The Single worst thing ever to happen to online porn industry.

[OldJeff]

Webmasters Click Here to make money links on porn sites.

99% of all problems would not have happened had we not tried to turn surfers into webmasters

[shimmy2]

you cant be serious

[xNetworx]

You should probably never post here again

[Tom_PM]

Why, whats wrong with his opinion? I've said for a decade that programs should not allow people in that didn't have an adult domain already. This started way too late but it did eventually become a requirement by some programs. They also should not have given any free content, and content sellers should never have sold hardcore to anyone without a protected members area.

Of course it's too late. Just adding to the thread.

[DamageX]

Don't quit your dayjob.

[Why]

i would tend to agree, never thought it wise.

[Radical Bucks]

The single worst thing that happen to porn is Manwin/Fabian

[geedub]

You guys are all pathetic.

[Sly]

Did you guys wake up one day and think "gosh, I'm going to start a porn site! I don't like porn, but I bet I can make some money from it!"

[CurrentlySober]

I thought this was another Paul Markham thread...

[OldJeff]

Originally Posted by DamageX

Don't quit your dayjob.

Don't have one. Just a poor broke bastard that has been seeing webmasters from guppies to whales since 1997.

[Barefootsies]

[seeandsee]

troll attempt?

[Harmon]

Originally Posted by Radical Bucks

The single worst thing that happen to porn is Manwin/Fabian

You really do not know your way around here, do you

[Tom_PM]

Originally Posted by Sly

Did you guys wake up one day and think "gosh, I'm going to start a porn site! I don't like porn, but I bet I can make some money from it!"

I'm going to guess that you're saying that most webmasters start through a Webmasters Make Money link while they were surfing for porn?

I'd like to know stats on that in all seriousness.

I started by a personal recommendation from an existing webmaster who also began her career that way. I don't know about the person who advised her though. That'd be back in the mid or early 90's at that point.

I have about 70 referals under me, but the only ones who make money are from board sigs and asking them personally to use my link. I'm guessing the vast wasted majority of them were from tours and never sent a click, but probably downloaded lots of free content once in the webmaster area.

[ggrrssyydik]

You mean people still make money on porn? I thought we all did it for the fun and fame of being able to say I work in the porn industry.

[signupdamnit]

I don't think anyone else has the guts to say it so I will. Believe it or not the worst thing to happen to adult is probably Go Fuck Yourself since somewhere around 2003 becoming the main forum. The forum eventually become tilted towards favoring the crooked. A place where honest people are often censored and criminals are revered. Things may have been different if in 2006 and 2007 a more affiliate friendly forum were in control of things. Instead it eventually became accepted and normal to be a thief and steal (piracy) from others. That encouraged the rise of cartels such as Brazzers/Mansef/Manwin who now has the leadership of this forum even allowing them to be the keynote speaker at their shows.

Ban is probably forthcoming but it's worth it.

[Major (Tom)]

Originally Posted by OldJeff

Webmasters Click Here to make money links on porn sites.

99% of all problems would not have happened had we not tried to turn surfers into webmasters

I honestly think GTS fucked it up. They controlled too much traffic by making you pay for spots on a shitty mgp & that gave rise to tube sites because traffic was being hoarded by GTS. Then once tube sites opened it was a free for all.
That's the truth as I see it from
someone who's been around since 2001
ds

[BFT3K]

Worst thing: FREE PORN - no question about it!

[Va2k]

Originally Posted by BFT3K

Worst thing: FREE PORN - no question about it!

I 100% agree!!!!!!!

[London Banker]

agreed, those links made me curios

[PR_Phil]

Come on, you guys are smarter than this!

Webmasters Make Money links killed online porn? give me a break.

GFY killed the industry! not a chance, although I think GFY is usually a huge waste of time, it certainly did not destroy anything, except a few peoples reputation.

Fabian Destroyed the World! I don't think so, the damage was done while he was still working for Nats.

GTS fucked up the porn industry? really? not sure how that's possible, and yes I read the post.

In 1999 when I started in the industry, every tour I saw had a "webmasters make money" link on it, the industry continued to grow.

GFY is certainly not powerful enough to have any real effect on the industry, it's a forum full of people with nothing to do, several years ago it was full of successful people in the industry, very few trolls, very few surfers, shit got done on here, relationships were solidified, deals were made, instead of fighting, people got to know their peers and organized deals and relationships.

