Originally Posted by Sly

I'm not really all that convinced of this. I am not a China and Russia fearmonger. I don't think a war would happen easily. It would take a lot. But discounting the sheer size of the Chinese military (we can't forget India and North Korea, they are strong Chinese allies with massive militaries as well) doesn't make sense to me. And the willingness of Russians military cannot be discounted either.

Even so. We don't need a war with China or Russia to need a large military. The "war" in Iraq and Afghanistan have proven this. You split up your forces and you have serious, serious problems.

All it would take is a battle of some sort in South America, which is totally possible, and a battle of some sort in Africa/Asia, again totally possible. Now you have troops, supplies, equipment, commanders, and logistics 20,000 miles away from each other.

I'm all for technology. I want more of it. And I want it better. But shrinking our 1.4 million strong military does not make that much sense to me. Which of our allies has a similar military size? Any of them?

Now let's talk about our "non-allies." China, over 2 million. India, over 1 million. Iran, 500,000. North Korea, over 1 million. Russia, over 1 million.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...tary_personnel
Click the down arrow by active military.

Of the top 10, the only other Western ally is Korea, and their size is only a third of ours.

Originally Posted by DWB

I doubt a "massive" military is really needed. A large one, one capable of defending the nation, is all that is needed. We don't need over 100 bases around the world. History has already shown us how that ends,

Originally Posted by MaDalton

ok, let's agree we disagree on this

i just think that nowadays economic ties are much stronger than a disagreement that causes a world war that involves millions of soldiers (which can easily ended by using nuclear weapons and then we're all fucked anyways).

just think about it:

without China Walmart would be half empty and you have no fancy Apple products

without India who will do your callcenters?

Russia is a huge exporter of gas and oil - without the western world buying it, their economy will collapse

there is no way to untie this without the whole world economy collapsing and everyone going back to stone age - and no one is going to risk that over some disagreement about some borders or something like that.

Originally Posted by Sly

North Korea. Definitely possible.

Iran. Definitely possible.

That's a 3 million strong military right there, defending their home turf may as well triple the power of those 3 million.

Originally Posted by MaDalton

North Korea - we all know how this ended last time

Iran - i doubt you can deploy 1 million foot soldiers there and win anything

Iraq - the war was built on a lie and we all know that now

Afghanistan - if there was ever something to learn from Russia then that you cant win a war there

i think the basic solution is: leave others alone that want to be left alone

but i also know that this only works in a dream world.

Originally Posted by DWB

It will end when the money ends. Not a day sooner.

Originally Posted by Jesus H Christ

How is this a dream world [...]

This is actually why I like Obama. He tells the [...] Israelis, hey, we got our own problems and if you don't like it GFY.

Originally Posted by Sly

I was talking to a Canadian friend last night. He chuckled about what I said, but in the end he agreed.

The allies of the United States like to make fun of our military might. They think we are warmongers. They think we care only about violence. They think we don't care about our people. They think we would rather kill others then feed families. They make fun of our massive military budget.

It's true. Our military budget is insane. Our military is very large. Our military technology is quite good. Our military training is very good. We have military bases all around the world.

Our focus on military allows our allies to spend less on their military. They can spend their money on social programs, a variety of domestic programs, a variety of aid programs, so on and so forth? for their own countries. And that's all fine, no problem.

When shit hits the fan? Not if? When? There are going to be a lot of phone calls to one particular Defense Department. It's not going to be Canada. It's not going to be the United Kingdom. It's not going to be France. It's going to be the United States.

I'm not knocking the militaries of Canada, the United Kingdom, and France? We train with them, they are allies. We simply have a better set up. And sure, all of those guys will get called in to the battle as well, but there will be a ringleader. We can all laugh and giggle and deny it all we want? But deep down, we know who that ringleader is going to be.

So, allies of the United States? When you need our help, don't worry. We will forget that you chastise our military nonstop. We will forget that you spend less on your defense because we spend more. We will forget that you think we are evil warmongers. We will be there, don't worry. Sure, we might want oil, we might want infrastructure contracts, we might even want your damn trees... but hey, we will be there. And when that time comes, you won't care.

Yes. I am an arrogant American, but you know I'm right. ;-)

Originally Posted by JohnnyClips

What about the millions of native americans slaughtered?

Originally Posted by SilentKnight

Dear 'Ringleader':

It depends on what measuring stick you're using.

Canada entered WWII in Sept./1939 - the U.S. in Dec./1941...two years after Canada had declared war on Germany.

