Fact: every single program shaves

[TheDoc]

Don't you guys just love all this love/hate relationship between affiliates and sponsors
WG

50's

Aye, without each other we would all have nothing

[12clicks]

Boy, you're even DUMBER than I though..

Damn..

I'm not the one living with mommy in some south american hole bitching about a $25.00 check that never arrived because you didn't know the number on mommy's hut.

[Dollarmansteve]

Don't you guys just love all this love/hate relationship between affiliates and sponsors
WG

It's a two way street, a symbiotic relationship. Anytime either side loses sight of that, it's a problem. I believe that this thread demonstrates an affiliate losing sight of that relationship...

[rabbit]

What about when an affiliate uses sponsor content to generate SE traffic, and then that SE traffic is sent to another more profitable sponsor? What's that called?

a form of bait and switch?

but your point is what? if some affiliates are dishonest and defraud sponsors, that justifies the sponsor trying to shave and cut all the affiliates out of the revenue loop?

[esnem]

redirecting foreign traffic is shaving

Not if we pay you on those foreign sales.

doing cross-sales is shaving

This is why we paid per sign-up in the first place.

doing up-sells is shaving

This is why we paid per sign-up in the first place.

cookie expiration is shaving

You should do some research into how sessions work. It really depends on how the tracking system is built and how much traffic the program does.

shaving is shaving

While that statement is true, shaving is when a company purposely manipulates data that is being reported to a webmaster in a way that is different from what is disclosed. Monetizing traffic/sales that have been paid for upfront does not qualify as shaving. In other words: 4.95 != $35. Therefore there is a process that must be taken in order for a company to make a profit. This process is not called shaving.

Companies that do not understand this process are either a) broke, or b) poorly ran. I would not want to do business with a company like that.

See you in Vegas buddy

[12clicks]

It's a two way street, a symbiotic relationship. Anytime either side loses sight of that, it's a problem. I believe that this thread demonstrates an affiliate losing sight of that relationship...

ok, I could have said it this way I guess.

[12clicks]

a form of bait and switch?

but your point is what? if some affiliates are dishonest and defraud sponsors, that justifies the sponsor trying to shave and cut all the affiliates out of the revenue loop?

I think what he's saying is that we're mature enough to not call all affiliates thieves because some are.

[Dollarmansteve]

a form of bait and switch?

but your point is what? if some affiliates are dishonest and defraud sponsors, that justifies the sponsor trying to shave and cut all the affiliates out of the revenue loop?

Nope, not my point at all. See my post above - it's a symbiotic relationship.. a partnership. I think as someone who has generated alot of revenue from sponsors over the years, you could hardly say that affiliates are 'cut out of the revenue loop'

Find another industry that shares revenues and profits at levels even approaching the online adult industry.

The sponsor programs have invested millions and millions of dollars in their paysites and have every right to generate profit from their asset. Affiliates are compensated handsomely for bringing customers to the front door.

[2012]

...you're completely missing the point, but ok.

actually I completely get your point. Your missing mine.
i agree if an affiliate starts wagging the dog , ... why is he still an affiliate. why the big disconnect in communication ? why lump all affiliates into that category. Using all the sponsor content on a domain then sending it to another sponsor is fucked

I agree its a two way street, at least it should be.

[BradM]

Why is anyone arguing with 12clicks, he's the dumbest fuck on this entire board.

[Dollarmansteve]

actually I completely get your point. Your missing mine.
i agree if an affiliate starts wagging the dog , ... why is he still an affiliate. why the big disconnect in communication ? why lump all affiliates into that category. Using all the sponsor content on a domain then sending it to another sponsor is fucked

I agree its a two way street, at least it should be.

gotcha

I believe that, all rhetoric aside, the majority of affilaite/sponsor relationships are solid.. that most sponsor programs are trustworthy business partners and vice-versa for affiliates.

I could come on here every day and post a laundry list of fraudsters, cheaters, etc, etc, etc, but it doesn't skew my opinion that 99.99% of affiliates are top notch.

[12clicks]

Why is anyone arguing with 12clicks, he's the dumbest fuck on this entire board.

shouldn't you be out looking for your next job?

[rabbit]

Not if we pay you on those foreign sales.


See you in Vegas buddy

right! and i totally agree that on a PPS program, a lot of things like that are ok. but NOT on revshare. if i get paid 40$ per signup, i dont really care how many upsells are in the member area. but if i'm on revshare, its a different case. the problem is that sponsors offering BOTH PPS and revshare will not have 2 separate member areas...