Fabian doesn't have the power to destroy an industry that has already been decimated, just the brains to cash in on it. Don't take that as kissing ass, I am in no way pro Manwin, but he didn't create this problem, and neither did Mansef, PornHum, YouPorn and any of the others.

GTS? the only way you could argue that GTS could do anything to destroy the industry is if you assume that everyone selling ads or spots through GTS was brilliant, and everyone else is an idiot, and in no way can compete unless they can purchase that traffic, those impressions, or those spots at a reasonable price.

it's easy to blame those webmaster links, they created an industry where there were almost as many sales people as there was customers, the competition was fierce, the small pie had to be devided 40,000 times by each program, the guys who got in early, and had success not due to their strategy, but simply because of the lack of competition were screwed, the younger guys who found the "webmaster" links understood technology and were quickly capturing traffic.

It's easy to blame GFY, the place has gone to shit, while there is still quite a few smart, successful and respectful people here, they are far outweighed by a bunch on adolescent school girls who just want to call each other bitches and argue about who has bigger mental problems. The board could be cleaned up, but then where would we be, the action would be slow, the people who have something to contribute would get bored waiting for something relevant to be posted, because there are not Mitt Romney threads to pass the time, and the amount of actual users online, and posts per minute would plummet the value of the advertising here to a point where it would not make sense to even employ a moderator. (not that i see one around very often now)

Of course it's easier to blame Fabian than anyone else, guy comes out of nowhere with a wallet the size of a small countries GDP, insists it's his money when everyone is trying to tie him to every low life on the planet, and instead of begging for acceptance, he said he had a plan and he was taking over. It scared the shit out of people, because they knew the basis of his ideas were products that were quickly gobbling up the majority of the adult traffic. Again, I am in no way pro Manwin, but I am pretty sure, (likely due to the amount of money which may or may not have been his going into this) that the moment he took control of Mansef, he started cleaning up their ways, and cracking down on the piracy, certainly he is no saint, certainly he is profit driven, certainly he's be happy to take us all down to grow his empire, but he didn't cause this mess.

I guess some people would find Blaming GTS just fun, with all the shit that happened with Mark a few months ago. A great salesman who realized that if you can just be the go between for a bunch of nerdy owners and a bunch of nerdy buyers who don't have the social skills to build relationships themselves, you can take 30% of the pie and spend your time drinking hard on the slopes or at the Jays game. Again, that doesn't make any of this his fault, he's just better at talking, if we all drank as hard as him, our ambitions would all be gone and he never would have been needed in the first place. (Mark, I can still drink you under the table though).

none of those ideas are in themselves significant enough to destroy an industry. Each one is certainly big enough to destroy a few lives, ruin a few careers, even take down a few significantly sized companies, but not a whole industry. It takes something way bigger for that, it takes an enormous issue, something that fundamentally impacts the integrity of an entire industry and is then compounded by the greed of the jealous, or the drive of the ambitious with no morals. It's a twelve step program that required dozens of players to execute, and years to reach it's full impact, it's a problem that is reversible, but still exists, it's a problem that the government cares about more than piracy, because they aren't quite as dumb as you think, and they know who goes to the polls to vote.

All it took was 1 question to get the ball rolling, it then snowballed into a 5 year long saga of Banks going down, processors closing shop, reputable programs selling for no other reason than the fact that they were offered a great price. It's still happening now, I'm quite confident that some of the banks I work with that purport to be top notch and stand up will undoubtedly be gone a year from now, and I will be forced to find new ones, who in turn will promises me that they will never process for the laundry list of companies that I send to new banks along with the statement "I am not interested in working with you if you have, have ever had, or will ever have, a business or personal relationship with any of these scamming fucks!".

that question was "if there was a way I could double the amount of money you make from me, could you find a way to spread my risk among your other clients". It was posed by a craft young individual in the adult space, to another crafty young individual in the banking space.

that question was followed by "If I were to pay you three times the rate I am currently paying, and I could guarantee I could increase my volume three fold, could you spread 9 times the allowable risk among your other clients and keep my hands clean.

there was then a third question that was necessary to make sure the plan could really be effective, that question was. "Are you comfortable with the idea of making soooo much money off me right now, that you won't even care if a year from now you loose your company and all your other clients get screwed, cause you'll be filthy rich, and I will buy you a Lamborghini in every color of the rainbow!"

