and learn it for themselves. There is no shortcut to experience.

The same guys that are crying about the NSA learning about their lives have no issue with getting a drivers license, credit cards, medical treatment..etc..etc.etc.
In 10 seconds flat any retailer in the US can pull your complete credit history.
If you've been in the military they already know most everything they'll ever need to know.

its different thing, as this data is given by user in comply with his will (user gives that data and he is aware of it), not snooped/spyed...
and i'm not from usa :)

If you are an American and have a pulse, being snooped on is common knowledge. J Edgar Hoover had massive amounts of information on many thousands of people 50 years ago.
If you file a tax return, you have given the IRS a roadmap of your life. If you have children in public schools. The list of info gathering is enormous.

The only way around it would be to live by yourself in a cabin in the hills of Montana.

:1orglaugh:1orglaugh:1orglaugh:1orglaugh:1orglaugh :1orglaugh:1orglaugh:1orglaugh

dude...the US government is almost impossible to insult :1orglaugh:1orglaugh:1orglaugh

how funny is it that a country founded by traitors condemns traitors? :1orglaugh:1orglaugh:1orglaugh

ill tell you: very funny! :1orglaugh:1orglaugh

former head of French intelligence Bernard Squarcini sounded surprised at the claims that the political class did not know about the snooping.

?I am amazed by such disconcerting naiveté. You?d almost think our politicians don?t bother to read the reports they get from the intelligence services,? he told French newspaper Le Figaro. ?The Americans spy on French commercial and industrial interests, and we do the same to them because it?s in the national interest to protect our companies.?

So while Merkel may be outraged by allegations that the NSA listened in on her conversations, and monitored millions more, she shouldn?t be surprised, according to Professor Antony Glees, director of the Centre for Security and Intelligence Studies at Britain's University of Buckinghamshire.

?This is par for the course,? he said. ?Countries eavesdrop on other countries. If you have Angela Merkel?s telephone number you will listen in to it if you can.?

If your purpose in life is to insult the US, you are failing badly.
You act more like the board jester. You and the org-laugh and pornstar 69 and his GIANT TEXT POSTS.. You've done well in life. :thumbsup

Good article, when you consider there have been spy planes since the 1950's, satellites since the 70's..serious internet encryption since the 90's you've got wonder how people can be shocked that there is information gathering going on.

Here's a tip, don't phone or email about ebola, bombs, viruses..etc

as you know, it's all political posturing, the media globs onto to it and then the anti-usa gfy mob takes it from there.

and it is a sad fact then.

like I said before - filling papers to IRS, signing up to some service is giving your data according to your will...being spyed is different thing and it is illegal (well, at least in my country).
it is a sad fact that "young" people have to explain that to "older" people...privacy is basic human right, not privilege...unless it is different in USA like it was different in Stasi's East germany (and few other countries too :), but not on such scale) )

read carefully snowden leaks, nobody in NSA does user-targetting by keywords...now they collect everything

what nation do you live in? you also have special privacy facebook, twitter, email, google, internet, isp, cel phone, etc?

There is a reason older people rule the world. There really is nothing a young person can tell me that I probably don't already know. Perspective is everything. I think speed limits on the roads are silly. Yet for the most part I follow them. I think that if a person wants to smoke pot they should be able to.etc...

There is shit going on everywhere,e very minute of the day that someone doesn't like or feels is fair. That's life. I have learned that getting pissed off about things I have no control over is a complete waste of time.

And we are all still doing actually what we want to do, when we want to do it.

If someone wants to read my emails or listen to my calls I just need to consider that when I call or email people. Frankly, I don't care even a little that the NSA has a file on me. THey are just another of the long list of businesses and government organizations that do.

dynam_mo is absolutely wrong in that nothing changed as a result of Snowdens actions. (sorry buddy :) )

One thing certainly changed that very day. That is that every intelligence agency in the world revisited Rule Number One: "Don't Get Caught" and modified their policies and procedures to make sure they don't have a similar incident.

Some of you people, particularly Europeans are so fucking naive about how the world works when it comes to matters of state intelligence, that its gone past amusing and right into scary.

The only thing that is different about the US and say Iceland or Iran or any other nation is capability, not the desire, will and determination to do the same.

And pretending Snowden's outing of documents somehow led to some sort of revelation is pathetically stupid. From Echelon to Carnivore to Omnivore to to every other wide scale gathering of data THAT EQUALLY INVOLVED EU NATIONS AND THEIR ACTIVE PARTICIPATION that has been happening for decades, is nothing new. It's all just more of the same. As is the one other constant in intelligence as we witness now in the news... the feigned, self righteous indignation expressed by politicians, when it goes wrong.

Nothing will change.

Intelligence is as older than civilization itself and a vital component to the functioning and enduring success of a state. Intelligence agencies have to operate in the dark because those they protect are exceedingly naive and ignorant and have a very imperfect understanding of the scale and scope of the threats a large nation, be they political, economic or military/security which they must deal with.