[Dollarmansteve]

right! and i totally agree that on a PPS program, a lot of things like that are ok. but NOT on revshare. if i get paid 40$ per signup, i dont really care how many upsells are in the member area. but if i'm on revshare, its a different case. the problem is that sponsors offering BOTH PPS and revshare will not have 2 separate member areas...

Maybe it's time for another great PPS vs. Revshare debate on GFY

It's like the adult industry version of Nature vs. Nurture.

You going to be in Vegas?

[Clean_Franck]

LOL @ 1/2dick

could anything he say be more stupid?

[esnem]

right! and i totally agree that on a PPS program, a lot of things like that are ok. but NOT on revshare. if i get paid 40$ per signup, i dont really care how many upsells are in the member area. but if i'm on revshare, its a different case. the problem is that sponsors offering BOTH PPS and revshare will not have 2 separate member areas...

The vast majority of rev share programs have their heads up their asses, plain and simple

[12clicks]

right! and i totally agree that on a PPS program, a lot of things like that are ok.

that doesn't seem to go with this though:

i do understand that pps programs have no choice but shave if they are to offer high payouts...

[BradM]

shouldn't you be out looking for your next job?

That's HONESTLY the best thing you have to say? Really? Come on, you're just getting worse and worse and that's fucking hard because you're already at the bottom.

I INVITE you to sling something else at me, anything. Because "omg u have a job, go l00k for anuther" is a pretty silly insult.

[rabbit]

Maybe it's time for another great PPS vs. Revshare debate on GFY

It's like the adult industry version of Nature vs. Nurture.

You going to be in Vegas?

yes sir... hit me up if you want to meet: 323471980

[12clicks]

LOL @ 1/2dick

could anything he say be more stupid?

yes. this:

[C-Bass]

its funny that people talk about ownership of a surfer. Its like the chicken or the egg debate. That surfer started somewhere, and ended up on your site.....so are you stealing that surfer from someone else? if they came from Google, and then went to another site after yours......are they being stolen from you?

[Oracle Porn]

the only sponsors bitching in this thread are the ones with such shitty ass members areas that getting them reviewed will do more harm then good to them...


just my 2 rubles.

[Oracle Porn]

the only sponsors bitching in this thread are the ones with such shitty ass members areas that getting them reviewed will do more harm then good to them...


just my 2 rubles.

[12clicks]

That's HONESTLY the best thing you have to say? Really? Come on, you're just getting worse and worse and that's fucking hard because you're already at the bottom.

I INVITE you to sling something else at me, anything. Because "omg u have a job, go l00k for anuther" is a pretty silly insult.

no, honestly the best thing I have to say is that every time you explain how dumb I am, the first thing I think of is a comparison of our two lives.
sometimes if I don't catch myself, I giggle like a school girl.

[rabbit]

that doesn't seem to go with this though:

why not? if a program is offering 40$ PPS i totally understand there being upsells, cross-sales etc.- thats part of the way the programs monetize their traffic and that's how they can offer higher payouts.

my whole beef is about all of the above being done on revshare programs/tours/member areas

[Jdoughs]

What about when an affiliate uses sponsor content to generate SE traffic, and then that SE traffic is sent to another more profitable sponsor? What's that called?

ok maybe I should clarify - anything owned by the sponsor program is content... domain names, trademarked words, etc, etc.

When i add sites to my network today, they may recieve hits from serps and caches for a year and a half, long after ive replaced the "non selling shit" with more productive stuff.

And also, when i build a page for instance, for something like "big tits" i may (and have) taken ranks for other terms not even mentioned on my sites. I may advertise big tits round asses and i may rank top 3 for big tit patrol.

Because i rank for Big Tit Patrol, whether i ever promoted them on the site or not isnt really anybodies fault. Thats just how shit happens.

The only way what you are mentioning is bad is if the person deliberately used the site names, and "trademarked words" to rank and THEN send that traffic to other sites.

Now tell me seriously, what kind of fucking idiot would be able to take top spots for your keyterms, then NOT send them to the site they wanted. Its totally ridiculous. If they wanted thisspecialpaysite.com or thesespecialtrademarks.com , it would be totally improfitable to send them elsewhere.

[BradM]

no, honestly the best thing I have to say is that every time you explain how dumb I am, the first thing I think of is a comparison of our two lives.
sometimes if I don't catch myself, I giggle like a school girl.

