Barefootsies

Do you honestly believe, in your heart of hearts, that getting rid of file lockers, processors for them, and alike will actually put the online porn industry genie back into the bottle?

By that I mean, considering the percentage of the industry (traffic, production, distribution) that Manwin now controls, do you think that there is going to be a resurgence in affiliates, or the middle class of the online industry? Or do you believe that certain elements of the "good ole days" are completely over?

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sperbonzo

I think that it will make a difference, and that the resurgance may lead to some new marketing and content delivery stategies that may really get things back on track, in terms of revenues....


..... Having said that, I don't think it will be the way it was in 1998 to 2004....




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Roald

Things will never get back to the "good old days" level anymore as its simply impossible to a chief. It's also against all technological progress we have made since we can not reverse that.

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Tijuana_Tom

Naw it's over.

Maybe Manwin will think up an idea to help the average webmaster make money again.

NaughtyRob

No but it can't hurt seeing them go.

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The Porn Nerd

If you look at other entertainments industries like music and films, even video games, the "good ole days" are gone forever.

What we're left with are a handful of major players, a "middle class" of semi-large players and a whole host of "little guys" who can get by quite nicely, depending on where they live, with $100k or so a year in income.

Shutting down this site or that, or implementing this piracy-killer technology or that digital fingerprinting solution or whatever will only "benefit" the largest players and a handful of 'medium'-sized companies. The "little guys" getting by comfortably on $100K a year won't see a differance because their volume/productivity isn't high enough to see a significant change in percentages.

So.....no.

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gabe100

[QUOTE=Barefootsies;19017301]Do you honestly believe, in your heart of hearts, that getting rid of file lockers, processors for them, and alike will actually put the online porn industry genie back into the bottle?

Nope.

By that I mean, considering the percentage of the industry (traffic, production, distribution) that Manwin now controls, do you think that there is going to be a resurgence in affiliates, or the middle class of the online industry? Or do you believe that certain elements of the "good ole days" are completely over?

RIP good old days. The aim is still the same. To create the best mousetrap possible to attract the joins, then make it Christmas everyday for the members and retain them for years. Beyond that, indeed, the good old days - as beautifully magical as they were - are long gone.

Grapesoda

that's what I'm thinking

Rochard

I think it would make a difference for sure.

But I believe some of our lack of sales is because of the recession, as well as the consumer has grown wiser. It will never be like 2004.

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Barefootsies

I was browsing through a number of sites this afternoon to get some ideas while brainstorming, and it was a sad case for porn surfers. It was like site after site of the same exact content, promo clips or whatever. Same advertising, same clips, same shit screaming at you, viagra, whatever.

Assuming they actually had anything that looked new, unique, or different you just got bounced around in a circle jerk. Unless you have to patience to click the same image 20 times, with live jasmin, fuck tube, and other howling at the moon pop ups going off... I can't see why anyone would put up with this just for FREE.

But I digress....

What inspired this question was reading some of Robbie and DWB's remarks in addition to the celebration of Oron and other sites being pulled, losing their processing, and alike. I mean, if you lose these sites, I suppose it's great to some degree.

However, the choices left in the marketplace are a handful of big programs, an enormous monolith, clips4sale, and some nichey folk who can still turn a decent buck. The rest seem to be traffic guys (the Miami conference was a good example of this).

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Tijuana_Tom

Video Games is still incredible for little guys. apple store, android play and xbox live... Video games did an incredible job fighting piracy..

Movies people really want the experience of the theater and the highest quality picture and sound at home.

The internet has forced the Music industry to change drastically but it's become easier for more people to get into it to make money. Revenue streams were created thanks to the internet but at the same time very hurt by piracy.

Adult is straight fucked.

papill0n

not a chance in hell

Ayla_SquareTurtle

Are the good old days really gone for the film industry? Don't they continue to break box office records every time a new Avatar/Dark Knight/Whatever comes out?

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Tijuana_Tom

You can't compare porn to any other industry. It's a tiny market of people who actually give a shit about the product.

