Originally Posted by DWB (Post 19686147)

And for the record, Hong Kong is not China.

Originally Posted by Rochard (Post 19686012)

But how is our government out line?

All of this is done by warrants issued by judges. Agency "x" believes that "mr x" is engaged in legal activity against the United States, gets a warrant from a judge, and then serves Google with a request for their data.

Most of this seems to have been done by local police departments for use in solving local crimes. Local police investigate a local crime - a murder, robbery, rape, disappearance - go to a local judge to a get a warrant to look at their phone records, email, Facebook, whatever. This is the way it's always been done.

There is nothing illegal so far.

Originally Posted by crockett (Post 19686171)

How is our govt out of line? They claim the need to have access to this information is because of terrorism.

Do you really think terrorist use Facebook, gmail and so on? I mean really? If they are chasing tangos, why the need for US isp's root level access?

This shit is a front for domestic spying. There no other legit reason.

Originally Posted by _Richard_ (Post 19686149)

because the US has refused to hand over countless people

Originally Posted by RummyBoy (Post 19686178)

http://rt.com/op-edge/snowden-nsa-crime-gchq-136/

I was just watching RT and they don't talk about that at all... snowden might be passing secrets to them. DO YOU THINK HE COULD BE A RUSSIAN SPY?

He doesn't look Russian at all....

Originally Posted by dyna mo (Post 19686176)

the boston bombers used facebook.

Originally Posted by _Richard_ (Post 19686126)

are you purposely being obtuse?

http://www.globalresearch.ca/nsa-spy...apping-program



if this doesn't make it through your 'filter'.. we'll try the original article where you have the actual companies talk about the info being grabbed without a warrant, but also when they say it was ILLEGAL FOR THEM TO EVEN TALK ABOUT THE OCCURRENCE TAKING PLACE

Originally Posted by EddyTheDog (Post 19686180)

I seem to restarted the Cold War...

Originally Posted by crockett (Post 19686171)

How is our govt out of line? They claim the need to have access to this information is because of terrorism.

Do you really think terrorist use Facebook, gmail and so on? I mean really? If they are chasing tangos, why the need for US isp's root level access?

This shit is a front for domestic spying. There no other legit reason.

Groups like OWS and the Tea Party use FB.. Not terrorist.

Originally Posted by CyberSEO (Post 19686188)

The Boston bombers were reported to FBI by FSB as potential Muslim terrorists two years ago before the actual bombing. Any consequence? Yeah, here you go NSA, continue reading Facebook messages and jerking off on of private Skype videos. I'm sure that will protect the USA from the real terrorist :thumbsup

Originally Posted by dyna mo (Post 19686162)

correction: he's a low-mid level sys admin fugitive on the run who had to ask julian assange where and what to do next, and that's according to assange.

Originally Posted by vdbucks (Post 19685504)

for as much as he carries on about sworn oaths, broken oaths and the like, sure seems like he would remember the very oath he would have taken if in fact he ever was in the military... I've been out of the Army for going on 15 years and I still remember it...

The most relevant portion being...

But, if he ever really was in the Army then it would seem to me that he forgot those very words, because so far all he has "defended" are those domestic enemies who have been shitting on the Constitution since 2001...

GWB, Obama, doesn't matter... The reality here is that this whole "left vs right", "dem vs rep" nonsense is nothing more than a smoke screen in order to keep the sheep occupied while their very freedoms continue to get stripped away bit by bit. And so long as they have facebook, american idol and the mainstream media feeding them bullshit in order to occupy their time and keep people from focusing on the real issues, nothing will change.

And this "revolution" that some people keep harping about will never happen because today's generation is full of nothing but lazy people who are incapable of thinking for themselves and whose very existence is a complete and utter waste of space.

But I digress... it's bush's fault... no it's obama's fault... no it's the tea party's fault... no it's the liberals' fault... no it's the conservatives fault... so long as there is someone for the dumb ass american people to point a finger at, they'll never realize that all of this happening is, in fact, their own damn fault.

Originally Posted by dyna mo (Post 19686152)

none of that makes any sense when applied to his own words.

