JOH

http://www.ziarifleandpistolclub.com...trol_stats.htm

In 1929, the Soviet Union established gun control. From 1929 to 1953, approximately 20 million dissidents, unable to defend themselves, were rounded up and exterminated.

In 1911, Turkey established gun control. From 1915 to 1917, 1.5 million Armenians, unable to defend themselves, were rounded up and exterminated.

In 1938, Germany established gun control. From 1939 to 1945, 13 million Jews, gypsies, homosexuals, the mentally ill, and others, who were unable to defend themselves, were rounded up and exterminated.

In 1935, China established gun control. From 1948 to 1952, 20 million political dissidents were unable to defend themselves and were rounded up and exterminated.

In 1964, Guatemala established gun control. From 1964 to 1981, 100,000 Mayan Indians, unable to defend themselves, were rounded up and exterminated.

In 1970, Uganda established gun control. From 1971 to 1979, 300,000 Christians, unable to defend themselves, were rounded up and exterminated.

In 1956, Cambodia established gun control. From 1975 to 1977, one million "educated" people, unable to defend themselves, were rounded up and exterminated.

That places total victims who lost their lives because of gun control at approximately 56 million in the last century. Since we should learn from the mistakes of history, the next time someone talks in favor of gun control, find out which group of citizens they wish to have exterminated.


http://www.stats.org/statswork/britannica.htm


http://www.guncite.com/gun_control_gcgvintl.html


Australia, England and Washington D.C, have gun control, can you protect your family?

Foolish to think restricting guns will give you safety, evil will use illegal guns to sustain their ambishions(sp) knowing you have less defensive measures to secure your freedoms.

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Joe Sixpack

There is virtually ZERO gun violence in Australia.

There is no need for a gun here. I have pick handle near my front door and I've never had to use it.

realityvoyeur

yeah, i'm from Sydney.

If some idiot breaks into my house I have a great baseball bat with spikes.

Its my sticky stick.

JOH

http://www.old-hippie.com/doc_files/...un_control.htm


It has now been 12 months since gun owners in Australia were forced to surrender 640,381 personal firearms to be destroyed, a program costing the government more than $500 million dollars.

And now the results are in: Australia-wide, homicides are up 3.2 percent; Australia-wide, assaults are up 8.6 percent; Australia-wide, armed robberies are up 44 percent (yes, 44 percent). In the state of Victoria, homicides with firearms are up 300 percent. Figures over the previous 25 years show a steady decrease in armed robbery with firearms (changed drastically in the past 12 months). There has been a dramatic increase in break-ins and assaults of the elderly.

Australian politicians are on the spot and at a loss to explain how no improvement in "safety" has been observed after such monumental effort and expense was successfully expended in "ridding society of guns."

Bet you wont see this data on the evening news or hear your governor or members of the state Assembly disseminating this information. It's time to state it plainly: Guns in the hands of honest citizens save lives and property and, yes, gun-control laws only affect the law-abiding citizens.

Take note, Americans, before it's too late!


Is this the Truth? I checked it out and it was in the Paper.
It wouldn't surprise me one bit though.

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Joe Sixpack

NRA has our gun laws all wrong, say Australians

An NRA infommercial and Web site video is under fire for saying violence has increased after gun control.

Shawn Donnan
Special to The Christian Science Monitor

SYDNEY, AUSTRALIA

Ever since it severely tightened gun laws in the aftermath of the 1996 massacre of 35 people by a lone gunman in historic Port Arthur, Australia has been held up as an example by gun control advocates all over the world.

But that has now made the land Down Under a target for the National Rifle Association of America (NRA), which in its bid to block stricter gun laws from going into effect in the US has this week found itself in a fight with the Australian government. In a half-hour television ad broadcast in the US and over its Web site, the NRA claims that since the so-called Port Arthur laws were introduced, Australia has seen a rise in crime of epidemic proportions.

"If you follow politics at all, you know a lot of people in Washington want to take away your right to keep and bear arms," NRA president Charlton Heston says in the video. "The truth is, they've got the whole world in their sights."