You have no idea what my personal life is, and I have no idea what yours is. I think YOU are a fucking douche but you may be happy in life. Which is super. I just would rather not be an idiot with a fun life like you.

I have a GREAT life, thanks. You can giggle all you want it just proves YET AGAIN you make assumptions based on things you know NOTHING about.

[12clicks]

why not? if a program is offering 40$ PPS i totally understand there being upsells, cross-sales etc.- thats part of the way the programs monetize their traffic and that's how they can offer higher payouts.

because in your first post you weren't calling it "monetizing" you called it shaving. big difference.

my whole beef is about all of the above being done on revshare programs/tours/member areas

you have a point there.

[12clicks]

You have no idea what my personal life is, and I have no idea what yours is. I think YOU are a fucking douche but you may be happy in life. Which is super. I just would rather not be an idiot with a fun life like you.

I have a GREAT life, thanks. You can giggle all you want it just proves YET AGAIN you make assumptions based on things you know NOTHING about.

trust me son, your bitter little boy act speaks volumes about your personal life.

I assure you, I know exactly what you are.

[pocketkangaroo]

While I don't think 12clicks should have called the owner of one of the most profitible adult sites on the web an idiot, I can see why he'd take some offense to the statement. Shaving to me at least connotates actually stealing sales. Someone sends a company 10, they only count 8. That is what I consider shaving. I don't consider upsells, etc shaving.

And I also think rabbit is primarily talking about revshare programs that do this. There are a lot of them too. They grab a sale and instead of trying to keep them, they pull a ton of shit on the backend that has no benefit to the affiliate. I don't think shaving is the correct term to use though, but I can't think of anything right now. PPS programs are a different beast as once that sale is made, that guy is out of the affiliates hands.

I don't think there is an argument about what is being done, I think the issue is in the use of the word shaving when talking about upsells and such.

[Dollarmansteve]

the only sponsors bitching in this thread are the ones with such shitty ass members areas that getting them reviewed will do more harm then good to them...


just my 2 rubles.

I wouldn't say thats 100% correct. Python.com has worked with Rabbit for a long time and our HD members area gets better every day, not too shabby for an entirely new program that was built from the ground up and launched in just 6 months from idea to live product.

I go back and forth with rabbit all the time, constantly working to improve the business relationship.. sometimes we have big fundamental disagreements.. but we keep on working at it.

[mb]

Happily, I'm one of the rare programs out there that doesn't do any of the things you mentioned. The cookie expires after 6 months... but I think that's quite generous.

marc

http://www.movieroom.com

[commonsense]

This thread has the makings of a GFY classic and likely another bromaster entry for 12clicks.


Rabbit - You have enough clout and quality traffic to just hit up the programs and have them raise your percentage. That is if you feel under compensated. Many small sites rely on those upsells/etc to try and stay in business.

Do you factor those upsells/cross sells into the reviews?

[BradM]

trust me son, your bitter little boy act speaks volumes about your personal life.

I assure you, I know exactly what you are.

Yep... just as I suspected. You have absolutely nothing worthy to say. Thanks for confirming it.

[X37375787]

You guys should see mainstream, its much worse. Adsense ads on landing pages, popups onload for email collection, phone numbers for credit card ordering is the first method of payment, etc...
WG

It is quite pathetic indeed.

[esnem]

Many small sites rely on those upsells/etc to try and stay in business.

The question then becomes, do you want to do business with companies that TRY to stay in business?

[rabbit]

Happily, I'm one of the rare programs out there that doesn't do any of the things you mentioned. The cookie expires after 6 months... but I think that's quite generous.

marc

http://www.movieroom.com

and i give you my respect i think that IS a fair expiry period for cookies, and it is also what i give to rabbitsreviews affiliates

[rabbit]

Do you factor those upsells/cross sells into the reviews?

never. some of our highest rated sites are sadly also the worst converting. When things like that happen i try to work with the sponsor on a case-by-case basis to see what we can improve that will help us both make more money.

even though we do have volume, we're also pushing over 1000 different sponsors. unfortunately i dont have enough clout with all of them

[rabbit]

you have a point there.

that was my point all along, but you got distracted by the screaming headline... which was afterall my intention

[WiredGuy]

its funny that people talk about ownership of a surfer. Its like the chicken or the egg debate. That surfer started somewhere, and ended up on your site.....so are you stealing that surfer from someone else? if they came from Google, and then went to another site after yours......are they being stolen from you?

