Originally Posted by charlie g (Post 18289171)

Paul, I have a ton of respect for your knowledge.

Originally Posted by DamianJ (Post 18289188)

Originally Posted by Roald (Post 18289055)

fuck it, call me a leech or lazy but im not going to debate here with you as you will never agree on anything or believe what I say. So whats the use....

Enjoy your retirement :2 cents:

Originally Posted by charlie g (Post 18289171)

Paul, I have a ton of respect for your work and knowledge. I have lost many litres of bodily fluid admiring your abilities. But free porn was absolutely inevitable. As you stated above, brick and mortar stores had to bring the people in. If they could have posted newspaper adverts with free porn you can bet your ass there would have been a ton of it. No eyes means no sales.

Fast forward to the internet, no clicks mean no sales. If your site has a high bounce rate you are going to do what you must to get the viewers' attention. So in a way, the internet marketers are right- traffic is king.

You are also right in that to convert the traffic, given the state of porn, it must be of quality or at least compelling. But the future of selling porn memberships is probably dead as we know it. Without a certain level of interactiveness no one will pay for porn.

Keep an eye on our friend nathen/fabian to see what he does. I would think a clone or acquisition of a MFC and dating (maybe what's left of FFN after they go belly up) is in the very near future for that network. I can't see him content sharing that pie.

Porn will be used as a value added service, like a condiment to get you in the mood to talk to a "real woman". There will still be a market for producers of pornography... but the salad days are gone forever.

Originally Posted by Roald (Post 18289055)

fuck it, call me a leech or lazy but im not going to debate here with you as you will never agree on anything or believe what I say. So whats the use....

Enjoy your retirement :2 cents:

Originally Posted by Paul Markham (Post 18289833)

Well you ridicule and ignored the problem. Why was that?

I do believe what you say, because what you say backs me up. You have loads of freeloaders on your site like everyone else. Creative marketing people would of seen that 12 years ago and realised it wasn't right. Then fixed it. They would of turned a huge percentage of the freeloaders into customers. Imagine how much money we threw down the toilet. We left so much money on the table, the table collapsed years ago into a flat pancake shape.

We built the freeloaders faster than we built the buyers. Not creative at all.

I've listened to all the bullshit you guys have tripped out for years. Now that bullshit has been realised. But still, instead of people looking at the problem and fixing it, or trying to, they're probably just carrying on until it's not worth carrying on.

You've done little but ridicule me, yet provide no proof I'm wrong, in fact you back up that I'm right.

Originally Posted by Paul Markham (Post 18288829)

He's full of shit, like so many here. The reason he can't sit down with me is he has nothing to tell me. No sig and probably wouldn't survive if it was like the real world. Probably only does survive sucking off the tit of sponsors who provide everything for him.

And that's the problem and has been from the very earliest days.

I suppose sponsors replaced the retail level of offline porn to a large extent. The difference was immense. Shop owners had to get a shop, get it ready for selling, stock it and then make sure people came through the door and actually bought the contents they had on sale. In some cases stock was on sale or return, but not the norm for a new shop.

So the limit of suppliers meant the amount of money they took was fantastic. This is where the big money was made in porn, not in the production. It was the retail that made the money.

Online porn guys knowing so much about online marketing, decided to go a different route. Being an affiliate was made so easy the lazy and leeches could do it. So much money was spent on this side, the actual product suffered, so the entry level for sites was very low. And the market was saturated. With lazy, leeches and low level guys who probably would have problems finding a job.

When you ran your TGP sites, imagine it being 1 of only 100 TGP sites, because the rev share was low and opening a TGP site was a lot tougher. Nothing but the bare minimum was given to you, galleries after 3 months disappeared, they had the minimum of porn on them. So surfers had a lot less free porn to consume and the need to buy was far higher. So instead of 1-"500" surfers converting 1-50 converted. (Numbers to show the principal)

We all know a good gallery with a good spot would burn BW to an extent that it was a major factor. So imagine less surfers and far more sales.

Would you of been good enough to survive in a tougher environment?



Well I'll give you a clue and a challenge.

How many clicks from your site does it take to get a sale?

Let's run a test. I'll put up a sample clip of any mainstream sponsor you wish to choose. I'll sign up as an affiliate. We'll record the views of the post, views of the sample, clicks to the sponsor and conversions. You'll have ALL the takings on the joins. I just want to manage it so I can see the stats.

Maybe you could tell us how much of your traffic it takes to get a sale that way.

10, 100, 1,000, 5,000 ?????????????

Originally Posted by Agent 488 (Post 18289839)

you never listen to anyone, read anything, just blather on for over 15 years now about something you don't understand, spewing nonsense that is completely wrong.