Unlike movies, music, video games where it's the majority of the population who are able to emotionally connect and become almost obsessed with the content..

You all got cocky thinking "People love us!" when i reality it was "People are impulse shoppers."

magicmike

It would help, but not bring back the glory days.

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iSpyCams

Think about the people who are not complaining and look at what they are doing.

A lot of the people crying about low revenue now are bandwagon jumpers who jumped a bandwagon that was already coasting to a halt.

Consumers are not perceiving value in static content anymore. Still, the guys who are out there shooting fresh quality stuff are making a living, some are making a good one. I am talking about guys shooting fresh quality stuff, not guys who are doing blurry pics of meth whores and calling it "GF style"

Cam sites are not complaining, many of them are doing so well they are treating affiliates like shit because they reached critical mass long ago and don't need anyone to send them traffic.

Dating sites seem to be doing OK as well, haven't heard of any catastrophic failures in awhile.

I don't hear many Gay programs whining, although some card bangers offering gay content seem to be having difficulty.

The tube model relies on static content as bait to sell tangible goods (penis pills) and interactive entertainment (cams and dating) and also some upsell to premium (hi def) content delivery.

This model is working so well that (based on what I hear on this board) Manwin is able to license content it used to use without paying for it, going so far as to buy not only the licenses, but the license holding companies as well. Now why would they do that if they believed piracy was going to make all that content worthless? (that's a real question - not rhetorical)

So I think the world hasn't really changed that much, it's just that the short window where even a suck-ass loser could make a living doing shitty work is over, and the ones doing it right are making less - true, but that's the case in every industry right now except lobbying and big oil pretty much.

Tijuana_Tom

Most people frown upon complaining or looking as if they may not be succeeding.

What you can look at is the lack of people bragging about how great things are.

OG's The guys who invented this industry are dropping like flies and going to mainstream or just retiring because they are old enough.

Content producers and content are not busy today. I have my pick over people who a few years ago were too busy for me.

GF stuff is going nuts with surfers. It's reinvigorated the whole Teen niche that really drove the entire online porn industry since the beginning.

Cam sites? come on. Pipe dream.

Dating? and Penis Pills? come on. no scams.

It's a smaller niche, less popular, less pirated, etc, not comparable.

This is very complicated. Not really relevant to the adult industry as a whole.

You're wrong and it didn't have to be this way.

Deej

What a dumb question...

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Three.Thousand

All i know i, getting rid of file lockers and stopping processors process for them, and hosts host for them, will get rid of people making money off of my hard work.

Regardless of if i end up making more or less.

BFT3K

If this business wasn't so pathetic, heads would have rolled early on.

A few early tubesters and a few early file share site owners should have been swimming with the fishes years ago, so the theft was never encouraged.

People read about the megaupload asshole, and how much money he was making sharing shit he never had to pay for, and now everyone and their brother wants in... especially since no fucking heads ever roll.

BFT3K

Oron still processes payments 7 ways from Sunday.

DWB

No more than I believe stopping a single burglar in my house will stop all home burglaries.

That said, I'm not going to just sit on the sofa and allow a burglar have off with my phone, TV, jewelry, or any other item he wants to remove from my possession. In fact, if I caught someone in my house stealing my DVDs, I would shoot him where he stood without a second thought. Online theft doesn't give me that luxury, so we fight them however we can fight them.

Fighting pirates for me has nothing to do with "putting the genie back in the bottle," and everything to do with putting an end to them stealing my property, or at the very least, reducing what is stolen. And just like you can't possibly stop every single person who may want to or actually break into your home, you can stop some of them and you can make improvements to your house to make it more difficult to break into. However, to do nothing is as ignorant as leaving your garage door open and the keys in your car while you go to sleep every night.

