Smells like fraud, should I pay this guy? - GoFuckYourself.com

pentae · 01-19-2003, 03:08 AM

Received this email back from this guy after receiving very very low traffic, high signups, with high chargebacks from his particular account id. Here's what he came back with.

Quote:

How could all signups but two have been charged back when I have a list of people who are still members? I know this because I talk to these people
on instant messenger to get them to signup and sometimes they forward their confirmation emails to me. I work for 3 other companies and they have
absolutely no problem with the way I generate traffic. I'm sorry people have canceled. It's really no wonder. Your site has been pathetic for a long time.
Who wants to pay to see empty rooms??

The cards people have used to sign up have not been stolen. Obviously that's what these people say to get the chargeback. I'm clearly the thief?
You're funny.
Enough of you threats. Pay me what you owe me or we are going to have some serious problems. You're breaking the law. Either that or prove to me
that my signups were not legit. I have the email addresses of every single person who has signed up for your site because I keep track of all my sales.
I save all of this information.

Maybe my method of generating traffic is not the method you approve of because of the occassional chargebacks, but don't tell me you don't have
TONS of chargebacks anyway. It's not my problem if people do not want to pay for garbage. I expect to be paid promptly or this is going to get ugly. I
DO have a leg to stand on. Even if I can not legally get what I am owed, I will do everything in my power to make sure people know what thieves YOU
ALL are. I have access to a database of almost 8 million emails. That's a lot of people to warn about you guys.

DjSap · 01-19-2003, 03:28 AM

hmm why would a person have access to a list of 8 million emails and be willing to send them info that they propably aren't interested in...that plus the msn thingie says one thing: spammer...fuck him and give me his money...

quiet · 01-19-2003, 03:32 AM

it's a sea of scammers...

pentae · 01-19-2003, 03:37 AM

What is that title given to you when you get over 50 posts or something.. "I have 6 credit cards, each buying a trial signup a day" ?

This guy also signed up a few accounts 'underneath' himself to get referal bonuses, and came back with "oh but its my room mate"

chodadog · 01-19-2003, 03:41 AM

Guy's a scammer. Tell him to go fist himself.

stocktrader23 · 01-19-2003, 03:42 AM

Just a note, I do know people who have signed others up through IM. It usually works out pretty well. Talking to someone on IM isn't actually spam. Maybe he has a transcript of how the transaction takes place.

About 8 million emails. Yes if he spammed that would be a good reason not to pay him. However, why would an email chargeback more than a non email ad? I'm just curious. People are always griping about email ruining the biz etc. I don't get it. I would rather get 100 emails than the popups I go through on most porn sites with spyware, cookies, and the usual.

How much is he owed? If he is serious about suing it could cost you more in the long run. Is it in your TOS that you can cancel an account at your discretion?

I'm not saying he didn't try to scam you. But I'm sure you would have emails from spam complaints if he went that route. He might be trading sign ups with friends however. How low of traffic are you talking about? I convert extremely well and I am sure I have thrown a few flags at sponsors but they have never withheld a check.

Good luck.

stocktrader23 · 01-19-2003, 03:43 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by pentae
What is that title given to you when you get over 50 posts or something.. "I have 6 credit cards, each buying a trial signup a day" ?

This guy also signed up a few accounts 'underneath' himself to get referal bonuses, and came back with "oh but its my room mate"

Now thats a different story. If they are in his name boot his ass. If its a small amount owed you still might want to pay before going to court. Unless its the principal of it.

quiet · 01-19-2003, 03:54 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by stocktrader23
I'm not saying he didn't try to scam you. But I'm sure you would have emails from spam complaints if he went that route.

LOL. i guess you've never heard of candidclicks? huge sponsor, brought to their knees, and temporarily completely shut down, due to a spammer they pissed off...

pentae · 01-19-2003, 04:42 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by stocktrader23
Just a note, I do know people who have signed others up through IM. It usually works out pretty well. Talking to someone on IM isn't actually spam.

About 8 million emails. Yes if he spammed that would be a good reason not to pay him. However, why would an email chargeback more than a non email ad? I'm just curious.

He didnt spam at all.

Quite simply, he received a lot of chargebacks. I think its a fairly open-shut case of him signing up under stolen credit cards and using us as a money fence. The real owners of the cards are charging back.