Since the new laws were introduced in Australia, the video goes on to claim, armed robberies have risen 69 percent. Assaults with guns have increased 28 percent. And murders with guns have gone up 19 percent.

A narrator ominously describes "gun laws that have backfired and Australians that have been forced to hide behind bars and dead bolts" as the camera pans over a deserted suburban street.

The problem is that according to the Australian government - and official statistics - the NRA has its facts wrong and may just have the wrong target in its sights. "There are many things that Australia can learn from the United States. How to manage firearm ownership is not one of them," Australia's attorney general, Daryl Williams, wrote in a letter sent Thursday to Mr. Heston, demanding that what Mr. Williams called a misleading portrayal of Australia be pulled off the air.

Williams told reporters this week: "One gets somewhat outraged when an organization based in the United States, where there are 11,000 firearms homicides in one year, is telling us our gun laws fail when our statistics show that in 1998 there [were] only 54 firearms homicides, which was a significant reduction from [the] previous year."

NRA spokesman Bill Powers in Fairfax, Va., did not want to comment on the video yesterday, but says of Williams's request: "I'm sure that's something we'll look at."

According to Jenny Mouzos, a research analyst at the Australian Institute of Criminology, the figures used by the NRA are downright misleading.

For instance, Ms. Mouzos says, although armed robberies in Australia have indeed increased since 1996, the portion of those involving firearms has actually decreased. In 1997 there were 2,185 robberies involving firearms in Australia, 24.1 percent of all armed robberies. But in 1998 that fell to 1,910 and 17.6 percent, according to data compiled by the Australian Bureau of Statistics.

The number of murders involving guns has also fallen, according to Mouzos, from 99 (including the 35 killed at Port Arthur) in 1996 to 54 in 1998.

That doesn't necessarily mean Australia's gun-control bid is working, Mouzos cautions. "It's too early to tell," she says. "But if you look at the figures, because there have been declines, they are encouraging." The Australian figures are tough to read for trends because they are so small and therefore statistically volatile, Mouzos says.

But that is another reason the Australian government is incensed with the NRA's attack - the level of gun-related violence in Australia simply doesn't compare to that seen in the US.

According to Williams, there were just 0.28 firearms-related homicides for every 100,000 people in Australia in 1998, compared with about 4 for every 100,000 in the US. Australia, which is the size of the continental US but has a population only slightly bigger than the state of New York, saw 333 murders in 1998. According to FBI statistics, Chicago police reported 322 in the first six months of 1999, while New York City reported 341.

However, not everyone agrees that the government has a right to be outraged. Although the gun lobby here has seen much of its power eroded in recent years, there is still an ongoing debate over gun control in Australia.

Gun-rights advocates still see the Port Arthur laws as an opportunistic round of policy-on-the-run, assembled by politicians eager not to get in the way of a public angered by the tragedy. The gunman, Martin Bryant, is now serving consecutive life terms.

The speed with which the legislation passed is amazing to someone used to observing US-style politics. The Port Arthur massacre took place on April 28, 1996. By May 10 politicians were already working on passing legislation.

"It was a very sudden action," says Keith Tidswell, spokesman for the Sporting Shooters Association of Australia, a group with strong ties to the NRA (it twice received US$6,050 grants from the NRA in the early 1990s).

And according to Mr. Tidswell, who keeps a photo of himself and his wife with Heston above his desk, the legislation imposing restrictions on gun ownership and banning automatic and semi-automatic guns, as well as pump- action shotguns, has only served to punish legitimate, law-abiding gun owners.

"In reality, I think gun control is not the way to lower your crime rates," Tidswell says. "You are pulling the wool over your eyes if you think that it is. There are many other social issues that need to be addressed."

But Australian gun-control activists insist the laws have worked. The best evidence of that, says Simon Chapman, author of "Over Our Dead Bodies: Port Arthur and Australia's Fight for Gun Control," is the fact that there hasn't been another massacre - or murder involving the killing of four or more people in one place - in the four years since Port Arthur. "In the nine years before, there were 10 such incidents," he says. "Statistically we're doing extremely well."