I wish everyone who thinks people who fight piracy are just dreaming the glory days of porn to return would stop thinking that, because that is not the case. Yet that is the #1 thing that people like to say, because haters gotta hate and many of them are pirates and shit stains themselves who are stealing from others in the industry. How about the simply concept of... they stole my property so I'm going to do something about it. Yes, I know that is a huge concept for simple minded freeloaders, but that's the way it is.

raymor

Industrialization is irreversible. Mom and pop shops largely went away 150 years ago. The only reason we had them online adult was because the industry was so new - it took fifteen years for the industry to be industrialized. When I started, we were hunting and gathering Playboy scans. Now ie's a modern industry.

As in other industries, small shops will continue to serve niche markets, especially anything that can't be "factory" produced, like porn made-to-order. For general babe sites, companies like Manwin have huge advantages. The biggest advantage being that they don't have one person doing everything. For example, they can have one bookeeper for a hundred sites. The little guys would pay one bookkeeper for one site (or for five). If you have to pay a bookkeeper, or a programmer, there's a big advantage to amortizing the cost across a company the size of Manwin. They can also hire BETTER marketing people, better designers, etc. compared to the little guy trying to do it all himself. Big companies are just more efficient.


Therefore it's becoming just like any other industry - the middle class is the guy making $60,000 working at Manwin. The middle class stays, the tradesman is really a relic of the 1800s who made a brief appearance online.

signupdamnit

Honestly I think overall it's fucked no matter what we do unless either:

1. A good 75% or more of the industry including Manwin and the big processors unite to put a stop to the rampant piracy. (odds 1:10,000,000)

2. A global anti-piracy effort comes to pass and significant law changes take place worldwide within the next few years. (odds: 1:1,000,000)

3. Effective to a smaller extent- Major porn buying countries such as the U.S., U.K., Canada make law changes in their jurisdiction which are effective in shutting down access to piracy within their respective countries. (odds: 1:10,000)

All this being said I think if you have a rare micro-niche pay site or you are an affiliate promote one it can make a *tremendous* difference if you can get the content off the file lockers and DMCA tubes. I've seen it with my own eyes. There generally is a significant conversion different between companies who have a hands off approach to piracy and those who are fighting.

OTOH if you are selling teen pay sites or something like that where surfers can go everywhere you're still pretty fucked even if you keep your stuff off because the surfers have so many other choices within the niche. You need a concentrated effort among all in your niche to make a real difference.

CurrentlySober

It wont make a huge difference, but it would at the very least be a step in the right direction.

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DWB

I have to celebrate any victory, no matter how small it may be, even if it is temporary, against those who have stolen from me and everyone else. It makes my day to know that theirs was ruined.

iSpyCams

We can go back and forth on the details all you want, the point I am trying to make though, is that people who see how things are now and the direction they are going are doing better and will continue to do better than those who remember how it was and try to make it go back to being that way.

DWB

I survive within micro-niche markets, and that is why I fight them. It makes a difference for us.

jimmycooper

That could also be indicative of a classier more educated workforce with a wider breadth of experience.

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Relentless

There is no point in comparing 'now' to 'before' because 'before is gone and won't be coming back.
There is a major point with comparing what is 'now' and what 'will be'

Ask if getting rid of them would be better than 'now'... Not if it will be as good as 'before'

Trend

IMHO "The Good Old Days" are gone for a whole host of reasons and circumstances that followed the same path as most commodities.

Personally, the good old days simply meant "easy money" or better.... "lazy money"

Honestly, I'm not sure I know how to make "easy money" online any longer.

What I am sure of is.... I know how to make $250k +/yr online by working as hard as I did in a "suit and tie" job that paid me less.

And that is just fine with me.

signupdamnit

In that case then "Hell yes!" It's like asking if the doctor should try to stop the blood loss to a patient who has a gunshot wound to the stomach. Does he want to live or die?

NewNick

Where is Markham to deliver the real answer.......



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DWB

Good post.

To do nothing today, means we are even more fucked tomorrow.

JimmyStephans

I know from experience that I make more money when my content is not easy to get for free.

Examples: 2009 I spent hours and hours and thousands of dollars going after a site named wp-board.com. I got it shut down and you can read the entire story here:

http://wp-board.com/

Within 60 days I had broken my all time sales record (most active subscribers at one time) by at least 500 members and I managed to retain those members a long damn time.