Originally Posted by dyna mo (Post 19686156)

he's a sys admin bra.

that's like saying a lawyer is smarter than everyone else because she's a lawyer.

we already know how lax the nsa and booz hiring requirements were, he didn't even have a fresh background check done.

i'm not convinced he's smart at all. the government is not smart as you frequently point out, the government is comprised of snowdens, it doesn't make any sense he's the smart one.

Originally Posted by Rochard (Post 19686163)

Um, yes, it is.

Hong Kong is one of the two Special Administrative Regions of the People's Republic of China, the other being Macau.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hong_Kong

Originally Posted by Rochard (Post 19686163)

I find it interesting that he went to a country that has an entire section of it's military dedicated to hacking the US, and to a country where it's citizens have limited rights. Then he went to Russia, which was more of the same. Seems to me he is a spy who defected in a public way.

Originally Posted by DWB (Post 19686147)

Is he living in China, no. He passed through Hong Kong. And for the record, Hong Kong is not China.

If you think a guy with access to that kind of information, someone who had the authority to read the President's email, didn't line up the right people to talk to in advance each nation AND know how to do it, getting in and getting out, you're dreaming.

This guy knows exactly what he is doing. Whatever media is coming out is a smoke screen to keep everyone guessing where he is now and what he is doing next. He's smarter than you, me, and everyone else here. That's how he got that job. He's not a backpacking tree hugger who's winging all of this.

Originally Posted by Yanks_Todd (Post 19686200)

DWB I think you are giving him way to much credit. He reminds me of Harvey Lee Oswald. A fairly unremarkable guy who is trying to do something remarkable, but struggling.

Originally Posted by theking (Post 19686203)

I, _____, do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic...

Originally Posted by Rochard (Post 19686192)

On top of this, your article says the documents have been seen by The Guardian, but not published. Well, what are we waiting for? I want to see proof that the NSA physically has "copies of all of this data" and is accessing it all without warrants or illegally.

Originally Posted by DWB (Post 19686205)

Now that I think about it... Where is Franck? He went offline around the same time this dummy popped up.

Originally Posted by baddog (Post 19686146)

#1. I think you are stretching it to give credit to McCarthy.
#2. What judicial errors were revealed after their execution that would have changed anything?



The difference being that she did not avoid arrest, but rather got arrested so she could make a statement and get something done about it.

Originally Posted by theking (Post 19686223)

Pigshit.

Originally Posted by JoshGirls Josh (Post 19686229)

ironic since such proof is secret & requires breaking the very laws you are defending to provide to you. do you feel the cognitive dissonance, or do you just choose to discount whatever information contradicts your prejudice.

Originally Posted by DWB (Post 19686228)

Maybe. Lets look at what we do know:

1) He had a high security clearance at the NSA. He had the authority to read any email, or wiretap any phone, including the President's email. I could be wrong, but I don't think they would give a burger flipper that kind of access.

2) He is smart enough to have not been arrested so far and escape all attempts by the US government to do so. That within itself is quite an incredible act, especially when you're crossing borders.

3) He is smart enough to know where to go and obviously their extradition agreements, or lack thereof.

4) He is smart enough to get what he needed to the press and make himself known enough to where they can't just kill him. Instead, he is being protected.

Contrary to popular belief, just those four things takes a lot of smarts, especially playing this game on an international level. A lot of balls too.

What about his finances? Do you think he just skipped town and hoped he could pan handle for cash? Doubt it. All his US assets were frozen the day they issues a warrant for him. Maybe he didn't plan for that, but given the info he had access to, he would have known exactly that he would have had to plan for it, and probably knew where to do it.



The enemy is clearly domestic in this case. He followed his oath.

Originally Posted by dyna mo (Post 19686176)

the boston bombers used facebook.

Originally Posted by crockett (Post 19686267)

The Boston bombers were domestic and home grown. They aren't an excuse to use this system on US traffic because according to the govt US traffic isn't targeted. If it's not targeted then why the need to capture it...

Aside from that the Boston guys didn't do their planning on FB.. They were just members of the site and had profiles.

