Hey ilnjscb
Honestly, I don't take the "ratios" too seriously if they are not contextualized.
1:3000 can be a catastrophe or a goldmine, or anything in the middle, depending on the model of your business. If you bought each click 10c each, you'd go bust by the next day, with this ratio.
On the other hand, if the "3000" in the equation is merely views on a tube that pays for its bandwidth, it makes a very scalable business case to me. Personally, I don't find helpful to compare this "3000" to a "300" of some different model/traffic/technological era/etc . In this sense, it's not a "low" but just a different way to make money.

The larger point for me is the following.
People are consuming more porn today than in any other era in human history - as they are consuming more music today than in any other era. Neither thing is a bad one for me.

Both music and porn come largely for free, and this is mostly due to the technology. Digital is cheap, convenient, and easily reproduced.
One may like such technology or dislike it: but the traditional music industry has crashed frontally while disliking it. In the meanwhile, though, the very same music revolution helped Apple become the most valuable company in the world.

In any breakthrough, there are Schumpeter's losers and winners.

In all honesty, I don't see for myself a worsening signup/effort.

I believe one root cause is that we asked ourselves what type of added value we could provide, in a tube-era, with a paysite.

We are not trying to build paysites that are "mini-tubes with a theme", as some traditional paysites out there. Instead, we try to provide a homely experience that typically tubes are not well placed to do. Gone are tours, member areas, etc. We basically create personal concepts with a voice and a fairly credible storyline, leave comments open, engage in conversations and interactions with guests and members, with a 'persona' in the mix. Memberships just pay for the convenience of videos dowloadable in place, in the context of this open model. Some people will never pay, but enough do.

I'm sure this wouldn't work for every niche (I can't see a babe-site done this way), but for our type of content, as for other paysites -we did not invent it-, works well enough to be scaled.:2 cents:

I already made up my mind that I wont read the replies because it will be like pages from a book...

:):) Creative Destruction, Yeah!

Or you could call it massively disruptive. Either way you are right, the reality dictates the response.

hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahaha

There are many tube models.

I rather have 1,000,000 visitors a day converting 1:10,000 than having 10,000 visitors converting 1:500 ....

Ask the people who shoot for them. This is what I see. Most of the big ones are still doing very well, it's the layer under them that are not doing so well. They are cutting back. The small are suffering the worse. And this is absolutely normal in times like this, the big can trim a few people or not, get more aggressive or not. All we know for sure was a company thought of as big, when they went public the truth was out.

This is something I posted on another board. In a famine the weak suffer first, if the famine continues, then the stronger suffer, if the famine isn't stopped even the biggest die. Think in terms of a river drying up. A river of people willing to pay at the door.

Please don't debate this with PJ. This debate is so over his head it's amazing. He missed the obvious when using Coke ads as a comparison.

I didn't reply with a single point you wanted to hear. Here's the crux of the problem.And I will display PJ's stupidity in posting it.

Coke advertise of NBC, for instance or for NBC read where ever they do advertise.

Do NBC buy, create and own the content or the license for the content on all their station?

Does the fee Coke pay contribute to NBC's acquisition of content?

How many of the sites you sell traffic from own or create the content on their sites?

Or on a piracy forum how many of the posters own the content they are linking to?
And 1,000s sometimes millions of people are downloading. Which is the traffic you're selling.

How much of what you pay for content goes to the acquisition of content?

My point is, you can't afford to buy the content you rely on to get traffic.

Because it defeats your argument. Of course piracy sites are relevant. They give away free porn, they don't pay for and sell ad space to traffic people.

Which I believe is why so many are against it. Recently a rep of a big cam site was swearing blindly the ads on a piracy site were affiliates. A few emails and I found out the truth. They only sell adverts and don't go the affiliate route. Will Pornhub or any Tube be an affiliate or sell ad space?

I'm off to walk the dog. Waiting for ST23 to say my replies are too long, therefore he thinks they are wrong. It's like saying getting hit with a hammer doesn't count and it's only strikes with a feather that do. :1orglaugh

There has been a music counter revolution, the price of music has fallen and so has the number of bands being signed, the number of albums recorded. If the money does not return to the creative content makers the industry will die. Apple has become rich but they don't make music.