The thing that people on both sides of the debate in Australia recognize is that the Australian laws would probably have little chance of making it in the US. There is no equivalent to the Second Amendment in Australia. And even though they have an image as rugged, Crocodile Dundee-type individualists, Australians tend not to have the same fear of regulation that Americans do.

Australians, says Mr. Chapman, embraced random breath testing for drunk drivers a lot earlier than the US. Australia was also, he says, the first country in the world to make the wearing of both seat belts and motorcycle helmets mandatory.

Gun owners in Australia, says Tidswell, the gun-rights activist, also labor under a different perception in the public mind than their counterparts in the US.

While owning a handgun may be perfectly normal for a suburban couple in parts of the US, in Australia even owning a hunting rifle can be looked on derisively. "Many people here see firearms ownership and equate that with something evil," says Tidswell. But, he adds: "I think that is also coming in the US."

JOH

Joe Sixpack!

Give me a Link!!! You have something to hide?

"Special to The Christian Science Monitor ", source of your rebuttal? LOL

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LiveDose

I love my guns. I would never give them up.

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JOH

I'm a Bloodbrother of TNUSA and NRA! Second Amendment Rights " To Keep and Bear Arms"!!!!

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Joe Sixpack

http://www.csmonitor.com/atcsmonitor...ries/guns.html

Note this section in particular:

"According to Williams, there were just 0.28 firearms-related homicides for every 100,000 people in Australia in 1998, compared with about 4 for every 100,000 in the US."

Guns = Gun Violence

JOH

Thanks for the link.

Do you hunt?

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JOH

http://www.csmonitor.com/2002/0510/p10s02-comv.html


You are " Anti Gun " and I am "Pro Gun", you have misleading factual evidence to justify your statements. Enough said!!!

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rooster

id be interested in what percentage of gun deaths are in the "hood".

JOH

Question? Every "hood" is less scum we deal with!

I hope 100 percent!!

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nikudorei

not everyne needs guns in australia. A pick handle is truely enough in most cases.. We are not as violent as other countries.

I grew up on a farm, i got my first gun at 10. My mother was the ladies western australian champion clay pigeon shooting for 2 years.

I honestly dont think people in the AU cities need guns. cops yah. sports shooters yah why not. everyday citizens just dont. firearm violence is not big here.

You cant compare US and AU.. they are totally diff places.

of course i support farmers having guns still. they do need them, vermin control etc.

the firearm laws in australia are not ideal, but better then unrestricted access.

I am not sure which side of the fence i sit on, but i do like shooting..
I think we control alcohol because it is a dangerous substance. guns are also dangerous. control is necessary.. but to what degree is the problem.

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Joe Sixpack

What is misleading?

rooster

My hypothisis is since we have so many illegals and minorities in an endless cycle of handout poverty, that it is hard to compare America to some all white country.

So places like canada, australian, and alot of euro nations that get on their high horse on this issue, dont have the same issues in their country.

bhutocracy

JOH don't even think of talking about Australia's gun control laws. The two countries are incredibly different on this issue.
I used to think that because we had so few murders and so few guns that gun control in America would work and championed it as a good thing. The fact is, you guys are crazy about guns to a degree not seen here.
Here it's always been really ABNORMAL to own a gun, only farmers really had them, I'd estimate that 80%-90% of people outside of rural areas have never even seen a gun owned by another person (not a policeman). I've never seen a handgun even though I grew up in a semi-rural area around shotguns and rifles (I still have an air-rifle illegally). We really don't feel the need for them. The idea of selling guns in the sports section of walmart or whatever would seem proposterous to us.
Also the culture is too different here to compare. While i'd agree that banning guns would reduce gun deaths as a generality, it's really only in the massacre/passion/accident situation. Normal gun crime and deaths would still occur.
It comes far more down to culture.. look at Canada, heaps of guns, not many gun deaths. They're just not as quick to settle the argument with violence, not as many people below the poverty line committing violent crime. It's much more a societal thing.
Arguing about the Australian situation also undercuts the thrust of your argument - you maintain that gun ownership is a crime deterrant. Well in Australia most people don't own guns so you could walk up to 99.9% of people on the street of Sydney before the gun laws were passed and they wouldn't be armed. Taking them away in '96 didn't make it any easier for crims to mug someone.. no-one had 'em on them anyways.