He seems pretty irate though, doesnt he?

BigFrog · 01-19-2003, 04:45 AM

how many chargebacks are we talking about?

what is the use of paying someone for referral signups when you dont recieve the funds? might be different for you, but i get charged a fee for chargebacks on top of the signup funds being taken away. lots of chargebacks could make a nice dent in my paycheck.

but i do have the option in my program to subtract the signup fee from a referrers payout due to a chargeback. might be something you want to look into. of course, if you didnt have this in ur terms to begin with then i wouldnt recommend doing this.

DaLord · 01-19-2003, 04:52 AM

If it smells like a scam it normally is a scam...

pentae · 01-19-2003, 05:27 AM

A lot of chargebacks. 80%+ of his charges. He claims we received a lot due to our shitty members areas.

I always get very suspicious when people are getting so personal with direct marketing. How do you know if they are saying to the person signing up: "Just sign up for the $1.95 trial, then cancel so you don't rebill" ... etc.

How do you know they are not operating a credit card sweatshop? Chargebacks.. thats all you can really guage this off I suppose.

stocktrader23 · 01-19-2003, 05:52 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by pentae

He didnt spam at all.

Quite simply, he received a lot of chargebacks. I think its a fairly open-shut case of him signing up under stolen credit cards and using us as a money fence. The real owners of the cards are charging back.

He seems pretty irate though, doesnt he?

Yes he seemed irate, lol. Is it possible to call one of the charged back cardholders and see if it was stolen? If he is scamming you it would do some good for everyone to get him out of the system.

QUIET,
Yes I heard of candidclicks but I had no idea it was from a spammer. No wonder you never give our your url on this board.

gothweb · 01-19-2003, 05:54 AM

What basis do you have for withholding payment? The fact that you don't like the results might not be enough. What in your contract with him (or TOS) would give you the power to withhold payment in this case? "I don't like it" isn't really legal grounds. Until you explain it from that angle, my vote is to do the stand-up thing, and pay him.

Gutterboy · 01-19-2003, 05:55 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by pentae
A lot of chargebacks. 80%+ of his charges. He claims we received a lot due to our shitty members areas.

Wow. Unless you have hard evidence of fraud, pay him for the su's that didn't charge back.. fulfill your legal obligations in other words.. then term his ass.

Pointless · 01-19-2003, 06:54 AM

wow alot of chargebacks,

I wouldn't pay the guy a cent....

But with no firm evidence, you could end up with some legal problems.

If the amount owing is small enough just pay the guy and save yourself alot of trouble.

Tipsy · 01-19-2003, 06:59 AM

I'd go woth pay him and can him unless it's a huge amount.

Matt_WildCash · 01-19-2003, 07:14 AM

Its surely not a HUGE amount otherwise his chargebacks would really be a problem to you. BUT 80% chargebacks is WRONG WRONG WRONG! Something is not right there and he is scamming you somehow.

If its not that much and it surely can't be, if it was $2000 worth of signups and 80% chargedback I'd be called the damn police on his ass.

You could consider paying him the left over money that hasn't charged back if you want to keep things peaceful and without having to worry about him bad mouthing your name all over the place.

How much do you own him?

Tipsy · 01-19-2003, 07:16 AM

I should have rephrased mine a little. With 80% chargebacks, by paying him I meant on non-chargebacked sales.

Brown Bear · 01-19-2003, 08:54 AM

Pentae, I think this guy fucked you. I would bet he's a scammer extrodinaire. Nobody generates over 80% chargebacks unless you're only talking about 5 sales and 4 charged back, I could maybe see that happening, but it would be rare. But if it was like 50 sales and 40 charged back, then thats just crap. Pure scam.

FlyingIguana · 01-19-2003, 09:03 AM

how many sign ups are we talking about here? if its over 10, he's most likely doing something pretty weird. if thats the case he won't sue because the dirt on his end will come out.

if its a small amount, pay him and tell him to send his traffic elsewhere.

Paul Markham · 01-19-2003, 09:07 AM

80% of chargebacks is wrong way wrong.

Crescent were not getting that level when they were charging cards after saying it was all free.

80% of people do not check their CC statements that closely.

LiveDose · 01-19-2003, 09:19 AM

smells of something funky.... Why don't you share the ref url with some of the other program owners around here so you can compare notes.

