Moral Question

[Rochard]

If you start start service with a company - say a landscaper at your home - and after six months of service you notice they haven't billed you.... What would you do?

[popawoody]

If you start start service with a company - say a landscaper at your home - and after six months of service you notice they haven't billed you.... What would you do?

Pay the man his money, you will feel better about the deal in the end.

[EddyTheDog]

If you start start service with a company - say a landscaper at your home - and after six months of service you notice they haven't billed you.... What would you do?

That's a hard one - Is the LandScaper a big national or a guy with a lawnmower?..

I lived in a flat in London for 5 years and never paid a gas bill - I took it over from a guy who had not paid it for a lot longer than that - I will admit I occasionally woke up worrying about it.....


A landscaper is a bit different - Karma is a bitch - Pay it - Possibly...

[seeandsee]

Pay the man! I bet i would do that.

[nexcom28]

Some companies are so stupid. How can you go 6 months and not get paid?

True story.
My Dad once employed someone to put a new window in the side of his house. The guy came and measured up. The work included installing a new window, and decorating. The quote wasn't peanuts.

Anyway, the guy came and did the job. Was there about 4 full days.

As the guy completed my Dad asked how he wanted to be paid. Cash he said and I will call and collect.
A couple of weeks passed and he never came so my Dad called him up and asked him to call round for payment.
Another couple of weeks passed and he had still not seen the builder so he called him up again and again..

This went on for almost 6 months until my Dad just stopped calling. The guy never came to collect his money.

[Rochard]

That's a hard one - Is the LandScaper a big national or a guy with a lawnmower?..

In this case it's not a landscaper, just an an example....

We did have the same issue with our landscaper when we first moved here. We had multiple houses, multiple landscapers, and every month we paid "multiple landscapers" just never noticed we weren't paying the one for the house here in California. This went on for three years; They added us to the route to be serviced but not the billing. When we figured it out we brought it to their attention and it turns out it was a huge company.... The general manager was a complete and utter dick - I was pissed. They would have cut my grass until the end of time if I didn't tell them they weren't billing me. They stopped service the following week, and the more we emailed each other the more hostile he got. I dragged it out as long as possible just to fuck with him because I can be a dick too.

[SilentKnight]

I'd pay the guy.

Fair's fair.

[EddyTheDog]

In this case it's not a landscaper, just an an example....

We did have the same issue with our landscaper when we first moved here. We had multiple houses, multiple landscapers, and every month we paid "multiple landscapers" just never noticed we weren't paying the one for the house here in California. This went on for three years; They added us to the route to be serviced but not the billing. When we figured it out we brought it to their attention and it turns out it was a huge company.... The general manager was a complete and utter dick - I was pissed. They would have cut my grass until the end of time if I didn't tell them they weren't billing me. They stopped service the following week, and the more we emailed each other the more hostile he got. I dragged it out as long as possible just to fuck with him because I can be a dick too.

It was a funny story with that gas bill as well - I knew the guy who had the flat before us - He was an old fashioned gentleman - He called the gas company so many times and practically begged them to take his money - They point blank refused...

I wasn't so charitable - The couple who took it from us still live there 15 years later - They still have free gas - I see them regularly.....

[Sly]

I had no idea that paying someone what they were owed was such a dilemma. Having this question alone already shows where morals lie.

[woj]

That's a hard one - Is the LandScaper a big national or a guy with a lawnmower?..

what difference does it make? so when company is over certain size it somehow becomes ok to fuck them over?

[Sly]

That's a hard one - Is the LandScaper a big national or a guy with a lawnmower?..

You just spent several posts arguing with 12clicks in regards to whether or not he screwed people over. And here you are saying that if the other guy is rich, sure, screw him over?

[kane]

I would pay them, or at least tell them I hadn't gotten a recent bill so they could go back and check their mistake.

Many years (back in about 2000 or 2001) I signed up with a hosting company that never billed me. I contacted them a few times and asked about the bill and they said they would get back to me. After 4-5 months of me contacting them at least twice a month I gave up. I had sites on their network for about 2 years before they went out of business.

It didn't shock me that they went under. I tried to pay them and they wouldn't take my money.

[EddyTheDog]

I had no idea that paying someone what they were owed was such a dilemma. Having this question alone already shows where morals lie.

You would be amazed how many big companies refuse to take your money - I had a credit card and they misspelled my name - Because I could not prove that I was DamiEn and not DamiAn it went all sorts of fucked up - I never did pay it...