nikudorei

i totally agree with you here. you cant compare Au and US. especially in this gun thing. My Australian friend went to St Louis recently and when he came back he said it was a totally alien place to him.... he said he heard of someone being shot coz he looked at some guys car. can u say fucked.

u guys (us) do what works for you. the right to bear arms is in your constitution isnt it? I can understand you being so passionate about it in that case... you yanks sure do like that constitution =P

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JOH

You have my respect, spoke your heart fealt feelings. Keep an open mind and be vigilante.

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d0se

Got constitution? EAT MORE FIBRE

bhutocracy

got me stumped.. probably because the article is not from an independant site - he doesn't know it was mainstream news here and it just happens that site has got a copy.. although even if the link was to our biggest national newspaper he'd still probably call it propaganda.. Even though the stats come fromt he Australian Bureau of Statistics. The NRA patently lied on that one and got caught outin it's propaganda, anyone can go and check the stats.

that article he linked to had a interesting quote :

"Out of the 7,875 handgun homicides in 1998, only 1.2 percent were justifiable handgun killings of an assailant unknown to the person defending themselves. Most killings with handguns are by people who know each other, and often such guns are used against their owner. "

nikudorei

i need a lover that wont drive me crazy.
*repeat*

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nikudorei

thanks mate.

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Joe Sixpack

Australia is one of the most muti-cultural nations in the world.

JOH

The Australia's gun control policies took farmers and recreational shooters , as well as, gun collectors to hand over guns to be destroyed or registered. Tell me if that is factual!!!! Nothin' to do with Canada, Australia, and differance between countries social cultures.

Facts! Give me them!!

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nikudorei

autos and semi autos were banned.

farmers could keep non semi auto rifles, and sports shooters could keep their guns semi, fullysuto whatever.

thats all the facts i can remember right now, i will try and find some hard facts for you.

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bhutocracy

You're allowed to have guns if you're a farmer for pest control or a recreational shooter. but nothing crazy not uzi's or anything.

bhutocracy

.22 rifles and shotguns if you're a farmer.

HeadPimp

I just know that if they ever sweep that sort of legislation into this country, you most likely will see a revolution... I grew up in North Idaho and there are tons of guns up there. Not many shooting deaths... Usually it was from someone shooting themselves accidentally while hunting...

don't piss off the rednecks!

nikudorei

doesnt your constitution include the right to bear arms or something? doesn tthat protect you against those kind of laws?

*blinks stupidly*

please enlighten me

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bhutocracy

which is all we ever used on my grandfathers farm. So it's not a big deal. But you have to show you're a farmer...

JOH

True, basic firearms I own, and a 30-06 and 54 Caliber muzzleloader to hunt.

Not a gun maniac, just a hunter for all seasons.

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bhutocracy

yeah thats all good. as far as im concerned farming hunting etc it's all fine.. I don't hunt but I fish it's just uzi's, assault rifles and handguns in the city we don't need... but we never really had that anyways... only really handguns.
I'm a little peeved I have to register my AIR-RIFLE! and get a sporting shooters thingy.. but hey... i'll get round to it eventually.

nikudorei

hahahaha

get around to it eventually =) your such an aussie.

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webbastard

It makes a great teeshirt!

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xxxdesign-net

Haha, I just love it when idiots try to elevate themselves by calling others idiots...

bhutocracy

hahaha... well it's a bit out of my way.. not something I use a lot.. of no danger or threat to anyone even if I wanted it to be.. so it's a case of when I could be bothered

sumphatpimp

why is GFY such a magnet for all these head cases?

gun control crap on a webmaster board?

wtf ?