Make sure you keep every single one of his threats on file.

12clicks · 01-19-2003, 09:21 AM

pay him. you don't have thick enough skin to have the rep I own.
Before you know it, the scammers will convince the dumber ones here that YOU are the bad guy.

jammyjenkins · 01-19-2003, 09:28 AM

only 2 didn't charge back?

that means he only signed up 10 total

and if he doesn't like your site, why was he recommending it?

either pay him for the two, or don't pay him at all

View Poll Results: What Should We Do With This Guy?
Don't Pay Him For His Dodgy Traffic	14	51.85%
Pay The Guy-Save The Hassle	8	29.63%
This Thread is Gay	5	18.52%
Voters: 27. You may not vote on this poll

01-19-2003, 03:32 AM	#3
quiet we'll miss you our friend. RIP Industry Role: Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: Fernie, BC Posts: 25,115	it's a sea of scammers... __________________ we'll miss you our friend. RIP

01-19-2003, 03:42 AM	#6
stocktrader23 Let's do some business. Industry Role: Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: The dirty south. Posts: 18,781	Just a note, I do know people who have signed others up through IM. It usually works out pretty well. Talking to someone on IM isn't actually spam. Maybe he has a transcript of how the transaction takes place. About 8 million emails. Yes if he spammed that would be a good reason not to pay him. However, why would an email chargeback more than a non email ad? I'm just curious. People are always griping about email ruining the biz etc. I don't get it. I would rather get 100 emails than the popups I go through on most porn sites with spyware, cookies, and the usual. How much is he owed? If he is serious about suing it could cost you more in the long run. Is it in your TOS that you can cancel an account at your discretion? I'm not saying he didn't try to scam you. But I'm sure you would have emails from spam complaints if he went that route. He might be trading sign ups with friends however. How low of traffic are you talking about? I convert extremely well and I am sure I have thrown a few flags at sponsors but they have never withheld a check. Good luck. __________________ Hands Free Adult - Join Once, Earn For Life "I try to make a habit of bouncing my eyes up to the face of a beautiful woman, and often repeat “not mine” in my head or even verbally. She’s not mine. God has her set aside. She’s not mine. She’s His little girl, and she needs me to fight for her by keeping my eyes where they should be."

01-19-2003, 05:54 AM	#14
gothweb Confirmed User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Back in the USSA Posts: 8,849	What basis do you have for withholding payment? The fact that you don't like the results might not be enough. What in your contract with him (or TOS) would give you the power to withhold payment in this case? "I don't like it" isn't really legal grounds. Until you explain it from that angle, my vote is to do the stand-up thing, and pay him. __________________ Photos by Ian X.: Distinctive photos of goth babes. Blood Money:Your traffic, my sites, our money. MojoHost: Still the best.

01-19-2003, 06:54 AM	#16
Pointless Confirmed User Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Australia Posts: 2,142	wow alot of chargebacks, I wouldn't pay the guy a cent.... But with no firm evidence, you could end up with some legal problems. If the amount owing is small enough just pay the guy and save yourself alot of trouble. __________________ 355 north Adultdatelink.com

01-19-2003, 03:28 AM	#2
DjSap Confirmed User Join Date: Jul 2002 Posts: 3,869	hmm why would a person have access to a list of 8 million emails and be willing to send them info that they propably aren't interested in...that plus the msn thingie says one thing: spammer...fuck him and give me his money...

01-19-2003, 03:37 AM	#4
pentae Confirmed User Industry Role: Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Inconceivable! Posts: 899	What is that title given to you when you get over 50 posts or something.. "I have 6 credit cards, each buying a trial signup a day" ? This guy also signed up a few accounts 'underneath' himself to get referal bonuses, and came back with "oh but its my room mate"

01-19-2003, 03:41 AM	#5
chodadog Confirmed User Join Date: Apr 2002 Posts: 9,736	Guy's a scammer. Tell him to go fist himself.

01-19-2003, 04:45 AM	#10
BigFrog Confirmed User Join Date: Sep 2002 Posts: 2,057	how many chargebacks are we talking about? what is the use of paying someone for referral signups when you dont recieve the funds? might be different for you, but i get charged a fee for chargebacks on top of the signup funds being taken away. lots of chargebacks could make a nice dent in my paycheck. but i do have the option in my program to subtract the signup fee from a referrers payout due to a chargeback. might be something you want to look into. of course, if you didnt have this in ur terms to begin with then i wouldnt recommend doing this.