Originally Posted by crockett (Post 19686171)

How is our govt out of line? They claim the need to have access to this information is because of terrorism.

Do you really think terrorist use Facebook, gmail and so on? I mean really? If they are chasing tangos, why the need for US isp's root level access?

Originally Posted by DWB (Post 19686205)

Yea, you're probably right. Someone given the authority to read the Presidents email is probably a hack. I bet he spends his nights posting on GFY and moonlighting in the porn business.

Originally Posted by dyna mo (Post 19686280)

i hear ya, it's complex right? but obama is otr after the boston bombing stating that the terror threat now is more domestically located than international and that's where the primary efforts will focus. that means that to investigate those threats, the nsa/snoops will have to use their equipment right here. that means all this drone tech, upcoming drone tech, 2nd gen.

it's crazy complex in my view.

Originally Posted by Antonio (Post 19686293)

at the airport in Moscow

OK, I didn't read the whole thread, but this is where he's at

Originally Posted by baddog (Post 19686289)

You really believe that? I guess you do not realize Twitter's role in the Arab Spring.



Oh please; he said he could IF he had a personal email address for him. I am not sure why you keep giving this guy so much credit.

Originally Posted by theking (Post 19686244)

As to your #1 his boss testified before congress and said that is not true/bullshit. As to your reference to the enemy being domestic...pigshit.

Originally Posted by dyna mo (Post 19686264)

the thing is dwb, i want to believe this guy is the smartest guy in the room. i want the snoops to be that smart. why do you think he would go to those 2 countries? i just can't fathom why, especially in light of what he is otr stating: he did it for americans.

any ideas ?

Originally Posted by crockett (Post 19686297)

But they are telling us that Americans aren't targeted, which I think we can all agree is bullshit by this point.

Also we are supposed to give up our right to privacy to be protected by big mom a govt. Yet the very fact that this system was in place and the govt was even warned about the Boston guys..

Yet they still were about to attack inside the US.

I'm supposed to go along with this shit for protection from the big bad evil terrorist.. Yet the govt seems unable to do that..

Once again, why are my rights violated if they can't even catch a few guys that should have been red flagged...

Originally Posted by DWB (Post 19686317)

Of course his boss would say that. Do you honestly think he would stand before congress and tell them he gave this young and apparently not smart man total access to EVERYTHING? Not a chance.



I think he had meetings set up in advance, perhaps some agreements on his safety, and he knows what countries won't or can't extradite him. Knowing what countries won't send you back to the USA would be step one.

Put yourself in his shoes. You have access to all of that data. You know where the USA can and can not / does not snoop. So you focus on where they can't / don't and work from there. Be it a certain phone company or service, he would have known where information would have been safe and that is how he contacted who he needed to contact.

Julian Assange, the President of Ecuador, possibly Putin, and lord knows who else, he didn't luck into contact with these people. You don't just send an email to Wikileaks and they blindly set you up with travel protection from Ecuador. You don't just hang out in the Russian airport with an invalid passport, missing flights to Cuba, and not get hassled. You ever been there? Ask some of the Russians how it is playing out there. You ever exited Hong Kong (or any country) on an invalid passport? :1orglaugh Ain't gonna happen. Not in a million years. He made a plan, lined it all up, protected his ass, and now he's working the plan with the help of Wikileaks or whoever.

I would also like to think he is a smart guy. While there is no way to know his IQ, he is obviously street smart enough to do exactly what he is doing and not get caught. At least not yet anyway. The USA has FBI and CIA all over the world. They could scoop him up in an hour flat if they thought they could. But they haven't. For now, he has outsmarted them.

Originally Posted by crockett (Post 19686316)

Last time I checked Arab Spring was a revolution to overthrow corrupted govts, not terrorists planning attacks.

So I guess we can understand why the US govt would want to have access to FB and twitter now don't we...

Originally Posted by PR_Glen (Post 19686150)

this is such a drama queens perspective on things..

revolutions don't start over piddly shit like this, not now, not ever. Nobody is starving in the US and until that starts to happen there isn't going to be that long awaited motivated by the couch potatoes revolution that people keep TYPING about on the internet. The only difference between now and before is that now we have more uninformed fools chiming in on the subject matter via fb and twitter. (not that i'm lumping you in with that, but I'm sure you would agree there are many that do)

Originally Posted by theking (Post 19686339)

Pigshit.