While out walking I was thinking about the effects of a law like SOPA. This is one possibility and makes it clear why so many are against it.

The one thing piracy sites do is generate enormous numbers of traffic. People have said that a Tube is more likely to get a million surfers than a paysite. If the tube is 100% legal and like NBC owns all it's content or the license then fine. If it relies on "user uploads" to get that traffic then it's feeding off the content industry to get traffic to sell and earn a living.

If a person, we will call him Traderstock, after a law like SOPA is passed relies on sites like Tubes who accept "user uploads" he might find himself in the dock. Also this goes for sites buying ad space on sites like.

pornbb.org, Forumophilia which has our friend papillon running it allegedly, dumpstersluts.com, thepornlist.net, porno-maniac, fritchy.com, porn-w.org, and so many more it's staggering. So these Tubes and forums won't have anywhere to link to or be able to use any content they like. They will whither and die. Along with the people leeching off the content, like ad space sellers or traffic guys.

Will it stop free porn? No Manwin and a few others are big enough to buy content, lets face it the cost of content has been driven into the ground. So the places that will benefit are the legal Tubes and legal Forums. They will have to monitor heavily, but the added traffic = profit will soon cover that. Roald will have to employ people to approve every post or filter in the companies that can be talked about and linked to. As most of the file lockers will be long gone, it will be easier.

Traderstock, well he will be between a hard place and a rock.

This post doesn't point fingers at the innocent. The guilty can complain about the wall of text. :1orglaugh

really? proof or ban.

There are more musicians now reaching a larger audience and recording more albums than ever before.

Sure, the big labels that didn't adapt to the revolution are suffering. Boo hoo.

Music is in the best state it's been in for decades creatively as people are empowered to release material without EMI screwing them over.

Mass commercial shitty pop music is finally dying and good quality well written bands and music are doing well better than ever.

You might want more X Factor and boy bands. People with any interest in music, don't

You have proof of that?

Yes, the days of Metallicas are over, the days of Justin Biebers are here.

now paul is trying to get papillon investigated by internet the cyber crimes division and interpol for internet piracy. the man has no shame or morals.

it has by cutting the middle men studio out of the mix

http://www.kickstarter.com/discover/...ic?ref=sidebar

http://i.imgur.com/gGLLV.jpg

Affiliates buy ads too Paul. :1orglaugh

Keep insinuating I run a pirate site Paul. Keep it up.

Yup. It means ANYONE can post some videos and tracks up and become a massive massive success without giving most of their money to Universal for doing not very much.

Good news.

if you were a diy artist or knew any you would know how insanely difficult it is to get through the noise that is out there now. it's fantasy that you just put up your art on youtube and itunes and get noticed. about the same amount of people get "big" off youtube and itunes that did in the record contract era, just the mediums have changed.

how is a musician that doesn't play live or not tour make money now for example.

the new avenues have their own pitfalls, just as many as the old way did.

many artists happily sign with the evil music companies as well when their youtube video gets big enough.

it is a complex phenomenon and both side argue from these ridiculously oversimplified viewpoints it just makes the who discussion useless.

Your side of the debate is losing.

Do you pay towards the content on the sites you buy traffic from?

How do you know none of those sites have pirated content on?

SOPA or a law like it will hit the piracy sites with a sledge hammer. The days of the File lockers and the forums linking to them will be gone. Well lets hope they are. The days of user uploads will largely be over. The big traffic sites will have to rely on content they own, have licensed or very sure the uploader is legit.

This is the same rules that apply to the rest of the world and no law has been passed saying the Internet is exempt of these laws.

So the effect on traffic on the piracy sites, those feeding off them and the surfers will be huge. The traffic will not all disappear. Most will go to places where there's legal content. iTunes, legal DVD stores, legal Tubes. Legal porn Tubes. Which is very likely to be the big guys, Manwin level will be fine. Now with so many people losing out on the cheap traffic, will they give up and do without or will they go to legal Tubes to get traffic. Then what will these sites charge, as they no longer compete with all the piracy porn sites for traffic buyers?