unfortunately for us, the answer to all three questions was yes! At that time, a crafty young individual in the adult space started banging cards. Soon he realized that he didn't have enough products to bang the cards as much as he wanted to, so he called another crafty young dude and said "let me send you come cross sales" dude said "sure" knowing that crafty boy 1's program did about 500 sales a say, as he assumed the risk would be low. Problem was Crafty Boy 1 started sending 2000 cross sales a day, so crafty boy 2 say "oh fuck" and confronted crafty boy 1, who in turn said "don't worry mon! I can make you as rich as you ever imagined and show you the way of the force.

problem was, crafty boy 2 then needed somewhere to send his cross sales, so he told his friend, that happened again, and again, and again. By the time anyone realized what was going on, there were a dozen large programs banging cards left and right. Some peeps in the industry finally started to wise up and said "no, not me, I will not be a part of this" so instead of bringing new guys on board, the crafty's had to start buying programs to get new products, new corps, new individuals who's names had not been tarnished. It wasn't too tough, cause those new individuals only needed to answer 1 question. "Can i ruin your reputation, your credit, and destroy your ability to cross international borders? in turn I will pay you a fuck ton of money! and hey, what's your choice, I just bought the program you ran, I could just lay you off if you don't like my idea!".

Anyways, the idea, well the absolute truth, is that 3 years ago, somewhere in the range of 20 to 25% of every person who joined a porn site was getting completely fucked in the ass, to the point where their only recourse was to cancel their credit card. The problem is that over 50% of our customers join multiple sites, move from site to site, and try new products out, often taking more than 1 trial to a pay site every month looking for the best product. What that means is that in the matter of only a couple years, all the great customers had been fucked, and once you join a free trial, and in the first 30 days amass 17 different charges totally $475, your done paying for porn, FOR GOOD!

the first time I ever went on the internet, there was free porn. When I started in this industry, there was plenty of free porn. It's no different now, the difference is, 10 years ago people preferred to get their porn from a place they considered safe, a company that build a password protected members area filled with content, where they knew they would not be looking at illegal content, where they knew the content was sheltered from the eyes of the young. People were willing to pay for that. People haven't changed, we did, people still want to get their porn from a safe place, that will not install viruses on their pc, that will not bang the shit out of their card, unfortunately, the only place they can get that safety anymore, is a place where they don't have to give out any personal information at all, the only way they know their CC will not get banged, is if they don't use it!

[topsiteking]

Originally Posted by London Banker

agreed, those links made me curios

Speaking of people who need a bad.
Fake nick alert!

[SilentKnight]

It goes back even farther than that.

This whole mentality of getting free stuff germinated during the BBS days. The vast majority of people I knew on various BBSes were online lookin' for free porn - the most active local BBSes were always the adult ones.

And the availability of free porn grew exponentially with the Usenet newsgroups and later the web.

I wouldn't blame just the surfers-turned-webmasters - the blame is shared by content producers who developed the mentality that giving away more free content as advertising would translate to more traffic and sign-ups. It reached a critical mass and exploded in everyone's faces.

[Quagmire]

[Penny24Seven]

Do you know how many emails I have gotten that ask "what will I really be charged if I join your site?" No matter how clear I made it people were/are afraid to join a site and get fucked. That person who may have joined 1 site a month never joins another site again just so some asshole could make a quick buck. This was the big thing on here a few years ago. I do not think there is any ONE thing to blame but this is a big one

[Spunky]

I was hoping for some free pix to fap to

[SilentKnight]

Originally Posted by Spunky

I was hoping for some free pix to fap to

[Relentless]

Thoughtful post Phil.

A lot of it also stemmed from the 'surfers are all idiots and sheep' mentality. I got into this industry long after you did, and one of the first things I noticed, which seperated this industry from all others I have been in, was the disdain some site owners had for their own customers. These days the reputable companies that are left think of them as 'clients', 'consumers', VIPs... But a big part of the problem years ago was site owners thinking the people who paid for their products were dupes, dummies or in some way beneath them.

Everything from hiding the cancel links to dishonest tours, bogus members areas, strange recurring billing timelines... It became a game of cat and mouse between the scumbags and their own clients. Then when tubes came along and offered free cheese to the mice, the cats all became irate asking 'how dare they watch free porn instead of paying 30+ dollars a month for a members area full of rotated nonexclusive videos that rarely updated after the tours promised them something else entirely... And how dare the evil review sites let consumers know what my site is up to...'

[NaughtyRob]

Agreed this is what fucked things up along with tubes of course.