I also made almost $200,000.00 in settlements - 1/2 of which was given to charities.

I have 2 guys that are still paying me monthly on settlements, and are active paying subscribers!

Fast forward to summer 2011. I found a forum with my stuff - full site rips and every update posted. I was able to get a few real names and sued guys (Google: James S. Grady VS. )... as soon as suits started that forum, and two others, took down sections / posts related to my stuff. Days later, I could watch sales climb.

Both years I had done nothing else (no promos, no discounts, no ads) that would cause the increased sales. All I did was cut off the source of free stuff.

For me - its not about thinking it will be like the glory days if we can kill file lockers. They are gone.

Its about improving today and making them as good for business as possible.

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Yngwie

Sure, it will make a difference in certain ways, but will it increase sales or traffic for us? No, it will not. Too many people have their expectations set way to high when it comes to this.

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LeRoy

It's going to get worse before it gets better. Sad but true...

Tube site owners know how to hide behind DMCA. They will rape your brands as much as they can.

Then it's drinks on us @ the shows right?

The level of disrespect is completely insane!

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garce

No, I do not.

Manwin is irrelevant to me and the 42 people who care about what I do. I have no interest in glossy, generic sites or pornstars. Neither do my 41 followers (Damn, I just lost another one...)

Don't care about file lockers or file-sharing sites.

The only way to make your business successful is to build your business around a business plan that you believe your business has a chance of succeeding in.

Blindly hoping that the failure of a currently successful business will boost the profits of your unsuccessful business does not bode well for the future of the business model you are attempting to succeed with.

garce

No offense, but I heard this waaaay back in 2002. Or maybe 2003... Who's to say?

trevesty

I pretty much agree with this..


but I'd also like to add that the money and spending consumers are still there, they're just not going to like the 2002-esque TGP style sites.

DWB

Well done.

And that is exactly what happened. It keeps getting worse.

xenigo

Yep. I've heard people saying the good old days are gone since I got into this business in '99. LOL It's all relative I suppose.

TheSquealer

Traffic will always gravitate to free content. Someone will always provide that to attract/retain traffic.

This was true in 1997, it is true today.

There was never a bottle and never a genie.

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Barefootsies

I am not bashing you champ. You know I love both you and Robbie. That doesn't mean we always agree. I was just seeing a lot of celebrations of late, and with what I see out there in the marketplace, I am not sure there is a lot of diversity left.

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DamianJ

You have to be pro piracy posting shit like this, idiot!

Barefootsies

Very true.

Ten years ago, there were a few real corporate sites, and a ton of porn. Now everyone, and everything is on the net. There is more things for a surfer to do in the limited online time they have per day. The credit markets and surfers mentality was different as well.

That is why I think that even if you COULD stop all of the Oron, forum, file locker type stuff, you still have so many other variables for the online market place, I am not sure it would make a dent in the grand scheme of things.

With all of that being said, I am not bashing anyone. I am really just curious in regards to all of the celebrations lately and what people realistically think it will bring to their bottom lines in the near future.

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Barefootsies

/sarcasm

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ilnjscb

I think surfers would see something that might break their resistance, and they would scour the internet for it, and they'd be unable it find it for free, or anything very like it. After enough times, their resistance might break. Once broken, they have a better chance of buying again.

Barefootsies

I suppose that depends on a lot of factors.

I will concede it's possible in the older demographic. If I see something that strikes my fancy, I will go check out their site or clip store and typically make a purchase. Sadly, there are many many many times where there is no watermark or details on the clip. So that person or company is losing out on those of us who are happy to pay for quality porn.

I would bet that if you had all the tube sites providing grainy, crappy, content for free... you would stand a better chance of enticing memberships. People would be more interested in the quality. Same if you pulled a real player every 30 seconds with "buffering". You would frustrate people into paying.

Now that is a novel concept I agree, as the next tube site owner down the line who is just selling traffic would provide 100% HD, full length, fast loading content because he doesn't give a shit about converting memberships. He's all about traffic.

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