Originally Posted by Bman (Post 19686349)

actually all revolutions were started by piddly things...crack open a history book:2 cents:

Originally Posted by baddog (Post 19686289)

Oh please; he said he could IF he had a personal email address for him. I am not sure why you keep giving this guy so much credit.

Originally Posted by theking (Post 19686339)

Pigshit.

Originally Posted by _Richard_ (Post 19686351)

http://i.imgur.com/45JJ9wZ.jpg

your constant use of that term is far clearer now, pathfinder



:1orglaugh:1orglaugh

Originally Posted by DWB (Post 19686317)

Of course his boss would say that. Do you honestly think he would stand before congress and tell them he gave this young and apparently not smart man total access to EVERYTHING? Not a chance.



I think he had meetings set up in advance, perhaps some agreements on his safety, and he knows what countries won't or can't extradite him. Knowing what countries won't send you back to the USA would be step one.

Put yourself in his shoes. You have access to all of that data. You know where the USA can and can not / does not snoop. So you focus on where they can't / don't and work from there. Be it a certain phone company or service, he would have known where information would have been safe and that is how he contacted who he needed to contact.

Julian Assange, the President of Ecuador, possibly Putin, and lord knows who else, he didn't luck into contact with these people. You don't just send an email to Wikileaks and they blindly set you up with travel protection from Ecuador. You don't just hang out in the Russian airport with an invalid passport, missing flights to Cuba, and not get hassled. You ever been there? Ask some of the Russians how it is playing out there. You ever exited Hong Kong (or any country) on an invalid passport? :1orglaugh Ain't gonna happen. Not in a million years. He made a plan, lined it all up, protected his ass, and now he's working the plan with the help of Wikileaks or whoever.

I would also like to think he is a smart guy. While there is no way to know his IQ, he is obviously street smart enough to do exactly what he is doing and not get caught. At least not yet anyway. The USA has FBI and CIA all over the world. They could scoop him up in an hour flat if they thought they could. But they haven't. For now, he has outsmarted them.

Originally Posted by Joe Obenberger (Post 19686361)

I've never understood any of them to require obedience to unlawful orders. Either does the Army or Congress understand it that way. Illegality of orders is a complete defense in a court martial. The Uniform Code of Military Justice, a law passed by Congress and signed by President Truman, provides for that defense. Illegality can be based on the Constitution. Even statutes can be unconstitutional. If they are unconstitutional, they are invalid, void. The federal courts have recognized that since Marbury v. Madison early in the Nineteenth Century.

There is much virtue in what Snowden has done.

http://www.paulcraigroberts.org/2013...craig-roberts/

Originally Posted by Rochard (Post 19686163)

Um, yes, it is.

Hong Kong is one of the two Special Administrative Regions of the People's Republic of China, the other being Macau.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hong_Kong

I find it interesting that he went to a country that has an entire section of it's military dedicated to hacking the US, and to a country where it's citizens have limited rights. Then he went to Russia, which was more of the same. Seems to me he is a spy who defected in a public way.

Originally Posted by DWB (Post 19686354)

Yes, that is exactly what he said and that statement is huge. He said if he had the President's email, he had the authority and ability to access it. I highly doubt someone with that sort of security access is a schmuck.

Perhaps you and Rochard have the authority and ability to read Obama's email, and that's all just common lower level admin stuff, but that sounds like a big deal to me.

Originally Posted by crockett (Post 19686297)

But they are telling us that Americans aren't targeted, which I think we can all agree is bullshit by this point.

Also we are supposed to give up our right to privacy to be protected by big mom a govt. Yet the very fact that this system was in place and the govt was even warned about the Boston guys..

Yet they still were about to attack inside the US.

I'm supposed to go along with this shit for protection from the big bad evil terrorist.. Yet the govt seems unable to do that..

Once again, why are my rights violated if they can't even catch a few guys that should have been red flagged...