Originally Posted by lazycash (Post 18289908)

You're so far lost Paul, everything you say pertains to the old traditional way of making affiliate sales. Those who adapted left those methods years ago, I'm been doing affiliate sales for 12 years and never had a tgp nor submitted any galleries. I've only promoted cams and dating, 2 niches that have continued to grow every year over the last decade.

I have absolutely zero to gain by giving you any information and frankly judging by your replies, you wouldn't understand much of anything I told you anyway. You keep going with your "the sky is falling" rants because despite your success with content sales, you never figured out how to generate affiliate sales and want to believe everyone else has failed also.

There's no problem to fix, you either figure out how to make a living doing this or you leave cause you can't, its not real complex. You had to leave and now you want to believe that everyone else needs to also because there's no money left to be made, you're wrong.

Originally Posted by Paul Markham (Post 18289945)

So you lied about wishing you could tell me. OK I understand that.

Yes you have left the old traditional way of making affiliate sales. So you're doing something others do or only you? If it's only you, then it's best to keep quiet. If it's you and 100s of others, no point in not telling me as others already know.

Anyway you're jumping in the a discussion that doesn't concern you. Dating and cams isn't about paysites sales falling. And yes they're part of the industry where all sales are falling. Will you be immune to free? No it will hit you soon enough. Free dating sites are the way to go. No porn connections, so advertisers from anywhere can be sold space and girls are more likely to join. Unlike porn connected dating sites, whose promises are lies. Glad to see you part of that.

Web cam will continue, if no one perfects the MFC model.

The sky is falling or haven't you noticed. Not crashing down, just slowly descending.

There's still money to be made, just no where near the scale it was and better than the scale it will be.

Originally Posted by Paul Markham (Post 18289922)

I see maths aren't your strong point.

Join Date: Jun 2001

No one listened to me and now they see so many freeloaders it's starting to really effect their income. Yet still you don't come up with anything solid. What should I read, who should I listen to?

I* do read what people say and mostly it's bullshit. I post people in porn who made far more than online porn guys. and all I get is bullshit. Yes they diversified out of only porn. They had the spare working capital to do that and a solid business.

Adult.com sold for $9 million nice chunk of change but not a big company. You wouldn't of bought a major offline porn company for that. The supposedly biggest porn company today is Manwin. Anyone seen Manwin's audited accounts. Know exactly what it was bought for, know what it's worth today? No, all we got is news reports that Manwin have handed out. Same goes for any other online porn company.

no one knows what Shap got, but if you compare what Lensman go, sold and when with what Shap had and when he sold. I doubt if he got the same. Good luck to him, he got an offer and knew it was time to grab it. But no one knows what it was.

How many online porn companies have gone public and issued shares. That requires audited accounts?

Because without that, the rest is guesswork. At least with these guys we know roughly what they're worth or were. Larry Flynt, Paul Raymond, David Gold, David Sullivan. Is Hefner worth anything today?

Originally Posted by Paul Markham (Post 18289865)

Free porn was inevitable, but not in the quantities we have today. Yes you can give away samples. Like the girl in the supermarket giving out biscuits. What you don't do is give away so many biscuits there's no need to buy. Which we did.

Originally Posted by Paul Markham (Post 18289865)

Today free porn can't be stopped. The pirated stuff will be everywhere soon. In the early days it could of been stopped. And those online would of made so much money they wouldn't care. Robbie wouldn't be bitching about pirated porn. He'd be surfing it from his yacht in the Bahamas. Moored right next to Roald's.

Originally Posted by Paul Markham (Post 18289865)

Paying affiliates 10% max, not giving them tons of free content, tools, hosting, etc. Or doing all the affiliate work in house.

Originally Posted by Paul Markham (Post 18289865)

I suggested that on another board and another poster replied "They couldn't afford TGPs without support and big payout." Imagine that, an Adult Internet without 1,000s of TGP sites with millions of galleries. We would of ground to a halt. :1orglaugh

Originally Posted by Paul Markham (Post 18289865)

But that's the thinking of online porn. They see affiliates as helping sales. I see them giving away free content to take away sales.

Originally Posted by Paul Markham (Post 18289865)

Imagine a business where affiliates can't afford to be the barrier between the surfer and the supplier. I can think creatively enough to imagine how it would work.

Originally Posted by Paul Markham (Post 18289865)

The idea that men wouldn't come looking fr porn is silly and illustrates an ignorance of the porn business.

Originally Posted by charlie g (Post 18290281)

What you are forgetting is the magic of the internet.

Originally Posted by charlie g (Post 18290281)

What you are forgetting is the magic of the internet. It is an instant portal where you can shop at any supermarket in the world. And the most busy supermarkets will be the ones that give the most shit away. It's human nature.