JOH

Get over a "shooter thingy"? What other freedoms are you willing to give up? LOL Next time your government wants you to wear a "tether", to monitor your wearabouts let me know how you feel!!

You have rolled over and played dead, hitler had done the same to his people, look how many died.

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bhutocracy

If you're really that scared of your government vote for someone else.
We don't worry about that shit here.. lol mao-tse-howard LOL.. can you imagine it? All those countries are a little different with different histories to happy-go-lucky Australia.
With George Bush and his Patriot Act though.. maybe you're right..

xxxdesign-net

and what do you have to hide fucker..!?

bhutocracy

It's different here, we're not as paranoid or scared of our government or environment, we're also not 1930's germany so it's a bit pointless to try to even juxtapose us.

So what if i have to get a shooter's license?.. big deal. what purpose did my air rifle serve? shooting pests on the farm way back in the day and target practice as a teen.. not something I do either of now.
I have to get a driver's license to drive a car.. why not a gun? It seriously doesn't bother me in principle except for the fact that air-rifles got thrown in with the rest given their non-lethality.
Here in Australia we don't worry about the government wanting us to wear tethers. maybe you should move if you're that scared!
You know as well as I do that thats a silly thing to bring to the argument.
Believe it or not most people can discern the difference between freedoms we need and freedoms that don't matter if they're regulated (driving, drinking, smoking, shooting etc)

JOH

Hide? I created this thread and have nothing to hide!! You are jealous you have very little to give on this topic. LOL

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webbastard

Point taken... I'd love to live in happy-go-lucky Australia!

Unfortunatly the govenment there controls immigration tighter than a virgins asshole and any unwelcomed guests get to live in those nice detainment camps to keep them isolated from the population. (Hell, we don't even have decent fences on our borders.)

Maybe that's why it's so happy-go-lucky. That, plus a zillion miles of ocean to help it stay isolated; plus friendly people and a non-agreesive government... hmmm.

Shit. How do I get in?

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nikudorei

marry an aussie
*winks and shakes his ass*

heheheh.

i want a hoe. someone email me a slag. now.
danke

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nikudorei

sorry that was way off topic.

email me a slag with an ak47

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JOH

Excepting to freely give up priveliges of law abiding citizens and diminish their freedoms is cowardly. Has anyone tried to stop this erosion of basic freedoms? Just a question, nothin' intended.

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nikudorei

people tried to stop it were mainly country people. most city people were not bothered by it, as we said, not many australians own guns in the cities.
*90% of AU population is in the cities*
thats about all i can remember...

in australia we are much more likely to settle disputes with fists then guns. its our way. we fight, make up and drink more beer.

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JOH

Good Night! Love debate, and hate TV!!! Night All!

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letshunt

Gun control, huh?

Well, I hunt nearly three month of the year. I don't particularly care what I government wants me to do with my guns, cause I won't register them under any circumstances.

I have mostly high powered rifles, a small as a .243 and as large a .50 Nitro Mag...they're mine, end of story. The government paid me to snipe people they sure as hell aren't going to tell me I can't hunt.

Handguns? They are great for learning breath control and trigger technique, as any mistakes are magnified with a handgun. I have a couple, some to shoot in target leagues, one to shoot someone that shouldn't be in my house.

There are more the 200 million guns in distribution in the US...all this nonsense about banning guns is just hot air... no one is gonna turn in their guns or register them.

Hell, we close school here on the opening day of deer season cause none of the high school kids will be there. We may be a tad more into hunting than some area's. I don't need any politician telling me what I can and can't do, they already control too much of my life as it is.

Oh, Joe Sixpack, I don't know how many rounds I have fired between a lifetime of hunting and military service, but it is up there with the best of them....I haven't shot anything I didn't mean to shot yet.

The NRA Gun Safety course should be a requirement for all hunters, I will only hunt with three guys, all ex special forces guys, cause I trust them. both my daughters have taken the course and one is an exception goose hunter, she calls well and knocks em out of the sky,then we have a feast.

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