[EddyTheDog]

You just spent several posts arguing with 12clicks in regards to whether or not he screwed people over. And here you are saying that if the other guy is rich, sure, screw him over?

Sometimes you have to use judgement - Are they just being stupid - If they are a big company that are being stupid because they are too big to manage then fuck them - They would do it to you in a blink of an eye...

Comparing that to 12Clicks is ridiculous - The guy is a scavenger preying on individuals weaknesses...

[Sly]

Sometimes you have to use judgement - Are they just being stupid - If they are a big company that are being stupid because they are too big to manage then fuck them - They would do it to you in a blink of an eye...

Comparing that to 12Clicks is ridiculous - The guy is a scavenger preying on individuals weaknesses...

Your argument is the following: 12clicks is evil because he takes advantage of those too stupid to know better. You are not evil because the other party is too stupid to charge you.

And you don't see the correlation. Shocking.

[TheSquealer]

If you start start service with a company - say a landscaper at your home - and after six months of service you notice they haven't billed you.... What would you do?

If the obvious answer isn't "do the right thing" then its clear where the problem is in this equation.

[shake]

I've had this problem with my propane company. It is a huge hassle to track them down to pay the bill, then when I finally do pay, they start telling me the previous paid one is overdue and such. I'm about to switch companies because of it.

[EddyTheDog]

Your argument is the following: 12clicks is evil because he takes advantage of those too stupid to know better. You are not evil because the other party is too stupid to charge you.

And you don't see the correlation. Shocking.

That's the simplistic answer - 1+1=2 - Its a great way of making a point but not always accurate because the equation is not always that simple in real life...

[SilentKnight]

That's the simplistic answer - 1+1=2 - Its a great way of making a point but not always accurate because the equation is not always that simple in real life...

Basic ethics are rather simple. Either you're honest...or not.

I think Sly makes a good point.

[EddyTheDog]

Basic ethics are rather simple. Either you're honest...or not.

I think Sly makes a good point.

So 100% honesty is the way to go - Even Jesus thinks that's BS - 'Let he without sin cast the first stone' - Or something like that...

It might not have even been Jesus - You know what I mean though.....

[Rochard]

You would be amazed how many big companies refuse to take your money - I had a credit card and they misspelled my name - Because I could not prove that I was DamiEn and not DamiAn it went all sorts of fucked up - I never did pay it...

Monday I sent out two dozen emails to Dating Factory affilaites that are due a payment, but haven't filled in their billing details. To date only one of them got back me.

[SilentKnight]

So 100% honesty is the way to go - Even Jesus thinks that's BS - 'Let he without sin cast the first stone' - Or something like that...

It might not have even been Jesus - You know what I mean though.....

I've always maintained that honesty is the best policy, yes.

Jesus? Jesus? (sorry, the reference is lost on this atheist...but I get the antiquated proverb you were aiming for).

But this wasn't as much about honesty vs. dishonesty - but the rather apparent contradiction Sly was pointing out.

All due respect...you're a good guy and all - just having a little fun watchin' you squirm on this one.

[EddyTheDog]

I've always maintained that honesty is the best policy, yes.

Jesus? Jesus? (sorry, the reference is lost on this atheist...but I get the antiquated proverb you were aiming for).

But this wasn't as much about honesty vs. dishonesty - but the rather apparent contradiction Sly was pointing out.

All due respect...you're a good guy and all - just having a little fun watchin' you squirm on this one.

OK - I'm a hypocrite - I admit it...

I knew I was going to lose this battle - .....

[Sly]

OK - I'm a hypocrite - I admit it...

I knew I was going to lose this battle - .....

You are. You argue with those that you believe are thieves, yet you feel it's okay for you to be a thief so long as it fits within your view. For all you know, that payment that you didn't want to pay because the rich guys already have enough money, could be the payment that gets somebody fired.

How does that fit in with your view?

[deltav]

ETD PWNED.

But yeah, pay the mofos their money big company or small.

[SilentKnight]

OK - I'm a hypocrite - I admit it...

I knew I was going to lose this battle - .....

I'm quite sure I have a few hypocrisies in my own inventory of opinions and statements over the years.

At least you honestly admit to it.