Yes and no. The nature of the business is cannibalistic. To get the sales you must have the traffic, so it couldn't be stopped. The people in the yacht now understand the value of the free porn mentality and have learned to harness the power.




Again, this is/was the eventuality of the business. For programs to get customers through there supermarket doors they HAD to give away enough biscuits. Programs not doing so were losing business to the ones that were. In the early days, the affiliates were the traffic.



Again, this is/was the eventuality of the business. For programs to get customers through there supermarket doors they HAD to give away enough biscuits. Programs not doing so were losing business to the ones that were. In the early days, the affiliates were the traffic.



In the beginning affiliates were the only way to get traffic Paul. The affiliates controlled the traffic and hence the customers. Now programs can generate their own traffic via tubes and the affiliate model is dying.



Me too. We're in that stage of the porn business now. Tubes is the answer and why the affiliate model doesnt make sense. But it still involves giving away copious amounts of porn in the most convenient way possible.




Men are going to come looking for porn in the cheapest most convenient way possible. Those that supply cheap and convenient porn will have the attention of the masses of these men. Therein lies the opportunity for real porn marketeers. Online porn has become like 20th century television.












l

Originally Posted by lazycash (Post 18290168)

Paul, you act like you're telling us all something revolutionary that we don't know. I could bump a 100 threads from 2002-2005 of gfy'ers who bitched and complained about all the free porn being given away on tgps. You're simply repeating the same gripe from guys who just couldn't cut it in this biz. My point is, if you couldn't generate paysite sales, why didn't you try something different? You scoffed at starting a webcam studio when the Squealer approached you years ago, you had your chance and blew it. Free dating has been around as long as paid dating, hell I met my wife on a free dating site in 2001.

The more you talk about the adult online industry, the more clear it becomes how little you know what exactly is going on out there. You are still stuck in your own little bubble and take your own experience with your site and surmise that the same thing must be going on in the entire industry.

Originally Posted by charlie g (Post 18291208)

OK, I am out of the thread. The internet is a numbers game paul. A program owner could hire 3 dozen tgp makers and they still couldn't pull the traffic of a decent affiliate program. You can argue differently but it would be just for the sake of arguing.


good luck:)

Originally Posted by Paul Markham (Post 18291212)

It's not written in stone that the system HAD to be as it was.

Originally Posted by Paul Markham (Post 18291166)

And that's the point. As you say the problem was clear years ago and no one bothered to fix it. In fact they escalated the problem as fast as they could. And now they're paying the price.

Yes I scoffed at starting a web studio. Because I had first hand information of how well they were doing, the amount of work required and the commitment put in by the people who ran web cam studios. The studios were the "content providers" and like other parts of online porn were treated pretty badly. In Brno alone most have closed, the biggest in Prague was doing very badly last I heard. Not even sure if it's still there.

The studios were paid a fraction of what the customer spent, girls were earning very little. SNZY has done well, because he had the money and experience to get it right and I believe his studio is for his sites. Glad you picked up that this was his real reason for seeing me. And probably why I wasn't interested.

I'm not stuck in my bubble. Our content stores sell to other sites, we know custom shooters who shoot for other sites, we know models who work in the industry and agents. I also read the boards, the message as you say has been we give away too much free porn, it was ignored because there was still growth. My point is that growth might of been tan time as much without free porn distracting the potential customers.

Now the ultimate in free porn is Tube sites operating within the law and piracy. Not much we can do about piracy, but Tubes exist because of the massive cost of getting traffic, in my belief a cost that's far to high. That cost has also effected the sites ability to put out a better product.

Here's an estimate. Different people spend different amounts.

50% goes on promotion of the site, traffic. 10% goes on processing. 5% goes on hosting, which is far lower today than it used to be. 10% on offices, admin, programs, design, and everything else. 10% profit.

That leaves 15% of a join for the content of the members area. $4.50 per join. 1,000 members = $4,5000 for content per 1,000 members. That's not the price of one decent BG scene. Maybe 2 GG and 3-4 solo girl scenes. I used the word decent and judged it by what a decent shooter could earn shooting this content in other areas of the business. That cost the industry a lot of money, conversions were hurt and retention was hurt.

Look at it from a different POV. In general web cam girls don't earn well. So you end up with the worse girls giving out a barely good enough performance. That effects your income by less guys falling in love or getting infatuated with a girl. I've had 100s of them on castings and they rarely make it past that level, just not good enough. Yes there are a few who make great money, I'm talking in general.

How many sites can afford to put a model under contract for exclusivity? Like Wicked and others do? How many sites could afford to move up to the top level of producing content? And how many of those who could would.