During the course of the war 730,000 Canadian men and women served in the army, 260,000 served in the air force and 115,000 served in the navy. Canadians distinguished themselves at several theaters of the war most notably at Dieppe in France in 1942, the invasion of the Italian peninsula in 1943, the liberation of the Netherlands and the Allied invasion of German occupied France from Normandy in 1944.

From June/1940 to July/1941 Britain stood alone against Germany and without Canadian assistance likely would have fallen to German forces.
The battle of the Atlantic was largely the responsibility of Canada. The UK was heavily involved as well, but the US was largely absent from this theatre until very late in the war.

Before you let your American 'arrogance' run away with itself - don't forget Kasserine Pass in Tunisia where American troops ran like rabbits and had to rescued by British and French troops.

Originally Posted by Sly

Did you get upset and do a quick lookup on Wikipedia for the Canadian contributions to World War II? I'm looking right now and all of your bullet points are in a very similar order.

I'm not going to belittle the contribution that those men made, so arguing back and forth over this is silly. If you believe that when a Western country gets in trouble they will be placing their first call to Canada, so be it.

Originally Posted by Jesus H Christ

In short, if the Russians didn't take out the 6th army, your German would be excellent by now.

Originally Posted by SilentKnight

Upset, nah. Too old and been around the block too many times to let a simple post bother me.

I'm not entirely arguing - I agree with some of the points you made...and likewise not belittling the U.S. (Americans need little help making themselves look bad )

I merely felt the desire to reflect on the significant effort and sacrifice Canada has made in past generations when it comes to war.

I think it was a line from Braveheart - "History is written by those who would hang heroes" - and all too often the U.S. is quick to write revisionist history in an attempt to take more share of the credit than is often due.

Originally Posted by JohnnyClips

Where's your evidence for this other than western propaganda?

What about the millions of native americans slaughtered?

Originally Posted by Jesus H Christ

..and before your Canadian arrogance runs away with itself. 45,000 Canadian died in WW2 as your numbers say 730k Canadians served. Well, I got news for you, 1 million Soviet soldiers died in "the" battle of Stalingrad wiping out the German Sixth Army, the most feared army in the world at the time.

In short, if the Russians didn't take out the 6th army, your German would be excellent by now.

Originally Posted by Mutt

We'll never see anything like WWI and WWII again - thankfully. The numbers of lives lost in both is staggering, absolutely staggering. As bloody and horrific as they were they were also glorious and magnificent spectacles of the worst and best in men and why we still have so much interest and admiration for those who fought in them.

We aren't the same people anymore, soldiers are coming back from Afghanistan and Iraq more fucked up in the head than in far more bloody more recent wars in Vietnam and Korea.

I will watch Patton again tomorrow - he's one of my all time great heroes, flawed as he was. The greatest general the world has ever seen, took over the US Third Army in 1944 after almost being kicked out of the military for slapping and kicking a couple of soldiers he deemed cowards. Under his leadership the Third Army advanced farther, captured more enemy prisoners, and liberated more territory in less time than any other army in history.

If you've never watched the movie, download it, it's a masterpiece and a history lesson.

Originally Posted by Jesus H Christ

..and before your Canadian arrogance runs away with itself. 45,000 Canadian died in WW2 as your numbers say 730k Canadians served. Well, I got news for you, 1 million Soviet soldiers died in "the" battle of Stalingrad wiping out the German Sixth Army, the most feared army in the world at the time.

In short, if the Russians didn't take out the 6th army, your German would be excellent by now.

Originally Posted by Mutt

I think saving Europe three times in the span of one lifetime is enough for even the greatest nation. Next time the Germans or Russians come calling try going it alone.

Originally Posted by MaDalton

without China Walmart would be half empty and you have no fancy Apple products

Originally Posted by MaDalton

ok, let's agree we disagree on this
without India who will do your callcenters?

Originally Posted by MaDalton

Russia is a huge exporter of gas and oil - without the western world buying it, their economy will collapse

Originally Posted by MaDalton

there is no way to untie this without the whole world economy collapsing and everyone going back to stone age - and no one is going to risk that over some disagreement about some borders or something like that.

Originally Posted by Jesus H Christ

Actually your facts are far from correct as I've actually not only been to Volgograd, but often. I've gone through the war memorial tour many times, one of the best I've ever seen. I've also been in the city center on May 9.

The real numbers told to me were actually closer to 1.1 million. When the Germans surrounded the city there were 800k civilians blocked in and after the battle/war there were only 1500 accountable. That's some heavy collateral damage.

Originally Posted by Rochard

They would be built someplace else.



We have a large call center up the street from us with over 300 employees. It's not like only India can have call centers.