I suspect we will see a hike in the price of traffic. And a lot of traffic sellers unable to get their foot in the door. Maybe some site owners will turn their paysites into free tubes, might be more profitable. Should that happen I might think about it.

Damian the record industry isn't spending a lot of money trying to reduce the piracy of their music, because piracy is bringing them in more money.

The demise of File lockers will be a great opportunity for some bright young thing to show you how wrong this is.

By opening a legal site where bands can promote themselves. You need to think outside your box sometimes to see the opportunities coming. Do you have the money to do this?

I do. :thumbsup

As far as the hip hop industry goes at least, the internet has most definitely made it easier for artists to get their name out to the masses easier, faster, and cheaper. It's not even arguable. Spend like $10,000 or less and you can get a prime spot on worldstarhiphop, datpiff, etc. and reach millions of people instantly and possibly blow up over night. Surely the same can be said for other genres.

can't really think of anything comparable to those sites in other genre's. if there a metal version? dunno.

48 hours or more of material up loaded every minute, the chances of it being found slim to non existent.

You ignore the contribution of the sound engineer, the sound mixer, the soloist musicians hired in, the people who know how to arrange, compose and record music.

A guy on his own on his own computer lacks the knowledge and experience that had been accumulated by an industry.

Yeah I was going to say something like that. The hip hop genre is kind of in a league of its own as far as the mass of legally free music that is posted online daily. I'm really not sure why there aren't similar sites for all other genres? I guess they just do not create the same amount of music and/or don't believe in giving it out for free to get started.

And it was equally hard to get signed to a major.

At least now everyone has a chance.

Well it worked for Beeeeeber.


Yup. And now people don't need to give so much of a % to the majors.


Why would a musician not play live? That's the fun part.


Indeed they do. Can't see anyone suggesting otherwise.


Again, can't see anyone suggesting otherwise.

Most discussions here are useless.

yep now they just give it to apple or amazon.

citation?

Wonder how people manage it then? Magic?

No I don't. I'm trying to explain that people can do all that without a Major sucking away most of their money AND keeping rights to the music.

Possibly, but they have a CHANCE. And they keep all teh cash and the rights and can reach a worldwide audience in seconds.

I don't understand you think that is bad.

https://youtube.com/t/press_statistics


Wonder how people manage it then? Magic?
People win the lottery too, possible does not mean likely.

Yes the have a chance, but a slim one, the big players will make sure that they control the market, using people like you I believe.

I wonder where my video is in the 8 years of video uploaded in one day !!!!!!

http://www.washingtonpost.com/nation...BdQ_story.html

actually it's an hour a second.

Ah, that's videos. Not songs by people trying to make it.

Indeed. But before the internet gave EVERYONE a chance, you only had a chance if you got to a record label, they liked you and they gave you a deal.

Surely as a socialist you see that getting rid of the power of the majors and equaling the playing field is better?

And you don't think people had a slim chance before?

Now they can record and release their own songs, keep the money and the rights. Why is that bad?

Reminds me of people who used to say that the proof that we lived in a democracy was that we could go to Hyde Park Corner and say what whatever we wanted. The fact that your voice would be one amonst many other mad voices and that the only people listening were bemused tourists escaped their logic.

Giving 30% to iTunes for the marketplace they provide is a hell of a lot better than any other first time recording artist deal with a major where they are LOANED the money to record a an album and they have to repay that loan and then they don't own the music anymore.

Yes record companies exploited musicians, but they also brought other things to the table, they took to band to a professional recording studio, they had a professional sound engineer mic up the drums and other instruments. They rehearsed them, recorded them, schooled them, marketed them * (* just for you :-))
They hired in other musicians for different tracks, they produced albums with themes, great photography for the covers and ads, they helped music magazines survive with content.

Freedom, opportunity, education need structure as well as just the freedom to distribute.

You are throwing the baby out with the bathwater.

The new corporations Apple Google Microsoft are just as exploitative and unaccountable.

For this chart - selling an album and a track is not the same thing. Selling a real self pressed album out of your car or whatever, you can only sell to people right there.