The cost of traffic was far far too high. It put sponsors in a straight jacket, which led to saturation of sites, sponsors, affiliates and free porn. You think you benefited. Did you? Would you of been better off with a smaller % of commission and a larger turn over?

Less affiliates because the lazy and weak couldn't compete with you, more income because of the higher turn over?

The problem was once you go down the free content route to generate customers to get sign ups to fairly low level sites. The flood gates open. Because it's a lot easier than it should be. The end game is so much spent on traffic people can easily afford to run free porn sites giving away 5-6 minute clips or even full length movies. That's effected everyones income.

This tells you a lot.



Affiliates didn't control traffic in the early days. We built them to a level where they did. All traffic generation could of been done in house by sponsors. Who says TGP sites have to be run by a guy who isn't employed by the sponsors?

Affiliates were only possible because of the "50%" spent on them. Cut that to 10% and the strong survive or the whole culture disappears and the need of porn by men remains. Only way to satisfy that need is by paying to satisfy it.

To figure out how it's done without affiliates needs a little creative thinking. :winkwink:

It's not hard.

Originally Posted by charlie g (Post 18291221)

OK, you pulled me back in.

A program could not have pulled the numbers building their own traffic network that an affiliate program Paul. It would take years to build in house what the affiliate program could produce in a month...

Originally Posted by Alprazolam (Post 18268930)

seriously? this is your attempt at staying relevant? i think that expired 10 years ago dude.

Originally Posted by DamianJ (Post 18291238)

Paul doesn't understand the numbers. He thinks traffic is easy to get and that 100k hits to a sponsor is something so astronomically high he can't imagine it.

And that if a spammer sent an email to them it would cripple the internet.

He said those things.

I don't think he will ever understand your points, he will get frustrated and end up calling you names.

Originally Posted by charlie g (Post 18291292)

Well, I hope you are wrong on the last point. I do have respect for Paul and his accomplishments. Many on GFY post and have done jack-shit-nothing and run him down. But I do happen to respectfully think he is wrong on this point.

Originally Posted by charlie g (Post 18291221)

OK, you pulled me back in.

A program could not have pulled the numbers building their own traffic network that an affiliate program Paul. It would take years to build in house what the affiliate program could produce in a month...

For instance, 35% of the profit of 10,000 signups per month is far better than 80% of the profit from 500 signups per month. Again, the internet is a numbers game.

And, even if the programs had gone the in-house route to marketing... we would still be in the same place we are now.... porn surfers will go where the cheapest and most convenient product can be seen. Programs still would have had to give more free porn to get the market share of surfers.

Originally Posted by charlie g (Post 18291292)

Well, I hope you are wrong on the last point. I do have respect for Paul and his accomplishments. Many on GFY post and have done jack-shit-nothing and run him down. But I do happen to respectfully think he is wrong on this point.

Originally Posted by Paul Markham (Post 18292086)

Today they rule the online porn and it's them sites have to cater to first. Sponsor comes next, to pay for everything and customer third.

Originally Posted by Paul Markham (Post 18292098)

Ask the troll to post the threads where I said it. He's twisting and lying.

Originally Posted by Paul Markham (Post 18292098)

spam Newsgroups. The ratios would scare people today.

Originally Posted by xholly (Post 18293315)

Originally Posted by DamianJ (Post 18293654)

Hang on, only ONE post from Paul Markham on usenet?

Ever?

You don't mean to suggest he was LYING about the amazing ratios he got from promoting porn on a place where people pirate stuff?

No wais!

Originally Posted by Paul Markham (Post 18293681)

No you are lying. Why are you such a liar?

Originally Posted by papill0n (Post 18290236)

who gives a fuck what shap got for his business?

who gives a fuck what manwin is worth ??


how about you worry about your own business

Originally Posted by Paul Markham (Post 18291210)

Who should care what Shap got for his business? Everyone because it's an indication of how the industry is fairing.

Originally Posted by DamianJ (Post 18293953)

Sorry I sussed you out Paul. You must be pissed!

But it's SO SO SO SO EASY to prove I am lying.

All of Usenet is archived.

Post your awesome Usenet marketing posts.

Prove you're right and I am lying. Just pop along to a usenet search engine of your choice and show us your old posts. That got ratios we wouldn't believe.

Of course you can't, because you lied about using Usenet to marketing and get amazing ratios.

Bless you.

It's must be really frustrating for you that I constantly prove you a liar, and you just call me names.

:)

x

http://binsearch.info/?q=%22paul+mar...adv_age=&serve

http://groups.google.com/groups/dir?...ch+for+a+group

That's a search across the entire history of usenet. No mention of you. :D