Originally Posted by Brian837

Do you know how many emails I have gotten that ask "what will I really be charged if I join your site?" No matter how clear I made it people were/are afraid to join a site and get fucked. That person who may have joined 1 site a month never joins another site again just so some asshole could make a quick buck. This was the big thing on here a few years ago. I do not think there is any ONE thing to blame but this is a big one

[Colmike9]

Does making FHGs and blogs with censor stars work anymore?...

I think that the general population being immune to softcore porn these days and the dying curiosity of paid internet porn has something to do with it, too..

[dgraves]

Originally Posted by OldJeff

Webmasters Click Here to make money links on porn sites.

99% of all problems would not have happened had we not tried to turn surfers into webmasters

The best and the worst are the same...downloadable content.

[Barefootsies]

Originally Posted by PR_Phil

Of course it's easier to blame Fabian than anyone else, guy comes out of nowhere with a wallet the size of a small countries GDP, insists it's his money when everyone is trying to tie him to every low life on the planet, and instead of begging for acceptance, he said he had a plan and he was taking over. It scared the shit out of people, because they knew the basis of his ideas were products that were quickly gobbling up the majority of the adult traffic. Again, I am in no way pro Manwin, but I am pretty sure, (likely due to the amount of money which may or may not have been his going into this) that the moment he took control of Mansef, he started cleaning up their ways, and cracking down on the piracy, certainly he is no saint, certainly he is profit driven, certainly he's be happy to take us all down to grow his empire, but he didn't cause this mess.

[BIGTYMER]

Originally Posted by geedub

You guys are all pathetic.

[kane]

There are two things that hurt this industry badly.

1. Greed.

2. Youtube.

Greed in the form of cross sales, card banging and shady billing practices caused many people to be wary of joining. They might have joined once, but then got hit for a $100 in cross sales and will never join again. That is no different than having a guy standing at the exit of Walmart and punching everyone in the face as they leave the store. Most people won't come back knowing they are going to get hit every time they shop there.

Youtube's simple existence caused problems because it didn't take long for someone to say, "Huh. . . I should make a porn site like that." This industry has been in a race over the last 10-12 years to see who can give away the most content and thus control the most traffic regardless of the cost. The TGP industry took it up a big notch, but the tube sites were the nuclear bomb to the TGP's semi-automatic rifle.

[xXXtesy10]

Didnt read

[Radical Bucks]

Originally Posted by BFT3K

Worst thing: FREE PORN - no question about it!

That is what I said, basically.

[Barry-xlovecam]

History may see it as the ''porn bubble.'' (Doubt that though in another 10 years.) But the ''Webmasters'' links were hardly the real reason for the decline.

[helterskelter808]

Free porn existed online long before people started selling it online. In fact it was stealing the free porn and selling it that got quite a few people started.

[PornMD]

From oldest to newest: card banging, torrent/file sharing sites, tubes. I wouldn't even say free porn in general is a bad thing, but tubes full of more free full scenes and movies than most paysites have - yea, that's bad. But card banging likely helped get some people to be afraid of paying for porn, torrents/file sharing sites made getting free full porn scenes/movies easier. Then tubes came along and made it all too easy and that's just it - it's easier to find free porn than it even is to find somewhere to pay for porn, not counting "premium accounts" at the big tube sites.

[corvette]

i think it was low-cost bandwidth that make it profitable to put content up for free and just monetize off of the the ads/upsells...then the perception became that paysites were overcharging because you could get similar content for free

[dgraves]

Originally Posted by corvette

i think it was low-cost bandwidth that make it profitable to put content up for free and just monetize off of the the ads/upsells...then the perception became that paysites were overcharging because you could get similar content for free

Good point...

[sandman!]

i think it was the tubes

[Relentless]

Originally Posted by corvette

i think it was low-cost bandwidth that make it profitable to put content up for free and just monetize off of the the ads/upsells...then the perception became that paysites were overcharging because you could get similar content for free

Very good point because that also lowered the barrier to entry to pretty much anyone. The fact that any unscrupulous asshat can throw up a site for next to no money down has definitely attracted plenty of incompetent, unethical or otherwise undesirable 'business owners' to the industry.

[tony286]

Too cheap to get in the business.

[Roald]

Originally Posted by PR_Phil

Come on, you guys are smarter than this!

Webmasters Make Money links killed online porn? give me a break.

GFY killed the industry! not a chance, although I think GFY is usually a huge waste of time, it certainly did not destroy anything, except a few peoples reputation.

Fabian Destroyed the World! I don't think so, the damage was done while he was still working for Nats.