01-19-2003, 04:52 AM	#11
DaLord Confirmed User Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: Denmark Posts: 3,318	If it smells like a scam it normally is a scam...

01-19-2003, 05:27 AM	#12
pentae Confirmed User Industry Role: Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Inconceivable! Posts: 899	A lot of chargebacks. 80%+ of his charges. He claims we received a lot due to our shitty members areas. I always get very suspicious when people are getting so personal with direct marketing. How do you know if they are saying to the person signing up: "Just sign up for the $1.95 trial, then cancel so you don't rebill" ... etc. How do you know they are not operating a credit card sweatshop? Chargebacks.. thats all you can really guage this off I suppose.

01-19-2003, 06:59 AM	#17
Tipsy Confirmed User Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: See sig Posts: 6,989	I'd go woth pay him and can him unless it's a huge amount. __________________ Ignorance is never bliss.

01-19-2003, 07:14 AM	#18
Matt_WildCash Confirmed User Join Date: Jan 2003 Posts: 1,699	Its surely not a HUGE amount otherwise his chargebacks would really be a problem to you. BUT 80% chargebacks is WRONG WRONG WRONG! Something is not right there and he is scamming you somehow. If its not that much and it surely can't be, if it was $2000 worth of signups and 80% chargedback I'd be called the damn police on his ass. You could consider paying him the left over money that hasn't charged back if you want to keep things peaceful and without having to worry about him bad mouthing your name all over the place. How much do you own him?

01-19-2003, 07:16 AM	#19
Tipsy Confirmed User Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: See sig Posts: 6,989	I should have rephrased mine a little. With 80% chargebacks, by paying him I meant on non-chargebacked sales. __________________ Ignorance is never bliss.

01-19-2003, 08:54 AM	#20
Brown Bear Confirmed User Join Date: May 2002 Posts: 4,982	Pentae, I think this guy fucked you. I would bet he's a scammer extrodinaire. Nobody generates over 80% chargebacks unless you're only talking about 5 sales and 4 charged back, I could maybe see that happening, but it would be rare. But if it was like 50 sales and 40 charged back, then thats just crap. Pure scam. __________________ Surrender all your independent thinking and Click Here for re-programming.

01-19-2003, 09:03 AM	#21
FlyingIguana aspiring banker Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: toronto Posts: 10,870	how many sign ups are we talking about here? if its over 10, he's most likely doing something pretty weird. if thats the case he won't sue because the dirt on his end will come out. if its a small amount, pay him and tell him to send his traffic elsewhere.

01-19-2003, 09:07 AM	#22
Paul Markham Too old to care Industry Role: Join Date: Jun 2001 Location: On the sofa, watching TV or doing my jigsaws. Posts: 52,943	80% of chargebacks is wrong way wrong. Crescent were not getting that level when they were charging cards after saying it was all free. 80% of people do not check their CC statements that closely. __________________ Blowout deal. 880 videos, 2,400 image sets, plus many RAW videos. $500. PM me for a deal. Skype Paulmarkham70

01-19-2003, 09:19 AM	#23
LiveDose Show Yer Tits! Industry Role: Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Somewhere Out there... Posts: 25,792	smells of something funky.... Why don't you share the ref url with some of the other program owners around here so you can compare notes. Make sure you keep every single one of his threats on file. __________________ Scammer Alert: acer19 acer [email protected] [email protected] Money stolen using PayPal

01-19-2003, 09:21 AM	#24
12clicks Too lazy to set a custom title Industry Role: Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: God's right hand Posts: 19,789	pay him. you don't have thick enough skin to have the rep I own. Before you know it, the scammers will convince the dumber ones here that YOU are the bad guy. __________________ I'm not a dinosaur, I'm a crocodile. I've seen dinosaurs come and go and I'm left unimpressed.

01-19-2003, 09:28 AM	#25
jammyjenkins So Fucking Banned Join Date: Feb 2002 Posts: 1,371	only 2 didn't charge back? that means he only signed up 10 total and if he doesn't like your site, why was he recommending it? either pay him for the two, or don't pay him at all