I don't give them that choice ;)
WG

[rabbit]

the only sponsors bitching in this thread are the ones with such shitty ass members areas that getting them reviewed will do more harm then good to them...


just my 2 rubles.

i keep saying this, but even the shittiest sites that get the worst reviews still get sales.

[brand0n]

You guys should see mainstream, its much worse. Adsense ads on landing pages, popups onload for email collection, phone numbers for credit card ordering is the first method of payment, etc...
WG

i was told by this company that they "scrub" 20% right off the top for fraud protection. i laughed, told the guy i do a lot of adult, and told him in this industry we call it "shaving"

we settled outta court with a 10% "scrub" as honestly.. its kinda what im used to from this end anyways.

[charlie g]

fact: every single program shaves


I got your point. You called all of your present and future employers thieves.
I take exception to that.

Wow. You think of your affiliates as employees? I am absolutely speechless that you would admit thinking this way. I can tell by the tone of your posts you are an asshat, but that attitude won't win you many new "employees". Of course you sound so smart you've probably already calculated the cost of being ignorant on the largest webmaster board. Goodluck with that.

[xxxRumor]

Why do some programs only offer rev-share anyways? Is it really so fucking hard to calculate a present value of an average sign up? This way all the xsells etc are not an issue. If a program advertises 50% rev share you should pay 50% on everything xsells, upsells, life-time re-bills...

[jscott]

not really... i'd do business with anyone that will make me money... but im baffled as to how name calling would benefit anyone, unless you're pimpdog and thats your whole strategy

rabbit, you have to understand that name calling and insults is a common thing to do by most long-term members over at "that other board", it's usually done with no reason too

and if/when you stand up against it, you will be bashed even more

[aerovive]

Interesting thoughts...

[NinjaSteve]

redirecting foreign traffic is shaving
doing cross-sales is shaving
doing up-sells is shaving
cookie expiration is shaving

I'm not saying I like these things but we have to have a definition of a word. Shaving to me is not giving you credit or removing credit for sales you've made to the join form. The sales you're supposed to get credit for which you are told about when you join the program. Cross sales and upsells are not shaving. Redirecting foreign traffic to a place you don't get credit for is just that, not giving you credit for that traffic. Cookie expiration should be set way into the future but having one expire is not shaving.

[Kelli58]

fact: every single program shaves

Not all, but with more than 10 years experience I can say most of them in fact do shave ... just some worse than others.

What we as an industry have come to accept as standard adult business practices are in fact very shady and what I consider far from acceptable.

If you want me to be fair and honest about doing business with you, I expect the very same thing from you.

I think that if a company gives FOR ANY reason doesn't give you credit for the traffic you sent them, it's fraud. Call it shaving or whatever you want, but in the end it's fraud. Up sells, redirection of foreign traffic - any and all of that is shady, shady, shady.

As for cookie expiration, if the company has told you in advance the cookie will expire in say X amount of time, then I think that's more than fair. As long you know in advance, it's not unethical to me.

[datatank]

50's

Aye, without each other we would all have nothing

Speak for yourself

[Dollarmansteve]

I think that if a company gives FOR ANY reason doesn't give you credit for the traffic you sent them, it's fraud. Call it shaving or whatever you want, but in the end it's fraud. Up sells, redirection of foreign traffic - any and all of that is shady, shady, shady.

I vehemently disagree that a program, revshare or PPS, would credit an affiliate for an up-sell sale. An upsell defined as a product/service sold in the members area of a paysite. (excluding 'free'-type email and other programs that are base a payout on an assumed upsell, ie wegcash join4free)

The affiliate program owns that members area 100% and has invested 100% of the capital to produce and maintain that asset. The affiliate has absolutey no ownership of the members area and in no way should receive $$ from up-sells. If a program decides to do so, that's their perogative, but it shouldn't be assumed.

When affiliates start paying bills associated with the members area, then they can lay claim to the revenue.

How many affiliates would pony up $50k, $100k, or $500k. $2M to invest into a members area for a share of the revenue??? That is what members' areas cost - upsells are a reward that the sponsor program earns for assuming 100% of the investment risk, the transaction risk, etc.

It's time that the word "partnership" means just that - Affiliate programs do not exist to provide a handout to webmasters. The capitalist system is based on the ability of agents (individuals/companies) to earn a profit from the assumption of risk. Until an affiliate participates in the risk, they should not participate in the reward.

/rant.