GTS fucked up the porn industry? really? not sure how that's possible, and yes I read the post.

In 1999 when I started in the industry, every tour I saw had a "webmasters make money" link on it, the industry continued to grow.

GFY is certainly not powerful enough to have any real effect on the industry, it's a forum full of people with nothing to do, several years ago it was full of successful people in the industry, very few trolls, very few surfers, shit got done on here, relationships were solidified, deals were made, instead of fighting, people got to know their peers and organized deals and relationships.

Fabian doesn't have the power to destroy an industry that has already been decimated, just the brains to cash in on it. Don't take that as kissing ass, I am in no way pro Manwin, but he didn't create this problem, and neither did Mansef, PornHum, YouPorn and any of the others.

.....


there was then a third question that was necessary to make sure the plan could really be effective, that question was. "Are you comfortable with the idea of making soooo much money off me right now, that you won't even care if a year from now you loose your company and all your other clients get screwed, cause you'll be filthy rich, and I will buy you a Lamborghini in every color of the rainbow!"

unfortunately for us, the answer to all three questions was yes! At that time, a crafty young individual in the adult space started banging cards. Soon he realized that he didn't have enough products to bang the cards as much as he wanted to, so he called another crafty young dude and said "let me send you come cross sales" dude said "sure" knowing that crafty boy 1's program did about 500 sales a say, as he assumed the risk would be low. Problem was Crafty Boy 1 started sending 2000 cross sales a day, so crafty boy 2 say "oh fuck" and confronted crafty boy 1, who in turn said "don't worry mon! I can make you as rich as you ever imagined and show you the way of the force.

problem was, crafty boy 2 then needed somewhere to send his cross sales, so he told his friend, that happened again, and again, and again. By the time anyone realized what was going on, there were a dozen large programs banging cards left and right. Some peeps in the industry finally started to wise up and said "no, not me, I will not be a part of this" so instead of bringing new guys on board, the crafty's had to start buying programs to get new products, new corps, new individuals who's names had not been tarnished. It wasn't too tough, cause those new individuals only needed to answer 1 question. "Can i ruin your reputation, your credit, and destroy your ability to cross international borders? in turn I will pay you a fuck ton of money! and hey, what's your choice, I just bought the program you ran, I could just lay you off if you don't like my idea!".

Anyways, the idea, well the absolute truth, is that 3 years ago, somewhere in the range of 20 to 25% of every person who joined a porn site was getting completely fucked in the ass, to the point where their only recourse was to cancel their credit card. The problem is that over 50% of our customers join multiple sites, move from site to site, and try new products out, often taking more than 1 trial to a pay site every month looking for the best product. What that means is that in the matter of only a couple years, all the great customers had been fucked, and once you join a free trial, and in the first 30 days amass 17 different charges totally $475, your done paying for porn, FOR GOOD!

the first time I ever went on the internet, there was free porn. When I started in this industry, there was plenty of free porn. It's no different now, the difference is, 10 years ago people preferred to get their porn from a place they considered safe, a company that build a password protected members area filled with content, where they knew they would not be looking at illegal content, where they knew the content was sheltered from the eyes of the young. People were willing to pay for that. People haven't changed, we did, people still want to get their porn from a safe place, that will not install viruses on their pc, that will not bang the shit out of their card, unfortunately, the only place they can get that safety anymore, is a place where they don't have to give out any personal information at all, the only way they know their CC will not get banged, is if they don't use it!

No idea how many people read all of that but I did and I would like to say well said!

Edit: wow I even have to shorten it now to not go over the 1000 char max lmao

[MaDalton]

Originally Posted by Roald

No idea how many people read all of that but I did and I would like to say well said!

read it - and agree

fucking the surfer was and still is the biggest harm you can do to this industry.

and thats why tubes are successful, they are no thread to the visitor. people feel safe on Pornhub, Youporn etc. - besides finding something to jerk off to.

you can think about Manwin what you like - but they do not screw their visitors and members. they offer low quality (regarding bitrate/resolution) content for free and upsell to high quality content in large amounts for a fair price.

and most people who are bitching that Manwin was putting them out of business were still operating cookie cutter sites with 20 videos in 320x240 mpg and 2 hidden x-sales

and there are many others besides Manwin who still do very successful business - but they also offer a quality product with good customer service.

just my

[CurrentlySober]

I apenas desfrutar intrigantes ...

[Tom_PM]

I guess some people see a click and wonder what it's hide is worth as leather while others wonder what it's business is worth long term.

[peterk]

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