[mineistaken]

I have one hosting company not billing for months, I notified them, they said "ok we will fix the issue and bill you", but nothing.
It seems like they are concentrating on their new venture (other hosting company) and deserted this one, although they still reply to tickets (which you must submit through their new company as primary company's ticket system is broken).
My account their is only few bucks a months there though.

[mikesouth]

You pay him...its the right thing to do and you dont need the karma

not paying him puts you in the same category of scumbags as Fabian, Bob Rice, Feras Antoon, and that lot...

if they did a good job and yer happy with it you pay em

[Jel]

intradesting thought processes here. How many in this thread have EVER torrented a movie? Ripped a song from youtube and burned it to a cd?

How many of those same people (ie everyone) would rob £10 off a granny?

I torrent films/music all the time, and don't feel even the slightest bit guilty. I'd chase/pay the guy who did some landscaping for me every time. I'd fuck over British Gas or Thames Water every time if I could, and lose zero sleep over it. I'm practically begging a coder, 4 weeks after he did a job for me, to send me an invoice for $50 so I can tip him. I would feel no guilt whatsoever if I didn't pay Sky for years but still got all their channels. And so on

[EddyTheDog]

...I'd fuck over British Gas...

Thank god for that - I was thinking about writing a letter and confessing my sins...

[InfoGuy]

Monday I sent out two dozen emails to Dating Factory affilaites that are due a payment, but haven't filled in their billing details. To date only one of them got back me.

Since you bring up payments, why doesn't DatingFactory.us offer checks as an option?

[Rochard]

intradesting thought processes here. How many in this thread have EVER torrented a movie? Ripped a song from youtube and burned it to a cd?

I've never done that.

The only songs I've ever downloaded have been through Rhapsody or iTunes; I was very late to transition over to digital music and when I did I ripped my 500+ CD collection so that gave me a huge start. From there buying music was no big deal at .99 cents each.

The only movies I've ever downloaded have been to my Kindle using Amazon, and I just recently signed up for Netflix.

[Rochard]

Since you bring up payments, why doesn't DatingFactory.us offer checks as an option?

Dating Factory is located in the UK, and the accounting office cuts the checks. They would come from the UK which take a long time. In the event there is an issue, checks would have be returned to the UK, and then a new check issued.... It will take forever.

Paypal and bank wire are the way to go.

[Rochard]

Here is another example... When I bought my house I went to have the power turned on in my name. I gave them my address and it turns out they had no such address in their system. It took us months to figure it out... My house was a model home, and was built before there the streets were named. The power to the house was turned on under a corporate account listed in Sacramento.

I'm guessing I could have left the power on in their name and no one would have been any wiser.

[Jel]

I've never done that.

The only songs I've ever downloaded have been through Rhapsody or iTunes; I was very late to transition over to digital music and when I did I ripped my 500+ CD collection so that gave me a huge start. From there buying music was no big deal at .99 cents each.

The only movies I've ever downloaded have been to my Kindle using Amazon, and I just recently signed up for Netflix.

ok how about:

watched a copyrighted show/clip on youtube or listened to a copyrighted song on youtube
used a cracked software version
watched a copyrighted porn scene on a porn tube
kept the over-change in a store
kept quiet/didn't go back knowing you were under-charged in a store
gone home from work early/arrived at work late/took a longer break than entitled to
declared less than every penny earned to the taxman

[AmeliaG]

In this case it's not a landscaper, just an an example....

We did have the same issue with our landscaper when we first moved here. We had multiple houses, multiple landscapers, and every month we paid "multiple landscapers" just never noticed we weren't paying the one for the house here in California. This went on for three years; They added us to the route to be serviced but not the billing. When we figured it out we brought it to their attention and it turns out it was a huge company.... The general manager was a complete and utter dick - I was pissed. They would have cut my grass until the end of time if I didn't tell them they weren't billing me. They stopped service the following week, and the more we emailed each other the more hostile he got. I dragged it out as long as possible just to fuck with him because I can be a dick too.

Sucks when you do the right thing and the world does not give you back the goodness you deserve.

I don't think there is a huge difference between a big company and a small one, in this scenario, other than that sometimes a small one will appreciate your honesty more, while a lone employee at a big one might just be peeved that he had to do paperwork or you showed up his mistake.

[GregE]

ok how about:

watched a copyrighted show/clip on youtube or listened to a copyrighted song on youtube
used a cracked software version
watched a copyrighted porn scene on a porn tube
kept the over-change in a store
kept quiet/didn't go back knowing you were under-charged in a store
gone home from work early/arrived at work late/took a longer break than entitled to
declared less than every penny earned to the taxman

Or promised that you wouldn't come in her mouth.