On iTunes, with average (and that is the average) of 12 tracks per album, you need to sell 175 albums worth of tracks, and you can sell to anyone at anytime.

There is NO comparison. It is MUCH easier to sell 175 albums online than it is to sell 143 real CDs. If you like the personal approach, you can still tell people to go to iTunes during our set, and yo don't have to be an asshole going around afterwards during the other sets.

And it was impossible to get a contract. Impossible. now merit and marketing are the rules.

Yes but Manwin and the big players will be looking get the most $$$ out of their content once something like ACTA or SOPA is passed. The tube model rose only because it was easy to steal somebodys work and hide behind loopholes. Remove the ability to get free content & make long term profits from stealing content a thing of the past, and most of the problem is solved. Also the file locker / file sharer sites, they are only a result of a temporary situation in the market.

In reality, SOPA or ACTA or whatever will be a game changing turn in the market. Legal tubes exist only because illegal tubes made porn easy to access for free so they had to adapt. Once the pirates finances become an easy target. the legal tube owners may well decide to move to a more profitable model again.

Tubes by themselves are a worthless model when content has to be payed for and can not be pirated without risk. Content costs $$$, hosting costs $$$$, mandatory police-ing of user content will cost $$$$, traffic costs $$$$ so the game will get very very expensive for tubes.

No business in the world can survive by giving away most of its product for free in hopes of the customer buying something down the road. Sure it's not the same in the brick and mortar world and with physical products but the tube model by itself is a fundamentally flawed model that was a result of a temporary anomaly in the market once the market changes the model is not worth shit. Also keep in mind that in the real world they cant steal your stuff and get away with it so the real world will never see a "tube model". I don't care how much new sites/file sharing methods pop up the important thing is the ability to easily take them and their finances down before they mean shit traffic wise.

Again I repeat, people may be used to getting stuff for free but 30-40$ for a membership is not exactly a fortune and the stale free tube crap will not be as appealing when responsibility for content is introduced.

You are a damn fool and SOPA could pass tomorrow without the adult landscape changing.

Content is fucking cheap, no matter what you say or think.

Hosting is extremely fucking cheap, no matter what you say or think.

Policing is a non issue if you purchased the content and disable uploads.

Traffic costs $0 to the big tubes. $0 is pretty fucking cheap.

The level of ignorance displayed here on a daily basis rarely manages to surprise me but this was so fucking LOL that I must say you managed to do it. :thumbsup

No offense but I don't think you have any idea how tubes operate. Sponsors gladly give conent to tubes and in return they get massive sales out of it. :2 cents:

what you mean?

The established tubes have no reason to buy traffic at this point.

There's a huge difference between the way that forums or file sharing sites and tubes operate. They're really not very similar at all.

Tubes make the majority of their money selling memberships. This is not up for debate, it's a simple fact. This means they have to work WITH many of the large adult companies. Where a file hosting site may have an entire site rip for Bang Bros online, because they don't do business with Bang Bros, a tube will have many more smaller clips. Why? Because they're getting paid affiliate commissions from Bang Bros and can't alienate the company. In this case Bang Bros is just an example.

All of you sitting around hoping and dreaming that some piece of legislation is going to come along and get rid of tubes for you had better start thinking up new business plans now.

The Internet is not driven top down but rather bottom up. You can't dictate to surfers how they want to consume content, they're going to dictate to you. If you don't keep up you'll be as extinct in this business as the dinosaur Markham.

Big tubes already have all the traffic, and can easily go legit if not already. Their traffic won't be going anywhere.

:thumbsup:thumbsup

yeah i'm niggling about the no cost part. they spend tons on traffic and seo.

I'm not so sure about that. I can't speak for every site, but one tube site owner I know quite well with a top 500 Alexa tube site spends nothing at all on traffic. Not a damned dime.

well i know their seo teams are very active and buying. also all the up and coming tubes have traffic / affiliate type programs now as well. your friend's is the exception. most have huge budgets to buy traffic and links.

not hating just stating a fact.

Yeah I'm sure the Manwin tubes, for example, do spend quite a bit on SEO. Maybe that's the difference between being an Alexa top 500 and Alexa top 50 site. Might very well be. :thumbsup