The United States produces a huge amount of gas and oil, however, we need it ourselves so we do not export it. Canada is the largest importer to the US.



You do understand that Germany bought oil from Russia and plane engines from the UK shortly before war broke out, right?

Originally Posted by RKLover

Originally Posted by JohnnyClips

Real men don't fight in wars

Originally Posted by Spunky

God bless the vets

Originally Posted by JohnnyClips

Real men don't fight in wars

People who fight in wars are easily programmable to do whatever their slave masters tell them. They are about as unreal and unheroic as it gets

He's five feet two and he's six feet four
He fights with missiles and with spears
He's all of 31 and he's only 17
He's been a soldier for a thousand years

He's a Catholic, a Hindu, an atheist, a Jain,
a Buddhist and a Baptist and a Jew
and he knows he shouldn't kill
and he knows he always will
kill you for me my friend and me for you

And he's fighting for Canada,
he's fighting for France,
he's fighting for the USA,
and he's fighting for the Russians
and he's fighting for Japan,
and he thinks we'll put an end to war this way

And he's fighting for Democracy
and fighting for the Reds
He says it's for the peace of all
He's the one who must decide
who's to live and who's to die
and he never sees the writing on the walls

But without him how would Hitler have
condemned him at Dachau
Without him Caesar would have stood alone
He's the one who gives his body
as a weapon to a war
and without him all this killing can't go on

He's the universal soldier and he
really is to blame
His orders come from far away no more
They come from him, and you, and me
and brothers can't you see
this is not the way we put an end to war.

Originally Posted by Rochard

I ate lunch with a WWII vet that stormed the beach at Normandy. Best lunch I ever had.

Originally Posted by Sly

I was talking to a Canadian friend last night. He chuckled about what I said, but in the end he agreed.

The allies of the United States like to make fun of our military might. They think we are warmongers. They think we care only about violence. They think we don't care about our people. They think we would rather kill others then feed families. They make fun of our massive military budget.

It's true. Our military budget is insane. Our military is very large. Our military technology is quite good. Our military training is very good. We have military bases all around the world.

Our focus on military allows our allies to spend less on their military. They can spend their money on social programs, a variety of domestic programs, a variety of aid programs, so on and so forth? for their own countries. And that's all fine, no problem.

When shit hits the fan? Not if? When? There are going to be a lot of phone calls to one particular Defense Department. It's not going to be Canada. It's not going to be the United Kingdom. It's not going to be France. It's going to be the United States.

I'm not knocking the militaries of Canada, the United Kingdom, and France? We train with them, they are allies. We simply have a better set up. And sure, all of those guys will get called in to the battle as well, but there will be a ringleader. We can all laugh and giggle and deny it all we want? But deep down, we know who that ringleader is going to be.

So, allies of the United States? When you need our help, don't worry. We will forget that you chastise our military nonstop. We will forget that you spend less on your defense because we spend more. We will forget that you think we are evil warmongers. We will be there, don't worry. Sure, we might want oil, we might want infrastructure contracts, we might even want your damn trees... but hey, we will be there. And when that time comes, you won't care.

Yes. I am an arrogant American, but you know I'm right. ;-)

Originally Posted by Sly

The allies of the United States like to make fun of our military might. They think we are warmongers. They think we care only about violence. They think we don't care about our people. They think we would rather kill others then feed families. They make fun of our massive military budget.

It's true. Our military budget is insane. Our military is very large. Our military technology is quite good. Our military training is very good. We have military bases all around the world.

Our focus on military allows our allies to spend less on their military. They can spend their money on social programs, a variety of domestic programs, a variety of aid programs, so on and so forth… for their own countries. And that's all fine, no problem.

When shit hits the fan… Not if… When… There are going to be a lot of phone calls to one particular Defense Department. It's not going to be Canada. It's not going to be the United Kingdom. It's not going to be France. It's going to be the United States.

I'm not knocking the militaries of Canada, the United Kingdom, and France… We train with them, they are allies. We simply have a better set up. And sure, all of those guys will get called in to the battle as well, but there will be a ringleader. We can all laugh and giggle and deny it all we want… But deep down, we know who that ringleader is going to be.

So, allies of the United States… When you need our help, don't worry. We will forget that you chastise our military nonstop. We will forget that you spend less on your defense because we spend more. We will forget that you think we are evil warmongers. We will be there, don't worry. Sure, we might want oil, we might want infrastructure contracts, we might even want your damn trees... but hey, we will be there. And when that time comes, you won't care.

Yes. I am an arrogant American, but you know I'm right. ;-)