[EddyTheDog]

....while a lone employee at a big one might just be peeved that he had to do paperwork or you showed up his mistake.

Shit, I could have spun that argument and taken the round...

Next time.....

[Bourke]

Always remember that when a big company takes a hit, THEY never take the hit. They pass it on down the line. Some sub contracting wage slave (cleaning crew, lunch ladies or whatever) gets their hours cut. Shareholders and CEO's dont lose out. Some smaller fish gets fucked.
Last big film I was on almost every department lost hours or lost staff because funding was reduced because it was expected to not make as much money because of piracy. Company passed that shit on, they still made their money while the crew all had less work than what they signed on for. I said no to a European tour for that fucking film.
Big company or small, make every effort to pay the man. If they go out of their way to make it hard for you to do that... well, fuck em.

[CurrentlySober]

Even Jesus thinks that's BS....

Was Jesus the name of the Landscaper, and was he perhaps Mexican by any chance???

[woj]

ok how about:

watched a copyrighted show/clip on youtube or listened to a copyrighted song on youtube
used a cracked software version
watched a copyrighted porn scene on a porn tube
kept the over-change in a store
kept quiet/didn't go back knowing you were under-charged in a store
gone home from work early/arrived at work late/took a longer break than entitled to
declared less than every penny earned to the taxman

one should know damn well what's "right"... there is never any moral dilemma in those situations (unless you ask 12 year olds on a pro-piracy board )... there is no "but this company is huge or I don't like them for whatever reason, so I can steal from them" or some other bullshit excuse...

if there is nothing wrong with stealing from someone more wealthy than you, then by same logic it would be completely acceptable for a homeless guy to steal from you, no? after all you are much more wealthy than him?

[Jel]

one should know damn well what's "right"... there is never any moral dilemma in those situations (unless you ask 12 year olds on a pro-piracy board )... there is no "but this company is huge or I don't like them for whatever reason, so I can steal from them" or some other bullshit excuse...

if there is nothing wrong with stealing from someone more wealthy than you, then by same logic it would be completely acceptable for a homeless guy to steal from you, no? after all you are much more wealthy than him?

I agree, one should know what's right - but not everything is black & white. More often than not it boils down to how one feels, and the fact is, though most of us 'feel' the same morals generally, morals aren't a 1+1=2 kind of thing. As my earlier posts were trying to show, though obviously not very well

so, moving on... I didn't say there was nothing wrong with stealing from someone more wealthy than me, in fact I never said there was nothing wrong with stealing at all, nor did I even hint that there was nothing wrong it. But........ it *would* be acceptable for a homeless man to steal from me, yes. I would 100%, unequivocally understand that guy's viewpoint, desperation, and so on. I wouldn't *like* it, obviously, but I'm sure the homeless guy would not feel too bad about it, and fair play to him.

Now, if it were a career criminal, I'd be far more pissed off - why? I have no idea. Well actually tht's not strictly true, but I can't be bothered to do an in-depth post about it, this post as it is, is one of my lengthier ones

Like I said - morals are most definitely not a this is black, that is white situation, and there are millions of shades in between

[Grapesoda]

If you start start service with a company - say a landscaper at your home - and after six months of service you notice they haven't billed you.... What would you do?

note to self: don't do biz with rockhard

[woj]

so, moving on... I didn't say there was nothing wrong with stealing from someone more wealthy than me, in fact I never said there was nothing wrong with stealing at all, nor did I even hint that there was nothing wrong it. But........ it *would* be acceptable for a homeless man to steal from me, yes. I would 100%, unequivocally understand that guy's viewpoint, desperation, and so on. I wouldn't *like* it, obviously, but I'm sure the homeless guy would not feel too bad about it, and fair play to him.

you are right, you never said that, didn't mean to direct it at you... but the vibe in this thread is that it somehow makes a difference when deciding moral issues whether the other party is rich or poor... so I threw in that analogy as a general comment, not necessarily directed at you...

I'm not sure I agree with you about the homeless guy though... I would understand it too and it makes sense, but I wouldn't say that it's "right" for him to do that...

[CaptainHowdy]

Pay your debts ...

[Jel]

you are right, you never said that, didn't mean to direct at you... but the vibe in this thread is that it somehow makes a difference when deciding moral issues whether the other party is rich or poor... so I threw in that analogy as a general comment, not necessarily directed at you...

I'm not sure I agree with you about the homeless guy though... I would understand it too and it makes sense, but I wouldn't say that it's "right" for him to do that...

no worries, I guessed as much but wasn't sure

And I agree it still isn't 'right' but his morals at that time, being in his situation, would make it ok *for him* morally. Later on he may deeply regret it, and his morals may change drastically as his personal situation does. Which is what I'm getting at with morals not only being subjective to each individual, but also not a yes/no, 1+1 =2, or whatever, 'thing'.

2 things here, in the interests of being transparent:

1. I was homeless at 16/17 years old, and was
a) too young to receive any gov't benefits
b) a single male with no dependants = zero and yes really zero, chance of any help getting housed

I had no money for food, no money for shelter. I stole from shops, I burgled houses, I stole from cars. I didn't like it, because obviously it wasn't 'right', as you correctly point out, but I was ok morally with it *at that time* because fuck, you gotta eat. And at 16/17 you don't have the life experience to know about food handouts etc. Sorted myself out by the time I was 19 and had genuine remorse at what I'd put homeowners through, despite the self-righteous cunts who give it 'you aren't sorry, you're just sorry you were caught', but that's a different thread.

So in my experience, morals are definitely subjective, whether it be age, circumstance, or just a different viewpoint

2. holy shit I've actually forgotten. I'll come back to that if I remember. Fuck, being over 40 sucks

[Jel]

ok I remembered #2 lol

2. I have my own weird sense of justice. Huge companies like british gas, thames water, Sky - these companies fuck people over all the time, so if I can fuck them over if the chance ever arises - and I mean if the example Eddy gave arose, not actively looking for an opportunity to do so - I'll have no moral dilemma whatsoever about doing so.

Now, I still know that would be 'wrong', but morally I'd be fine and sleep at nights with no worries at all. Is it an excuse? Maybe it is, but it ticks all the boxes for me, in those specific situations. Would I fuck someone (or to be more accurate, a company) just because they have more money than me? Nope not in a million years, my personal morals say that's no justification at all for such behaviour. I'll fuck over the over fuckers (whut?) though, any old time

[SilentKnight]

A local gas station just up the street is always the first one to jack their prices whenever there's a gas hike. And they're usually the last one to come down in price when every other station in town drops.

A few weeks ago I stopped in for gas - and filled my tank. Most times I avoid the place just on principle. But it's on my way home, and at the time they were the same price as all the other stations.

I put $80 bucks worth in the tank. When I went inside to pay for it, the guy at the counter tells me he accidentally reset the pump and asked me how much I put in.

I told him $80 and paid for it.

As I walked out the door, a guy in line behind me says, "Should've just told him $20 bucks."

He was likely thinking - fuck them...big gas companies rip us off all the time.

And he'd be partially correct. But gas stations are independently owned (under contract) - and the profit margin (to the owner) on fuel is so small that most have to rely on either a store kiosk selling convenience items, a car wash...or some other service/product.

I'll admit - I'm no saint. And quite honestly I was tempted to say a very low amount to the guy at the counter. But I didn't. I'm really not sure why. Perhaps its that little voice in the back of my head that says, "You took the high road and kept it honest. You didn't sink to their level."

[CaptainHowdy]

I had no idea that paying someone what they were owed was such a dilemma. Having this question alone already shows where morals lie.

I believe it's all on the spirit of controversy, that's all...

[Rochard]

watched a copyrighted show/clip on youtube or listened to a copyrighted song on youtube

Not sure. I don't tend to check who owns a copyrighted song, and if I did, I wouldn't know who legally owned it.

Kidrock used to crack me up. He wouldn't let me buy his music on Rhapsody and bitched about people downloading his songs for free, yet he put them up on Youtube.

used a cracked software version

Nope.

watched a copyrighted porn scene on a porn tube

I don't spend much time surfing tube sites, no less surfing porn sites. When I do it's to grab content.

kept quiet/didn't go back knowing you were under-charged in a store

I'm sure I've done that once or twice.

gone home from work early/arrived at work late/took a longer break than entitled to

It all comes out in the wash. I took off early yesterday, but I'll be working this morning and Sunday so whatever. I'll also be on the road for the next two weeks too.

declared less than every penny earned to the taxman

LOL. No comment.